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Link Posted: 3/16/2010 7:25:53 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Star Fighter Pilots are just pawns. Real men ride in style:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/2/20/SW_Executor_01.jpg  


Link Posted: 3/16/2010 7:27:51 PM EDT
[#2]
The star fury would own both!
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 7:41:15 PM EDT
[#3]







Chiggy Von Richthoven will win.





CJ
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 8:00:23 PM EDT
[#4]
Are you guys serious?!?!   Who gives a shit?  I'm sure once I turned 15 it became a non issue to me.
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 8:02:42 PM EDT
[#5]
Your Hot !!!



Quoted:



Dorks are hot.

 
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 8:04:50 PM EDT
[#6]
Colonial Viper FTW
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 8:11:20 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Are you guys serious?!?!   Who gives a shit?  I'm sure once I turned 15 it became a non issue to me.


Two mouse clicks and about 75 keyboard presses for something you don't give a shit about.  
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 8:11:21 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Tie Defender. I flew one of those back in '94-95. It had better shields then all the rebel craft, which went a long way with us pilots. Plus having two separate hard points with the ability to carry a shit ton of concussion missiles or balance with proton torpedoes was nice. Factor in that you could do long bombing runs by dumping all your residual power from shield and blasters to over torque the P-sz9.7 engines and deliver proton bombs at nearly 200! Then throw in the twin ion cannons and quad blasters an you could singlehandedly disable capital ships.

Damn bantha-counters screwed the program. Who cared if they cost 300,000 credits each! So what if it was 5x the cost of a regular tie. Can a regular tie face down a victory class star destroyer and survive while disabling it's sublight engines while the interdictor holds them in place. Only complaint I ever had was the hyperspace engine. We didn't need it. a jump of more than a parsec was cruel and unusual punishment and severely degraded pilot performance. We were always based out of a cruiser or larger anyway. That could have saved a few credits.

I miss the old girl.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/d/d6/Defhanger.jpg


All that fits in a tight little package too.  B-Wing power in an A-Wing package.
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 8:19:45 PM EDT
[#9]





Quoted:


.   Only Space: Above and Beyond   even came CLOSE to getting that right,  with fighter maneuvering sequences based on zero gravity, zero atmosphere ballistics rather than aerodynamic principles.





You do NOT bank to turn in space.   You orient for Gs to be exerted in the axis you want them to be,  but you don't bank turns!  
CJ


The Starfury from Babylon 5 was pretty realistic.







 
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 8:28:59 PM EDT
[#10]
Not a fighter, but the Sun Crusher can just ram either out of the sky.  Oh, and destroy entire systems as well.  Pwned.
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 8:34:39 PM EDT
[#11]
Tie fighter flown by Vader.
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 8:42:15 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Are you guys serious?!?!   Who gives a shit?  I'm sure once I turned 15 it became a non issue to me.


So you turned into an unimaginative outcast at the age of 15?
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 8:45:28 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
When in the hell are they going to re-release the Xwing and Tie Fighter series to work on newer computers?  I would be all over buying and playing them again.

A-wing would have been the better head to head for this poll.


I heard a couple months back Lucas Arts is thinking of making a rerelease.

TIE Defender ftw
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 8:47:44 PM EDT
[#14]
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 8:53:47 PM EDT
[#15]



Link Posted: 3/16/2010 8:57:42 PM EDT
[#16]
There was a decently cheesy X-Box original BSG game.  I just came across the PC version of the game on the Internets, as well.
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 8:59:11 PM EDT
[#17]
Though not a fighter, I'll take an Atlantean Puddle jumper.  Drones, cloaking field, can be modified to have a hyper drive and the cloak generator can be modified to generate shields for a short period of time.





Of course, if we are talking big ships, I'll take the Andromeda Ascendant.  Me likey some Rommie.





 
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 9:01:47 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Though not a fighter, I'll take an Atlantean Puddle jumper.  Drones, cloaking field, can be modified to have a hyper drive and the cloak generator can be modified to generate shields for a short period of time.


And blows consoles like a Starfleet ship if a Wraith Dart looks at it crosseyed.
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 9:04:45 PM EDT
[#19]
The SA-23E Mitchell-Hyundyne Starfury for the win

Based on real physics.  Handles like a dream.  Nose art.  

The coolest fighter around

Link Posted: 3/16/2010 9:08:45 PM EDT
[#20]



Quoted:


A challenger appears from the Outer Rim.



http://shipyards.relicnews.com/kushan/images/interceptor1.jpg



Kushan / Hiigaran Blade Mk II Interceptor



Class: Fighter

Maneuverability: >360 deg / per second in all axis

Acceleration: 975 m/s^2

Max Velocity: 875 m/s

Mass: 60 tons



Weapons: 2 rapid-cyclic mass drivers

Range: 4,500km



Homeworld baby! Ya!

 
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 9:09:57 PM EDT
[#21]
I must have found the gay boy fantasy thread.I like play toys also.I have a Alpha3000 planet searcher also.

Link Posted: 3/16/2010 9:10:43 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Are you guys serious?!?!   Who gives a shit?  I'm sure once I turned 15 it became a non issue to me.


"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."- C.S. Lewis
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 9:11:06 PM EDT
[#23]



Quoted:


Anyone know if they ever made a BSG videogame worth having?


http://www.beyondtheredline.net/demo.html



 



Its only a demo but is currently being built. The only thing that comes close is this game.
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 9:12:44 PM EDT
[#24]
No love for the White Star?
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 9:13:16 PM EDT
[#25]
I blew up my snowspeeder with firecrackers. The armor withstood several ladyfinger strikes before it broke apart and Luke Skywalker ejected to safety.
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 9:14:54 PM EDT
[#26]


Not a single man point fighter like the Viper or X-Wing.
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 9:14:56 PM EDT
[#27]



Quoted:





Quoted:

Anyone know if they ever made a BSG videogame worth having?


http://www.beyondtheredline.net/demo.html

 



Its only a demo but is currently being built. The only thing that comes close is this game.


Big shitty guy.I am impressed.Got to get it.




 
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 9:15:15 PM EDT
[#28]
http://www.b5tech.com/earthalliance/earthallianceshipsandvessels/earthfighters/tbolt.jpg

class:  SA-32A Thunderbolt
type: Heavy Fighter - Bomber
length: 15.54 meters
mass: 52 metric tons
power: 1 Micro-Fusion reactor  2 Fusion Batteries
duration: 6 hours [standard]
accel.: 1 km/s
crew: 2 - Pilot w/ Bomber
agility: Class A
weapon: 4 Linked, Unidirectional 40mm Pulse Cannons Fusion missiles [10 points]
defense: 5.6 Centimeter re-enforced armor
2 Grappling Claws
1 Cutting Laser
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 9:16:44 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
I'm inclined to lean X-Wing.  Targeting system better than just a MK-I eyeball, hyperdrive, shields, heavy weapons to include proton torpedoes.




This.   As much as I love the Viper, it's outclassed by the X wing in every category.  
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 9:30:19 PM EDT
[#30]
Glad to see so many Valkyrie votes.







Link Posted: 3/16/2010 9:31:21 PM EDT
[#31]
/dorktime

That scene where the A-Wing crashed into the bridge of the Super Star Destroyer –– as far as we know the shields were still up, right?

If so, it implies that Star Wars shields are not actually any good at stopping kinetic damage –– they can stop energy, like lasers, but not actual physical objects.  Physical objects have to be shot down.

Therefore the X-Wing's shields (which are probably a lower power version of the same technology) may be useless against the Viper's guns, which fire bullets.

Battlestar vs Star Destroyer may not even be an interesting fight –– the "flak cloud" the battlestars do would surely burn off most of the incoming laser fire and whatever gets though would surely have a hard time dealing with armor plating designed to withstand nukes.  Meanwhile the Star Destroyer is going to get pelted by kinetic weapons.
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 9:34:26 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Tie Defender. I flew one of those back in '94-95. It had better shields then all the rebel craft, which went a long way with us pilots. Plus having two separate hard points with the ability to carry a shit ton of concussion missiles or balance with proton torpedoes was nice. Factor in that you could do long bombing runs by dumping all your residual power from shield and blasters to over torque the P-sz9.7 engines and deliver proton bombs at nearly 200! Then throw in the twin ion cannons and quad blasters an you could singlehandedly disable capital ships.

Damn bantha-counters screwed the program. Who cared if they cost 300,000 credits each! So what if it was 5x the cost of a regular tie. Can a regular tie face down a victory class star destroyer and survive while disabling it's sublight engines while the interdictor holds them in place. Only complaint I ever had was the hyperspace engine. We didn't need it. a jump of more than a parsec was cruel and unusual punishment and severely degraded pilot performance. We were always based out of a cruiser or larger anyway. That could have saved a few credits.

I miss the old girl.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/d/d6/Defhanger.jpg


WOW!   That brought me way back.  I used to crack out on that game for hours, and yes, that was the best of the game....  I wish I could get a version of that game that works on vista
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 9:39:44 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
/dorktime

That scene where the A-Wing crashed into the bridge of the Super Star Destroyer –– as far as we know the shields were still up, right?

The bridge shield something was destroyed.
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 9:42:35 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Tie Defender. I flew one of those back in '94-95. It had better shields then all the rebel craft, which went a long way with us pilots. Plus having two separate hard points with the ability to carry a shit ton of concussion missiles or balance with proton torpedoes was nice. Factor in that you could do long bombing runs by dumping all your residual power from shield and blasters to over torque the P-sz9.7 engines and deliver proton bombs at nearly 200! Then throw in the twin ion cannons and quad blasters an you could singlehandedly disable capital ships.

Damn bantha-counters screwed the program. Who cared if they cost 300,000 credits each! So what if it was 5x the cost of a regular tie. Can a regular tie face down a victory class star destroyer and survive while disabling it's sublight engines while the interdictor holds them in place. Only complaint I ever had was the hyperspace engine. We didn't need it. a jump of more than a parsec was cruel and unusual punishment and severely degraded pilot performance. We were always based out of a cruiser or larger anyway. That could have saved a few credits.

I miss the old girl.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/d/d6/Defhanger.jpg


WOW!   That brought me way back.  I used to crack out on that game for hours, and yes, that was the best of the game....  I wish I could get a version of that game that works on vista


I found these the other day, but I haven't tried them yet.

X-Wing game installation patches.
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 9:46:06 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Tie Defender. I flew one of those back in '94-95. It had better shields then all the rebel craft, which went a long way with us pilots. Plus having two separate hard points with the ability to carry a shit ton of concussion missiles or balance with proton torpedoes was nice. Factor in that you could do long bombing runs by dumping all your residual power from shield and blasters to over torque the P-sz9.7 engines and deliver proton bombs at nearly 200! Then throw in the twin ion cannons and quad blasters an you could singlehandedly disable capital ships.

Damn bantha-counters screwed the program. Who cared if they cost 300,000 credits each! So what if it was 5x the cost of a regular tie. Can a regular tie face down a victory class star destroyer and survive while disabling it's sublight engines while the interdictor holds them in place. Only complaint I ever had was the hyperspace engine. We didn't need it. a jump of more than a parsec was cruel and unusual punishment and severely degraded pilot performance. We were always based out of a cruiser or larger anyway. That could have saved a few credits.

I miss the old girl.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/d/d6/Defhanger.jpg


WOW!   That brought me way back.  I used to crack out on that game for hours, and yes, that was the best of the game....  I wish I could get a version of that game that works on vista


I found these the other day, but I haven't tried them yet.

X-Wing game installation patches.


OMG if this works, nobody is going to hear from me for about a week
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 9:47:34 PM EDT
[#36]
X-wing.  Not even in the same class.
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 10:21:27 PM EDT
[#37]
I can't believe no one has posted it yet... UFO INTERCEPTOR FTW!!!













 
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 10:22:23 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
I'm inclined to lean X-Wing.  Targeting system better than just a MK-I eyeball, hyperdrive, shields, heavy weapons to include proton torpedoes.


+1 for the win.
Link Posted: 3/16/2010 10:23:32 PM EDT
[#39]
Link Posted: 3/17/2010 2:04:12 AM EDT
[#40]
i still retain and play xwingalliance flight sim, very modified version though with a great many custom ships and improved graphics.

any who still have your disks google xwa upgrade project for the newer stock models, and google darksabers xwing station for lotsa cool custom craft to include the TIE Raptor and TIE Vampire mk2

also for windows 7 there is a image/burn process to make it work due to bit size differences

and also here http://amiralaria.free.fr/xwam_an.php is a how-to on making custom multiplayer missions that use the hanger and hyperspace etc, or just playing the single player missions as multiplayer.  a lot of basic editing knowledge for the game may first have to be driven into your skull by reading darksabers website tho, and i think datamasters stuff is still archived out there sumwhere.


Back when i played on the zone no one gave any credence to tie defender pilots, since it was the uber ship of the game (ie for noobs  ), but occaisionally i'd pwn a T/D pilot using  bwing (have to get the kill in the head to head pass spamming mag pulse or ion pulse missiles and ion fire) and a couple times in an xwing by starting the knife fight then deacceling for a collision with all shields rear (repairtime was faster on the xwing supposedly due to astromech droid, you can check the values using binhexedit and the xwa modules)
Link Posted: 3/17/2010 2:10:47 AM EDT
[#41]


white star is more of a light cruiser , but I'd put in a vote for the star fury's myself , or for that matter shadow vessels or vorlon fighters .
Link Posted: 3/17/2010 2:50:27 AM EDT
[#42]
Millennium Falcon.

"She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts."    
Link Posted: 3/17/2010 6:11:37 AM EDT
[#43]



Quoted:


/dorktime



That scene where the A-Wing crashed into the bridge of the Super Star Destroyer –– as far as we know the shields were still up, right?



If so, it implies that Star Wars shields are not actually any good at stopping kinetic damage –– they can stop energy, like lasers, but not actual physical objects.  Physical objects have to be shot down.



Therefore the X-Wing's shields (which are probably a lower power version of the same technology) may be useless against the Viper's guns, which fire bullets.



Battlestar vs Star Destroyer may not even be an interesting fight –– the "flak cloud" the battlestars do would surely burn off most of the incoming laser fire and whatever gets though would surely have a hard time dealing with armor plating designed to withstand nukes.  Meanwhile the Star Destroyer is going to get pelted by kinetic weapons.



The line just before that is, "We've lost the bridge deflector shield. Intensify the forward firepower."  Go watch the movie 100x and say ten F* George Lucas's.



 
Link Posted: 3/17/2010 6:15:44 AM EDT
[#44]



Quoted:


i still retain and play xwingalliance flight sim, very modified version though with a great many custom ships and improved graphics.



any who still have your disks google xwa upgrade project for the newer stock models, and google darksabers xwing station for lotsa cool custom craft to include the TIE Raptor and TIE Vampire mk2



also for windows 7 there is a image/burn process to make it work due to bit size differences



and also here http://amiralaria.free.fr/xwam_an.php is a how-to on making custom multiplayer missions that use the hanger and hyperspace etc, or just playing the single player missions as multiplayer.  a lot of basic editing knowledge for the game may first have to be driven into your skull by reading darksabers website tho, and i think datamasters stuff is still archived out there sumwhere.





Back when i played on the zone no one gave any credence to tie defender pilots, since it was the uber ship of the game (ie for noobs  
), but occaisionally i'd pwn a T/D pilot using  bwing (have to get the kill in the head to head pass spamming mag pulse or ion pulse missiles and ion fire) and a couple times in an xwing by starting the knife fight then deacceling for a collision with all shields rear (repairtime was faster on the xwing supposedly due to astromech droid, you can check the values using binhexedit and the xwa modules)


So you admit it was the best hip out there...



 
Link Posted: 3/17/2010 6:42:34 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Tie Defender. I flew one of those back in '94-95. It had better shields then all the rebel craft, which went a long way with us pilots. Plus having two separate hard points with the ability to carry a shit ton of concussion missiles or balance with proton torpedoes was nice. Factor in that you could do long bombing runs by dumping all your residual power from shield and blasters to over torque the P-sz9.7 engines and deliver proton bombs at nearly 200! Then throw in the twin ion cannons and quad blasters an you could singlehandedly disable capital ships.

Damn bantha-counters screwed the program. Who cared if they cost 300,000 credits each! So what if it was 5x the cost of a regular tie. Can a regular tie face down a victory class star destroyer and survive while disabling it's sublight engines while the interdictor holds them in place. Only complaint I ever had was the hyperspace engine. We didn't need it. a jump of more than a parsec was cruel and unusual punishment and severely degraded pilot performance. We were always based out of a cruiser or larger anyway. That could have saved a few credits.

I miss the old girl.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/d/d6/Defhanger.jpg


Tie Defenders are just ridiculous ships.  More firepower than a b-wing with speed and maneuverability of an a-wing.  I wore out a joystick playing the X-wing series games.

<Basks in nostalgia>


Link Posted: 3/17/2010 6:48:15 AM EDT
[#46]
The Viper has the advantage of being able to exploit Newtonian physics while the X-wing is apparently stuck flying like a atmospheric fighter plane. The X-wing has shields though so I'm not sure if the Viper's cannons could chew through those.
Link Posted: 3/17/2010 6:50:33 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Tie Defender. I flew one of those back in '94-95. It had better shields then all the rebel craft, which went a long way with us pilots. Plus having two separate hard points with the ability to carry a shit ton of concussion missiles or balance with proton torpedoes was nice. Factor in that you could do long bombing runs by dumping all your residual power from shield and blasters to over torque the P-sz9.7 engines and deliver proton bombs at nearly 200! Then throw in the twin ion cannons and quad blasters an you could singlehandedly disable capital ships.

Damn bantha-counters screwed the program. Who cared if they cost 300,000 credits each! So what if it was 5x the cost of a regular tie. Can a regular tie face down a victory class star destroyer and survive while disabling it's sublight engines while the interdictor holds them in place. Only complaint I ever had was the hyperspace engine. We didn't need it. a jump of more than a parsec was cruel and unusual punishment and severely degraded pilot performance. We were always based out of a cruiser or larger anyway. That could have saved a few credits.

I miss the old girl.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/d/d6/Defhanger.jpg


Tie Defenders are just ridiculous ships.  More firepower than a b-wing with speed and maneuverability of an a-wing.  I wore out a joystick playing the X-wing series games.

<Basks in nostalgia>




The Tie Defender was my second favorite. I loved the Missile Boat, loaded full of advanced missiles and/or torpedos.
Link Posted: 3/17/2010 6:56:18 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Tie Defender. I flew one of those back in '94-95. It had better shields then all the rebel craft, which went a long way with us pilots. Plus having two separate hard points with the ability to carry a shit ton of concussion missiles or balance with proton torpedoes was nice. Factor in that you could do long bombing runs by dumping all your residual power from shield and blasters to over torque the P-sz9.7 engines and deliver proton bombs at nearly 200! Then throw in the twin ion cannons and quad blasters an you could singlehandedly disable capital ships.

Damn bantha-counters screwed the program. Who cared if they cost 300,000 credits each! So what if it was 5x the cost of a regular tie. Can a regular tie face down a victory class star destroyer and survive while disabling it's sublight engines while the interdictor holds them in place. Only complaint I ever had was the hyperspace engine. We didn't need it. a jump of more than a parsec was cruel and unusual punishment and severely degraded pilot performance. We were always based out of a cruiser or larger anyway. That could have saved a few credits.

I miss the old girl.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/d/d6/Defhanger.jpg


Former Tie Defender pilot here as well.

Nothing beats this. Nothing.


Sorry, Missle boat > Defender. End of story.
Link Posted: 3/17/2010 7:00:03 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:

Quoted:
i still retain and play xwingalliance flight sim, very modified version though with a great many custom ships and improved graphics.

any who still have your disks google xwa upgrade project for the newer stock models, and google darksabers xwing station for lotsa cool custom craft to include the TIE Raptor and TIE Vampire mk2

also for windows 7 there is a image/burn process to make it work due to bit size differences

and also here http://amiralaria.free.fr/xwam_an.php is a how-to on making custom multiplayer missions that use the hanger and hyperspace etc, or just playing the single player missions as multiplayer.  a lot of basic editing knowledge for the game may first have to be driven into your skull by reading darksabers website tho, and i think datamasters stuff is still archived out there sumwhere.


Back when i played on the zone no one gave any credence to tie defender pilots, since it was the uber ship of the game (ie for noobs  ), but occaisionally i'd pwn a T/D pilot using  bwing (have to get the kill in the head to head pass spamming mag pulse or ion pulse missiles and ion fire) and a couple times in an xwing by starting the knife fight then deacceling for a collision with all shields rear (repairtime was faster on the xwing supposedly due to astromech droid, you can check the values using binhexedit and the xwa modules)

So you admit it was the best hip out there...
 


oh yes, the designers gave it more speed, accel deaccel, roll rate etc than any other craft, gave it shields stronger than it should have had by rights, and set its weapons power usage/recharge rates too optimal for the number of guns it had. it was totally the javelin/last stand gimic of starwars flight sims.

thats partially why no one took it seriously.

the real hard asses played 1v1 and 2v2 tie fighters or tie interceptors.

i always made missions based on comics and novels and ran 2-4 people through them, usually as rogue squadron

i always loved closing to 4 klicks and send torps into a tie formation and getting 6-8 kills with the one shot....

but the T/D could take a proton torp and still have minimal shields left.

totally over statted by the game designers
Link Posted: 3/17/2010 7:02:39 AM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Tie Defender. I flew one of those back in '94-95. It had better shields then all the rebel craft, which went a long way with us pilots. Plus having two separate hard points with the ability to carry a shit ton of concussion missiles or balance with proton torpedoes was nice. Factor in that you could do long bombing runs by dumping all your residual power from shield and blasters to over torque the P-sz9.7 engines and deliver proton bombs at nearly 200! Then throw in the twin ion cannons and quad blasters an you could singlehandedly disable capital ships.

Damn bantha-counters screwed the program. Who cared if they cost 300,000 credits each! So what if it was 5x the cost of a regular tie. Can a regular tie face down a victory class star destroyer and survive while disabling it's sublight engines while the interdictor holds them in place. Only complaint I ever had was the hyperspace engine. We didn't need it. a jump of more than a parsec was cruel and unusual punishment and severely degraded pilot performance. We were always based out of a cruiser or larger anyway. That could have saved a few credits.

I miss the old girl.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/d/d6/Defhanger.jpg


Former Tie Defender pilot here as well.

Nothing beats this. Nothing.


Sorry, Missle boat > Defender. End of story.


for attacking platforms and capital ships yeah...but two human players dogfighting?

no way, the missiles get shot during merge and never hit the t/d, then past the merge the t/d is always behind the missileboat.....only a slam on the breaks manuever resulting in collision would save you (t/d hull was still fragile as most other tie designs)
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