User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 6:27:46 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Japanese ship - excessive size, cool points for biggest German ship - mediocre but lots of 88 love American ship - dominant alpha Not to mention Steven Seagal / Tommy Lee Jones and Tomahawk cruise missiles. ;-) |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 6:28:20 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep, and since Bismark sank her with only 3 salvos, Bismark had some pretty damn good fire control, especially considering it was her very first action. Still, I think Iowa could knock Bismark's dick in the dirt sea. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Whoever got the first solid hit. This. See HMS Hood for details.  Yep, and since Bismark sank her with only 3 salvos, Bismark had some pretty damn good fire control, especially considering it was her very first action. Still, I think Iowa could knock Bismark's dick in the dirt sea. I'd like to think so. But in May of 1941 the war had just begun. The Germans had the biggest ships, they had the biggest guns. The Bismarck was the fastest ship that ever sailed the seas, on her decks were guns as big as steers and shells as big as trees. Johnny Horton sang purty but he didn't do much research. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 6:29:28 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Bismarck and Tirpitz along with the u boats almost brought down the The Royal Navy. The other two ships mentioned in this thread didn't nearly do as much damage to any other fleet. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Tirpitz didn't do much of anything, aside from run & hide from the RN and the RAF. Bismark landed one serious and a few minor blows on the RN, but the U-boat fleet did most of the heavy lifting in Germany's war at sea. The German surface fleet, just like in WW1, was totally dominated by the RN. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 6:32:09 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Tirpitz didn't do much of anything, aside from run & hide from the RN and the RAF. Bismark landed one serious and a few minor blows on the RN, but the U-boat fleet did most of the heavy lifting in Germany's war at sea. The German surface fleet, just like in WW1, was totally dominated by the RN. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The Bismarck and Tirpitz along with the u boats almost brought down the The Royal Navy. The other two ships mentioned in this thread didn't nearly do as much damage to any other fleet. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Tirpitz didn't do much of anything, aside from run & hide from the RN and the RAF. Bismark landed one serious and a few minor blows on the RN, but the U-boat fleet did most of the heavy lifting in Germany's war at sea. The German surface fleet, just like in WW1, was totally dominated by the RN. They were prestige ships and yet another total blunder by the German leadership....in what was a string of total blunders that marked the German war effort and pre-war planning. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 6:34:00 PM EDT
[#5]
Can I ask a question here about the fire control on the North Carolina class? Was it as good as on the Iowas. The reason I ask is because Washington escorted convoys to Russian arctic ports past Norway to guard them against Turpitz .
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 6:35:14 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Tirpitz didn't do much of anything, aside from run & hide from the RN and the RAF. Bismark landed one serious and a few minor blows on the RN, but the U-boat fleet did most of the heavy lifting in Germany's war at sea. The German surface fleet, just like in WW1, was totally dominated by the RN. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The Bismarck and Tirpitz along with the u boats almost brought down the The Royal Navy. The other two ships mentioned in this thread didn't nearly do as much damage to any other fleet. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Tirpitz didn't do much of anything, aside from run & hide from the RN and the RAF. Bismark landed one serious and a few minor blows on the RN, but the U-boat fleet did most of the heavy lifting in Germany's war at sea. The German surface fleet, just like in WW1, was totally dominated by the RN. And the Graf Spee ran the first time it saw British warships and wound up being scuttled in the River Plate near Montevideo, Uruguay. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 6:38:39 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can I ask a question here about the fire control on the North Carolina class? Was it as good as on the Iowas. The reason I ask is because Washington escorted convoys to Russian arctic ports past Norway to guard them against Turpitz . The Tirpitz and the Bismark were piles of shit. See my prior post and do the research. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 6:39:08 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. See HMS Hood for details. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Whoever got the first solid hit. This. See HMS Hood for details. Not a good comparison; the Hood was a battlecruiser, not a battleship. She was built to blast the crap out of cruisers, not battleships. During that same confrontation the Prince of Wales (a real BB) survived and actually scored a couple of hits. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 6:39:44 PM EDT
[#9]
Missouri FTW
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 6:42:09 PM EDT
[#10]
Iowa wins it over all the others.
Furthermore, I believe a Colorado Class would have also done well against the Bismark. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 6:43:34 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Until the Chin Lee arrived on the scene and trained the USN how to use RADAR. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Whoever got the first solid hit. btw the Japs had some pretty damn good capabilities with targeting & fire control, they kicked our asses in Iron Bottom Sound Until the Chin Lee arrived on the scene and trained the USN how to use RADAR. I was waiting for this to come up  .
The Japanese were very good at visual night combat compared to the Americans. Effective targeting radar integrated into the fire control systems on the US side changed the balance decisively. Even when retrofitted to WWI vintage ships it worked wonders. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 6:45:11 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hood had almost no protection from a plunging shell. All 3 of the ones mentioned were much more heavily armored. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Whoever got the first solid hit. This. See HMS Hood for details. Hood had almost no protection from a plunging shell. All 3 of the ones mentioned were much more heavily armored. True, but the ability of shit to go pear shaped in a fight at sea can always find the chinks in a set of armor. Murphy was a grunt, but he could fuck up boats pretty good. Magazines and incoming equals high risk even under armor. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 6:45:28 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Iowa wins it over all the others. Furthermore, I believe a Colorado Class would have also done well against the Bismark. Maybe...if the Bismarck had cut her engines and was dead in the water. The Colorado class were built for slugging it out with other BBs, but their top speed was only about 22 knots, significantly slower than the Bismarck. The Germans would have either run away or ran circles around her. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 6:45:37 PM EDT
[#14]
The information you seek is here: http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 6:48:01 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hood had almost no protection from a plunging shell. All 3 of the ones mentioned were much more heavily armored. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Whoever got the first solid hit. This. See HMS Hood for details. Hood had almost no protection from a plunging shell. All 3 of the ones mentioned were much more heavily armored. Aside from that, some former crew of the Hood testified to sloppy ammunition handling practices that could have been the reason a single hit caused her demise. Nothing definite since there were so few survivors but even a stout protection scheme will fail if crew set it up to fail |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 6:51:06 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Aside from that, some former crew of the Hood testified to sloppy ammunition handling practices that could have been the reason a single hit caused her demise. Nothing definite since there were so few survivors but even a stout protection scheme will fail if crew set it up to fail Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Whoever got the first solid hit. This. See HMS Hood for details. Hood had almost no protection from a plunging shell. All 3 of the ones mentioned were much more heavily armored. Aside from that, some former crew of the Hood testified to sloppy ammunition handling practices that could have been the reason a single hit caused her demise. Nothing definite since there were so few survivors but even a stout protection scheme will fail if crew set it up to fail Yep, now I remember reading about that. You're right. I think that was one of those once in a lifetime things where all kinds of bad things had to happen all at once. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 6:53:59 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryI have seen that sight but I was curious that they left out the North Carolina class fast battleship. We see what Washington did to Kiroshima and I was wondering if they were up to par with South Dakota and Iowa. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 6:55:10 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can I ask a question here about the fire control on the North Carolina class? Was it as good as on the Iowas. The reason I ask is because Washington escorted convoys to Russian arctic ports past Norway to guard them against Turpitz . USS Washington (the only sister to North Carolina) kicked ass at night so I'm going with a yes. It was the same basic setup as the Iowas but the main batteries and main battery director installations were different so the results could differ. Regardless, Washington kicked ass in terms of hits per salvo. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 6:55:15 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And the Graf Spee ran the first time it saw British warships and wound up being scuttled in the River Plate near Montevideo, Uruguay. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Bismarck and Tirpitz along with the u boats almost brought down the The Royal Navy. The other two ships mentioned in this thread didn't nearly do as much damage to any other fleet. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Tirpitz didn't do much of anything, aside from run & hide from the RN and the RAF. Bismark landed one serious and a few minor blows on the RN, but the U-boat fleet did most of the heavy lifting in Germany's war at sea. The German surface fleet, just like in WW1, was totally dominated by the RN. And the Graf Spee ran the first time it saw British warships and wound up being scuttled in the River Plate near Montevideo, Uruguay. Graf Spee did not run from the British, though she probably should have. http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/battle_of_the_river_plate.htm |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 6:55:54 PM EDT
[#20]
A little off topic, but one of the things that plagued ALL Japanese ships were their AA batteries.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 6:55:55 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://www.shipschematics.net/yamato/images/title.jpg Obviously the Yamato, because it flies through space and shit. I loved Star Blazers as a kid. The Yamato had a Wave Motion Gun. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 6:57:01 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have seen that sight but I was curious that they left out the North Carolina class fast battleship. We see what Washington did to Kiroshima and I was wondering if they were up to par with South Dakota and Iowa. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have seen that sight but I was curious that they left out the North Carolina class fast battleship. We see what Washington did to Kiroshima and I was wondering if they were up to par with South Dakota and Iowa. To be clear, Washington was the only other North Carolina class battleship other than North Carolina. North Carolina herself didn't participate in any fights against other battleships. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 6:58:36 PM EDT
[#23]
After reading about the Montana class, I'm not really sure what the point was. Thankfully, the plans were scrapped before we spent any time or money on them. The Iowas were already better than any other BB in existence.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 7:04:02 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://www.shipschematics.net/yamato/images/title.jpg Obviously the Yamato, because it flies through space and shit. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 7:06:41 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
These threads are so stupid. As long ago as in the middle of WWII, there was no question that a single South Dakota class battleship could easily sink the Tirpitz, with no appreciable risk of harm to the US BB. That's why a single SD class battleship was sent to lure the Tirpitz into a one on one fight, but the Nazi pussies knew better. The planners knew the SD would sink the Tirpitz from beyond the effective range of her guns. The Ship involved was whichever SD class ship served with the British fleet --either the Massachusetts or the Alabama. I don't remember. Look it up. American battleships were the best of their generation, from the Nevadas forward. They were slower, as if that matters, but otherwise were better in every respect. Better guns, better armor, better fire control, and better damage control. Durrrr, I is stupid.
That did not stop you from posting relevant opinions. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 7:07:22 PM EDT
[#26]
Any US Fast Battleship would have handled the Bismark easily, and the Yamato slightly less easily.
The Iowa's were the best of them, but from a Fire-Control standpoint... It's not close. We'd be getting hits in numbers and at ranges neither the Japanese nor the Germans could even dream of. Yamato at least has the advantage that her shells would hurt more than ours would. Bismark doesn't even have that. (If Tirpitz would have come out while Washington was operating with the UK's fleet in '42, it would have saved the Brits a -lot- of trouble) |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 7:07:39 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Graf Spee did not run from the British, though she probably should have. http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/battle_of_the_river_plate.htm Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Tirpitz didn't do much of anything, aside from run & hide from the RN and the RAF. Bismark landed one serious and a few minor blows on the RN, but the U-boat fleet did most of the heavy lifting in Germany's war at sea. The German surface fleet, just like in WW1, was totally dominated by the RN. And the Graf Spee ran the first time it saw British warships and wound up being scuttled in the River Plate near Montevideo, Uruguay. Graf Spee did not run from the British, though she probably should have. http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/battle_of_the_river_plate.htm I think I mentioned the scuttling already and the reason she was in the harbor was that she ran from the British in the first place. In the ensuing battle, Exeter was severely damaged and forced to retire; Ajax and Achilles suffered moderate damage. The damage to Graf Spee, although not extensive, was critical; her fuel system was crippled. Ajax and Achilles shadowed the German ship until she entered the port of Montevideo, the capital city of neutral Uruguay, to effect urgent repairs. Langsdorff: "We must run into port, the ship is not now seaworthy for the North Atlantic." Sounds like running to me. Doesn't change the fact that the Germans focused on merchant shipping, were told to avoid battle, and did very little damage to the RN, excluding Hood. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 7:08:52 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any US Fast Battleship would have handled the Bismark easily, and the Yamato slightly less easily. The Iowa's were the best of them, but from a Fire-Control standpoint... It's not close. We'd be getting hits in numbers and at ranges neither the Japanese nor the Germans could even dream of. Yamato at least has the advantage that her shells would hurt more than ours would. Bismark doesn't even have that. (If Tirpitz would have come out while Washington was operating with the UK's fleet in '42, it would have saved the Brits a -lot- of trouble) And some Tall Boys.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 7:09:50 PM EDT
[#29]
Weren't the only battleship on battleship engagements the U.S. Navy was in were Iron Bottom Sound, Leyte Gulf, and Massachusetts against Jean Bart?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 7:11:11 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe...if the Bismarck had cut her engines and was dead in the water. The Colorado class were built for slugging it out with other BBs, but their top speed was only about 22 knots, significantly slower than the Bismarck. The Germans would have either run away or ran circles around her. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Iowa wins it over all the others. Furthermore, I believe a Colorado Class would have also done well against the Bismark. Maybe...if the Bismarck had cut her engines and was dead in the water. The Colorado class were built for slugging it out with other BBs, but their top speed was only about 22 knots, significantly slower than the Bismarck. The Germans would have either run away or ran circles around her. Partly true. Speed does not matter in a battleship fight. At least not at this degree. You either fight, or you run away. The British, German, and Japanese battleships were akin to Karate fighters. They went into battle under the delusion that they would not be hit at all. The US battleships were like boxers. It was understood from the beginning the they would be hit, and they were designed to get hit, and keep fighting. Any US battleship from the Colorado class forward, would have easily sunk the Bismark, and any US battleship from the Nevada class forward, would have probably sunk the Bismark. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 7:11:25 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A little off topic, but one of the things that plagued ALL Japanese ships were their AA batteries. I would think it would take at least D batteries to run a ship that big, actually....
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 7:11:44 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any US Fast Battleship would have handled the Bismark easily, and the Yamato slightly less easily. The Iowa's were the best of them, but from a Fire-Control standpoint... It's not close. We'd be getting hits in numbers and at ranges neither the Japanese nor the Germans could even dream of. Yamato at least has the advantage that her shells would hurt more than ours would. Bismark doesn't even have that. (If Tirpitz would have come out while Washington was operating with the UK's fleet in '42, it would have saved the Brits a -lot- of trouble) Well the German crews were the thing to be feared if anything else. Not that it would have much mattered in this scenario. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 7:14:42 PM EDT
[#33]
At 05.52, look outs on the Graf Spee saw two tall masts on the horizon. By 06.00, Langsdorff had identified one of the ships seen as being the Exeter. He decided that the ships trailing the Graf Spee were protecting an important merchant convoy and he decided to attack. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 7:14:54 PM EDT
[#34]
Bismark was the best battleship in the world when she launched. Not so much a year or two later.
If Halsey hadn't screwed the pooch at Leyte Gulf, a couple Iowa class ships might have got the chance to sink Yamato. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 7:15:37 PM EDT
[#35]
Bismark was actually a fairly primitive design. The Germans just took the last design they had on the books at the end of WWI and modernized it. The secret to the Bismark was that the Germans simply ignored the displacement rules which the British followed. We followed them as well but had technology which made our North Carolina and South Dakota classes more than a match for Bismark. The Iowas had all those good features and no treaty limitations.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 7:15:39 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well the German crews were the thing to be feared if anything else. Not that it would have much mattered in this scenario. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Any US Fast Battleship would have handled the Bismark easily, and the Yamato slightly less easily. The Iowa's were the best of them, but from a Fire-Control standpoint... It's not close. We'd be getting hits in numbers and at ranges neither the Japanese nor the Germans could even dream of. Yamato at least has the advantage that her shells would hurt more than ours would. Bismark doesn't even have that. (If Tirpitz would have come out while Washington was operating with the UK's fleet in '42, it would have saved the Brits a -lot- of trouble) Well the German crews were the thing to be feared if anything else. Not that it would have much mattered in this scenario. They were very good at dying? |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 7:15:44 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Doesn't sound like running to me Larry, but whatever. Quote HistoryQuoted:
At 05.52, look outs on the Graf Spee saw two tall masts on the horizon. By 06.00, Langsdorff had identified one of the ships seen as being the Exeter. He decided that the ships trailing the Graf Spee were protecting an important merchant convoy and he decided to attack. He only decided to attack because he thought the other ships were smaller than the Exeter, but when they started inflicting damage, he ran. A few days later, he scuttled his ship rather than fighting it out. He ran, then scuttled his ship. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 7:16:30 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Tirpitz and the Bismark were piles of shit. See my prior post and do the research. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Can I ask a question here about the fire control on the North Carolina class? Was it as good as on the Iowas. The reason I ask is because Washington escorted convoys to Russian arctic ports past Norway to guard them against Turpitz . The Tirpitz and the Bismark were piles of shit. See my prior post and do the research. They all had more-or-less the same systems. There were some issues with the Early installations - earlier radars, and notably a blind spot where they originally mounted the Surface Search radar - part of the reason Washington waited so long at the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal; she had to be sure the target she was tracking wasn't South Dakota. Washington would have hammered anything the Germans tossed at her. Early in the war, before the USN had been tested, I'm not sure we knew that. We had an even bigger advantage with AA fire - the 5"/38 and our Fire Control has been described as 2 orders of magnitude better than anything else in the world. Trade out the pre-war 1.1" guns for 40mm Bofors, and you've got a winning team. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 7:17:39 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And then he ran. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
At 05.52, look outs on the Graf Spee saw two tall masts on the horizon. By 06.00, Langsdorff had identified one of the ships seen as being the Exeter. He decided that the ships trailing the Graf Spee were protecting an important merchant convoy and he decided to attack. And then he ran. OFFS What are you, 5? |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 7:17:42 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They were very good at dying? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Any US Fast Battleship would have handled the Bismark easily, and the Yamato slightly less easily. The Iowa's were the best of them, but from a Fire-Control standpoint... It's not close. We'd be getting hits in numbers and at ranges neither the Japanese nor the Germans could even dream of. Yamato at least has the advantage that her shells would hurt more than ours would. Bismark doesn't even have that. (If Tirpitz would have come out while Washington was operating with the UK's fleet in '42, it would have saved the Brits a -lot- of trouble) Well the German crews were the thing to be feared if anything else. Not that it would have much mattered in this scenario. They were very good at dying? Very well trained gunners. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 7:18:13 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bismark was the best battleship in the world when she launched. Not so much a year or two later. If Halsey hadn't screwed the pooch at Leyte Gulf, a couple Iowa class ships might have got the chance to sink Yamato. If Halsey had not taken the bait, the Jap battleships would have turned around and headed for home. If you know your history, you know that's true. If Halsey had stayed with the landing forces, the carrier planes would have sunk the Yamato. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 7:18:51 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep, now I remember reading about that. You're right. I think that was one of those once in a lifetime things where all kinds of bad things had to happen all at once. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Whoever got the first solid hit. This. See HMS Hood for details. Hood had almost no protection from a plunging shell. All 3 of the ones mentioned were much more heavily armored. Aside from that, some former crew of the Hood testified to sloppy ammunition handling practices that could have been the reason a single hit caused her demise. Nothing definite since there were so few survivors but even a stout protection scheme will fail if crew set it up to fail Yep, now I remember reading about that. You're right. I think that was one of those once in a lifetime things where all kinds of bad things had to happen all at once. Hood died just like every other British Battle-cruiser did. BC's were very vulnerable to Battleships; and the Brits had some noted design deficiencies in theirs. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 7:21:01 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Partly true. Speed does not matter in a battleship fight. At least not at this degree. You either fight, or you run away. The British, German, and Japanese battleships were akin to Karate fighters. They went into battle under the delusion that they would not be hit at all. The US battleships were like boxers. It was understood from the beginning the they would be hit, and they were designed to get hit, and keep fighting. Any US battleship from the Colorado class forward, would have easily sunk the Bismark, and any US battleship from the Nevada class forward, would have probably sunk the Bismark. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Iowa wins it over all the others. Furthermore, I believe a Colorado Class would have also done well against the Bismark. Maybe...if the Bismarck had cut her engines and was dead in the water. The Colorado class were built for slugging it out with other BBs, but their top speed was only about 22 knots, significantly slower than the Bismarck. The Germans would have either run away or ran circles around her. Partly true. Speed does not matter in a battleship fight. At least not at this degree. You either fight, or you run away. The British, German, and Japanese battleships were akin to Karate fighters. They went into battle under the delusion that they would not be hit at all. The US battleships were like boxers. It was understood from the beginning the they would be hit, and they were designed to get hit, and keep fighting. Any US battleship from the Colorado class forward, would have easily sunk the Bismark, and any US battleship from the Nevada class forward, would have probably sunk the Bismark. In a one-on-one fight, speed and maneuverability can make a big difference. The only battleship-on-battleship encounter involving pre-war US BBs was the Battle of Surigao Strait, which isn't a very good example because the Japanese 1) were outnumbered 3 to 1 by the US ships, and 2) they basically did a Samurai charge at the US battle line. Not surprisingly, they got creamed. I'd have a hard time betting against the Bismarck if it encountered a Colorado class ship in May of 1941. Most of the older US BBs did not have advanced fire control systems installed before Pearl Harbor; that was a wartime upgrade. Take away the superior fire control and the Bismarck would have the edge. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 7:21:58 PM EDT
[#44]
'''''''''
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 7:22:01 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Iowa wins it over all the others. Furthermore, I believe a Colorado Class would have also done well against the Bismark. Probably anything we had still in Service, sans possibly Arkansas and her 12" guns. Our 14's were good guns, and even the unmodified USN BB's had good fire control, it just got better. Bismark has a 'good reputation' because she killed the Hood. But Hood is far from the only British Battlecruiser to face a BB and lose badly. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 7:22:25 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OFFS What are you, 5? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
At 05.52, look outs on the Graf Spee saw two tall masts on the horizon. By 06.00, Langsdorff had identified one of the ships seen as being the Exeter. He decided that the ships trailing the Graf Spee were protecting an important merchant convoy and he decided to attack. And then he ran. OFFS What are you, 5? I guess that would make you 4 then, huh. 
He fucking ran the first time he tangled with British warships. I don't know why you want to try to make it otherwise. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 7:24:52 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Very well trained gunners. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Any US Fast Battleship would have handled the Bismark easily, and the Yamato slightly less easily. The Iowa's were the best of them, but from a Fire-Control standpoint... It's not close. We'd be getting hits in numbers and at ranges neither the Japanese nor the Germans could even dream of. Yamato at least has the advantage that her shells would hurt more than ours would. Bismark doesn't even have that. (If Tirpitz would have come out while Washington was operating with the UK's fleet in '42, it would have saved the Brits a -lot- of trouble) Well the German crews were the thing to be feared if anything else. Not that it would have much mattered in this scenario. They were very good at dying? Very well trained gunners. That might have gotten them somewhere in WWI. The gunners on the Kirishima were pretty good too. That does not count against US radar that is so far ahead of you, technology-wise, that you are dead before you know you are in a fight. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 7:26:17 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Any US Fast Battleship would have handled the Bismark easily, and the Yamato slightly less easily. The Iowa's were the best of them, but from a Fire-Control standpoint... It's not close. We'd be getting hits in numbers and at ranges neither the Japanese nor the Germans could even dream of. Yamato at least has the advantage that her shells would hurt more than ours would. Bismark doesn't even have that. (If Tirpitz would have come out while Washington was operating with the UK's fleet in '42, it would have saved the Brits a -lot- of trouble) Well the German crews were the thing to be feared if anything else. Not that it would have much mattered in this scenario. They were very good at dying? That might have gotte3n them somewhere in WWI. The gunners on the Kirishima were pretty good too. That does not count against US radar that is so far ahead of you, technology-wise, that you are dead before you know you are in a fight. Very well trained gunners. Yeah I know...hence my comment about it not mattering. It was only meant to point out that the German crews were probably superior to the Japanese ones (and British for that matter) when responding to his post about the Yamato. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 7:26:42 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If Halsey had not taken the bait, the Jap battleships would have turned around and headed for home. If you know your history, you know that's true. If Halsey had stayed with the landing forces, the carrier planes would have sunk the Yamato. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Bismark was the best battleship in the world when she launched. Not so much a year or two later. If Halsey hadn't screwed the pooch at Leyte Gulf, a couple Iowa class ships might have got the chance to sink Yamato. If Halsey had not taken the bait, the Jap battleships would have turned around and headed for home. If you know your history, you know that's true. If Halsey had stayed with the landing forces, the carrier planes would have sunk the Yamato. Actually Ozawa was ordered to turn back around and continue the attack. Their plan was for 3rd Fleet to go after the Northern Force, which it did. Halsey should have detached TF 34 when he went after the decoy force. Lee would sunk every one of Japanese ships. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2013 7:27:22 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I remember reading about the mechanical computers used in the fire control systems of the BBs. Really impressive analog computing technology. SMART people built that! I don't know if we have anybody left who would have the knowhow to build equally good analog computer mechanisms today, or even someone who would know how to design such a thing. It might be a lost art. But then again, it IS EMP-proof so perhaps it's not completely useless tech. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Still no link. The thread is about BBs, not DDs. Fire control computer was the same. Thus, it is relevant. Really impressive analog computing technology. SMART people built that! I don't know if we have anybody left who would have the knowhow to build equally good analog computer mechanisms today, or even someone who would know how to design such a thing. It might be a lost art. But then again, it IS EMP-proof so perhaps it's not completely useless tech. EMPs have to be the most excessively masturbated-to non-problem, ever. It is perfectly possible to shield modern computers against EMI and any reasonably likely EMP effect. But I will agree, those computers are impressive... Last I knew, there was one on display on the USS Texas. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
.jpg)
