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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:20:05 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nature and man are both brutal. I'm not suggesting we tear everything down, I really wish people would quit putting words in my mouth on this point. I'm just asking why we can't get the full context of a person's history who is being honored. Yes, I'm well aware several of our founding fathers were slave owners. But several others were not. I can acknowledge the good deeds done by bad people while not forgetting the evils that were done. If you want to call those evils "mistakes" then I would say we should learn from them, and endeavor to make ourselves better by not ignoring them. But to whitewash an evil history completely, as has been done with the two individuals this thread is about; is historical malpractice. I was never taught about the dark pasts of these two men, I was only ever taught about their achievements. I had to do my own research to learn their full pasts to discover what they did. Let's say I am in full agreement with you that something must be done about these monuments and honors to these nazis. Who gets to write the new plaques? Who gets to update the wiki articles or teachings in our schools? What should they say? Should the government be in control? Should we focus on their nazi past or their achievements? |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:21:03 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's the issue at the very heart of this thread. The government has already put bumper lanes on these monuments by whitewashing the dark pasts of these men. If you actually watched the video, that's the main point. No mention has been made of these men's ties to the Nazi party and knowledge (and consent) of the slave labor they employed. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:23:55 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The founding fathers were slave owners. Why are we honoring their accomplishments? See how this can go? Again, I'm well aware several founding fathers were slave owners. They were flawed men, which makes what they accomplished a greater feat in many ways. But it is important to know that they were flawed men, and to not have their "checkered pasts" expunged from public knowledge. Do you see why context is important? |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:26:17 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fuck it then, let's just act outraged and tear it all down. If you don't how this is cancel culture lite then I can't help you. You are the one acting outraged, not me. I'm not advocating for anything to be torn down, except maybe your ignorance. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:26:56 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Again, I'm well aware several founding fathers were slave owners. They were flawed men, which makes what they accomplished a greater feat in many ways. But it is important to know that they were flawed men, and to not have their "checkered pasts" expunged from public knowledge. Do you see why context is important? |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:28:51 AM EDT
[#6]
"Can we beat the Russians to the Moon?"
"Ja Senator, our Germans are better than their Germans." (book and film 'The Right Stuff', many had said something close to it) Americanism surpassed all. A few score krauts fled Soviet advance, some became core personnel for success, yet project and team leaders nearly all American. To this day, what lapped the Russians and surpassed the world by meritorious achievement was the National Will to invest in 400,000 dedicated Workers at 20,000 US Companies working Around the Clock with Unlimited Funding 3,000,000 parts, no two Apollo-Saturn's exactly alike. Here, 5 Rocketdyne engines beneath a 5,028,000 pound Boeing S1-C first stage burning 560,600 gallons of RP-1 Kerosene + LOX in 164 seconds (turbopumps flow rate of 3,418 Gallons/Second, and perfect operational record).    |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:30:44 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are the one acting outraged, not me. I'm not advocating for anything to be torn down, except maybe your ignorance. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Fuck it then, let's just act outraged and tear it all down. If you don't how this is cancel culture lite then I can't help you. You are the one acting outraged, not me. I'm not advocating for anything to be torn down, except maybe your ignorance. Quoted:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrKmDUNi6sYVon Braun and Kurt Debus are just two of the many Nazi scientists who were brought here during operation paperclip. Both of these particular individuals were devout Nazi party members who were well aware of the slave labor being used in their rocket programs. Von Braun and Kurt Debus are honored by NASA and the U.S. government to this day, with their pasts conveniently whitewashed for public consumption. Why? Mark Felton asks this question as well in his video. He wonders why the monuments to Von Braun haven't been torn down like many Confederate monuments. I think that's a good question. OP, if you're trying to get a job at CNN, keep it up, they'll love you. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:30:46 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Obviously their pasts weren't whitewashed if you are here, whinging about it. They are remembered for their massive contributions to this country and to science. Self righteousness with a lack of self reflection is the worst of personality traits. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:30:49 AM EDT
[#9]
The same reason we still buy Porches.
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:32:16 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrKmDUNi6sYVon Braun and Kurt Debus are just two of the many Nazi scientists who were brought here during operation paperclip. Both of these particular individuals were devout Nazi party members who were well aware of the slave labor being used in their rocket programs. Von Braun and Kurt Debus are honored by NASA and the U.S. government to this day, with their pasts conveniently whitewashed for public consumption. Why? Mark Felton asks this question as well in his video. He wonders why the monuments to Von Braun haven't been torn down like many Confederate monuments. I think that's a good question. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:37:42 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I sense you are disturbed we haven't canceled them. Here we go again with people putting words in my mouth. I never said anything should be torn down or canceled. I'm just asking why we still honor these men, to this day, without any context as to their dark pasts. And no, I don't put Von Braun or others like him on the same level as our founding fathers. Im betting Von Braun was in it for the money and himself more than the betterment of all mankind. George Washington risked everything and practically gave everything to found our country. Was he perfect and without fault? No. But history bears this out clearly. It's not so clear in Von Braun's case. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:40:19 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, it isn't and your self righteous 'just asking questions' post makes you look bad. My mistake for making a thread in GD to provoke thought. It certainly provoked something else... |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:45:36 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here we go again with people putting words in my mouth. I never said anything should be torn down or canceled. I'm just asking why we still honor these men, to this day, without any context as to their dark pasts. And no, I don't put Von Braun or others like him on the same level as our founding fathers. Im betting Von Braun was in it for the money and himself more than the betterment of all mankind. George Washington risked everything and practically gave everything to found our country. Was he perfect and without fault? No. But history bears this out clearly. It's not so clear in Von Braun's case. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I sense you are disturbed we haven't canceled them. Here we go again with people putting words in my mouth. I never said anything should be torn down or canceled. I'm just asking why we still honor these men, to this day, without any context as to their dark pasts. And no, I don't put Von Braun or others like him on the same level as our founding fathers. Im betting Von Braun was in it for the money and himself more than the betterment of all mankind. George Washington risked everything and practically gave everything to found our country. Was he perfect and without fault? No. But history bears this out clearly. It's not so clear in Von Braun's case. Maybe I'm a bit skewed but I really believe Von Braun didn't give a fuck who had it or made it. He spent his life learning and designing. When someone who was " the good guys" said they'd fund him.... he took the offer and made an amazing machine. He wanted his designed made and tested. The N-1 proved he made the right choice. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:47:14 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here we go again with people putting words in my mouth. I never said anything should be torn down or canceled. I'm just asking why we still honor these men, to this day, without any context as to their dark pasts. And no, I don't put Von Braun or others like him on the same level as our founding fathers. Im betting Von Braun was in it for the money and himself more than the betterment of all mankind. George Washington risked everything and practically gave everything to found our country. Was he perfect and without fault? No. But history bears this out clearly. It's not so clear in Von Braun's case. If your point was to spread awareness it appears most already know what you know. Mission accomplished (pun intended). If you are worried about people at the NASA museum you could get a megaphone and yell at all the visitors how these dudes were Nazis or something. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:51:09 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Likely not true. But let’s face it: both NASA and going to the moon are gay. Space is fake and gay 
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:52:35 AM EDT
[#16]
People still buy Volkswagens too.
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:55:09 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrKmDUNi6sYVon Braun and Kurt Debus are just two of the many Nazi scientists who were brought here during operation paperclip. Both of these particular individuals were devout Nazi party members who were well aware of the slave labor being used in their rocket programs. Von Braun and Kurt Debus are honored by NASA and the U.S. government to this day, with their pasts conveniently whitewashed for public consumption. Why? Mark Felton asks this question as well in his video. He wonders why the monuments to Von Braun haven't been torn down like many Confederate monuments. I think that's a good question. So you're ok with 3rd Reich Germany beating us to the punch? Or Russia? Don't be a child. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:56:40 AM EDT
[#18]
Random thought. How many fawn over Japanese motors and optics.
How many know what they did to our guys as POWs. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:57:35 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: People still buy Volkswagens too. Hugo boss designed the nazi uniforms. Mauser made rifles for the Wehrmacht. Mercedes made vehicles for nazi Germany. The list goes on and on. We could include American manufacturers if we wanted to. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 1:59:58 AM EDT
[#20]
Also I'm pretty sure most Von Braughn hate is over the "slaves" used at his factory.
How much of the country you live in was built by slaves? How many of the men you revere over their own actions in 1776 owned their own slaves? |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 2:02:41 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Felton’s narration of Wikipedia page ass videos are gay and so is he. Who the fuck cares what those brilliant minds did before they came/were brought to the US. I won’t accept any bad mouthing of Von Braun. Anyone who does is a commie fuck. So are you saying you don’t care if he was making weapons to kill American soldiers, with the ultimate goal of building a rocket capable of striking the the US? One day you’re a Nazi, the next day you’re an American hero! |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 2:06:19 AM EDT
[#22]
Libtard infighting over a low profile prize
More status in maintaining altitude and talking about omg paperclip (still low status), than rousing a crowd to...take down a rocket engineer's statue? Just another page in the conservative playbook, yea pointing out lib hypocrisy and calling them the real racists will work, this time |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 2:07:43 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So are you saying you don’t care if he was making weapons to kill American soldiers, with the ultimate goal of building a rocket capable of striking the the US? Good thing we're not all speaking German  Attached File |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 2:07:46 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So are you saying you don't care if he was making weapons to kill American soldiers, with the ultimate goal of building a rocket capable of striking the the US? |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 2:09:17 AM EDT
[#25]
Oh good. More manufactured outrage.
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Posted: 5/16/2024 2:10:40 AM EDT
[#26]
He had to get funding from somewhere in the 1930s Germany. A lot of his research lead us to getting to the moon and possibly beyond Earth.
I have no problem with their past. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 2:12:54 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So are you saying you don’t care if he was making weapons to kill American soldiers, with the ultimate goal of building a rocket capable of striking the the US? One day you’re a Nazi, the next day you’re an American hero! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Felton’s narration of Wikipedia page ass videos are gay and so is he. Who the fuck cares what those brilliant minds did before they came/were brought to the US. I won’t accept any bad mouthing of Von Braun. Anyone who does is a commie fuck. So are you saying you don’t care if he was making weapons to kill American soldiers, with the ultimate goal of building a rocket capable of striking the the US? One day you’re a Nazi, the next day you’re an American hero! Do not punish scientists and engineers for what politicians do with their inventions. Should the inventer of 8mm mauser hang, 9mm luger? Let's pretend the US lost WWII, should the scientists of the Manhattan project hang? An invention is an invention, a tool is a tool, but an act is an act. A gun is a tool, a rocket is a tool what you do with that tool is an action. Blame the person taking that action or deciding to do it.... not the guy smart enough to invent something new. Maybe we should all condemn the guy who invented cars, do you realize how many have died because cars exist! |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 2:16:30 AM EDT
[#28]
Can we dispense with canceling everything?
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Posted: 5/16/2024 2:21:14 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No one cares. Go find something more productive to do, like watching paint dry, or hitting your hand with a ball peen hammer, or maybe take up challenge pissing. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Your logic is flawed. I didn't say we needed to condemn the good we got out of the space program due to these scientists' contributions. I'm just asking why is it necessary to HONOR these men today. No one cares. Go find something more productive to do, like watching paint dry, or hitting your hand with a ball peen hammer, or maybe take up challenge pissing.  Attached File |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 2:25:36 AM EDT
[#30]
As far as I know Von Braun was not pioneering the systematic extinction of races, just engineering rockets.
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Posted: 5/16/2024 2:26:43 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No one cares. Go find something more productive to do, like watching paint dry, or hitting your hand with a ball peen hammer, or maybe take up challenge pissing. As good a response to any reddit troon history post I just tapped out more letters to hopefully reach a different audience |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 2:29:01 AM EDT
[#32]
Well, then we better stop honoring every single person who ever contributed anything of value or importance to the our great country. Every single one of them.
George Washington owned slaves, as did nearly every single founding father of this country. Benjamin Franklin was a sex addict, who had dozens of mistresses. Woodrow Wilson promote KKK films in the White House. He also popularized segregation. Henry Ford and Charles Lindbergh were anti-Semites, and both were awarded honors from the Nazi's. Should be retroactively concede WWII, since all the B-24's that made the Allied victory possible were made at Ford's Willow Run plant, and personally flight tested by Lindbergh? Helen Keller thought disabled children should be euthanized. Martin Luther King Jr was known for his infidelity and plagiarism. Don't see anyone trying to take down his statues. P.T. Barnum made his career by exploiting African-Americans and people with disabilities. Not to mention the animal cruelty. Thomas Edison stole most of his "inventions" from other engineers working for him. JFK was a womanizer and a drug addict. Dr. Seuss cheated on his sick wife...and then she killed herself. John Kellogg (founder of Kellogg’s cereals) was a vocal eugenicist, and railed against mixed-race relations. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 2:31:03 AM EDT
[#33]
Would you have rather let the Russians put them to work? The war was over and we needed their expertise. They were glad to work for us than the Russians. Get over the self-righteous act.
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Posted: 5/16/2024 2:38:12 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The founding fathers were slave owners. Why are we honoring their accomplishments? See how this can go? Exactly, some were slave owners, get over it. It was over 250 years ago. The American Indians were slave owners and rapists too. It is over, done and we need to move on. Knowing our history so we don't repeat the same mistakes is not the same thing as eternal, self-flagellation. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 2:39:41 AM EDT
[#35]
Two reasons:
My soul is not held down by earth's gravity. I don't use the lounge chair in hotel rooms. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 2:44:13 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryYou do know that was political satire and not a real quote, right? |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 2:59:07 AM EDT
[#37]
A lot of Krauts were in the Nazi party, whether they were perfectly aligned with what Adolf was doing or not. The movement became a juggernaut...you either rolled with it or got rolled over.
Most reading this cannot cast stones if you take the last four years in our country into account. I recall the best meme about the fear mongering of our very recent history read: "If ever wondered what side you would have been on in 1938 Germany...well, now you know." Maybe old Werner wanted all non-Aryans extiguished from the world or maybe he chose an easy way to protect his wife and children from a mad man and his movement. We will never know. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 3:01:13 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you coming to grips that what you thought was true wasn't the full story? Many of us have been there before. Let's say I am in full agreement with you that something must be done about these monuments and honors to these nazis. Who gets to write the new plaques? Who gets to update the wiki articles or teachings in our schools? What should they say? Should the government be in control? Should we focus on their nazi past or their achievements? @Kingdead Only morons think people have to be perfect to be famous, after all, they're perfect, right? The PC of all this controversy is what makes it all absurd. They have an agenda to tear down America and in their warped minds, this is just an excuse. The first slave owner in America was an American Indian. No one is going to burn him in effigy, are they? John Newton was the captain of a slave ship at one time. He later accepted Christ as his Savior and became an abolitionist. Are we going to stop singing, "Amazing Grace?" History teaches us that despite our flaws, God still can use us to do great things. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 3:04:21 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You do know that was political satire and not a real quote, right? Even if the quote is real or fake, who cares? Seems like clinging on to a rotting corpse tbh |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 3:08:17 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrKmDUNi6sYVon Braun and Kurt Debus are just two of the many Nazi scientists who were brought here during operation paperclip. Both of these particular individuals were devout Nazi party members who were well aware of the slave labor being used in their rocket programs. Von Braun and Kurt Debus are honored by NASA and the U.S. government to this day, with their pasts conveniently whitewashed for public consumption. Why? Mark Felton asks this question as well in his video. He wonders why the monuments to Von Braun haven't been torn down like many Confederate monuments. I think that's a good question. Oh shut up! Mark can fuck off, how long do we have to have history used against us? If this is price of “winning” the war, the total obliteration of our culture, rights, history and people, what’s the difference between that and defeat? |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 3:16:51 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You do know that was political satire and not a real quote, right? I can't wait to tell my grand kids about how we used to have these things called "jokes". They are going to think I'm full of shit. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 3:23:03 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrKmDUNi6sYVon Braun and Kurt Debus are just two of the many Nazi scientists who were brought here during operation paperclip. Both of these particular individuals were devout Nazi party members who were well aware of the slave labor being used in their rocket programs. Von Braun and Kurt Debus are honored by NASA and the U.S. government to this day, with their pasts conveniently whitewashed for public consumption. Why? Mark Felton asks this question as well in his video. He wonders why the monuments to Von Braun haven't been torn down like many Confederate monuments. I think that's a good question. @Mad_Anthony There was no whitewashing. Don't act like this is a revelation, it isn't. We knew their past. It was no super duper secret. That is just a revelation for those who fell asleep in history class. It seems your self-righteous epiphany is just a lot of revisionist history smoke-blowing. The Russians were kidnapping German scientists as fast as they could find them to build their nuclear weapons, Sputnik, and more. Is that OK with you? |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 3:32:37 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, then we better stop honoring every single person who ever contributed anything of value or importance to the our great country. Every single one of them. George Washington owned slaves, as did nearly every single founding father of this country. Benjamin Franklin was a sex addict, who had dozens of mistresses. Woodrow Wilson promote KKK films in the White House. He also popularized segregation. Henry Ford and Charles Lindbergh were anti-Semites, and both were awarded honors from the Nazi's. Should be retroactively concede WWII, since all the B-24's that made the Allied victory possible were made at Ford's Willow Run plant, and personally flight tested by Lindbergh? Helen Keller thought disabled children should be euthanized. Martin Luther King Jr was known for his infidelity and plagiarism. Don't see anyone trying to take down his statues. P.T. Barnum made his career by exploiting African-Americans and people with disabilities. Not to mention the animal cruelty. Thomas Edison stole most of his "inventions" from other engineers working for him. JFK was a womanizer and a drug addict. Dr. Seuss cheated on his sick wife...and then she killed herself. John Kellogg (founder of Kellogg’s cereals) was a vocal eugenicist, and railed against mixed-race relations. Most of those are just really based. I think we should leave all the monuments to all those people up. I was going to make exception for MLK but then I remembered they make it easier to figure out which areas of a city you shouldn't...well, anyway. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 3:38:03 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My mistake for making a thread in GD to provoke thought. It certainly provoked something else... Are you proposing an asterisk by the names of famous people with something dark in their lives? How about all the Hollywood actors and directors who were members of the Communist Party? How about the Confederate generals who finally got their heads out of their asses and went on to do great service for the USA? I don't need to be provoked, I know what they did and I know what they did later. I stayed awake in History Class. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 3:41:07 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Most of those are just really based. I think we should leave all the monuments to all those people up. I was going to make exception for MLK but then I remembered they make it easier to figure out which areas of a city you shouldn't...well, anyway. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 3:42:14 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No one cares. Go find something more productive to do, like watching paint dry, or hitting your hand with a ball peen hammer, or maybe take up challenge pissing. 
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Posted: 5/16/2024 3:42:32 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here we go again with people putting words in my mouth. I never said anything should be torn down or canceled. I'm just asking why we still honor these men, to this day, without any context as to their dark pasts. And no, I don't put Von Braun or others like him on the same level as our founding fathers. Im betting Von Braun was in it for the money and himself more than the betterment of all mankind. George Washington risked everything and practically gave everything to found our country. Was he perfect and without fault? No. But history bears this out clearly. It's not so clear in Von Braun's case. BS. I grew up in the 50's. Everyone knew, we were just mature enough not to keep dwelling on it for no further purpose. |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 3:43:29 AM EDT
[#48]
Von Braun was in it for the science...............the guy was designing and developing rockets from the beginning, along with people like Hermann Oberth, Herman Koelle, Eugen Saenger and others..........had the Russians gotten them instead of us, we likely would be really far behind the Russians and never caught up
Saenger was instrumental in lifting body studies and his work on the Silbervogel was the precursor to the Space Shuttle |
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Posted: 5/16/2024 3:51:47 AM EDT
[#49]
Von Braun was a Genius and the Reason we got to the Moon.
The Saturn V was the most powerful Rocket ever envisioned!! I used to love to go look at the Saturn V 1st Stage at the Michoud assembly facility in NOLA east!! 
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Posted: 5/16/2024 3:55:49 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Von Braun was a Genius and the Reason we got to the Moon. The Saturn V was the most powerful Rocket ever envisioned!! I used to love to go look at the Saturn V 1st Stage at the Michoud assembly facility in NOLA east!! |
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