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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:57:27 AM EDT
[#1]
Dozer because traction.
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:57:58 AM EDT
[#2]
From a standing start the dozer wins based on traction.
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:59:11 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: make em push each other instead of pull Couldn’t be more irrelevant. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:59:14 AM EDT
[#4]
I currently run D-11R's and T's, and was an engineer for Union Pacific for a few years after the Army.
A modern locomotive with the sanders running correctly will pull the frame out of a D-11 |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 1:01:46 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A big locomotive engine weighs about 430k pounds. But, locomotives only have a 30-35% adhesion factor. A D11 is about 230k pounds and can move 57 yards of dirt (about 115k pounds). That means the D11 effectively weighs about 345k pounds when moving forward. So, the train can only generate about 150k pounds of tractive effort. It loses to the D11. Static coefficient of steel on steel is between 0.5 and 0.8. If the brakes are applied on the loco, the dozer needs ~220-350K of force, at a minimum, to overcome that static friction. No way that dozer is moving a locked loco. Notch 1, ease off the independent and away we go. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 1:02:35 AM EDT
[#6]
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Posted: 6/3/2020 1:02:36 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryHEMI tracks, for sure. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 1:02:47 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: New contestant: Crawler Transporter 6 million pounds, 5,364hp powering 16 traction motors running 8 treads https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Crawler-Transporter.jpg/2560px-Crawler-Transporter.jpg Max speed 2mph Is there another land based vehicle on the planet that could move that thing, let alone beat it in a tug of war? |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 1:03:17 AM EDT
[#9]
How do we get all those cars moving?
It's more like very carefully! If I'm starting out a train and apply to much tractive effort, I can snap the train in two or more places. If there's a knuckle that's cracked or close to being worn out, snap! On flat ground it's relatively easy to get a train moving, kick off the air, come out to run 1 or 2 and ease off the jam (locomotive air brake) and off you go. When you're sitting on a hill going up or down, that's when things get interesting! The tug of war would be interesting to see, I would think the CAT would win because it has more traction sitting there in the dirt. Put it up on rails and it would lose. Biggest problem would be trying to make the issue equal. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 1:09:06 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Static coefficient of steel on steel is between 0.5 and 0.8. If the brakes are applied on the loco, the dozer needs ~220-350K of force, at a minimum, to overcome that static friction. No way that dozer is moving a locked loco. Notch 1 and away we go. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: A big locomotive engine weighs about 430k pounds. But, locomotives only have a 30-35% adhesion factor. A D11 is about 230k pounds and can move 57 yards of dirt (about 115k pounds). That means the D11 effectively weighs about 345k pounds when moving forward. So, the train can only generate about 150k pounds of tractive effort. It loses to the D11. Static coefficient of steel on steel is between 0.5 and 0.8. If the brakes are applied on the loco, the dozer needs ~220-350K of force, at a minimum, to overcome that static friction. No way that dozer is moving a locked loco. Notch 1 and away we go. Why can't the D11 deliver the 300k pounds of force? It weighs 230k and can move 150k pounds of dirt which seems to be enough. I'm far from an expert on trains or D11s, or a physicist, so help me. This is an interesting topic! |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 1:10:09 AM EDT
[#11]
Assuming no “boosted” launch for either.
I’d probably give it to the dozer, as it will gain traction faster and maintain it simply due to the amount of ground contact. D11 - newest generation - have 9781sq inches of ground contact. Both forward and backwards. You have approximately x12 28in pads, each with 4 inch growser depth in them to dig in. Ideal ground conditions such as a nice clay to dig in and not skip? It will provide more grunt initially than the train. I think if the train was allowed any sort of rolling start, it would win hands down. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 1:36:35 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why can't the D11 deliver the 300k pounds of force? It weighs 230k and can move 150k pounds of dirt which seems to be enough. I'm far from an expert on trains or D11s, or a physicist, so help me. This is an interesting topic! Weight of the dozer is mostly irrelevant because the drivetrain gearing of the skids will overcome the inertia required to move the dozer fairly effortlessly. The more important force needed is the applied force to move the dirt forward and it appears the dozer can only move 150K, on top of the inertia force required to move the dozer forward. So think of it like the dozer starting at a deficit. The dozer has to move itself PLUS the weight of the dirt. Substitute the weight of the dirt for the weight of the loco. That dozer has to move itself (315K) plus overcome the static friction of the locomotive (~250K lbs). No way that’s happening. We measure locomotive power in HP per ton, so your average loco can pull at 0.5 HPT on flat grade. That’s 4,500,000 lbs. 4400 HP x 0.5HPT x 2,000 lbs = 4,400,000 lbs of pulling force |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 1:47:00 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Weight of the dozer is mostly irrelevant because the drivetrain gearing of the skids will overcome the inertia required to move the dozer fairly effortlessly. The more important force needed is the applied force to move the dirt forward and it appears the dozer can only move 150K, on top of the inertia force required to move the dozer forward. So think of it like the dozer starting at a deficit. The dozer has to move itself PLUS the weight of the dirt. Substitute the weight of the dirt for the weight of the loco. That dozer has to move itself (315K) plus overcome the static friction of the locomotive (~250K lbs). No way that’s happening. We measure locomotive power in HP per ton, so your average loco can pull at 0.5 HPT on flat grade. That’s 4,500,000 lbs. 4400 HP x 0.5HPT x 2,000 lbs = 4,400,000 lbs of pulling force Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Why can't the D11 deliver the 300k pounds of force? It weighs 230k and can move 150k pounds of dirt which seems to be enough. I'm far from an expert on trains or D11s, or a physicist, so help me. This is an interesting topic! Weight of the dozer is mostly irrelevant because the drivetrain gearing of the skids will overcome the inertia required to move the dozer fairly effortlessly. The more important force needed is the applied force to move the dirt forward and it appears the dozer can only move 150K, on top of the inertia force required to move the dozer forward. So think of it like the dozer starting at a deficit. The dozer has to move itself PLUS the weight of the dirt. Substitute the weight of the dirt for the weight of the loco. That dozer has to move itself (315K) plus overcome the static friction of the locomotive (~250K lbs). No way that’s happening. We measure locomotive power in HP per ton, so your average loco can pull at 0.5 HPT on flat grade. That’s 4,500,000 lbs. 4400 HP x 0.5HPT x 2,000 lbs = 4,400,000 lbs of pulling force Draw bar pull is how much weight the dozer cab dead drag. How much material the dozer can move is irrelevant in this conversation. As you have to define the material. If you’re hogging hard rock, it’s going to be a lot different then pinning a 44ft blade on and pushing ground coal. Or putting a deep cut Semi U blade for strip mining. Or putting a backfill blade on for mine reclamation. So a D11s drawbar - how much it can pull - is 350,000lbs in ideal conditions. Of course it’s not going to be able to pull that much if it’s sitting on wet lime stone. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 1:53:16 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: on an ascending grade? oof.... I hate changing knuckles.. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Train Trivia, A locomotive or set of them only starts to move one rail car at a time in sequence. That's why there is slack in the coupler drawbars on each railcar. If all the cars were rigidly tied together the locomotive(s) could not get them all moving at the same time. ehh...well...'stretched out' trains get started all the time. Wouldn't they just back up to relieve the stretch and allow slack action? Kharn on an ascending grade? oof.... I hate changing knuckles.. Knuckles are bad enough. A broken or ripped out coupler/drawbar is a nightmare. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 2:55:54 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That may be true on relative flat track, but that is not the case if you stall on a hill. I have started 13,000 tons on grades with all the slack stretched over 90 cars and start it as one piece. If you stalled on a hill, that means that you did not have enough power to pull the hill by itself much less starting it on that hill.  You'll have to double the hill or get a pusher. If you get a pusher, you'll have slack from the pusher engine. Perhaps you meant "start" on a hill instead of "stall". You can start some trains stretched out, but you won't be able to start every train on every grade stretched out. If you doubt me, do an internet search for "taking slack"; it is a thing. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 3:07:15 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Knuckles are bad enough. A broken or ripped out coupler/drawbar is a nightmare. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Train Trivia, A locomotive or set of them only starts to move one rail car at a time in sequence. That's why there is slack in the coupler drawbars on each railcar. If all the cars were rigidly tied together the locomotive(s) could not get them all moving at the same time. ehh...well...'stretched out' trains get started all the time. Wouldn't they just back up to relieve the stretch and allow slack action? Kharn on an ascending grade? oof.... I hate changing knuckles.. Knuckles are bad enough. A broken or ripped out coupler/drawbar is a nightmare. yea...not my skill set |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 3:16:33 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: yea...not my skill set Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Train Trivia, A locomotive or set of them only starts to move one rail car at a time in sequence. That's why there is slack in the coupler drawbars on each railcar. If all the cars were rigidly tied together the locomotive(s) could not get them all moving at the same time. ehh...well...'stretched out' trains get started all the time. Wouldn't they just back up to relieve the stretch and allow slack action? Kharn on an ascending grade? oof.... I hate changing knuckles.. Knuckles are bad enough. A broken or ripped out coupler/drawbar is a nightmare. yea...not my skill set Well, moving the train ain't my skill set. Doing enough roll-bys over the years I have come to know and appreciate a smooth engineer when I see one. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 4:24:27 AM EDT
[#18]
Wut, no Cat porn??!
 Dad made a career operating those things. The shit he did with one would make you sit on the edge of your seat watching. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 7:05:16 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Knuckles are bad enough. A broken or ripped out coupler/drawbar is a nightmare. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Train Trivia, A locomotive or set of them only starts to move one rail car at a time in sequence. That's why there is slack in the coupler drawbars on each railcar. If all the cars were rigidly tied together the locomotive(s) could not get them all moving at the same time. ehh...well...'stretched out' trains get started all the time. Wouldn't they just back up to relieve the stretch and allow slack action? Kharn on an ascending grade? oof.... I hate changing knuckles.. Knuckles are bad enough. A broken or ripped out coupler/drawbar is a nightmare. I bet! what do those things weigh, 6-700 lbs? |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 10:39:18 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you stalled on a hill, that means that you did not have enough power to pull the hill by itself much less starting it on that hill. You'll have to double the hill or get a pusher. If you get a pusher, you'll have slack from the pusher engine. Perhaps you meant "start" on a hill instead of "stall".You can start some trains stretched out, but you won't be able to start every train on every grade stretched out. If you doubt me, do an internet search for "taking slack"; it is a thing. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That may be true on relative flat track, but that is not the case if you stall on a hill. I have started 13,000 tons on grades with all the slack stretched over 90 cars and start it as one piece. If you stalled on a hill, that means that you did not have enough power to pull the hill by itself much less starting it on that hill. You'll have to double the hill or get a pusher. If you get a pusher, you'll have slack from the pusher engine. Perhaps you meant "start" on a hill instead of "stall".You can start some trains stretched out, but you won't be able to start every train on every grade stretched out. If you doubt me, do an internet search for "taking slack"; it is a thing. No. I meant stall on a hill because of minimal power and wet rail or losing an engine. No pushers where I was so you cut off and sanded the hill. Couple back up, cut the air in, and came out on the throttle. As the air builds and the brakes begin to release you give it more power to keep it from rolling back and then if you put enough sand down start up the hill. I have also stalled on a hill when some yutes took buckets of grease MOW had placed next to a wheel greaser and spread it in patches over a mile up a hill. Made it past the first several patches then stalled. Now that took pouring sand out of the sand box by hand and three motors from a following train to get started. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 10:43:19 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No. I meant stall on a hill because of minimal power and wet rail or losing an engine. No pushers where I was so you cut off and sanded the hill. Couple back up, cut the air in, and came out on the throttle. As the air builds and the brakes begin to release you give it more power to keep it from rolling back and then if you put enough sand down start up the hill. I have also stalled on a hill when some yutes took buckets of grease MOW had placed next to a wheel greaser and spread it in patches over a mile up a hill. Made it past the first several patches then stalled. Now that took pouring sand out of the sand box by hand and three motors from a following train to get started. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: That may be true on relative flat track, but that is not the case if you stall on a hill. I have started 13,000 tons on grades with all the slack stretched over 90 cars and start it as one piece. If you stalled on a hill, that means that you did not have enough power to pull the hill by itself much less starting it on that hill. You'll have to double the hill or get a pusher. If you get a pusher, you'll have slack from the pusher engine. Perhaps you meant "start" on a hill instead of "stall".You can start some trains stretched out, but you won't be able to start every train on every grade stretched out. If you doubt me, do an internet search for "taking slack"; it is a thing. No. I meant stall on a hill because of minimal power and wet rail or losing an engine. No pushers where I was so you cut off and sanded the hill. Couple back up, cut the air in, and came out on the throttle. As the air builds and the brakes begin to release you give it more power to keep it from rolling back and then if you put enough sand down start up the hill. I have also stalled on a hill when some yutes took buckets of grease MOW had placed next to a wheel greaser and spread it in patches over a mile up a hill. Made it past the first several patches then stalled. Now that took pouring sand out of the sand box by hand and three motors from a following train to get started. That's horrible they did it, but it did make me laugh. Interesting way to disable a train. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 10:51:21 AM EDT
[#22]
If the train ever gets traction, it wins. If the D11 prevents the train from getting traction, the D11 wins.
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Posted: 6/3/2020 11:21:26 AM EDT
[#23]
For the D11 wins hands down guys, what's the lowest D# you feel confident will win?
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Posted: 6/3/2020 11:38:30 AM EDT
[#24]
Stupid person post here-
Is the dozer traction greater than train traction? I know the dozer tracks and friction but still, weight kind of ground can keep solid with so much force? Someone educate me on what beast of cable would be stretched between the 2? This stuff is fascinating and I'm dumb on it but love reading some of the experts replies |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 11:44:19 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For the D11 wins hands down guys, what's the lowest D# you feel confident will win? I run D-11R's and D11T's everyday at work. In a past life I also had my Engine license for Union Pacific as a trainman. With the sanders working properly, a modern road engine (main line locomotive) is going to better the D11 by alot. The amount of traction in a modern locomotive with the computers controlling slip on all six traction motors is astounding. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:00:08 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Which ones wins in a head on collision? |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:03:09 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I bet! what do those things weigh, 6-700 lbs? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Train Trivia, A locomotive or set of them only starts to move one rail car at a time in sequence. That's why there is slack in the coupler drawbars on each railcar. If all the cars were rigidly tied together the locomotive(s) could not get them all moving at the same time. ehh...well...'stretched out' trains get started all the time. Wouldn't they just back up to relieve the stretch and allow slack action? Kharn on an ascending grade? oof.... I hate changing knuckles.. Knuckles are bad enough. A broken or ripped out coupler/drawbar is a nightmare. I bet! what do those things weigh, 6-700 lbs? To be honest, that is a great question. I was always told as an apprentice that a typical, type E short shank coupler was roughly 600 lbs. But I have never looked into a concrete answer. I am sure the longer shanked ones used on flat cars and auto racks have to weigh more as well as the type F rotary ones on coal cars. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:04:48 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: D11 for sure. Now if the locomotive had a "geared" connection to the rails like a rack/pinion arrangement, things might get sporty  Shay=8 wheel drive locomotive similar to having lockers on a truck. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:05:29 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The spectators. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Which ones wins in a head on collision? Realistically neither. D11 might fair better over all because the blade is disposable. And it would certainly de-rail the train. But it would certainly be the unstoppable force vs the immovable object. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:07:33 PM EDT
[#30]
I watched a dozer pull an immobilized Sherman tank out of a mud pit once.
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:11:21 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryRoller burnishing |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:14:38 PM EDT
[#32]
If they were both on treadmills, it would be no competition.
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:14:54 PM EDT
[#33]
These three pages were fun, but where's the video? This is worth seeing!
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:27:04 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you stalled on a hill, that means that you did not have enough power to pull the hill by itself much less starting it on that hill. You'll have to double the hill or get a pusher. If you get a pusher, you'll have slack from the pusher engine. Perhaps you meant "start" on a hill instead of "stall".You can start some trains stretched out, but you won't be able to start every train on every grade stretched out. If you doubt me, do an internet search for "taking slack"; it is a thing. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That may be true on relative flat track, but that is not the case if you stall on a hill. I have started 13,000 tons on grades with all the slack stretched over 90 cars and start it as one piece. If you stalled on a hill, that means that you did not have enough power to pull the hill by itself much less starting it on that hill. You'll have to double the hill or get a pusher. If you get a pusher, you'll have slack from the pusher engine. Perhaps you meant "start" on a hill instead of "stall".You can start some trains stretched out, but you won't be able to start every train on every grade stretched out. If you doubt me, do an internet search for "taking slack"; it is a thing. These days you just ask the mechanical desk if you can use more throttle than notch 5 or put the trailing locomotives online. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:31:41 PM EDT
[#35]
based on co-efficients of static friction and surface areas
1 Large steel tracks on dirt 2 Small contact patches of STEEL on steel (sanded or not) The Locomotive has HUGELY more horsepower, but its going to lose. D-11 wins. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:42:34 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: These three pages were fun, but where's the video? This is worth seeing! This. I’d pay to watch this happen. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 12:48:59 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: based on co-efficients of static friction and surface areas 1 Large steel tracks on dirt 2 Small contact patches of STEEL on steel (sanded or not) The Locomotive has HUGELY more horsepower, but its going to lose. D-11 wins. Nah. I have thousands of hours in both D11s and locomotives. The modern road units with the computers controlling traction to all six traction motors is going to pull any D11 backwards if they sanded the rail. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 1:15:12 PM EDT
[#38]
I was hoping for a video :(
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Posted: 6/3/2020 2:06:35 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Locomotive won't be able to get traction. Put them both on steel and I'd put money on the train. this is what i was gonna say too. J- |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 2:20:41 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Knuckles are bad enough. A broken or ripped out coupler/drawbar is a nightmare. Dad was part of a crew that ripped a tank car in half back in the early 1970s. Empty tank in the front of a long train starting out uphill with the engineer getting to play with brand new SD-45-2s and RIPPP!!! |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 2:41:15 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dad was part of a crew that ripped a tank car in half back in the early 1970s. Empty tank in the front of a long train starting out uphill with the engineer getting to play with brand new SD-45-2s and RIPPP!!! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Knuckles are bad enough. A broken or ripped out coupler/drawbar is a nightmare. Dad was part of a crew that ripped a tank car in half back in the early 1970s. Empty tank in the front of a long train starting out uphill with the engineer getting to play with brand new SD-45-2s and RIPPP!!! Lol I haven't got to see anything quite that awesome. Just the occasional one-lunger that sometimes has the entire draft sill fucked beyond belief. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 2:46:05 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryHard to beat 100% torque available at 0 RPM |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 2:55:21 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: These days you just ask the mechanical desk if you can use more throttle than notch 5 or put the trailing locomotives online. Wow, those MBAs in the Ivory Tower sucking on that PSR cock sure have gotten micromanaging down to a science these days, don't they? 
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Posted: 6/3/2020 2:57:54 PM EDT
[#44]
Tearing a car apart is pretty impressive, best I've seen is an engineer get 3 knuckles at once.
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Posted: 6/3/2020 3:17:37 PM EDT
[#45]
Now...
More pressing question.... Could the machine my company used to supply... Pull a train, that has traction, backwards? 
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Posted: 6/3/2020 4:37:17 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Now... More pressing question.... Could the machine my company used to supply... Pull a train, that has traction, backwards? https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/148484/bigmuskie-1445311.jpg I've seen a Marion 8200 drag out a D11 that lawn darted into a sump. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 4:42:51 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would say so. I've seen a Marion 8200 drag out a D11 that lawn darted into a sump. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Now... More pressing question.... Could the machine my company used to supply... Pull a train, that has traction, backwards? https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/148484/bigmuskie-1445311.jpg I've seen a Marion 8200 drag out a D11 that lawn darted into a sump.  That appears in my feed time and time again. |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 5:01:26 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would love to see someone drift the steelie cat  Bulldozer Drifting || ViralHog |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 5:08:51 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How does a locomotive get all those cars moving? This might introduce an issue that would give the locomotive an advantage. Have it not just be dozer vs. locomotive but dozer vs. a maximum weight train with the locomotive. I'm thinking that perhaps with a huge amount of weight to begin rolling that the locomotive would win. Dozer on dirt -- cable or chain -- end of train-locomotive on tracks |
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Posted: 6/3/2020 5:15:47 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Now... More pressing question.... Could the machine my company used to supply... Pull a train, that has traction, backwards? https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/148484/bigmuskie-1445311.jpg I would love to see all of this stuff really happen. |
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