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Posted: 11/13/2014 1:19:51 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My MSAR's trigger is not bad at all... Its definitely the most enjoyable rifle I own now. Are MSARs' even produced now? I ask because last time I heard of them, they were closing up shop. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 1:25:11 PM EDT
[#2]
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Nope. I don't understand the appeal of a rifle with a short barrel.  Just use a Glock if you need a barrel less than 16-18".Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If AR/M4 pattern SBR's suddenly could be available without a tax stamp, would our fascination with bullpups end? Nope. I don't understand the appeal of a rifle with a short barrel. Just use a Glock if you need a barrel less than 16-18".yeah 5.56 out of an M4 is totally 9mm status
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Posted: 11/13/2014 1:25:30 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Electric triggers - exactly what you want in a reliable combat rifle! BATF would love it too. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: In regards to the trigger performance: why not switch to piezoelectric trigger. Design the system so you have a nice clean break, the impulse is then transmitted to the sear to get it to release (havent worked out the details on that part yet). the only issues I can see with that type of decoupling is how do you get full auto and mean time between failure on the crystal in the actual trigger mechanism Electric triggers - exactly what you want in a reliable combat rifle! BATF would love it too. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 2:06:07 PM EDT
[#4]
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He seems to handle it just fine. So you can shoot lefty with a bullpup. You just can't be a giant wuss. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm not having that problem when shooting lefty. It doesn't shoot hot steaming loads into your face like this?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIDgXje5fds
I can just imagine someone yelling, shooting and brass going down his throat lol. Thats hot. He seems to handle it just fine. So you can shoot lefty with a bullpup. You just can't be a giant wuss. Teeth are for fags & silky boys. You can spot a fancy lad a mile away by his precious little unbroken teeth. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 2:08:51 PM EDT
[#5]
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Seems like a lot of effort. I'd have to get out my foldy, open the door, pull out a cooly of beer, decide between a pup, a shotty and a fortay to put on my lap..... Meh. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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All those are more expensive than a pup.... Do you prefer Pups or Shottys for Home Defizzle? Foh rizzle. Shouldn't you be sitting on your front lawn chasing kids away? Seems like a lot of effort. I'd have to get out my foldy, open the door, pull out a cooly of beer, decide between a pup, a shotty and a fortay to put on my lap..... Meh. Do you likey Remmys or Mossys? I don't shooty shottys much. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 2:09:28 PM EDT
[#6]
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Teeth are for fags & silky boys. You can spot a fancy lad a mile away by his precious little unbroken teeth. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm not having that problem when shooting lefty. It doesn't shoot hot steaming loads into your face like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIDgXje5fds
I can just imagine someone yelling, shooting and brass going down his throat lol. Thats hot. He seems to handle it just fine. So you can shoot lefty with a bullpup. You just can't be a giant wuss. Teeth are for fags & silky boys. You can spot a fancy lad a mile away by his precious little unbroken teeth. Ill bet a box of donuts that guy took his deflector off. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 2:10:45 PM EDT
[#7]
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It would be a solid state trigger, no digital electronics Quote HistoryQuoted:
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In regards to the trigger performance: why not switch to piezoelectric trigger. Design the system so you have a nice clean break, the impulse is then transmitted to the sear to get it to release (havent worked out the details on that part yet). the only issues I can see with that type of decoupling is how do you get full auto and mean time between failure on the crystal in the actual trigger mechanism Electric triggers - exactly what you want in a reliable combat rifle! BATF would love it too. It's still electric - with all the problems (and legal hurdles) that come with that. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 2:12:39 PM EDT
[#8]
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Oh Bullpup how have you failed us? Let us count the ways: 1) Seriously silly pricing 2) Slow magazine changes 3) Can't change stock length (for armor or body size) 4) A trigger that belongs on a stapler not a rifle 5) as pointed out a lack of replacement parts. 6) ergonomics usually not up to snuff 7) Generally can't switch shoulders at will w/o getting brass in the face. Only FN seems to address this issue. FAMAS? Other than that they're great. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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SBR OAL, with a carbine/rifle length barrel...seems like a win win. Oh Bullpup how have you failed us? Let us count the ways: 1) Seriously silly pricing 2) Slow magazine changes 3) Can't change stock length (for armor or body size) 4) A trigger that belongs on a stapler not a rifle 5) as pointed out a lack of replacement parts. 6) ergonomics usually not up to snuff 7) Generally can't switch shoulders at will w/o getting brass in the face. Only FN seems to address this issue. FAMAS? Other than that they're great. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 2:23:38 PM EDT
[#9]
I love mine....
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Posted: 11/13/2014 2:24:17 PM EDT
[#10]
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Posted: 11/13/2014 2:28:15 PM EDT
[#11]
The bullpup is the best....
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Posted: 11/13/2014 2:28:55 PM EDT
[#12]
Especially in Shotgun Form
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Posted: 11/13/2014 2:32:35 PM EDT
[#13]
I'd say price and the trigger.
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Posted: 11/13/2014 2:33:43 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ask HK how the move away from metallic cartridges worked for them. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The real mystery is why aren't Star Wars style blasters being developed. Isn't it time we move away from metallic cartridges? Ask HK how the move away from metallic cartridges worked for them. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 2:35:41 PM EDT
[#15]
The ergonomics suck.
The triggers suck. The balance sucks. The mag changes suck. The price sucks. They point like ass. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 2:38:54 PM EDT
[#16]
bad ergonomics
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Posted: 11/13/2014 2:39:08 PM EDT
[#17]
Shooting a bullpup off the bench is awkward. And since 99% of folks at the range shoot off of a rest of some sort, they would have no idea how to actually shoot standing, offhand. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 2:41:22 PM EDT
[#18]
They are an oddity, but I have fun with them. I currently have an FS2000, PS90 and just bought an AUG A3 M1. Price is the biggest down fall for most people I'm sure and all the other little bullpup issues are legitimate gripes. I'll probably end up with a Tavor too but only because I want to play with one not because they are the be all end all of rifles.
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Posted: 11/13/2014 2:45:03 PM EDT
[#19]
I like my Walther g22, but it needs larger mags.
I'd probably own an Aug if their price was more reasonable... |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 2:51:29 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The real reason? Shooting a bullpup off the bench is awkward. And since 99% of folks at the range shoot off of a rest of some sort, they would have no idea how to actually shoot standing, offhand. 
Or could it be that almost everyone on here is a high speed operator? |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 2:52:12 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The real reason? Shooting a bullpup off the bench is awkward. And since 99% of folks at the range shoot off of a rest of some sort, they would have no idea how to actually shoot standing, offhand. lol |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 2:53:10 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The ergonomics suck. The triggers suck. The balance sucks. The mag changes suck. The price sucks. They point like ass. Have you ever bullpup'd bro? Let me guess you use the term "manual at arms" quite often dontcha? |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 2:55:23 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That is gorgeous  Quote History |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 2:56:12 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The ergonomics suck. The triggers suck. The balance sucks. The mag changes suck. The price sucks. They point like ass. Sounds like you are the type that likes the taste of penis. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 2:58:17 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope. I don't understand the appeal of a rifle with a short barrel. Just use a Glock if you need a barrel less than 16-18".Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If AR/M4 pattern SBR's suddenly could be available without a tax stamp, would our fascination with bullpups end? Nope. I don't understand the appeal of a rifle with a short barrel. Just use a Glock if you need a barrel less than 16-18".
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Posted: 11/13/2014 2:58:27 PM EDT
[#26]
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Sounds like you are the type that likes the taste of penis. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The ergonomics suck. The triggers suck. The balance sucks. The mag changes suck. The price sucks. They point like ass.
Sounds like you are the type that likes the taste of penis. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 2:59:28 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm split between adding a Tavor or a Larue AR to my collection. As much as I like my Tavor, I say go LaRue first then Tavor. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:01:14 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
<a href="http://s117.photobucket.com/user/krotty/media/hunting/Picture054.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o68/krotty/hunting/Picture054.jpg</a> guess I'm a nobody. .. and I'm ok with that Quote HistoryQuoted:
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. Why hasn't anyone made an "AR priced" bullpup yet? Bushmaster did, for a long time - and NOBODY bought it. <a href="http://s117.photobucket.com/user/krotty/media/hunting/Picture054.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o68/krotty/hunting/Picture054.jpg</a> guess I'm a nobody. .. and I'm ok with that Me too! 
I've owned an M17S for a looong time (got mine modded by Kurt), and was a staunch defender of bullpups on ARFCOM long before they were cool. Here's mine: 
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:01:25 PM EDT
[#29]
Personally I do not care for them because:
1.) Cost. 2.) Ergonomics 3.) Muzzle blast too close to my face. 4.) Shitty balance for offhand/iron sight shooting. 5.) What's a bayonet?
I do not ever foresee one in my collection. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:02:12 PM EDT
[#30]
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Have you ever bullpup'd bro? Let me guess you use the term "manual at arms" quite often dontcha? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The ergonomics suck. The triggers suck. The balance sucks. The mag changes suck. The price sucks. They point like ass. Have you ever bullpup'd bro? Let me guess you use the term "manual at arms" quite often dontcha? Did you mean manual of arms? Or man at arms? Or did you spell Manuel wrong? I've bullpup'd. I sold them a long time ago. I collect odd, weird & impractical guns as well now, so they might have a place in my collection again one day. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:02:39 PM EDT
[#31]
My only experience is with an FS2000. IMHO there are too many compromises for a slight length advantage.
And in the case of the FS2000 way overcomplicated. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:02:41 PM EDT
[#32]
I just dont like how the weight was distributed on the ones that Ive been able to get my hands on. Its something that I could get used to, but not something that Im crazy about.
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:04:45 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The ergonomics suck. The triggers suck. The balance sucks. The mag changes suck. The price sucks. They point like ass. Depends on the bullpup. There are plenty with good triggers, good ergonomics, and the magazine release in the same place as an AR. If you're saying that you have trouble reloading the actual magazine, that's a training issue. It's only a problem if you're prone, and even then, it's not that big of a deal. What exactly do you mean by they point like ass? As to this, . The balance is more rearward which makes it easier to transition between targets. Less front heft is better.
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:07:17 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did you mean manual of arms? Or man at arms? Or did you spell Manuel wrong? I've bullpup'd. I sold them a long time ago. I collect odd, weird & impractical guns as well now, so they might have a place in my collection again one day. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The ergonomics suck. The triggers suck. The balance sucks. The mag changes suck. The price sucks. They point like ass. Have you ever bullpup'd bro? Let me guess you use the term "manual at arms" quite often dontcha? Did you mean manual of arms? Or man at arms? Or did you spell Manuel wrong? I've bullpup'd. I sold them a long time ago. I collect odd, weird & impractical guns as well now, so they might have a place in my collection again one day. Whatever it is its gayer than two boys fucking! Never heard that term my entire time in the Army. I wonder if its another thing the 300lb HSLD operators use to make themselves sound important! Also where can I pick up one of these manuals? I know Baron von Steuben wrote one a while ago. Amazon maybe? |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:08:55 PM EDT
[#35]
The half-assed responses in this thread are amazing. One of the earlier posters summarized bullpup shortcomings as follows
1) Seriously silly pricing My response---perhaps silly pricing compared to a run-of-the-mill AR series, but compare the pricing to some of the other more esoteric autoloaders like a SCAR. The pricing isn't so out of line. 2) Slow magazine changes Yeah, when compared to an AR design. Compared to almost any OTHER autoloader, they are on par. Show me a fast mag change on an AK, please. 3) Can't change stock length (for armor or body size) True, but I don't wear body armor, since I am not a Tier One "Operator" (which is the case for 90% of the guys on this forum  ) Then again, fixed stock AR series don' t have adjustable length of pull either, and nobody complains about those.
4) A trigger that belongs on a stapler not a rifle Compared to an AR, perhaps. But compare it to say, a G3. Now tell me which one has a worse trigger. (Factory G3 triggers came in at OVER 10 lbs by Bundeswehr specification!) 5) as pointed out a lack of replacement parts. Yeah, and spare parts for a SCAR are common as dirt. 
6) ergonomics usually not up to snuff Measuring ergos against the AR series will make ANY other rifle be in second place, since the AR is probably the most ergonomic rifle in history. I will grant you that. But the ergos of the newer bullpups are not horrible, and certainly are no worse than an AK.... 7) Generally can't switch shoulders at will w/o getting brass in the face. This I will grant you. Thankfully, I am right handed. 
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:09:01 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The ergonomics suck. The triggers suck. The balance sucks. The mag changes suck. The price sucks. They point like ass. 
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:10:21 PM EDT
[#37]
Because they don't look cool in photos next to fedoras, pot helmets, or shemaghs.
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:14:43 PM EDT
[#38]
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Me too!
I've owned an M17S for a looong time (got mine modded by Kurt), and was a staunch defender of bullpups on ARFCOM long before they were cool. Here's mine: http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=7808 Quote HistoryQuoted:
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. Why hasn't anyone made an "AR priced" bullpup yet? Bushmaster did, for a long time - and NOBODY bought it. <a href="http://s117.photobucket.com/user/krotty/media/hunting/Picture054.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o68/krotty/hunting/Picture054.jpg</a> guess I'm a nobody. .. and I'm ok with that Me too!
I've owned an M17S for a looong time (got mine modded by Kurt), and was a staunch defender of bullpups on ARFCOM long before they were cool. Here's mine: http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=7808 You owe it to yourself to get the new K&M M17S. The trigger alone is worth the price; it is, hands down, the best bullpup trigger available. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:16:35 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The half-assed responses in this thread are amazing. One of the earlier posters summarized bullpup shortcomings as follows 1) Seriously silly pricing My response---perhaps silly pricing compared to a run-of-the-mill AR series, but compare the pricing to some of the other more esoteric autoloaders like a SCAR. The pricing isn't so out of line. 2) Slow magazine changes Yeah, when compared to an AR design. Compared to almost any OTHER autoloader, they are on par. Show me a fast mag change on an AK, please. 3) Can't change stock length (for armor or body size) True, but I don't wear body armor, since I am not a Tier One "Operator" (which is the case for 90% of the guys on this forum ) Then again, fixed stock AR series don' t have adjustable length of pull either, and nobody complains about those.
4) A trigger that belongs on a stapler not a rifle Compared to an AR, perhaps. But compare it to say, a G3. Now tell me which one has a worse trigger. (Factory G3 triggers came in at OVER 10 lbs by Bundeswehr specification!) 5) as pointed out a lack of replacement parts. Yeah, and spare parts for a SCAR are common as dirt.
6) ergonomics usually not up to snuff Measuring ergos against the AR series will make ANY other rifle be in second place, since the AR is probably the most ergonomic rifle in history. I will grant you that. But the ergos of the newer bullpups are not horrible, and certainly are no worse than an AK.... 7) Generally can't switch shoulders at will w/o getting brass in the face. This I will grant you. Thankfully, I am right handed.
so basically what you're saying is that ARs take a big steaming shit on bullpups |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:17:29 PM EDT
[#40]
I was in a carbine class this summer and one guy was running an AUG. He was slower on everything and did not perform well at all compared to the AR's in class. The 2nd day he brought his AR and shot that all day. LOL
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:19:42 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was in a carbine class this summer and one guy was running an AUG. He was slower on everything and did not perform well at all compared to the AR's in class. The 2nd day he brought his AR and shot that all day. LOL Well shit! This is definitive proof that bullpups do indeed suck! Im off to sell mine right now! 
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:21:20 PM EDT
[#42]
Kurt did a few Bushmasters for friends of mine. But might I add a couple of points here.
Rifles evolved with the high pressure part in front of your face for a reason. Would you rather it blew up in front of your face or next to it. Trigger should be as close to sear as possible, for a nice pull. Plus now that the action is next to your face the whole ambidextrous thing gets much harder to pull off. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:22:58 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Whatever it is its gayer than two boys fucking! Never heard that term my entire time in the Army. I wonder if its another thing the 300lb HSLD operators use to make themselves sound important! Also where can I pick up one of these manuals? I know Baron von Steuben wrote one a while ago. Amazon maybe? What Army was that? The Costa Rica Army? It's a standard military term dealing with the operation of firearms. If you didn't hear it in the Army at some point (assuming it was the US Army) then I'd guess you were recycled once or twice in Basic? |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:27:23 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryFriend of mine just bought a KSG two days ago, I can't wait to shoot it
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:29:21 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
+1 http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/desert-tech03.jpg There's also the Radom MSBS Bullpup configuration, http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/fb-radom-msbs556-bullpup-demo-02.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Because the FS 2000 failed to live up to expectations. Tactical TUNA! Personally, I'm interested in the new Desert-Tech bullpup.... -ZA +1 http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/desert-tech03.jpg There's also the Radom MSBS Bullpup configuration, http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/fb-radom-msbs556-bullpup-demo-02.jpg What is this? I thought Desert Tech made sniper rifles |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:32:01 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What Army was that? The Costa Rica Army? It's a standard military term dealing with the operation of firearms. If you didn't hear it in the Army at some point (assuming it was the US Army) then I'd guess you were recycled once or twice in Basic? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Whatever it is its gayer than two boys fucking! Never heard that term my entire time in the Army. I wonder if its another thing the 300lb HSLD operators use to make themselves sound important! Also where can I pick up one of these manuals? I know Baron von Steuben wrote one a while ago. Amazon maybe? What Army was that? The Costa Rica Army? It's a standard military term dealing with the operation of firearms. If you didn't hear it in the Army at some point (assuming it was the US Army) then I'd guess you were recycled once or twice in Basic? US Army 89-95. Missed honor grad by a few points. The only manual of arms I know of is when you were marching and doing all the left shoulder, right shoulder, drill and ceremony stuff. Never once was the operation of my M16 called manual of arms when I was in. We had SPORTS for malfunctions (no idea if they still use that). I would love to see an FM or TM calling the operation of your weapon as manual of arms. If you can point me to one I would be much obliged! |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:33:09 PM EDT
[#47]
My head is full of fuck from the responses in this thread.
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:34:31 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
<snip> 3) Can't change stock length (for armor or body size) [/span] True, but I don't wear body armor, since I am not a Tier One "Operator" (which is the case for 90% of the guys on this forum ) Then again, fixed stock AR series don' t have adjustable length of pull either, and nobody complains about those.
[span style='font-weight: bold;'] <snip> My fiancee is about 5' 3". I'm 6' 1". And we actually take our ARs out in the weather, which means Summer in Texas and our version of Winter (which can actually get below freezing). So, we've got huge length of pull difference between us. Add in winter clothes versus summer... There's a reason for adjustable stocks. I also snipped a bunch of "compared to AR" comments. Well, an AR is what most of us are comparing against. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:36:03 PM EDT
[#49]
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What is this? I thought Desert Tech made sniper rifles Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Because the FS 2000 failed to live up to expectations. Tactical TUNA! Personally, I'm interested in the new Desert-Tech bullpup.... -ZA +1 http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/desert-tech03.jpg There's also the Radom MSBS Bullpup configuration, http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/fb-radom-msbs556-bullpup-demo-02.jpg What is this? I thought Desert Tech made sniper rifles Desert Tech announced a bullpup rifle called the MDR at the Shot Show this year. http://deserttech.com/mdr.php It looks neat, but the ejection port looks like it could be a problem. I'm curious how the design actually performs. Kel-Tec also announced their own bullpup that bottom ejects. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/10/16/kel-tec-rdb-bullpup-first-impressions/ |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:37:36 PM EDT
[#50]
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If you want improved ballistics out of an SBR, we've already solved that for you... 300blk, 6.8 SPC, etc etc Maybe that argument held some water 20 years ago when M193 was the "thing", but with modern calibers you don't have to deal with a trade-off anymore. An up-caliber SBR is having your cake AND eating it too Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile LOL. |
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