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Posted: 10/16/2023 12:35:19 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Peter had something to say about false teachers. Set this thread's author aside. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 12:36:35 AM EDT
[#2]
Why would God specifically instruct the jews in exodus not to lay with their sisters and cousins but create humans and expect them to be fruitful and multiply with their brothers and sisters and cousins?
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Posted: 10/16/2023 12:36:55 AM EDT
[#3]
Why can't the YEC and OEC both be correct?
If there is a being capable of creating the universe, then we are less than a fart in the wind on a cosmic scale. 6,000 or several billion years old; when one is beyond the constraints of time, the difference is basically a couple seconds. I'm not saying there isn't a creator, and I'm not saying there is; but a creator that demands you do no evil, but refuses to prevent the evil done to you is not worth the title of god. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 12:37:20 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Their sisters. Where does it say that in scripture? |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 12:40:34 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I said that the first children appeared after the fall. My view is at least 9 months and a day after the fall. So you are speculating and assuming? |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 12:41:20 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why would God specifically instruct the jews in exodus not to lay with their sisters and cousins but create humans and expect them to be fruitful and multiply with their brothers and sisters and cousins? |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 12:47:21 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why can't the YEC and OEC both be correct? If there is a being capable of creating the universe, then we are less than a fart in the wind on a cosmic scale. 6,000 or several billion years old; when one is beyond the constraints of time, the difference is basically a couple seconds. I'm not saying there isn't a creator, and I'm not saying there is; but a creator that demands you do no evil, but refuses to prevent the evil done to you is not worth the title of god. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 12:49:24 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Where does it say that in scripture? |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 12:51:01 AM EDT
[#9]
The Bible does not teach a young earth. It tells us that God created it "in the beginning."
And, it also teaches us that humans were not the first inhabitants of the earth, but it does so incidentally because it isn't really what's important to mankind. (But it does pretty much go along with the hubris of man to claim that he must have been there from the beginning, doesn't it?) Being reconciled to our Creator is what's important. Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again from the dead. Simply believe that truth and be forgiven. The Bible is a fascinating book. It's a shame that people don't study it as often as they should, and many of those who study it don't believe what it actually says. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 12:53:29 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you are speculating and assuming? |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 12:54:57 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Bible does not teach a young earth. It tells us that God created it "in the beginning." And, it also teaches us that humans were not the first inhabitants of the earth, but it does so incidentally because it isn't really what's important to mankind. (But it does pretty much go along with the hubris of man to claim that he must have been there from the beginning, doesn't it?) Being reconciled to our Creator is what's important. Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again from the dead. Simply believe that truth and be forgiven. The Bible is a fascinating book. It's a shame that people don't study it as often as they should, and many of those who study it don't believe what it actually says. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 12:56:40 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's deduced from the scriptures. There were no others available to them. And we know that later it wasn't uncommon at all for people to marry their 1st cousins. "Speculative at best." |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 1:01:21 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "Speculative at best." |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 1:07:45 AM EDT
[#14]
Genesis 1 doesn't even mention adam or eve.
20 And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the dome of the sky.” 21 So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, of every kind, with which the waters swarm, and every winged bird of every kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23 And there was evening and there was morning, the fifth day. 24 And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures of every kind: cattle and creeping things and wild animals of the earth of every kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals of the earth of every kind, and the cattle of every kind, and everything that creeps upon the ground of every kind. And God saw that it was good. 26 Then God said, “Let us make humankind[c] in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth,[d] and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.” 27 So God created humankind[e] in his image, in the image of God he created them;[f] male and female he created them. 28 God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.” 29 God said, “See, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so. 31 God saw everything that he had made, and indeed, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. He makes the beasts and then humankind. Genesis 2 he makes man and then beasts. Genesis 2 also reads much more.like a parabel with a talking snake... Or maybe is just a more specific telling of the lineage of Jesus and Moses and a particular geography... |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 1:09:23 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who then? Other people who maybe were not created as God's image or gifted paradise to fall from. I don't know and neither do you. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 1:17:06 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Other people who maybe were not created as God's image or gifted paradise to fall from. I don't know and neither do you. Other "people" not created in God's image, are they actually "people" or are they something else. "People" is only used for image bearers in the scriptures. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 1:21:31 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Genesis 1 doesn't even mention adam or eve. He makes the beasts and then humankind. Genesis 2 he makes man and then beasts. Genesis 2 also reads much more.like a parabel with a talking snake... Or maybe is just a more specific telling of the lineage of Jesus and Moses and a particular geography... Satan is crafty, isn't he? |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 1:23:57 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Genesis 2 isn't a specific day by day chronology, but describing things that happened related to the creation. Genesis 1 gives a specific chronological order to the creation of things. Genesis 2 also gives a specific yet seemingly contradictory chronological order to the creation of things. Are they both literal and infallible while also being contradictory? |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 1:28:41 AM EDT
[#19]
All you have to do is look up and see the stars to know that the Universe is extremely old.
Young Earth is easily disproven. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 1:32:11 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Genesis 1 gives a specific chronological order to the creation of things. Genesis 2 also gives a specific yet seemingly contradictory chronological order to the creation of things. Are they both literal and infallible while also being contradictory? |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 1:34:33 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All you have to do is look up and see the stars to know that the Universe is extremely old. Young Earth is easily disproven. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 1:36:22 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It matters because, what God is actually saying about things always matters, and inserting secular ideas about origins is undermining the faith and gospel. God is under no obligation to do anything about evil. He could have judged us all and condemned us. Suffering has a purpose, to teach His people about love in the face of trials, to teach us about grace and mercy, to draw us near to Him for strength, to commune with Him, because He loves us when the world hates us. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Why can't the YEC and OEC both be correct? If there is a being capable of creating the universe, then we are less than a fart in the wind on a cosmic scale. 6,000 or several billion years old; when one is beyond the constraints of time, the difference is basically a couple seconds. I'm not saying there isn't a creator, and I'm not saying there is; but a creator that demands you do no evil, but refuses to prevent the evil done to you is not worth the title of god. Science isn’t secular. You’ve made that rigid rule. Is vacuuming secular? |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 1:38:47 AM EDT
[#23]
Before I go to bed, I really want to thank the brothers that were with me on this. I hope some out there in the church actually read the article. And I hope the brother's that differ might change their minds someday.
And I really want to know, especially from Criley, who inhabited the earth before us. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 1:55:01 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Science isn't secular. You've made that rigid rule. Is vacuuming secular? |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 1:58:01 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You read a contradiction, I don't. Its there in black and white. I quoted gen 1 already. Beasts then man. Below gen 2 man and then beasts. They are both specific and give chronological order. These are contradictory in what you have described as your understanding. 15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.” 18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper as his partner.” 19 So out of the ground the Lord God formed every animal of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the air, and to every animal of the field; but for the man[c] there was not found a helper as his partner. 21 So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then he took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. 22 And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 2:03:37 AM EDT
[#26]
Jesus is highly critical of the scribes and pharisees.
They are quoted as the authority stating cain married his sister. I look at gen 1 and gen 2 and question that assertion. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 2:04:38 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Genesis 1 doesn't even mention adam or eve. He makes the beasts and then humankind. Genesis 2 he makes man and then beasts. Genesis 2 also reads much more.like a parabel with a talking snake... Or maybe is just a more specific telling of the lineage of Jesus and Moses and a particular geography... Genesis 2 doesn’t say God made beasts after humans. It states God formed beasts or in some translations had formed beasts and took them to Adam. If I were to make a journal entry for my day, and on the first page I wrote that at 5pm I made dinner and at 6pm I did my homework. On the next page I wrote that I did my homework in my room and that I made dinner to bring to my room. That second page does not imply I did my homework first. The order I list items on the second page does not contradict or negate the first page. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 2:09:57 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Its there in black and white. I quoted gen 1 already. Beasts then man. Below gen 2 man and then beasts. They are both specific and give chronological order. These are contradictory in what you have described as your understanding. 15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die." 18 Then the Lord God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper as his partner." 19 So out of the ground the Lord God formed every animal of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the air, and to every animal of the field; but for the man[c] there was not found a helper as his partner. 21 So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then he took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. 22 And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 2:11:42 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Jesus is highly critical of the scribes and pharisees. They are quoted as the authority stating cain married his sister. I look at gen 1 and gen 2 and question that assertion. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 2:12:42 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Genesis 2 doesn't say God made beasts after humans. It states God formed beasts or in some translations had formed beasts and took them to Adam. If I were to make a journal entry for my day, and on the first page I wrote that at 5pm I made dinner and at 6pm I did my homework. On the next page I wrote that I did my homework in my room and that I made dinner to bring to my room. That second page does not imply I did my homework first. The order I list items on the second page does not contradict or negate the first page. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 2:14:35 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: I'm a young earth creationist, and found this article interesting. I do believe that many in the church who hold an OE view are in fact compromised Compromised? Lizard People? |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 2:15:08 AM EDT
[#32]
I accept that God created all things. How and when is irrelevant to my salvation and living the gospel of Jesus Christ. Christians spend too much time straining at gnats and swallowing camels. I’ll put my energy into loving God and my neighbor. I highly doubt we will be judged on our view of creationism.
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Posted: 10/16/2023 2:20:38 AM EDT
[#33]
I'm with St. Augustine. If something can be conclusively proven to be true about the World (read: the math works, the experiment is repeatable, you have hard evidence with no evidence to the contrary, etc), and it conflicts with Scripture.....it's very likely that your interpretation of Scripture needs a second look and might be flawed.
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Posted: 10/16/2023 2:23:21 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Compromised? Lizard People? |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 2:26:00 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I accept that God created all things. How and when is irrelevant to my salvation and living the gospel of Jesus Christ. Christians spend too much time straining at gnats and swallowing camels. I'll put my energy into loving God and my neighbor. I highly doubt we will be judged on our view of creationism. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 2:27:13 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm with St. Augustine. If something can be conclusively proven to be true about the World (read: the math works, the experiment is repeatable, you have hard evidence with no evidence to the contrary, etc), and it conflicts with Scripture.....it's very likely that your interpretation of Scripture needs a second look and might be flawed. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 2:33:48 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Paul built his doctrine of justification on the historic Adam, Jesus quotes Genesis. It's far from straining at gnats. Young people are leaving the church in droves because of stuff like this, they are being poisoned by the world. I'd say that the primary drivers of young people away from the churches (including the Church) is the sketchy behavior of the leaders of the churches. Corruption, foolish advocacy of easily-refutable dogmatic stances (both "Progressive" and Conservative*) with zero basis in Scripture or Tradition, and the poor catechization foisted on them as young kids. Not "Science". Plenty of hardcore Orthodox and Catholics and Anglicans got the same lessons in chemistry, physics, and mathematics that I did. None of us needed to be told that Noah rode a T-Rex, or the Earth began (despite massive physical evidence to the contrary) just a few millennia ago, in order to keep us with the Church. *-I'm a conservative Catholic on the traditional end of the spectrum, but a lot of "Trad-Caths" have become so toxic that they've started running younger folks off because they aren't interested in engaging with people who think that some fake rose-colored-glasses snapshot picture of the 1950's Church (which never really existed the way they imagine it) is literally the only permissible form of the Church. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 2:36:38 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can the age of the universe being conclusively proved? Within certain limits (the same physics and mathematics that underpins our understanding of the technology making this conversation possible also underpins our ability to calculate the expansion of Space-Time, radioactive decay in rocks). Exact age? Nope, not yet. We can certainly prove that it's some Billions of years old (unless God, for some reason, decided to actively deceive us and lead us into error....which he would not do, by essentially "faking" evidence that the Universe was older than it is). Genesis isn't trying to be a scientific manual. It was the religious experiences (literally, being their memory of their encounters with God) folks who lived in the late Neolithic/Early-to-Mid Bronze Age....and they simply lacked our frame of reference. I imagine that, had God chosen to reveal the messages within Genesis to people in the 1990's, instead, the whole book would be a discussion of how he arranged the ruleset of Quantum Mechanics so as to provide a strong Anthropic Principle and allow us to thrive in a Universe pretty well-calibrated for us... It isn't important that you believe that the Earth started on the date Bishop Usher calculated. Nor does believing the Universe to be very, very old necessitate an abandonment of religion. I'd say a God that works across Billions of years, arranging such depths of physical laws that we're still trying to characterize them, and yet has His eye on every human being....is pretty awesome. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 8:07:07 AM EDT
[#39]
My only question, which biblical canon are we talking about?
If the Christian canon, then the first catholic bible issued in 342 AD (which is the Bible of the Ethiopian Church from the first issuing of the catholic church to begin with), or later the deletes, rewrites and such over the decades for someone else way to power and profit instead? If we are talking that one, with 88 books in it, then isntead of just reading only the quotes pulled from them to drive the churches message that they want to make at the time, can we discuss the the entire content of the 88 books? Hell, if everyone is open then this, them maybe we can push back a little farther discuss Constantine first one, that the church would not agree on, before its rewrite into the first one sent out in 342AD instead. To take it one step farther, can we open it up to the Epic of Gilgamesh, which have been proven to be written around 2100 BC, and would place it's time only 2K years after then earth was formed in the current versions of the bible that places the world at only 6K year old. Hell at least in the apocryphal Book 1 of Enoch. Gilgamesh is named as one of the Giants killed by the biblical Flood, an event which is detailed in another apocryphal work, The Book of Watchers. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 8:09:26 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe those fossils were laid down by great amounts of water. Maybe, evolutionists are forever looking for those transitions that had to happen by, at least, the millions, but yet are so elusive. But, then, that has nothing to do with the article, at least directly. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You have to ignore alot of fossils and astronomy to believe our planet is 6000 years old. Yes i believe in a creating force also. You're trolling right? |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 8:11:06 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: I'm a young earth creationist, and found this article interesting. I do believe that many in the church who hold an OE view are in fact compromised, how badly, I'm not sure, but it is a big problem in my mind. Even Dawkins thinks so, one of the few times I agree with him. See what you think. https://creation.com/refuting-atheists-useful-dupes The problem for YEC is an infantile interpretation of the creation story based on poor transliteration. The Hebrew 'Yom' is not assumed to be what we know as a day, but can also mean age, or span of time. The morning and evening is a metaphor for the beginning and end of each age. Another words, the 6 ages or time spans were the progression of creation, and there is no definitive number of days or years of each to attempt to calculate the age of the earth from. Being rational, and knowing what we do through the study of Gods creation (science), helps us intelligently interpret Scripture. Another example is the story of Jonah and the whale. The transliterated Bible is full of poor word choices (depending on which your use) and metaphor/allegory that is taken literally that shouldn't be. It's a strange thing to get stuck on as well, as it has no bearing whatever on anything else that follows, yet people that believe it will act like is the ultimate litmus test and determines ones fate. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 8:13:32 AM EDT
[#42]
The earth is 6,000 to 8,000 years old.
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Posted: 10/16/2023 8:17:41 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You have to ignore alot of fossils and astronomy to believe our planet is 6000 years old. Yes i believe in a creating force also. The global flood changed everything. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 8:20:13 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It just says that He formed the animals out of the dust of the ground, doesn't say when He did that. You are adding a chronology where there isn't one. You're reading your contradiction into the text. It is not good that man should be alone. It says he created man "then"... |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 8:26:26 AM EDT
[#45]
At the time of the old testament not a single culture on the planet even had a word for the color blue yet.
Why would someone think creation would be inclined to share the the underpinnings of temporal reality to stone age and bronze age primates totally incapable of comprehending that reality or even having a language capable of conveying it in any meaningfully accurate way? |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 8:27:49 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I accept that God created all things. How and when is irrelevant to my salvation and living the gospel of Jesus Christ. Christians spend too much time straining at gnats and swallowing camels. I’ll put my energy into loving God and my neighbor. I highly doubt we will be judged on our view of creationism. Well said |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 8:33:46 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Paul built his doctrine of justification on the historic Adam, Jesus quotes Genesis. It's far from straining at gnats. Young people are leaving the church in droves because of stuff like this, they are being poisoned by the world. What specifically does Jesus quote from genesis that you are hung up on? |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 8:45:12 AM EDT
[#48]
The only side that’s compromised is the one attacking the other and calling them compromised. I take the old earth view, it’s entirely Biblical and fits with what we know about the natural world. The 6 days in Genesis were not literal 24 hour days, also between the first verse in Genesis and the second, where the earth was “formless and void”, could have been billions of years. There are theories that the world was void because it had been destroyed previously, maybe relating to the fall of Satan. Who knows? Its only a big deal to those who become dogmatic and militant about it.
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Posted: 10/16/2023 8:58:56 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You have to ignore alot of fossils and astronomy to believe our planet is 6000 years old. Yes i believe in a creating force also. Which fossils, specifically? |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 9:05:19 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Evolution is a sacramental belief of the Church of atheism. Genesis is a Foundational belief required for Christianity. You can not reconcile evolution nor theistic evolution and be a Christian. You may try, but it will fail. Evolution is a demonic idea to subvert belief in Christ. It's Satan's attempt to be a "creator". Most scientists & Christians were YEC. It takes more faith to believe in evolution with all the holes in the theory, than a Super natural creator who made it all on His timeline. I didn't always feel this way. But, within the last 5yrs, I've come to realize this. God didn't lie. What if the pastors and scholars that taught you that were actually being influenced by Lucifer, in order to make the message of your church and faith sound stupid to the general public, and prevent the message of Jesus from spreading and causing more and more people to cast away their faith? The science and understanding for the computer, phone, or tablet you are using to post such things contradicts what you are saying. You can have a Creator, and believe in the words of Jesus, and do your best to live by them, and you can have the speed of light, evolution, atomic theory, etc. Maybe instead of calling yourself a Christian you should call yourself a Biblician, as you seem to focus only on the words of the Old Testatment as opposed to the words of Jesus. |
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