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Quoted: Are you saying God couldn't do that if He wanted to? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: YEC is asinine. It's beyond asinine. It's like saying the Earth was created two minutes ago with everyone's memories intact. No, it's not flawed. YEC teaches that God created the universe 6-10,000 years ago and made it so we can see the light from stars hundreds of thousands of light-years away even though they wouldn't have had time to reach us yet. That's creation with the appearance of age. If you go down that path, yes, you might as well say we were created two minutes ago with our memories in place and everything appearing to be older. Are you saying God couldn't do that if He wanted to? How would I know? I do know that any God who did that would be engaging in deception. |
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Quoted: So all of academia is wrong? Every scientist on earth that studies archeology, geology, anthropology, physics,etc is wrong? The Hubble telescope is wrong? The James Webb telescope is wrong? All the experimentation that independent labs replicate daily are wrong? And your old book is right. That's what you expect us to believe? You've sure got your work cut out for yourself to actually demonstrate your claims to be true. View Quote |
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Quoted: Yes, they were. https://creation.com/scientists-of-the-past-who-believed-in-a-creator View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: No, they weren't. https://creation.com/scientists-of-the-past-who-believed-in-a-creator 1. I'm not taking the word of that website for ANYTHING. 2. Believing in a creator is NOT the same as being a young-Earth creationist. |
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Quoted: God inspired the words Moses wrote, He was there, and you weren't. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: The linked article assumes that young earth creationism is what the Bible teaches. In fact, this is a misunderstanding of the Bible. The Bible was written long before the invention of science. It was written to people who knew nothing about science (which did not exist), geology, biology or anything of the sort... and the audience cared nothing about these non-existent fields of study. There is no science in the Bible as a result. Trying to pull scientific information where it does not exist yields absurdities, like saying the earth must be 6,000 years old or so. No one who wrote or read the Bible (in the original audiences) cared about this, nor was the Bible written to address these topics. The Bible as written reflects the worldview of the ancient near east audience, and should be read with this in view to prevent confusion. For example, the seven days of creation have an weird format. Day 1 is creation of light. Three days later is the creation of the sources of light (sun and moon). Day 2 is the creation of the firmament (division between the water and heavens). Three days later is the creation of the sea and air creatures (winged animals). Day 3 is the creation of dry land and plants.... three days later is the creation of land animals and people. Do you catch this pattern? The days of Genesis are not in any kind of chronological order, they are a poetic structure... The creation story is in the form on an ancient poem glorifying God for creating the heavens and the earth, it is not supposed to tell us that light was created before the sun... Young earth creationist torture the bible to try and find science that would have just confused ancient people. If you are interested in learning to read Genesis, and understand it like the original audience did (well, at least as much as we can) there is a really good book that covers this topic, A Worldview Approach to Science and Scripture by Carol A. Hill. Physics, astronomy, archaeology, geology, anthropology...none of these disprove-or prove- the existence of God. God, as a proposition, can neither be falsified or proven. It's faith. Proof actually negates faith, because it's no longer needed. I don't have faith that gravity works, I can prove it. Understanding it is another story. Faith in the message is its own reward, or not. Christianity insists on faith. Pascal's Wager doesn't work. |
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Quoted: -Doesn't believe in evolution because it's not in the Bible -Believes in a pre-Trib Rapture that's not in the Bible View Quote |
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Quoted: Evolution is a sacramental belief of the Church of atheism. Genesis is a Foundational belief required for Christianity. You can not reconcile evolution nor theistic evolution and be a Christian. You may try, but it will fail. Evolution is a demonic idea to subvert belief in Christ. It's Satan's attempt to be a "creator". Most scientists & Christians were YEC. It takes more faith to believe in evolution with all the holes in the theory, than a Super natural creator who made it all on His timeline. I didn't always feel this way. But, within the last 5yrs, I've come to realize this. God didn't lie. View Quote |
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I'm a preacher's kid. I know a lot of preachers. They all believe Genesis is a parable but they're not going to say that in public because of stupid people in their congregation like the OP.
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Quoted: 1. I'm not taking the word of that website for ANYTHING. 2. Believing in a creator is NOT the same as being a young-Earth creationist. View Quote |
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Quoted: Uh, yeah, huge swaths of academia are wrong about a WHOLE lot of things. The telescopes are machines, they aren't particularly right or wrong, pretty much everyone, creationist/non-creationist is using the same facts, it's ALL in the interpretation of those facts...that's the issue. My old book, says, Thou shalt not murder, is it right about that? I believe God rather than fallible and fallen men. Maybe the article isn't for you. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: So all of academia is wrong? Every scientist on earth that studies archeology, geology, anthropology, physics,etc is wrong? The Hubble telescope is wrong? The James Webb telescope is wrong? All the experimentation that independent labs replicate daily are wrong? And your old book is right. That's what you expect us to believe? You've sure got your work cut out for yourself to actually demonstrate your claims to be true. The article is certainly not for me. I highly recommend you go to your local community college and start reading. There's a lot of books out there. Some comport to reality better than others. Actual science is a good place to start. It isn't too late to escape ignorance. |
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Quoted: Maybe those fossils were laid down by great amounts of water. Maybe, evolutionists are forever looking for those transitions that had to happen by, at least, the millions, but yet are so elusive. But, then, that has nothing to do with the article, at least directly. View Quote If you ignore thing like geology and physics, absolutely. Anything is possible if you’re comfortable just making shit up. |
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Quoted: Was God going to inspire Moses to lay out the nuts and bolts of the history and construction of the universe...which would do nothing to keep those rowdy Israelites in line, or give him a "Just so" story and move on to the ethical stuff that mattered to a tribe of Bronze Age sheepherders? Physics, astronomy, archaeology, geology, anthropology...none of these disprove-or prove- the existence of God. God, as a proposition, can neither be falsified or proven. It's faith. Proof actually negates faith, because it's no longer needed. I don't have faith that gravity works, I can prove it. Understanding it is another story. Faith in the message is its own reward, or not. Christianity insists on faith. Pascal's Wager doesn't work. View Quote |
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Quoted: Evolution is a sacramental belief of the Church of atheism. Genesis is a Foundational belief required for Christianity. You can not reconcile evolution nor theistic evolution and be a Christian. You may try, but it will fail. Evolution is a demonic idea to subvert belief in Christ. It's Satan's attempt to be a "creator". Most scientists & Christians were YEC. It takes more faith to believe in evolution with all the holes in the theory, than a Super natural creator who made it all on His timeline. I didn't always feel this way. But, within the last 5yrs, I've come to realize this. God didn't lie. View Quote Einstein objected to Quantum Physics saying "God doesn't play dice with the Universe," Why not? Eternal, omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent...He can roll a hard six every time. The cosmos and life clearly evolve. The exact mechanism and details are TBD. But if God chose Natural Selection to build His creation who are you to tell him it's wrong? Free Will requires a stochastic universe...otherwise life is just a brutal passion play. |
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Quoted: Was God going to inspire Moses to lay out the nuts and bolts of the history and construction of the universe...which would do nothing to keep those rowdy Israelites in line, or give him a "Just so" story and move on to the ethical stuff that mattered to a tribe of Bronze Age sheepherders? Physics, astronomy, archaeology, geology, anthropology...none of these disprove-or prove- the existence of God. God, as a proposition, can neither be falsified or proven. It's faith. Proof actually negates faith, because it's no longer needed. I don't have faith that gravity works, I can prove it. Understanding it is another story. Faith in the message is its own reward, or not. Christianity insists on faith. Pascal's Wager doesn't work. View Quote But to science, prove by the laws of science you were here on earth 2 weeks ago. |
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Quoted: YEC is asinine. It's beyond asinine. It's like saying the Earth was created two minutes ago with everyone's memories intact. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: I'm a young earth creationist, and found this article interesting. I do believe that many in the church who hold an OE view are in fact compromised, how badly, I'm not sure, but it is a big problem in my mind. Even Dawkins thinks so, one of the few times I agree with him. See what you think. https://creation.com/refuting-atheists-useful-dupes YEC is asinine. It's beyond asinine. It's like saying the Earth was created two minutes ago with everyone's memories intact. Yeah I used to think YEC was ridiculous too. Then I started thinking of the alternative, that we supposedly came from rocks or ooze and all life is related. Well I’m not related to a banana. Factor in that there’s no confirmed proof that an object has “evolved” into something completely different and it’s hard to say what’s right. The fact is, NO ONE knows for sure. It’s all theories and even in this modern age, mankind is still just a dumbass mammal trying to explain its existence. |
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Quoted: I'm a preacher's kid. I know a lot of preachers. They all believe Genesis is a parable but they're not going to say that in public because of stupid people in their congregation like the OP. View Quote |
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Quoted: Evolution is a sacramental belief of the Church of atheism. Genesis is a Foundational belief required for Christianity. You can not reconcile evolution nor theistic evolution and be a Christian. You may try, but it will fail. Evolution is a demonic idea to subvert belief in Christ. It's Satan's attempt to be a "creator". Most scientists & Christians were YEC. It takes more faith to believe in evolution with all the holes in the theory, than a Super natural creator who made it all on His timeline. I didn't always feel this way. But, within the last 5yrs, I've come to realize this. God didn't lie. View Quote Jesus Christ, dude. Save some god for the rest of us. |
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Quoted: You seem to look down upon those that were at the beginning, I don't. The rest of your post is just modern day hubris. Excluding myself from the equation...look how smart we are today. All the while we rape, pillage, and murder. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Was God going to inspire Moses to lay out the nuts and bolts of the history and construction of the universe...which would do nothing to keep those rowdy Israelites in line, or give him a "Just so" story and move on to the ethical stuff that mattered to a tribe of Bronze Age sheepherders? Physics, astronomy, archaeology, geology, anthropology...none of these disprove-or prove- the existence of God. God, as a proposition, can neither be falsified or proven. It's faith. Proof actually negates faith, because it's no longer needed. I don't have faith that gravity works, I can prove it. Understanding it is another story. Faith in the message is its own reward, or not. Christianity insists on faith. Pascal's Wager doesn't work. As far as pillage and murder today? The Old Testament is NC-17. |
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Quoted: If you ignore thing like geology and physics, absolutely. Anything is possible if you’re comfortable just making shit up. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Maybe those fossils were laid down by great amounts of water. Maybe, evolutionists are forever looking for those transitions that had to happen by, at least, the millions, but yet are so elusive. But, then, that has nothing to do with the article, at least directly. If you ignore thing like geology and physics, absolutely. Anything is possible if you’re comfortable just making shit up. No shit. Fossils are just one little teeny part of it. Plate tectonics, vulcanism, the formation and erosion of mountain ranges, repeated cycles of glaciation..... pretty hard to explain that stuff away by saying "oh the Earth was covered in water for 40 days". To believe that the Earth is only 6000 (or whatever) years old, means you also believe in a God who intentionally misled you by leaving a whole shit-ton of evidence supporting the fact that the planet is billions of years old. |
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Quoted: Don't then, it's up to you. I never said that believing in a creator is the same thing as YEC. But I do believe that YEC is what the Creator in the bible has revealed. I don't know anything about your view of the creator you speak of. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: 1. I'm not taking the word of that website for ANYTHING. 2. Believing in a creator is NOT the same as being a young-Earth creationist. We're not talking about what I claim, we're talking about YOU saying most early scientists of the west were YEC. Then you totally blow off the fact that they probably had no interest whatsoever in the concept. They believed in a God who created the universe. Not the same thing. |
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Quoted: The article is certainly not for me. I highly recommend you go to your local community college and start reading. There's a lot of books out there. Some comport to reality better than others. Actual science is a good place to start. It isn't too late to escape ignorance. View Quote |
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Quoted: Yes, they were. https://creation.com/scientists-of-the-past-who-believed-in-a-creator View Quote The much bigger problem with YEC is the Y, not the C. It's easy to splice a creator in with science and common sense. It's impossible to incorporate a 6000 year old earth in with everything else we know. As mentioned, you'd need to believe that millions of data points were planted false evidence. |
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Quoted: Thank you for your concern, but I think I'll stick with scientists who respect and believe the word of God. I did escape ignorance, I escaped old earth creationism, and it's parent...Darwinian evolution. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: The article is certainly not for me. I highly recommend you go to your local community college and start reading. There's a lot of books out there. Some comport to reality better than others. Actual science is a good place to start. It isn't too late to escape ignorance. |
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Quoted: How do you know that some for of science didn't exist? They understood how pro-creation worked, they understood and had a pretty good idea of how to build things and survive. They moved from the stone age to the bronze age and so forth. "Science" means knowledge, they had some, maybe more than we think. View Quote Science is a process of of coming up the ideas and testing them with experiments. Ancient man did not do this, their world view was totally different. Their worldview was mystical. For example, for ancient man, all the numbers had mystical symbolism, in addition to being things you can use for calculations. We have only a few remenants of this idea, such as the lucky number 7, and unlucky 13. For the ancients, all numbers had symbolism! When you look at the ages of the patriarchs in Genesis, they fall into bizarre patterns... they are not random at all... this is a huge hint that these ages are not meant to be taken literally, but are rather symbolic in nature... but we have lost the meaning of these symbolic numbers. When modern man reads the ages of the patriarchs, we try and apply a scientific worldview to something that is mystical and symbolic in meaning... and people end up trying to calculate the age of the universe based on these lists of ages... it is based on a misunderstanding of the worldview of ancient man. Genesis is not the only places where ages are used like this... there is a ancient list of Sumerian kings that gives reigns of thousands of years for some kings. Because these numbers are symbolic, rather than literal. It is a fascinating subject. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_King_List |
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Quoted: Evolution is a sacramental belief of the Church of atheism. Genesis is a Foundational belief required for Christianity. You can not reconcile evolution nor theistic evolution and be a Christian. You may try, but it will fail. Evolution is a demonic idea to subvert belief in Christ. It's Satan's attempt to be a "creator". Most scientists & Christians were YEC. It takes more faith to believe in evolution with all the holes in the theory, than a Super natural creator who made it all on His timeline. I didn't always feel this way. But, within the last 5yrs, I've come to realize this. God didn't lie. View Quote Any day of the week I would prefer to be neighbors with a Christian, and believe that Judeo-Christian principals and morals are superior to all others, but stuff like this makes Christianity a club that I'm not really compelled to be in. If God is who they say he is, I think I'll be just fine. |
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Quoted: Actually I don't. I vehemently disagree with the "Ancient Aliens" theorists who insist that the Egyptians couldn't stack rocks. As far as pillage and murder today? The Old Testament is NC-17. View Quote Yes, both testaments don't hide the depravity of men, it's not a book of flattery. |
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Quoted: The linked article assumes that young earth creationism is what the Bible teaches. In fact, this is a misunderstanding of the Bible. The Bible was written long before the invention of science. It was written to people who knew nothing about science (which did not exist), geology, biology or anything of the sort... and the audience cared nothing about these non-existent fields of study. There is no science in the Bible as a result. Trying to pull scientific information where it does not exist yields absurdities, like saying the earth must be 6,000 years old or so. No one who wrote or read the Bible (in the original audiences) cared about this, nor was the Bible written to address these topics. The Bible as written reflects the worldview of the ancient near east audience, and should be read with this in view to prevent confusion. For example, the seven days of creation have an weird format. Day 1 is creation of light. Three days later is the creation of the sources of light (sun and moon). Day 2 is the creation of the firmament (division between the water and heavens). Three days later is the creation of the sea and air creatures (winged animals). Day 3 is the creation of dry land and plants.... three days later is the creation of land animals and people. Do you catch this pattern? The days of Genesis are not in any kind of chronological order, they are a poetic structure... The creation story is in the form on an ancient poem glorifying God for creating the heavens and the earth, it is not supposed to tell us that light was created before the sun... Young earth creationist torture the bible to try and find science that would have just confused ancient people. If you are interested in learning to read Genesis, and understand it like the original audience did (well, at least as much as we can) there is a really good book that covers this topic, A Worldview Approach to Science and Scripture by Carol A. Hill. I would like to add that I do not think that creationists are stupid, or anything of the sort. It is a very easy mistake to make when reading the Bible... modern men, who practice and care about science read the Bible and try and work their worldview into it... is natural to us, but would be utterly alien to the original audience of the Bible. View Quote This. |
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Quoted: We're not talking about what I claim, we're talking about YOU saying most early scientists of the west were YEC. Then you totally blow off the fact that they probably had no interest whatsoever in the concept. They believed in a God who created the universe. Not the same thing. View Quote |
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Quoted: No, it's not flawed. YEC teaches that God created the universe 6-10,000 years ago and made it so we can see the light from stars hundreds of thousands of light-years away even though they wouldn't have had time to reach us yet. That's creation with the appearance of age. If you go down that path, yes, you might as well say we were created two minutes ago with our memories in place and everything appearing to be older. View Quote If one is to believe in a literal Genesis, it already requires an appearance of age. Adam was formed fully mature, yet was not a full day old. I assume that was the same with every other living creature, unless you have eggs hatching themselves. If the appearance of age was required for living creatures, then a fully ‘adult’ universe being made in six days isn’t outside that model. |
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Quoted: The much bigger problem with YEC is the Y, not the C. It's easy to splice a creator in with science and common sense. It's impossible to incorporate a 6000 year old earth in with everything else we know. As mentioned, you'd need to believe that millions of data points were planted false evidence. View Quote |
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I am a young earther, but as a Christian, the age of the earth sits just above the possibility of aliens in things that I give much thought to. I figure I'll ask just ask God himself when I am sitting at his table.
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How and when the Earth was created is not the important question. The relevant question is who you say Jesus Christ is.
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Quoted: He's saying your source material is biased. View Quote |
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Quoted: Science is a process of of coming up the ideas and testing them with experiments. Ancient man did not do this, their world view was totally different. Their worldview was mystical. For example, for ancient man, all the numbers had mystical symbolism, in addition to being things you can use for calculations. We have only a few remenants of this idea, such as the lucky number 7, and unlucky 13. For the ancients, all numbers had symbolism! When you look at the ages of the patriarchs in Genesis, they fall into bizarre patterns... they are not random at all... this is a huge hint that these ages are not meant to be taken literally, but are rather symbolic in nature... but we have lost the meaning of these symbolic numbers. When modern man reads the ages of the patriarchs, we try and apply a scientific worldview to something that is mystical and symbolic in meaning... and people end up trying to calculate the age of the universe based on these lists of ages... it is based on a misunderstanding of the worldview of ancient man. Genesis is not the only places where ages are used like this... there is a ancient list of Sumerian kings that gives reigns of thousands of years for some kings. Because these numbers are symbolic, rather than literal. It is a fascinating subject. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_King_List View Quote |
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Quoted: Of course it's bias, just like everyone else, they are quite honest about it. Everyone, everyone has presuppositions they interpret the world through. The atheistic science interprets through some form of materialism/naturalism, the YEC, through God's word. No surprise there. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: He's saying your source material is biased. So you did understand his points? If I look up confirmation for my flat earth belief on pro flat earth websites I'm likely to get it correct? |
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michaeljordanstopitgetsomehelp.gif because I cant find it anymore
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Quoted: Actually they did, they were very much interested in the workings of God and in that context, almost to a man took Genesis as literal history. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: We're not talking about what I claim, we're talking about YOU saying most early scientists of the west were YEC. Then you totally blow off the fact that they probably had no interest whatsoever in the concept. They believed in a God who created the universe. Not the same thing. No, they did not. In fact, none of them probably even considered the concept of YEC. That concept is very recent. |
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Quoted: If one is to believe in a literal Genesis, it already requires an appearance of age. Adam was formed fully mature, yet was not a full day old. I assume that was the same with every other living creature, unless you have eggs hatching themselves. If the appearance of age was required for living creatures, then a fully 'adult' universe being made in six days isn't outside that model. View Quote |
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By compromises you mean heretics?
Let’s see I’m a Christian who would be considered reformed. I am completely okay with an old or young earth view. I lean old earth. I won’t argue it anymore it’s not worth it. In my opinion Hebrew clearly gives credence to allow for an old earth theory. Unfortunately instead of worrying about sin the lost and making disciples. Christians judge each other on something that no one can completely confirm. Augustine one of the early fathers was speaking on this almost two thousand years ago. |
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Quoted: Don't know what people you speak of, but the veracity and infallibility of the scriptures is an article of faith in my church. Darwinist, like Dawkins, seem to understand the issue a lot more than Collins and Biologos. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: This is why people refer to YEC as more of a religious article of faith than a scientific theory. My point exactly. Scientific theories are falsifiable. As new evidence is discovered, they can be modified to better fit the observed reality. YEC is not falsifiable because, by your own admission, it depends on the infallibility of "the Word of God." No amount of observed reality can modify its teachings because no evidence is considered valid if it might disprove the conclusion. Its a belief system that assigns value to evidence only if it agrees with the pre-selected conclusion. In other word, its a belief that relies on faith and cannot be swayed by evidence. I YEC likes to pretend to be science but it almost instantly reveals itself as an article of faith when put to any kind of scrutiny. |
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