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F14 was too antiquated. It's RCS was massive and its was dubbed the 'flying aluminum cloud'.
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Quoted: This entire line of discussion is aimed at the F-14 fanboys who, in every F-14 related thread on ARFcom, bang the drum about how amazing the F-14 was as a ground attack aircraft. It is a reminder that it wasn't. By any yardstick. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Comparing an F14D with bombs to an F15E is not a fair comparison at all. While the F14 "had" some air to ground capabilities even when it first came out (despite never being put to use until near the end of its life), the "Bombcat" was really just an attempt to get some more life/use out of the Tomcat before its eventual demise. The F15E was *designed* to drop bombs. The F15 series was a better warplane than the F14 in all things, except, maybe long range interception (and frankly the F15 may have been just as good). Guys who flew a "Bombcat" then flew an F15E and saying they didn't know how much the "Bombcat" sucked compared to an F15E is like someone saying they thought their Corvette was a great sports car until they drove a Ferrari and realized how much it sucked. This entire line of discussion is aimed at the F-14 fanboys who, in every F-14 related thread on ARFcom, bang the drum about how amazing the F-14 was as a ground attack aircraft. It is a reminder that it wasn't. By any yardstick. I'm an F14 fanboy and won't disagree with you about it being a crappy ground attack platform. ![]() |
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Quoted: Go look up the range of the F-14 (hint - the Super Hornet actually has a longer ferry range than the Tomcat). The Super Hornet gits a bad rap for range because 1. it's often conflated with the original Hornet, which was short ranged and 2. it's spent its service life lugging around heavy bomb loads deep deep inland. Load it up for A2A and its range is virtually identical to the F14. View Quote Hint-- comformal fuel tanks conform. Its really not a fair comparison. You should be comparing equivalent dates of service, not moving the goal posts with an aircraft that continues to be upgraded to this day. Of course the super hornet gets better range. Youre not comparing 1:1. That said, i understand why the f14 was retired-- $$$. Money to fix its quirks, money to maintain it, need 2 pilots (manpower vs value) larger airframe (deckspace vs value) and cheney ($$$). Everything can be fixed with money they didnt want to invest. Id still debate the f18 being an adequate successor and you cant tell me that a high speed long range interceptor isnt a mission that needs filled, but that ship dem sailed. |
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Time passed the Tomcat up, just like every other aircraft will one day be obsolete. If you are doing anything but comparing it to other assets that could launch and recover on on a carrier, you're wrong.
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Quoted: I work with Super Hornet maintainers who have either come from a Hornet background (legacy or super) or who were F-14 mechanics who transitioned to the Hornet platform. I say that the greater majority of Hornet maintainers have the ability to troubleshoot and fix most gripes on par with F-14 or any other type platform mechanics. The way you badmouth your fellow shipmates is downright disgusting. ![]() View Quote |
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My opinion is that missiles are the biggest carrier threat. Maxing strike range as much as possible keeps them further away from misses, and increases the area subs have to search for them. As much as I love tomcats, I think drones extending sensor range makes a lot more sense.
1) A carrier based Triton/Global Hawk type recon drone that flies high, has long range, carries a small weapons payload and can do the F35 trick of providing targeting info for ship based weapons. The primary job would be extending the eyes of the fleet for earlier warning/targeting of missiles, and the weapon payload would provide some self defense, limited CAP and possibly long range ground strike options. 2) An extended range plane that favors stealth, speed and range and not dogfighting, which is I think what the AF penetrating counter air fighter is, but who knows what is finally decided upon. It seems like f35 avionics and a more mission specific airframe could get this done, but I'm not a defense contractor so I don't know what problems could be milked for billions. This helps restores the carriers striking range. 3) New theater air defense cruisers that take over ballistic missile defense and has a healthy supply of missiles to survive swarm attacks. The proposed San Antonio cruiser design would be off the shelf and probably a lot cheaper than a new design. I don't think it can keep up with a carrier, but why does it need to. Pair a San Antonio air defense cruiser with an America class landing ship carrying F35B's, and put them in the path of a likely attack on the "real" carrier. Build a bunch of these air defense cruisers, design them for long deployments and all of a sudden we have BMD all over the place without wearing out our destroyers. The carriers drones could extend sensor range for the fleet, and attacks on the carrier would have to go through the air defense cruiser & it's escorts first, and then the carrier's escorts and defenses. F35B's provide CAP for the air defense cruiser and indirectly the carrier, with backup from the carrier's new long range plane and the carriers existing fighters. |
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I’m sure it may have something to do with why nobody has developed a new swing wing jet in four decades.
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Quoted: 6th gen USN F/A-XX fighter to replace the shit bomb F-35 https://www.aereo.jor.br/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/FAXX-slide-Boeing-July-2009.JPG https://i0.wp.com/defenceupdate.in/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/sixth-gen-fighter.png?fit=1000%2C564&ssl=1 View Quote Let's call it the A-12B. ![]() |
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Quoted: 6th gen USN F/A-XX fighter to replace the shit bomb F-35 https://www.aereo.jor.br/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/FAXX-slide-Boeing-July-2009.JPG https://i0.wp.com/defenceupdate.in/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/sixth-gen-fighter.png?fit=1000%2C564&ssl=1 View Quote ![]() |
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Well, we know that's bullshit, we have it on good authority from the experts in GD that "there will never be another manned fighter produced."
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Quoted: Well, we know that's bullshit, we have it on good authority from the experts in GD that "there will never be another manned fighter produced." View Quote Orbiting unmanned drones shooting tungsten Rods From God the size of telephone poles at bad guys. Other drones armed with Brilliant Pebbles shooting down atmospheric vehicles - read that here in the last week. lol Low observable drones detected by disruption of E-M waves between cell towers. Lasers on drones shooting hundreds of miles without understanding the angular precision required to target and direct a beam, although I suppose they're like .50 BMG bullets and only need to get close to blow a wing off. . |
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Quoted: Orbiting unmanned drones shooting tungsten Rods From God the size of telephone poles at bad guys. Other drones armed with Brilliant Pebbles shooting down atmospheric vehicles - read that here in the last week. lol Low observable drones detected by disruption of E-M waves between cell towers. Lasers on drones shooting hundreds of miles without understanding the angular precision required to target and direct a beam, although I suppose they're like .50 BMG bullets and only need to get close to blow a wing off. . View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Well, we know that's bullshit, we have it on good authority from the experts in GD that "there will never be another manned fighter produced." Orbiting unmanned drones shooting tungsten Rods From God the size of telephone poles at bad guys. Other drones armed with Brilliant Pebbles shooting down atmospheric vehicles - read that here in the last week. lol Low observable drones detected by disruption of E-M waves between cell towers. Lasers on drones shooting hundreds of miles without understanding the angular precision required to target and direct a beam, although I suppose they're like .50 BMG bullets and only need to get close to blow a wing off. . There are some new lessons you can learn on the last pages of this. You can probably log the thread as continuing education hours. https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/2455696_Air-Force-discovers-how-to-convert-its-522-cargo-planes-into-bombers.html |
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Quoted: There are some new lessons you can learn on the last pages of this. You can probably log the thread as continuing education hours. https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/2455696_Air-Force-discovers-how-to-convert-its-522-cargo-planes-into-bombers.html View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well, we know that's bullshit, we have it on good authority from the experts in GD that "there will never be another manned fighter produced." Orbiting unmanned drones shooting tungsten Rods From God the size of telephone poles at bad guys. Other drones armed with Brilliant Pebbles shooting down atmospheric vehicles - read that here in the last week. lol Low observable drones detected by disruption of E-M waves between cell towers. Lasers on drones shooting hundreds of miles without understanding the angular precision required to target and direct a beam, although I suppose they're like .50 BMG bullets and only need to get close to blow a wing off. . There are some new lessons you can learn on the last pages of this. You can probably log the thread as continuing education hours. https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/2455696_Air-Force-discovers-how-to-convert-its-522-cargo-planes-into-bombers.html I almost forgot, CHEAP drones that dogfight at 20g's with no need to keep a pilot alive. lol. I scanned the last page of that mess, it damn near has it all. . |
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Quoted: Orbiting unmanned drones shooting tungsten Rods From God the size of telephone poles at bad guys. Other drones armed with Brilliant Pebbles shooting down atmospheric vehicles - read that here in the last week. lol Low observable drones detected by disruption of E-M waves between cell towers. Lasers on drones shooting hundreds of miles without understanding the angular precision required to target and direct a beam, although I suppose they're like .50 BMG bullets and only need to get close to blow a wing off. . View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Well, we know that's bullshit, we have it on good authority from the experts in GD that "there will never be another manned fighter produced." Orbiting unmanned drones shooting tungsten Rods From God the size of telephone poles at bad guys. Other drones armed with Brilliant Pebbles shooting down atmospheric vehicles - read that here in the last week. lol Low observable drones detected by disruption of E-M waves between cell towers. Lasers on drones shooting hundreds of miles without understanding the angular precision required to target and direct a beam, although I suppose they're like .50 BMG bullets and only need to get close to blow a wing off. . ![]() |
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Quoted: I almost forgot, CHEAP drones that dogfight at 20g's with no need to keep a pilot alive. . View Quote Super cheap. The Chinese are doubtless already cranking these out like beer cans. Funny that they all talk about these already being a thing but no one has any pictures or even any concept artwork of them... |
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Quoted: GD is AFRL, MDA/DV, and DARPAs SBIR/BAA managers' wet dream. ![]() View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well, we know that's bullshit, we have it on good authority from the experts in GD that "there will never be another manned fighter produced." Orbiting unmanned drones shooting tungsten Rods From God the size of telephone poles at bad guys. Other drones armed with Brilliant Pebbles shooting down atmospheric vehicles - read that here in the last week. lol Low observable drones detected by disruption of E-M waves between cell towers. Lasers on drones shooting hundreds of miles without understanding the angular precision required to target and direct a beam, although I suppose they're like .50 BMG bullets and only need to get close to blow a wing off. . ![]() GD couldn't find it's way through the HERTF at Kirkland AFB. . |
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Quoted: I almost forgot, CHEAP drones that dogfight at 20g's with no need to keep a pilot alive. lol. I scanned the last page of that mess, it damn near has it all. . View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well, we know that's bullshit, we have it on good authority from the experts in GD that "there will never be another manned fighter produced." Orbiting unmanned drones shooting tungsten Rods From God the size of telephone poles at bad guys. Other drones armed with Brilliant Pebbles shooting down atmospheric vehicles - read that here in the last week. lol Low observable drones detected by disruption of E-M waves between cell towers. Lasers on drones shooting hundreds of miles without understanding the angular precision required to target and direct a beam, although I suppose they're like .50 BMG bullets and only need to get close to blow a wing off. . There are some new lessons you can learn on the last pages of this. You can probably log the thread as continuing education hours. https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/2455696_Air-Force-discovers-how-to-convert-its-522-cargo-planes-into-bombers.html I almost forgot, CHEAP drones that dogfight at 20g's with no need to keep a pilot alive. lol. I scanned the last page of that mess, it damn near has it all. . I know you're working on small, swarming, intercontinental, bunker busting drones. |
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Quoted: GD couldn't find it's way through the HERTF at Kirkland AFB. . View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well, we know that's bullshit, we have it on good authority from the experts in GD that "there will never be another manned fighter produced." Orbiting unmanned drones shooting tungsten Rods From God the size of telephone poles at bad guys. Other drones armed with Brilliant Pebbles shooting down atmospheric vehicles - read that here in the last week. lol Low observable drones detected by disruption of E-M waves between cell towers. Lasers on drones shooting hundreds of miles without understanding the angular precision required to target and direct a beam, although I suppose they're like .50 BMG bullets and only need to get close to blow a wing off. . ![]() GD couldn't find it's way through the HERTF at Kirkland AFB. . HERTF is the symbol for the Heritage Cannabis Holdings Corp. ![]() |
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The fact is it was a sexy plane, but the design was inherently not as durable. You can't have moving wings like that and not have huge wear issues after a while. Airfoil design also made it unnecessary and obsolete, with a shitty ROI in maintanence v performance. The swing wing was intended to address something that no longer applied to newer airframes.
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Quoted: IIRC, Northrop Grumman`s offer to update the F-14 would basically require reengineering the plane, and screw the .gov out of a lot of $$$ compared to a clean sheet design. Also the phoenix missile didn`t live up to its` hype. It was being superceded by AMRAAM. So there was no real benefit to keeping the Tomcat. View Quote It's funny to read that now after all the new jets that have come out $$$$$$$$$$$$$$. |
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Quoted: The threats changed, The Phoenix was unable to intercept fast moving anti ship missiles. They were designed to shoot down long range slow bombers. The Phoenix is a pig that didn’t have the agility for those kind of intercepts. Even with slow moving bombers it’s success rate was never that high as they claimed. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: The better question is does the medium range AIM-120 AMRAAM fully replaced the long range AIM-54 Phoenix? The main purpose of the Tomcat was to fly the Phoenix missiles and do long range intercepts of incoming attackers. The threats changed, The Phoenix was unable to intercept fast moving anti ship missiles. They were designed to shoot down long range slow bombers. The Phoenix is a pig that didn’t have the agility for those kind of intercepts. Even with slow moving bombers it’s success rate was never that high as they claimed. This, the AIM-54 kill probably was 80% at best. And that against drone targets |
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Quoted: What is the range of typical anti-ship cruise missiles carried by our enemies? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: They got rid of the Phoenix missile. No need for the only weapon system that carried it. What is the range of typical anti-ship cruise missiles carried by our enemies? AIM-120D > AIM-54 |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They got rid of the Phoenix missile. No need for the only weapon system that carried it. What is the range of typical anti-ship cruise missiles carried by our enemies? AIM-120D > AIM-54 Those are both air-to-air missiles. |
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![]() Grumman F-14 Tomcat tour and aerial demonstration |
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Quoted: This, the AIM-54 kill probably was 80% at best. And that against drone targets View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The better question is does the medium range AIM-120 AMRAAM fully replaced the long range AIM-54 Phoenix? The main purpose of the Tomcat was to fly the Phoenix missiles and do long range intercepts of incoming attackers. The threats changed, The Phoenix was unable to intercept fast moving anti ship missiles. They were designed to shoot down long range slow bombers. The Phoenix is a pig that didn’t have the agility for those kind of intercepts. Even with slow moving bombers it’s success rate was never that high as they claimed. This, the AIM-54 kill probably was 80% at best. And that against drone targets Compared to the AIM-7 of the day, 80% was like a death ray. I recall the Sparrow's nickname being "The Great White Hope." |
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Quoted: First let me point out that fighter tactics didn't change much from WWI until well into the jet age. The size of the arena expanded from yards to miles, but the basics stayed the same. NOT turning was always the most survivable strategy, from the Red Baron to Robin Olds. Pick someone off the periphery of an engagement, and keep going. "One pass, haul ass." The F-104 was not only well-suited for that - very fast and almost invisible head on - but it HAD to be flown that way. No matter how sharp an F-104 pilot's fangs got, he wasn't going to out turn anyone, and he knew it. View Quote "A 104 in the weeds" was the usual culprit of AF pilots doing DACT against Luftwaffe pilots out of Luke AFB in the 1970s when their F-104 school was operating there. The Germans continued a modified version of that tactic with success in their Phantoms, with designated shooters flying in the weeds with decoy/designated sacrifice Phantoms flying higher along the same track. We had German crews going to Red Flag from George AFB who were getting kills on F-15s using that tactic, but they were losing Luftwaffe crews for each Eagle they killed. |
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Quoted: @hollowhandle That was the highest resolution JPG I could find. You can buy the full sized print at Amazon through, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01I0V54T2/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_36AY093RRQWRQ1GGQGCE?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1 View Quote Missing quite a few planes in the Century Series. |
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