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Posted: 12/5/2013 9:10:36 PM EDT
[#1]
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I was not addressing you, save your white pride gibberish So being proud of my ancestors achievement makes me racist? You've already been marked and your assertion puts the racist label squarely on you. You dislike white people, scoff at their achievments and the 100 of millions of lives saved by their interventions. Why are you on this forum with all us racists? Shh, and, somehow he is related to every white inventor known in history... 
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Posted: 12/5/2013 9:12:46 PM EDT
[#2]
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Why do you think blacks in the united states overwhelmingly, historically, vote for politicians who care little for property rights generally? I'd submit its due in large part to the treatment of blacks as property. And the prohibition on blacks owning property in many places. Its endemic. Why should I care about property? My ancesters were property. or more likely because in their own tradition wealth was not through property so much as it was kinship and the labor power that comes with it. and today because if you are living in a tenement/hood, the conception of property is likely immediate, like getting your hands on an obama phone (laugh), not abstract , legal, and long term like you whiteys do shit. and because it's very strongly a white man's issue and thus probably a quick way to be identified as an uncle tom by one's constituency. |
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Posted: 12/5/2013 9:15:36 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you have a cite for his? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You know I just want to drop this little gem of information here since so many think that it was only the whites putting down the natives and the ANC were freedom fighters. According to the Human Rights Commission it is estimated that during the Apartheid period some 21,000 people were killed, however both the UN Crimes against Humanity commission and South Africa's own Truth and Reconciliation Commission are in agreement that in those 43 years the South African Security forces killed a total of 518 people. The rest, (some 92%) were accounted for by Africans killing Africans, many by means of the notorious and gruesome practice of necklacing whereby a car tyre full of petrol is placed around a victim's neck and set alight. This particularly cruel form of execution was frequently carried out at the behest of the ANC with the enthusiastic support of Mandela's demonic wife Winnie. Do you have a cite for his? |
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Posted: 12/5/2013 9:17:59 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: You know I just want to drop this little gem of information here since so many think that it was only the whites putting down the natives and the ANC were freedom fighters. According to the Human Rights Commission it is estimated that during the Apartheid period some 21,000 people were killed, however both the UN Crimes against Humanity commission and South Africa's own Truth and Reconciliation Commission are in agreement that in those 43 years the South African Security forces killed a total of 518 people. The rest, (some 92%) were accounted for by Africans killing Africans, many by means of the notorious and gruesome practice of necklacing whereby a car tyre full of petrol is placed around a victim's neck and set alight. This particularly cruel form of execution was frequently carried out at the behest of the ANC with the enthusiastic support of Mandela's demonic wife Winnie. Do you have a cite for his? http://www.jmm.org.au/articles/321.htm |
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Posted: 12/5/2013 9:18:01 PM EDT
[#5]
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The man was a terrorist........... He also brought the ANC to leadership in South Africa.......And if you are curious why that is bad?  http://youtu.be/6fzRSE_p1Ys
Playing devil's advocate here…wouldn't WE be the "terrorists" if we resisted a government that decided to classify white gun-owners as sub-human animals fit for no protection under the law and subject to torture and murder without any recourse? I realize this douche-nugget was commy scum, but still... |
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Posted: 12/5/2013 9:53:47 PM EDT
[#6]
I don't know if this has been stated yet (I'm still on page 3
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but South Africa pre/post apartheid seems a lot like Syria today. You've got the dictator vs the terrorists.... |
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Posted: 12/5/2013 10:01:07 PM EDT
[#7]
Some of us consider Mandela a terrorist because he co-founded a terrorist organization that murdered 100 civilians and injured dozens more. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe#Number_of_deaths South African police statistics indicate that, in the period 1976 to 1986, approximately 130 deaths were attributed to the Umkhonto we Sizwe. Of these, about thirty were members of various security forces and one hundred were civilians. Of the civilians, 40 were white and 60 black.[17] In the Amanzimtoti bomb on the Natal South Coast in 1985, five civilians were killed and 40 were injured when MK cadre Andrew Sibusiso Zondo detonated an explosive in a rubbish bin at a shopping centre killing five people, including three children, shortly before Christmas. A bomb was detonated in a bar on the Durban beach-front in 1986, killing three civilians and injuring 69. The bombing campaign continued with attacks on a series of soft targets, including a bank in Roodepoort in 1988, in which four civilians were killed and 18 injured. Also in 1988, in a bomb detonation outside a magistrate's court killed three. At the Ellis Park rugby stadium in Johannesburg, a car bomb killed two and injured 37 civilians. A multitude of bombs in "Wimpy Bar" fast food outlets and supermarkets occurred during the late 1980s, killing and wounding many people. Wimpy were specifically targeted because of their perceived rigid enforcements of many Apartheid-era laws, including excluding people of colour from their restaurants. Several other bombings occurred, with smaller numbers of casualties. Then his group, by the ANC's own admission, used landmines to kill 23 people- mostly black laborers. Landmine campaign From 1985 to 1987, there also was a campaign to place anti-tank mines in rural roads in what was then the Northern Transvaal. This tactic was abandoned due to the high rate of civilian casualties—especially amongst black labourers. The ANC estimated 30 landmine explosions resulting in 23 deaths, while the government submitted a figure of 57 explosions resulting in 25 deaths.[11] |
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Posted: 12/5/2013 10:09:01 PM EDT
[#8]
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If you wanted support from the US, you wrapped yourself in pro-Democracy terms. If you couldn't get support from the US, you called yourself a Communist and went to the USSR for support instead. Whether he was actually a Communist or not, I don't know. I do know that the oft-talked about GD revolution would be a massive terrorist action. All over a situation which would not be as bad as what drove Mandela to start his terroristic slaughter. Edit: This isn't devil's advocate stuff. This is GD's rank hypocrisy getting to me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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GD - A magical place where people threaten to become terrorists if perceived injustices are committed, but condemn a man who did exactly what they say they would do in circumstances no where near as bad.  I understand that somebody's got to play devil's advocate now and then, but I think you might want to scale it back this time. The man was a communist and an actual terrorist. If you wanted support from the US, you wrapped yourself in pro-Democracy terms. If you couldn't get support from the US, you called yourself a Communist and went to the USSR for support instead. Whether he was actually a Communist or not, I don't know. I do know that the oft-talked about GD revolution would be a massive terrorist action. All over a situation which would not be as bad as what drove Mandela to start his terroristic slaughter. Edit: This isn't devil's advocate stuff. This is GD's rank hypocrisy getting to me. If its getting to you, you can always you know... Get the fuck out. 
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Posted: 12/5/2013 10:09:16 PM EDT
[#9]
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Having this exact conversation with my sister via FB IM now, according to her it was a justifiable war with good targets against an evil and hateful regime and Mandela was a great man... Fucking Harvard educations 
She single? |
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Posted: 12/5/2013 11:26:23 PM EDT
[#10]
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Whooa. Who said "some form of opposition"? If I were black living under Apartheid I would have accepted my inferiority and been thankful for the opportunity to be treated like a second class citizen. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I know, like most of Arfcom, that if I were a black South African living under Apartheid that I would have accepted my second class citizenship without the least complaint. It justifies some form of opposition, but not Marxism, terrorism, the killing of innocents, extreme brutality, and the creation of an even worse government than what was being opposed. Whooa. Who said "some form of opposition"? If I were black living under Apartheid I would have accepted my inferiority and been thankful for the opportunity to be treated like a second class citizen. It's quite clear you're being sarcastic then, and are being so now. Despite the sarcasm, though, many blacks were thankful for what they had in South Africa, otherwise they would not have moved there from other African countries in such large numbers. |
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Posted: 12/5/2013 11:29:27 PM EDT
[#11]
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That's easy for you to say, since you're most probably a white guy and you're living in a fairly free country. Collateral damage is an acceptable component of any war, just ask us, the USA. Chris Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I know, like most of Arfcom, that if I were a black South African living under Apartheid that I would have accepted my second class citizenship without the least complaint. It justifies some form of opposition, but not Marxism, terrorism, the killing of innocents, extreme brutality, and the creation of an even worse government than what was being opposed. That's easy for you to say, since you're most probably a white guy and you're living in a fairly free country. Collateral damage is an acceptable component of any war, just ask us, the USA. Chris Mixed race, actually, but mostly of European ancestry. And what was done went well beyond anything remotely classifiable as "collateral damage," and certainly beyond anything morally acceptable, even if the U.S. has done morally unacceptable things itself (which certainly does not justify anything anyone else does). It was not war, it was terrorism. It was the creation of a socialist state that was the end goal, and any blacks opposed to that had to go as well as far as they were concerned. I wish I was just imagining people here justify terrorism, murder, torture, extreme brutality, the targeting of innocents, etc., but I've come to expect this in GD. |
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Posted: 12/5/2013 11:30:55 PM EDT
[#12]
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I personally don't have a problem with violent revolution in the face of atrocities such as apartheid. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I know, like most of Arfcom, that if I were a black South African living under Apartheid that I would have accepted my second class citizenship without the least complaint. It justifies some form of opposition, but not Marxism, terrorism, the killing of innocents, extreme brutality, and the creation of an even worse government than what was being opposed. I personally don't have a problem with violent revolution in the face of atrocities such as apartheid. Atrocity is a very strong word. Definitely not a generally applicable term when it comes to apartheid. And revolution, in the modern sense, really isn't justifiable, especially the methods involved here. In this case it was a revolution against civilization itself; now that that has largely been removed, we are seeing the predictable results in that country. |
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Posted: 12/5/2013 11:33:26 PM EDT
[#13]
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Atrocity is a very strong word. Definitely not a generally applicable term when it comes to apartheid. And revolution, in the modern sense, really isn't justifiable, especially the methods involved here. In this case it was a revolution against civilization itself; now that that has largely been removed, we are seeing the predictable results in that country. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I know, like most of Arfcom, that if I were a black South African living under Apartheid that I would have accepted my second class citizenship without the least complaint. It justifies some form of opposition, but not Marxism, terrorism, the killing of innocents, extreme brutality, and the creation of an even worse government than what was being opposed. I personally don't have a problem with violent revolution in the face of atrocities such as apartheid. Atrocity is a very strong word. Definitely not a generally applicable term when it comes to apartheid. And revolution, in the modern sense, really isn't justifiable, especially the methods involved here. In this case it was a revolution against civilization itself; now that that has largely been removed, we are seeing the predictable results in that country. What is an atrocity is the fact that this commie POS is getting celebrated by most of the idiots in this country right now and our worthless president is singing his praises and ordering flags at half mast. |
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Posted: 12/5/2013 11:38:10 PM EDT
[#14]
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I'm going to say this as diplomatically as I can... ...if the only way your country could figure out how to maintain law and order was to subjugate the majority of the population, strip them of fundamental human rights, encode in your laws that they were less than human, and subject them to some of the most vicious tyranny of the 20th century, then your fucked up country run by small-minded racist fucking tyrants deserved to fucking fail and collapse in fucking bloody anarchy and I have no fucking sympathy at all. You may not realize it, but your arguments are eerily similar to some of the justifications captured Nazi leadership gave for the anti-Jewish Nuremberg Laws and forced relocation of undesirables to ghettos and concentration camps. "We HAD to, or they would have destroyed each other and us all! They're savages who consume nations! It was the only way to preserve the state!." Your whining is nothing more than bullshit excuses for brutal tyranny. The only real difference, as was pointed out earlier, is that your government didn't go as far as extermination camps. But, again, a lack of infrastructure does not absolve you. You are making excuses for the unforgivable and I have no sympathy for the fate of your nation as it faces the consequences of its sins, as terrible and self-destructive as they may be. Was Mandela a saint? No. I've never read about armed revolutionaries that were. Even our own founding fathers did some shitty things, especially to the natives that were their erstwhile allies, although they were much better than most. The vast majority are vicious, dangerous, capable men with a lust for power in the wrong place at the right time to get the upper hand on a slightly different monster. Mandela was faced with elitist racist fascists who kept power with terror and violence, and so he turned to pretty much the one and only anti-establishment movement of the time that promised something a hell of a lot better, took the help provided by that faction, and gave his oppressors a dose of their own medicine. It was hideous from both sides. I don't doubt he murdered people. I don't doubt he blew up busloads of children. I also know for a fact that the Transvaal government murdered blacks pretty prodigiously, children, adults, you name it. They don't get to claim the moral high ground, not even fucking close. Your nation created a monster and then screamed at the injustice of the consequences of their own actions. Not one fucking shred of sympathy. Not now, not ever. Rhodesia I feel bad for. Mugabe I hate. Apartheid South Africa was a despicable, unforgivable place. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This is what pisses me off, as a South African the rest of the World compares apartheid SA to the Nazis, you make it seem as if the cops drove around all night and broke into blacks homes and killed the lot of them. The truth is, yes the police went around and took out some blacks a lot of them, most if not all of these targets were ANC (A recognized terrorist group) and ANC sympathizers, there were very few random knock and shoots, what do you think, we had millions of cops with out anything else to do? Their targets were terrorists, the World media made it seem it was all of the black population but they were after the terrs. Was apartheid wrong? Yes it was, was it the only way to keep savage behavior off the streets and out of communities (The same behavior that we see there now) yes it was at that time I'm going to say this as diplomatically as I can... ...if the only way your country could figure out how to maintain law and order was to subjugate the majority of the population, strip them of fundamental human rights, encode in your laws that they were less than human, and subject them to some of the most vicious tyranny of the 20th century, then your fucked up country run by small-minded racist fucking tyrants deserved to fucking fail and collapse in fucking bloody anarchy and I have no fucking sympathy at all. You may not realize it, but your arguments are eerily similar to some of the justifications captured Nazi leadership gave for the anti-Jewish Nuremberg Laws and forced relocation of undesirables to ghettos and concentration camps. "We HAD to, or they would have destroyed each other and us all! They're savages who consume nations! It was the only way to preserve the state!." Your whining is nothing more than bullshit excuses for brutal tyranny. The only real difference, as was pointed out earlier, is that your government didn't go as far as extermination camps. But, again, a lack of infrastructure does not absolve you. You are making excuses for the unforgivable and I have no sympathy for the fate of your nation as it faces the consequences of its sins, as terrible and self-destructive as they may be. Was Mandela a saint? No. I've never read about armed revolutionaries that were. Even our own founding fathers did some shitty things, especially to the natives that were their erstwhile allies, although they were much better than most. The vast majority are vicious, dangerous, capable men with a lust for power in the wrong place at the right time to get the upper hand on a slightly different monster. Mandela was faced with elitist racist fascists who kept power with terror and violence, and so he turned to pretty much the one and only anti-establishment movement of the time that promised something a hell of a lot better, took the help provided by that faction, and gave his oppressors a dose of their own medicine. It was hideous from both sides. I don't doubt he murdered people. I don't doubt he blew up busloads of children. I also know for a fact that the Transvaal government murdered blacks pretty prodigiously, children, adults, you name it. They don't get to claim the moral high ground, not even fucking close. Your nation created a monster and then screamed at the injustice of the consequences of their own actions. Not one fucking shred of sympathy. Not now, not ever. Rhodesia I feel bad for. Mugabe I hate. Apartheid South Africa was a despicable, unforgivable place. Hardly unforgivable. Certainly petty apartheid was wrong (although not monstrously so), but minority rule, which you also seem to rail against, certainly was not. And the typical black African is, culturally, a savage; he has but a thin veneer of civilization placed upon him, and then only thanks to the Europeans who settled the place and built the country out of nothing. You simply cannot give a majority with that character the reigns and expect anything good. Either you have to have minority rule, or you have to have separation (which was what grand apartheid was about), and perhaps even both. Africa is a different situation when it comes to rule, something many outside of it don't seem to understand (and probably never will). And to compare our Founders to Mandela is to engage in absurdity. There is hardly any comparison, and certainly in terms of conduct there is no comparison. Our War of Independence took place before the first modern revolution, which took place in 1789; it is in the spirit of the latter that later revolutionaries, including Mandela, waged their battles. It sowed the seeds for Marxism and related ideologies. It should also be noted that many of the people (perhaps the majority) killed by Mandela and his comrades were blacks, not whites, as was the case in Rhodesia. |
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Posted: 12/5/2013 11:40:34 PM EDT
[#15]
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South Africa oppressed blacks under apartheid, it was wrong and there's no way to argue that it was right. As bad as it was, south Africa was a very successful country as far as African nations went. Unemployment rate in the 5%-8%, good economic growth, low crime rates and the like. Then , when Mandela led the revolt, he/they instituted a communist, corrupt government. Now EVERYONE in SA suffers. Unemployment in 1980 was 8%, today it is in the 30% range. Violent crime has skyrocketed and the AVERAGE South African is much worse off. Blacks might be 'free' in a post-apartheid state, but for the vast majority, most are in worse shape than they were 30 years ago. And in many respects, South Africa has actually become less free. |
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Posted: 12/5/2013 11:46:02 PM EDT
[#16]
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You have said what I have been trying to say, you just articulated it better, that is what my black friends and their parents would tell us, my mom worked with a black lady and they got along just fine, my mom came home one day couldn't believe what her black friend had told her, that they preferred the apartheid government more because now we were all even more fucked than before. During apartheid they all had electricity and running water and regardless what you all read about and saw on the news, they had jobs and healthcare, the white government who hated them so much spent millions building schools for them and hospitals , now they have nothing, the schools have been burnt down, the hospitals are abandons in most places and the corruption has led most place to be lucky to have electricity for more then 6 months at a time. Before we left, we were told by black that they felt worse off since Mandela took over and he few Zulus I spoke too were downright terrified. The ANC was to the Zulu what Hussein was to the Kurds. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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South Africa oppressed blacks under apartheid, it was wrong and there's no way to argue that it was right. As bad as it was, south Africa was a very successful country as far as African nations went. Unemployment rate in the 5%-8%, good economic growth, low crime rates and the like. Then , when Mandela led the revolt, he/they instituted a communist, corrupt government. Now EVERYONE in SA suffers. Unemployment in 1980 was 8%, today it is in the 30% range. Violent crime has skyrocketed and the AVERAGE South African is much worse off. Blacks might be 'free' in a post-apartheid state, but for the vast majority, most are in worse shape than they were 30 years ago. You have said what I have been trying to say, you just articulated it better, that is what my black friends and their parents would tell us, my mom worked with a black lady and they got along just fine, my mom came home one day couldn't believe what her black friend had told her, that they preferred the apartheid government more because now we were all even more fucked than before. During apartheid they all had electricity and running water and regardless what you all read about and saw on the news, they had jobs and healthcare, the white government who hated them so much spent millions building schools for them and hospitals , now they have nothing, the schools have been burnt down, the hospitals are abandons in most places and the corruption has led most place to be lucky to have electricity for more then 6 months at a time. Before we left, we were told by black that they felt worse off since Mandela took over and he few Zulus I spoke too were downright terrified. The ANC was to the Zulu what Hussein was to the Kurds. I have heard that if it ever came to outright bloodshed in the future, that the Zulus would probably side with the whites and Asians. |
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Posted: 12/5/2013 11:47:26 PM EDT
[#17]
I haven't bothered looking through all 11 pages, but is there some real bona fide info or articles to read on what he's actually done? His wiki page doesn't really have a controversies section on him. Not that Wikipedia is to be trusted but I place it above arfcom GD.
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Posted: 12/5/2013 11:48:09 PM EDT
[#18]
Lol. Mandela wasn't a saint, but he fought back against a system that marginalized him and counted his vote as less than his fellow citizens. And for this he's a "terrist". The risible argument seems to go that since they were better off before, they should have just accepted their yoke. By this logic, if we get a good totalitarian government running here nobody should fight back because the trains running on time is more important than your fundamental freedom to vote.
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Posted: 12/5/2013 11:50:04 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And in many respects, South Africa has actually become less free. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: South Africa oppressed blacks under apartheid, it was wrong and there's no way to argue that it was right. As bad as it was, south Africa was a very successful country as far as African nations went. Unemployment rate in the 5%-8%, good economic growth, low crime rates and the like. Then , when Mandela led the revolt, he/they instituted a communist, corrupt government. Now EVERYONE in SA suffers. Unemployment in 1980 was 8%, today it is in the 30% range. Violent crime has skyrocketed and the AVERAGE South African is much worse off. Blacks might be 'free' in a post-apartheid state, but for the vast majority, most are in worse shape than they were 30 years ago. And in many respects, South Africa has actually become less free. So from what I gather from you guys, the new rule is accept the yoke of oppression as long as unemployment and crime stay low. Wow, PSA: The more you know!
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Posted: 12/5/2013 11:53:40 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So from what I gather from you guys, the new rule is accept the yoke of oppression as long as unemployment and crime stay low. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: South Africa oppressed blacks under apartheid, it was wrong and there's no way to argue that it was right. As bad as it was, south Africa was a very successful country as far as African nations went. Unemployment rate in the 5%-8%, good economic growth, low crime rates and the like. Then , when Mandela led the revolt, he/they instituted a communist, corrupt government. Now EVERYONE in SA suffers. Unemployment in 1980 was 8%, today it is in the 30% range. Violent crime has skyrocketed and the AVERAGE South African is much worse off. Blacks might be 'free' in a post-apartheid state, but for the vast majority, most are in worse shape than they were 30 years ago. And in many respects, South Africa has actually become less free. So from what I gather from you guys, the new rule is accept the yoke of oppression as long as unemployment and crime stay low. Wow, PSA: The more you know! Statists gonna state. |
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Posted: 12/5/2013 11:54:34 PM EDT
[#21]
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What is an atrocity is the fact that this commie POS is getting celebrated by most of the idiots in this country right now and our worthless president is singing his praises and ordering flags at half mast. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I know, like most of Arfcom, that if I were a black South African living under Apartheid that I would have accepted my second class citizenship without the least complaint. It justifies some form of opposition, but not Marxism, terrorism, the killing of innocents, extreme brutality, and the creation of an even worse government than what was being opposed. I personally don't have a problem with violent revolution in the face of atrocities such as apartheid. Atrocity is a very strong word. Definitely not a generally applicable term when it comes to apartheid. And revolution, in the modern sense, really isn't justifiable, especially the methods involved here. In this case it was a revolution against civilization itself; now that that has largely been removed, we are seeing the predictable results in that country. What is an atrocity is the fact that this commie POS is getting celebrated by most of the idiots in this country right now and our worthless president is singing his praises and ordering flags at half mast. Whatever one wants to call it, it is certainly disgusting. |
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Posted: 12/5/2013 11:57:07 PM EDT
[#22]
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So from what I gather from you guys, the new rule is accept the yoke of oppression as long as unemployment and crime stay low. Wow, PSA: The more you know! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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South Africa oppressed blacks under apartheid, it was wrong and there's no way to argue that it was right. As bad as it was, south Africa was a very successful country as far as African nations went. Unemployment rate in the 5%-8%, good economic growth, low crime rates and the like. Then , when Mandela led the revolt, he/they instituted a communist, corrupt government. Now EVERYONE in SA suffers. Unemployment in 1980 was 8%, today it is in the 30% range. Violent crime has skyrocketed and the AVERAGE South African is much worse off. Blacks might be 'free' in a post-apartheid state, but for the vast majority, most are in worse shape than they were 30 years ago. And in many respects, South Africa has actually become less free. So from what I gather from you guys, the new rule is accept the yoke of oppression as long as unemployment and crime stay low. Wow, PSA: The more you know! They are quite literally less free than they were before. They just exchanged the ANC for the National Party. The removal of many race-based laws and restrictions only gives the façade of greater freedom, when the fact is that laws were passed reducing freedom in pretty much every other area. The increase in crime (especially violent crime), corruption, unemployment, etc. is on top of that loss of freedom. |
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Posted: 12/5/2013 11:59:26 PM EDT
[#23]
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Lol. Mandela wasn't a saint, but he fought back against a system that marginalized him and counted his vote as less than his fellow citizens. And for this he's a "terrist". The risible argument seems to go that since they were better off before, they should have just accepted their yoke. By this logic, if we get a good totalitarian government running here nobody should fight back because the trains running on time is more important than your fundamental freedom to vote. Yeah, you Americans were far better off under British rule |
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Posted: 12/6/2013 12:02:15 AM EDT
[#24]
I could care less about what is going on over there. What pisses me off is the overlaying idea that, somehow, that trainwreck in SA is somehow mirrored/ parallel to our situation here in the US. That whole episode is something that should occur here. I don't care if he was a saint, I find it disconcerting that so many find strength in that story.
I've been called a 'white pride' person by one of the site staff (got a ban for it) but, truth be told, I'm a little troubled by the storm clouds on the horizon. |
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Posted: 12/6/2013 12:06:38 AM EDT
[#25]
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So from what I gather from you guys, the new rule is accept the yoke of oppression as long as unemployment and crime stay low. Wow, PSA: The more you know! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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South Africa oppressed blacks under apartheid, it was wrong and there's no way to argue that it was right. As bad as it was, south Africa was a very successful country as far as African nations went. Unemployment rate in the 5%-8%, good economic growth, low crime rates and the like. Then , when Mandela led the revolt, he/they instituted a communist, corrupt government. Now EVERYONE in SA suffers. Unemployment in 1980 was 8%, today it is in the 30% range. Violent crime has skyrocketed and the AVERAGE South African is much worse off. Blacks might be 'free' in a post-apartheid state, but for the vast majority, most are in worse shape than they were 30 years ago. And in many respects, South Africa has actually become less free. So from what I gather from you guys, the new rule is accept the yoke of oppression as long as unemployment and crime stay low. Wow, PSA: The more you know! So it's ok to deliberately target and torture civilians as you throw off this "yoke of opression"? |
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Posted: 12/6/2013 12:21:39 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I could care less about what is going on over there. What pisses me off is the overlaying idea that, somehow, that trainwreck in SA is somehow mirrored/ parallel to our situation here in the US. That whole episode is something that should occur here. I don't care if he was a saint, I find it disconcerting that so many find strength in that story. I've been called a 'white pride' person by one of the site staff (got a ban for it) but, truth be told, I'm a little troubled by the storm clouds on the horizon. American blacks live like kings compared to the South African blacks and will continue to do so. If and when the economies of the World hiccup and things go south, everybody's going to be on their own, anyhow. I'll root for anybody who isn't out to stab me and mine in the back. Chris |
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Posted: 12/6/2013 1:10:22 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, I stated that you have a Nazi helmet in your avatar. And I didn't even mention the Iron Cross in the drawing. I Googled it and there's a picture of your helmet without the Frankenstein knobs on the sides and it's dated 1942. So I'll stand by my comment, even though I might be technically off on a minor point. And in light I of what you posted and what I commented about, it is textbook 'irony.' Chris Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You were the one calling me for having a Nazi avatar. Forget about that? No, I stated that you have a Nazi helmet in your avatar. And I didn't even mention the Iron Cross in the drawing. I Googled it and there's a picture of your helmet without the Frankenstein knobs on the sides and it's dated 1942. So I'll stand by my comment, even though I might be technically off on a minor point. And in light I of what you posted and what I commented about, it is textbook 'irony.' Chris Lulz. It's the 1916-pattern "coal scuttle" helmet, complete with mounting bosses for the forehead plate. You know, from WW1? 1914-1918, way pre-Nazi. Almost 20 years pre-Nazi, in fact. And that style of cross has been part of German military and government markings for a very long time. It wasn't a Nazi decoration. Lastly, his avatar is taken from a cartoon depicting the First World War's major events as a comic strip, with drawings of the belligerent nations in their trenches. |
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Posted: 12/6/2013 1:23:27 AM EDT
[#28]
I can understand a guy fighting to free himself but he was HORRIBLE at rebuilding SA.
It is a shithole. He did MURDER people though IIRC and was a terrorist also. I'm torn on this one. I don't like the guy but can understand his anger, UNLESS, the facts I heard all those decades were left wing propaganda. |
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Posted: 12/6/2013 1:29:17 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
..................... Mandela bad does not equal blacks deserve apartheid either, which is what the pointy hat brigade is selling. Apartheid was bad..........there is no denying that. |
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Posted: 12/6/2013 1:29:29 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Would you fight if stripped of the right to vote and forced out of your home at gunpoint? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If UN troops invaded Utah would you accept anti tank rockets from Cuba? If UN troops invaded New York would you murder your neighbor and rape his wife because you wanted to be the resistance leader not him? That a more apt comparison of what this fake "freedom fighter" did. Indeed! No way...clearly the place is way better off now...
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Posted: 12/6/2013 2:10:54 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Playing devil's advocate here…wouldn't WE be the "terrorists" if we resisted a government that decided to classify white gun-owners as sub-human animals fit for no protection under the law and subject to torture and murder without any recourse? I realize this douche-nugget was commy scum, but still... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The man was a terrorist........... He also brought the ANC to leadership in South Africa.......And if you are curious why that is bad? http://youtu.be/6fzRSE_p1YsPlaying devil's advocate here…wouldn't WE be the "terrorists" if we resisted a government that decided to classify white gun-owners as sub-human animals fit for no protection under the law and subject to torture and murder without any recourse? I realize this douche-nugget was commy scum, but still... Again, would you be fighting the "government", or murdering your neighbors? There is a difference. Our own forefathers didn't burn schools filled with children or light their neighbors on fire to fight the British, they shot at the regulars. Had the ANC taken commie arms and fought the SADF,I don't think anyone here would question them. But necklacing your fellow subjugates as an example for being too friendly to a white person doesn't seem like honorable resistance to me. I would hope that if I ever thought that open rebellion was needed that burning my neighbors wouldn't be my answer to an oppressive government. |
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Posted: 12/6/2013 2:12:00 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
........................... Again, would you being fighting the "government", or murdering your neighbors? There is a difference. Our own forefathers didn't burn schools filled with children or light their neighbors on fire to fight the British, they shot at the regulars. Had the ANC taken commie arms and fought the SADF,I don't think anyone here would question them. But necklacing your fellow subjugates as an example for being too friendly to a white person doesn't seem like honorable resistance to me. I would hope that if I ever thought that open rebellion was needed that burning my neighbors wouldn't be my answer to an oppressive government. That's the part that pisses me off about Mandela. |
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Posted: 12/6/2013 2:20:59 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Aimless is black and white. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I was not addressing you, save your white pride gibberish So being proud of my ancestors achievement makes me racist? You've already been marked and your assertion puts the racist label squarely on you. You dislike white people, scoff at their achievments and the 100 of millions of lives saved by their interventions. Why are you on this forum with all us racists? Aimless is black and white. |
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Posted: 12/6/2013 2:23:40 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No way...clearly the place is way better off now... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If UN troops invaded Utah would you accept anti tank rockets from Cuba? If UN troops invaded New York would you murder your neighbor and rape his wife because you wanted to be the resistance leader not him? That a more apt comparison of what this fake "freedom fighter" did. Indeed! No way...clearly the place is way better off now... |
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Posted: 12/6/2013 2:38:35 AM EDT
[#35]
people all over the world will justify whatever reason they want to like mandela...that is fine and that is human nature.
the bigger issue is people all over the world should bounce back to reality and see what mandela gave to SA...what he gave and what he paved the way for is a man named Jacob Zuma. |
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Posted: 12/6/2013 3:01:11 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So it's ok to deliberately target and torture civilians as you throw off this "yoke of oppression"? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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South Africa oppressed blacks under apartheid, it was wrong and there's no way to argue that it was right. As bad as it was, south Africa was a very successful country as far as African nations went. Unemployment rate in the 5%-8%, good economic growth, low crime rates and the like. Then , when Mandela led the revolt, he/they instituted a communist, corrupt government. Now EVERYONE in SA suffers. Unemployment in 1980 was 8%, today it is in the 30% range. Violent crime has skyrocketed and the AVERAGE South African is much worse off. Blacks might be 'free' in a post-apartheid state, but for the vast majority, most are in worse shape than they were 30 years ago. And in many respects, South Africa has actually become less free. So from what I gather from you guys, the new rule is accept the yoke of oppression as long as unemployment and crime stay low. Wow, PSA: The more you know! So it's ok to deliberately target and torture civilians as you throw off this "yoke of oppression"? I'm not being oppressed so i could not answer that. But if waging a war against a population to enact change was your only means of fighting i could understand your thought process. I think we as Americans see life a lot different than most and would sacrifice a lot to save innocent people. Some people don't see the world that way and thankfully i don't live in their world. I guess the point being that saying what you would or would not do in a war for your freedom is all well and good but until your actually in that situation there is no telling the lengths you may or may not go. |
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Posted: 12/6/2013 3:33:05 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryHoly shit I lost 
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Posted: 12/6/2013 3:36:03 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
People who go on about their pride in their race aren't usually high achievers in my experience. Not really the stuff you hear from surgeons, mayors, business owners etc. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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I was not addressing you, save your white pride gibberish So being proud of my ancestors achievement makes me racist? You've already been marked and your assertion puts the racist label squarely on you. You dislike white people, scoff at their achievments and the 100 of millions of lives saved by their interventions. Why are you on this forum with all us racists? In other words, professions that require high amounts of political correctness. |
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Posted: 12/6/2013 3:40:44 AM EDT
[#39]
I guess the question to ask is why are those like him and Che Guevara, all of the sudden, role models for the world to look up to?
Once you answer that you will find what you seek. |
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Posted: 12/6/2013 4:03:08 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And in many respects, South Africa has actually become less free. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
South Africa oppressed blacks under apartheid, it was wrong and there's no way to argue that it was right. As bad as it was, south Africa was a very successful country as far as African nations went. Unemployment rate in the 5%-8%, good economic growth, low crime rates and the like. Then , when Mandela led the revolt, he/they instituted a communist, corrupt government. Now EVERYONE in SA suffers. Unemployment in 1980 was 8%, today it is in the 30% range. Violent crime has skyrocketed and the AVERAGE South African is much worse off. Blacks might be 'free' in a post-apartheid state, but for the vast majority, most are in worse shape than they were 30 years ago. And in many respects, South Africa has actually become less free. And dramatically less healthy under Mandela's rule. South Africa currently ranks the third highest in the world in terms of the TB burden, with an incidence that has increased by 400% over the past 15 years.
South Africa also has one of the highest HIV and TB co-infection rates with an HIV prevalence of almost three-quarters among people with incident tuberculosis. Despite accounting for just 0.7 percent of the global population, the country accounts for 28 percent of the world’s people living with both HIV and TB (WHO, 2009). Crime The 2012-13 statistics released Thursday are the worst in a decade, analysts said. The figures show increases in the crimes South Africans fear most: murder; attempted murder; violent, armed house robbery; and carjacking.
South Africa has some of the world's highest rates of violent crime, with casualty figures mounting like those in a small war. Black police so murdering other blacks is socially acceptable. South African police have been under fire in recent months because of the high number of officer-involved killings, assaults on suspects and other offenses.
On Thursday, a commission looking into the police killing of 34 striking miners at a platinum mine last year said it had obtained documents indicating that the police version of events was "in material respects not the truth." Police officers say they acted in self-defense and had no choice but to open fire when the miners charged their position. The commission accused the officers of falsifying documents related to the incident and concealing others. Where's Bono or Bruce Springsteen now? Violent crime on the rise again in South Africa http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-south-africa-crime-20130919,0,510579.story |
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Posted: 12/6/2013 4:19:11 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quote from S_A_C in another thread: He summed it up nicely. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quote from S_A_C in another thread: He was a che style communist fuckwit, not to mention a militant race bater, and all around black supremacist.
He launched a campaign of terrorism in South Africa, then caused untold deaths, suffering, and destruction. He was a darling of the global left, and ultimately was able to creat enough support through the propaganda of his liberal (communist) allies to force South Africa to capitulate. What followed was a purge, and persecution of White South Africans, and the complete communist takeover of South Africa. South Africa went from the wealthiest, and most stable country on the African continent, a shining beacon of freedom, and the free market, a first world country that was a strong American ally, that was once called "the bread basket of Africa" because it's abundant crops once fed nearly the entire continent, to being another third world African hellhole, run by communist pricks with a destroyed infrastructure, and economy, and famine. Today South Africa is known as the rape capital of the world where 3, out of every 4 women report being raped, most repeatedly. This change is do to mandella. He summed it up nicely. I wonder if they will celebrate Mugabe as well, because of him Africa (particularly Zimbabwe) starves now. Where they used to feed millions of people in Africa. |
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Posted: 12/6/2013 4:27:31 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wonder if they will celebrate Mugabe as well, because of him Africa (particularly Zimbabwe) starves now. Where they used to feed millions of people in Africa. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quote from S_A_C in another thread: He was a che style communist fuckwit, not to mention a militant race bater, and all around black supremacist. He launched a campaign of terrorism in South Africa, then caused untold deaths, suffering, and destruction. He was a darling of the global left, and ultimately was able to creat enough support through the propaganda of his liberal (communist) allies to force South Africa to capitulate. What followed was a purge, and persecution of White South Africans, and the complete communist takeover of South Africa. South Africa went from the wealthiest, and most stable country on the African continent, a shining beacon of freedom, and the free market, a first world country that was a strong American ally, that was once called "the bread basket of Africa" because it's abundant crops once fed nearly the entire continent, to being another third world African hellhole, run by communist pricks with a destroyed infrastructure, and economy, and famine. Today South Africa is known as the rape capital of the world where 3, out of every 4 women report being raped, most repeatedly. This change is do to mandella. He summed it up nicely. I wonder if they will celebrate Mugabe as well, because of him Africa (particularly Zimbabwe) starves now. Where they used to feed millions of people in Africa. |
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Posted: 12/6/2013 4:37:46 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sean Hanity is currently fellating Mandella's memory. Says Mandella "saved" SA. Says he had 'vision'. I think I'm gonna puke. just what the fuck was hannity thinking yesterday
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Posted: 12/6/2013 4:39:50 AM EDT
[#44]
I cannot fucking believe that the FACT that Mandela was a terrorist, communist piece of shit is not common knowledge......I weep for the future of this country the world....the light is growing dim.....
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Posted: 12/6/2013 4:44:25 AM EDT
[#45]
I have a female friend who was sent to SA for work. She was shocked to see that not only must she have male escorts to and from work for saftey, but that she also sleeps in a rape cage a night.
Barred windows and entrance, and her bedroom has a barred door as well and she has to sleep in a basically a prison cell at night to assure her saftey. So things are pretty messed up there. Apartheid was bad, but at least things worked the lights the plumbing, the streets were cleaned up, you could get from place to place and basically run your life on a daily basis Even if you were black. Now not so much, the place is a wreck. Hopefully they can sort it out, I'm not hopeful. given how the rest of Africa looks and they don't have apartheid baggage. It appears that fact that they have anything resembling modern life is because the evil white man built it. Good bye mandela, tell lucifer hello. |
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Posted: 12/6/2013 4:44:41 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: just what the fuck was hannity thinking yesterday Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Sean Hanity is currently fellating Mandella's memory. Says Mandella "saved" SA. Says he had 'vision'. I think I'm gonna puke. just what the fuck was hannity thinking yesterday He was thinking that he is an entertainer and that pissing off the vast majority of his simpleton audience would be a bad idea. Better get on the Mandela fellatio train to keep his populist cred.
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Posted: 12/6/2013 4:46:00 AM EDT
[#47]
double tap
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Posted: 12/6/2013 4:47:11 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
... Where's Bono or Bruce Springsteen now? ... Bono is all over it this morning, praising Mandela as a mentor for his ideas that poverty is intentionally created by the bad white people. |
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Posted: 12/6/2013 4:48:41 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol. Mandela wasn't a saint, but he fought back against a system that marginalized him and counted his vote as less than his fellow citizens. And for this he's a "terrist". The risible argument seems to go that since they were better off before, they should have just accepted their yoke. By this logic, if we get a good totalitarian government running here nobody should fight back because the trains running on time is more important than your fundamental freedom to vote. which is exactly the case today in the USA. As for SA Why couldn't the ANC keep things running, all the systems were there and the people? |
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Posted: 12/6/2013 4:48:45 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Too stupid to warrant a serious response. Afrikaner's were hard core racists, besides their positive traits. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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... Apartheid was about keeping tribal war from raging across the country. ... Too stupid to warrant a serious response. Afrikaner's were hard core racists, besides their positive traits. PC HORSESHIT. Many of the South African Special Forces-- Selous, 32 Batallion etc.... were black. Do mortal enemies usually trust their security with their "enemies" and those they despise? Jesus Christ the fucking brainwashing is pathetic. |
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