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Posted: 6/29/2020 10:24:16 AM EDT
[#1]
My Savage 93 .22 mag is generally my go-to critter shooter. The damage it causes impresses me every time I shoot something. So much more carnage than .22 lr.
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Posted: 6/29/2020 10:25:51 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My Savage 93 .22 mag is generally my go-to critter shooter. The damage it causes impresses me every time I shoot something. So much more carnage that .22 lr. Yeah 22 mag is legit. Is it "better" than 9mm? Who gives a shit. Apples to potatoes. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 10:26:51 AM EDT
[#3]
Honestly if it wasn't rimfire and had more than a very small number of compact firearms in it, I'd carry one. But rimfire reliability is not up to centerfire par, and the one normal-size semi-auto isn't that impressive.
It's also not that great velocity from pistols. All the velocity numbers you see are rifles and those are great, but from a pistol it is lackluster. It operates at the same pressures 22lr does so it's only advantage is more powder and it needs a fairly large amount of barrel to take advantage of that. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 10:34:19 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I mean Hornady makes a .22 Critical Defense, which is the same bullet design as the round the FBI just adopted in 9mm. So .22 has the same modern bullet design. Speer also makes a Gold Dot .22 https://image.sportsmansguide.com/adimgs/l/2/231113_ts.jpg So if bullet penetration depth is all that really matters, seems like a properly penetrating .22 would be the same as a properly penetrating 9mm, .40, .45, 10mm. Penetrating depth is hardly all that really matters. It is important that a round be able to penetrate to a minimum depth in testing, since a round needs to reach vitals, cause organ or nerve cluster failure, and create blood loss. Penetration depth is also a hard thing to quantify in testing in a way that represents real world use. You could test five rounds fired into the same cadaver and any slight variation in the angle of deflection off the same bone could cause very different results. Since a defensive shooting or use in combat isn’t going to be putting rounds in the same spot, you could have four or five hits center mass that all encounter completely different anatomy. A low mass projectile at the velocities you’ll get from a handgun isn’t going to create permanent cavity by stretching tissue past it’s elastic limits. It’s going to lose energy rapidly when it encounters thick muscle and bone which will keep it from reaching depth. It’s going to create a very narrow permanent wound cavity of displaced tissue and it’s going to suck at any barrier penetration. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 10:34:35 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A centre-fire .22 Mag loaded with pistol powder would be interesting. That’s called 5.7x28. 
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Posted: 6/29/2020 10:48:17 AM EDT
[#6]
I'm wagering all you "rim fire is unreliable" boys are also a strong member of the .40 is a useless dead caliber.
Sheesh the garbage that gets spouted here  Debunking the Myths of Rimfire |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 10:56:40 AM EDT
[#7]
Never had a 22 WMR misfire in any rifle I've tied. Maybe 1k, or so rounds through 3 or 4 rifles & pretty much all brands.
I'd likely not depend on a semi-auto pistol because of the rim. I would likely trust a Ruger LCR, or similar with that Hornady ammo shown earlier in the thread, but actual penetration from a short pistol would be interesting to know. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 11:01:00 AM EDT
[#8]
If you want a 22 cal defensive round in pistol footprint why 22mag over 22TCM other than capacity?
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Posted: 6/29/2020 11:15:18 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm wagering all you "rim fire is unreliable" boys are also a strong member of the .40 is a useless dead caliber. Sheesh the garbage that gets spouted here  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOW4F60hCXkIts video about how all rim fire manufactures are in a race to the bottom. Which is the entire point of saying rime fire is not appropriate for self defense, because there is no high quality SD ammunition. Is it possible to make such a thing, probably, but there is also no market for SD .22lr. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 11:17:05 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Rimfire reliability sucks. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 11:24:58 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why trust your life on the reliability of rimfire. Especially a KelTec rimfire!  
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Posted: 6/29/2020 11:27:49 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I keep hearing about the non-reliability of rimfire cartridges but honestly I find it interesting as I’ve never had a rimfire not go off. Granted I shoot a shit ton more centerfire and I’ve probably only shot 2000-3000 rounds of rimfire in my life either for squirrel hunting or just fucking around at the range but I’ve never had one not discharge (even with supposedly shitty Remington ammo) yet I keep seeing how people claim them to be unreliable. Anyway that’s just my observation and I just find it curious.  clearly you have not shot much if any rimfire
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Posted: 6/29/2020 11:28:20 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Its video about how all rim fire manufactures are in a race to the bottom. Which is the entire point of saying rime fire is not appropriate for self defense, because there is no high quality SD ammunition. Is it possible to make such a thing, probably, but there is also no market for SD .22lr. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'm wagering all you "rim fire is unreliable" boys are also a strong member of the .40 is a useless dead caliber. Sheesh the garbage that gets spouted here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOW4F60hCXkIts video about how all rim fire manufactures are in a race to the bottom. Which is the entire point of saying rime fire is not appropriate for self defense, because there is no high quality SD ammunition. Is it possible to make such a thing, probably, but there is also no market for SD .22lr. Somebody posted some from federal in this thread. You could argue that every company making everything everywhere is in a race to the bottom. Different manufacturers with different product lines, some are budget, some are top quality. 22LR is not 22 WMR. Good 22wmr is a lot more expensive than the bulk 22lr ammo and the QC is no doubt higher especially from companies like CCI and Federal. The failure rate for quality 22wmr is likely similar to centerfire. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 11:29:33 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, lots of people have said just that. I spent the day browsing past history of the argument on here. Your picture was also thrown around a lot, but it was often followed by how only penetration matters. Regardless. The pic shows that they all have similar penetration and minimal differences in wound profiles. In fact 9mm and 45ACP have about the same exact muzzle energy. Small and fast vs big and slow but same energy. This only applies to modern hollow points if using FMJ then bigger is better. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 11:31:09 AM EDT
[#15]
Center fire > Rimfire
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Posted: 6/29/2020 11:36:55 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Regardless. The pic shows that they all have similar penetration and minimal differences in wound profiles. In fact 9mm and 45ACP have about the same exact muzzle energy. Small and fast vs big and slow but same energy. This only applies to modern hollow points if using FMJ then bigger is better. Honestly that picture gets used a lot but I don't believe it one bit. If I remember correctly that was also an add from Winchester or someone and not shot in a independent lab. First off every round pictured barely penetrates to 12"...that's BS, also if the Dark area is the only area that matters then clearly .40 is the clear winner as it has entire giant black hole in the center. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 11:38:15 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you want a 22 cal defensive round in pistol footprint why 22mag over 22TCM other than capacity? Because capacity is pretty much the only reason anyone would want a 22cal defensive round. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 11:41:07 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I keep hearing about the non-reliability of rimfire cartridges but honestly I find it interesting as I’ve never had a rimfire not go off. Granted I shoot a shit ton more centerfire and I’ve probably only shot 2000-3000 rounds of rimfire in my life either for squirrel hunting or just fucking around at the range but I’ve never had one not discharge (even with supposedly shitty Remington ammo) yet I keep seeing how people claim them to be unreliable. Anyway that’s just my observation and I just find it curious. This is the first place I have ever heard about it too. I don't get it either. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 11:49:53 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A centre-fire .22 Mag loaded with pistol powder would be interesting. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 11:53:56 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How reliable is your rimfire semi auto pistol? 100% or I won't keep it. In this thread we learn who owns undependable .22s. 
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Posted: 6/29/2020 11:54:39 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's called 5.7x28. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: A centre-fire .22 Mag loaded with pistol powder would be interesting. That's called 5.7x28. I really want it to become popular but so far it isn't happening. Maybe after the election the supply and prices will match it's competitors. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 12:01:56 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've heard the "reliability" shortcomings of rimfire all may life. I can't remember the last time I had a misfire. I never had a misfire from CCI in their upper level ammo. Velocitors and Stingers. Remington Yellowjackets have been 100%, but I have not used them very much. Centerfire has less chance of having a primer malfunction form carry, and bouncing around though. Rimfire from day one has been considered unreliable. That's why we have center-fire cartridges. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 12:09:47 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Honestly that picture gets used a lot but I don't believe it one bit. If I remember correctly that was also an add from Winchester or someone and not shot in a independent lab. First off every round pictured barely penetrates to 12"...that's BS, also if the Dark area is the only area that matters then clearly .40 is the clear winner as it has entire giant black hole in the center. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Regardless. The pic shows that they all have similar penetration and minimal differences in wound profiles. In fact 9mm and 45ACP have about the same exact muzzle energy. Small and fast vs big and slow but same energy. This only applies to modern hollow points if using FMJ then bigger is better. Honestly that picture gets used a lot but I don't believe it one bit. If I remember correctly that was also an add from Winchester or someone and not shot in a independent lab. First off every round pictured barely penetrates to 12"...that's BS, also if the Dark area is the only area that matters then clearly .40 is the clear winner as it has entire giant black hole in the center. Its not a problem to find a bunch of various caliber ammo that will all pen/expand similarly. Its expected as many manufacturers are trying to hit a specific zone of pen/expansion. https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/ |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 1:03:50 PM EDT
[#24]
I would respond with something well thought out. But it's obvious OP just wants to make an argument for what he believes is magically better than 9mm (probably 45). Because muh big boolits!
If you like and feel better with 45 OP shoot that I won't hate. But let's not pretend that small difference in surface area and slight increase in muzzle energy does more than make you feel better. Honestly how you feel about it means more than any actual gains you'll get in real world performance. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 1:18:48 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That’s called 5.7x28. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: A centre-fire .22 Mag loaded with pistol powder would be interesting. That’s called 5.7x28. Bottle-necked pistol rounds are ghey. 
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Posted: 6/29/2020 1:21:16 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would like to see a modern take on .25 ACP, which was designed to match hot .22lr of the day from a shorter barrel but without the reliability issues of .22lr. A longer version with modern powders and no semi-rim would be a sweet compact pistol round and should compare favorably with .22mag from pistols. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: A centre-fire .22 Mag loaded with pistol powder would be interesting. Agreed. I'd also want to see something like that in .32, ballistics close to 7.62x25 but straight-walled. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 1:49:30 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Agreed. I'd also want to see something like that in .32, ballistics close to 7.62x25 but straight-walled. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: A centre-fire .22 Mag loaded with pistol powder would be interesting. Agreed. I'd also want to see something like that in .32, ballistics close to 7.62x25 but straight-walled. I'd be interested in a 5.7x28mm blown out to .30 as a sort of modern .30 Carbine for duty-size pistols, but that seems very unlikely since even 5.7mm hasn't quite caught on yet. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 1:56:39 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: eh, I'd be happy to see .32ACP become popular again at all. In a tiny hold-out and even in some compact guns it's better than .380 (less kick and often one more round). Increasing the powder only removes its one benefit away by increasing recoil. I'd be interested in a 5.7x28mm blown out to .30 as a sort of modern .30 Carbine for duty-size pistols, but that seems very unlikely since even 5.7mm hasn't quite caught on yet. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A centre-fire .22 Mag loaded with pistol powder would be interesting. Agreed. I'd also want to see something like that in .32, ballistics close to 7.62x25 but straight-walled. I'd be interested in a 5.7x28mm blown out to .30 as a sort of modern .30 Carbine for duty-size pistols, but that seems very unlikely since even 5.7mm hasn't quite caught on yet. Maybe a hot-rodded 7.65 Longue would work? |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 2:00:37 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Rimfire reliability sucks. This. If you have never had a rimfire round fail to detonate you haven't shot enough rimfire. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 7:57:49 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe a hot-rodded 7.65 Longue would work? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A centre-fire .22 Mag loaded with pistol powder would be interesting. Agreed. I'd also want to see something like that in .32, ballistics close to 7.62x25 but straight-walled. I'd be interested in a 5.7x28mm blown out to .30 as a sort of modern .30 Carbine for duty-size pistols, but that seems very unlikely since even 5.7mm hasn't quite caught on yet. Maybe a hot-rodded 7.65 Longue would work? I just don't see the point. .32ACP works because it's a small and gentle-recoiling round for compact guns that retains some lethality. The 7.65 Longue is designed for full-size pistols and has been well-eclipsed by 9mm in that role. |
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Posted: 6/30/2020 4:43:48 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I just don't see the point. .32ACP works because it's a small and gentle-recoiling round for compact guns that retains some lethality. The 7.65 Longue is designed for full-size pistols and has been well-eclipsed by 9mm in that role. I just want a Glock 19 sized gun with more rounds. |
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Posted: 6/30/2020 4:47:46 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who told you that? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've always been told all that matters in handguns is capacity, recoil, and the ability to penetrate 12-18". Velocity, energy, bullet diameter, none of that matters. Who told you that? That is the common argument for 9mm over 45. |
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Posted: 6/30/2020 4:53:27 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've had lots of 22LR duds, but never a 22WMR dud. I've killed a lot of stuff with a 22WMR. It kills stuff better than it should from looking at it on paper. I would never intentionally carry it for a defensive weapon. Too “Cumbersome“? |
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Posted: 6/30/2020 5:13:54 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I just want a Glock 19 sized gun with more rounds. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I just don't see the point. .32ACP works because it's a small and gentle-recoiling round for compact guns that retains some lethality. The 7.65 Longue is designed for full-size pistols and has been well-eclipsed by 9mm in that role. I just want a Glock 19 sized gun with more rounds. |
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