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Posted: 6/10/2014 7:24:25 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here's the study I referenced earlier. http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/publicfiles/Ellifritz_Rnds_to_Incap.png So according to that chart, .44 magnum and .380 have roughly the same average rounds to incapacitation? And .25, .380, .22 & .32 incapacitate more quickly than .45? You don't say?  |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 7:27:16 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Never understood the hate for the .40 . It always seemed to be a potent and effective caliber to me (yes, I have used it on live targets). Is it because some pistols don't have a good track record with it? If so, which is at fault, the caliber or the gun? I know it has a sharper pressure curve than some other rounds but I always saw that as an advantage because it doesn't lose much performance in pistols with really short barrels.  My friend has a Sig that can do both .40 and .357 sig. .357 regularly gets 2" tighter groups than the .40. It's like the .40 wanders or something.
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Posted: 6/10/2014 7:31:44 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here's the study I referenced earlier. http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/publicfiles/Ellifritz_Rnds_to_Incap.png Interesting read. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 7:36:01 PM EDT
[#4]
9mm =~.40=~.45
Want incredible ballistics, pick up a long-gun... |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 7:44:14 PM EDT
[#5]
I just ordered two cases of bonded golden sabers. I hope those are decent.
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Posted: 6/10/2014 7:44:50 PM EDT
[#6]
I could give a shit less what pistol ammunition I have as long as I know it's reliable and and I have enough if it.
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Posted: 6/10/2014 7:47:49 PM EDT
[#7]
The studies I have seen along with this one seem to indicate that there is no baseline scientific body of evidence that can solidly state that common handgun calibers offer dramatic incapacitation performance over another common handgun caliber. This is why I went from being a bigtime .45 ACP guy, to 9mm. I have .45's, .40's, and 9's, but I have absolutely zero plans to ever buy a .45 ACP or .40 S&W ever again. I do most of my training with 9mm nowadays. 
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Posted: 6/10/2014 7:51:47 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/sites/buckeyefirearms.org/files/publicfiles/Ellifritz_Incapacitation.png The studies I have seen along with this one seem to indicate that there is no baseline scientific body of evidence that can solidly state that common handgun calibers offer dramatic incapacitation performance over another common handgun caliber. This is why I went from being a bigtime .45 ACP guy, to 9mm. I have .45's, .40's, and 9's, but I have absolutely zero plans to ever buy a .45 ACP or .40 S&W ever again. I do most of my training with 9mm nowadays. This is a very interesting study. I wonder what the graphic would look like if he neglected FMJ data. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 8:04:11 PM EDT
[#9]
I would like to hypothesize that if you could gather data on shootings in the East with 7.62x25 Tokarev, it would rate more like a .357 Magnum, and would be much higher than 9x18 Makarov.
.357 Sig gets better speed than revolvers since there is no barrel/cylinder gap, but is is very expensive. If you handload, the 9x25 Dillon is basically rifle performance from your handgun. Does over 2000fps interest you? Real world terminal performance looks like someone took a nuclear death punch, and fist-blasted someone to their meat burger chest. It shoots fireballs too. I'll stick to 9mm for the time being. 
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Posted: 6/10/2014 8:04:54 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.40 dominates USPSA Limited division, because the rules require .40 or larger bullet diameter to make "major". Open division allows .355 bullets to make major PF, and the .38 Super family and 9x19 rule the roost. Quote HistoryQuoted:
[b]Originally P
.40 s&w is popular in USPSA because it is just above the limit for major power factor with factory ammo. .40 dominates USPSA Limited division, because the rules require .40 or larger bullet diameter to make "major". Open division allows .355 bullets to make major PF, and the .38 Super family and 9x19 rule the roost. I'll take that one |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 8:06:45 PM EDT
[#11]
147 grain +p HST. FTW, Sold all my .40's. Shoot 9mm much better
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Posted: 6/10/2014 8:11:00 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is a very interesting study. I wonder what the graphic would look like if he neglected FMJ data. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/sites/buckeyefirearms.org/files/publicfiles/Ellifritz_Incapacitation.png The studies I have seen along with this one seem to indicate that there is no baseline scientific body of evidence that can solidly state that common handgun calibers offer dramatic incapacitation performance over another common handgun caliber. This is why I went from being a bigtime .45 ACP guy, to 9mm. I have .45's, .40's, and 9's, but I have absolutely zero plans to ever buy a .45 ACP or .40 S&W ever again. I do most of my training with 9mm nowadays. This is a very interesting study. I wonder what the graphic would look like if he neglected FMJ data. It might not go the way many people would think. I've been shot with 9mm FMJ, and I have 4 holes from one 115gr projectile. Two holes in a thoracic cavity will bleed you pretty well. My legs looked like drinking fountains in a cartoon, no really. I don't really care about exsanguination though, I care about the psychological and overmatch stop with rapid strings to the vitals. I frequently practice drawing from concealment and blasting to the heart, then through the center of the head with a terminal course lined up through the brain stem, and I do it at very close ranges from contact to a few yards, including the box drill with natural weapon violence and movement, multiple shooters, lateral and depth TGT arrays, movers, alternate positions, from within the car, after getting knocked over, with injuries, in extreme cold with heavy clothing.... Calibers are not big on my radar. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 8:12:15 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hey you've been at this topic a long time. Lots of respect for that. I've handloaded plenty - not really interested in talking about myself on this one though, doesn't matter. The thought here is going to the root of what it takes to cause rapid violent changes - which is energy, which is a function of how much fuel (gunpowder) was in the round. Yes, I'm well aware that 6 gr of Blue Dot can be far less energy than 5 gr of Bullseye in say a 9mm. Not all powders are the same. In a quick book check, I cross checked against 231 data for this one,
To the data in the photo... taking a closer look... of those, the two smallest diameter wound channels appear to be cartridges loaded with the least amount of gunpowder (the 9mm). The largest, appears to be what I would expect to have the highest powder charges (.357 sig and the .45). Why is is this so controversial as to border on insulting someone suggesting it? You posted a coherent thought in GD. In a 9x19mm vs .40" S&W thread. Expect your punishment. 
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Posted: 6/10/2014 8:12:49 PM EDT
[#14]
I've seen .45 expand out to almost an inch.
As long as your using 9,40,45 I think your doing good Just from my experience it seems like the 45 and 44 tend to do more damage than 38 or 9. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 8:18:23 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
IMHO .40 was the solution to a non-existent problem. Agree, unless you consider marketing more guns to be a problem. My other issue ( if it could be called that ) is that .40 has never been adopted by any military units therefore surplus/bulk ammo will never be available for it for training etc. Agree. It's more expensive to train with than 9mm. Agree. Quality defensive 9mm does just as much tissue damage as .40. Marginal difference but not significant enough to out weigh the cons A 9mm holds 50% more rounds than a .40 on the same frame sizeUmmm, I don't think so. My glock 34 holds 17 the glock 35 holds 15. Bhp was 10 or 11 vs 13. The difference on the s&w shield is 7 vs 8 or 8 vs 9. The M&P difference is the same as the glock. So while 9mm holds more bullets, it is no where near 50% even on the single stack shield it is only 12.5 or so. The list goes on and on and on... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Never understood the hate for the .40 . It always seemed to be a potent and effective caliber to me (yes, I have used it on live targets). Is it because some pistols don't have a good track record with it? If so, which is at fault, the caliber or the gun? I know it has a sharper pressure curve than some other rounds but I always saw that as an advantage because it doesn't lose much performance in pistols with really short barrels. IMHO .40 was the solution to a non-existent problem. Agree, unless you consider marketing more guns to be a problem. My other issue ( if it could be called that ) is that .40 has never been adopted by any military units therefore surplus/bulk ammo will never be available for it for training etc. Agree. It's more expensive to train with than 9mm. Agree. Quality defensive 9mm does just as much tissue damage as .40. Marginal difference but not significant enough to out weigh the cons A 9mm holds 50% more rounds than a .40 on the same frame sizeUmmm, I don't think so. My glock 34 holds 17 the glock 35 holds 15. Bhp was 10 or 11 vs 13. The difference on the s&w shield is 7 vs 8 or 8 vs 9. The M&P difference is the same as the glock. So while 9mm holds more bullets, it is no where near 50% even on the single stack shield it is only 12.5 or so. The list goes on and on and on... |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 8:23:28 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From Wikipedia: There are unconfirmed rumors that the PPZ will be available in 7.62×25mm Tokarev caliber. It is estimated that the magazine capacity in .45 ACP caliber will be 14 rounds, 15 rounds in .40 S&W caliber, 17 or 18 rounds in 9x19 mm (based on capacity increases prototyped in Zastava CZ 07 / M-07 prototype), while in 7.62x25mm the capacity is estimated to be 20 rounds. 
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I don't really care if I have FMJ's, .45 ACP, .40 S&W, 9mm, .380 ACP, or a .22 LR integrally suppressed MK II. I'm going to Bill Drill your vitals as accurately and quickly as I can, and you will go down. If I were to have one pistol cartridge, it would be 7.62x25, but there are no modern hi cap polymer framed guns chambered in it. I would love a 7.62x25 M&P. Zavasta PPZ in 7.62x25mm I want to believe!
From Wikipedia: There are unconfirmed rumors that the PPZ will be available in 7.62×25mm Tokarev caliber. It is estimated that the magazine capacity in .45 ACP caliber will be 14 rounds, 15 rounds in .40 S&W caliber, 17 or 18 rounds in 9x19 mm (based on capacity increases prototyped in Zastava CZ 07 / M-07 prototype), while in 7.62x25mm the capacity is estimated to be 20 rounds.
Sign me up, but I doubt we will ever see a modern design pistol in 7.62x25 hit the market. Too much political stigma attached to it. It will remain the best kept secret in pistol calibers and I'm ok with that. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 8:30:57 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From Wikipedia: There are unconfirmed rumors that the PPZ will be available in 7.62×25mm Tokarev caliber. It is estimated that the magazine capacity in .45 ACP caliber will be 14 rounds, 15 rounds in .40 S&W caliber, 17 or 18 rounds in 9x19 mm (based on capacity increases prototyped in Zastava CZ 07 / M-07 prototype), while in 7.62x25mm the capacity is estimated to be 20 rounds. I'm not following why a round w/ the same base as 9x19mm would end up w/ a larger magazine capacity in the same pistol. Is a Charter .327" your backup? 
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Posted: 6/10/2014 8:52:38 PM EDT
[#18]
Maybe we should ask some of the women if diameter matters
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Posted: 6/10/2014 9:32:44 PM EDT
[#19]
Damn, it wasn't that long ago that it was all ball ammo. 158 gr lead ball out of a 38 snub was known as a widow maker load and 45 ball was the shit.
Now everything is engineered, and not just expansion and penetration, but even taking into account barrel length. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 10:08:01 PM EDT
[#20]
I choose a .40S&W simply because of the fact that people chastise it. So yea, 9mm is just as good but if you are competent with your weapon, then more bullet should always be a good thing right?
I enjoy shooting with my friends that don't shoot 40S&W because of this whole .9mm vs .40S&W vs .45ACP thing. Its funny when they shoot my SR40 and fail at it because it's "to snappy" or "This gun sucks." I then proceed to show them what it can do, and then usually out shoot them with their own gun. But then again, none of my friends shoot and practive as near often as I do. I guess that's the point, fundamentals are everything and if you suck shooting pistols, then it doesn't matter what caliber you shoot. If a person practices often and maintains proficiency then it really shouldn't matter what caliber you use. I highly doubt somebody shot with a 9mm is going to be thinking "Damn, I sure am glad that wasn't a .45! " Pain is pain and I would imagine getting shot tends to hurt regardless of caliber. Especially with well placed shots.
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Posted: 6/10/2014 10:16:18 PM EDT
[#21]
Easy for me, 9mm...147 grain HST. More rounds & less recoil than 40 with equal results based on the testing.
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Posted: 6/10/2014 10:25:59 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You posted a coherent thought in GD. In a 9x19mm vs .40" S&W thread. Expect your punishment. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Hey you've been at this topic a long time. Lots of respect for that. I've handloaded plenty - not really interested in talking about myself on this one though, doesn't matter. The thought here is going to the root of what it takes to cause rapid violent changes - which is energy, which is a function of how much fuel (gunpowder) was in the round. Yes, I'm well aware that 6 gr of Blue Dot can be far less energy than 5 gr of Bullseye in say a 9mm. Not all powders are the same. In a quick book check, I cross checked against 231 data for this one,
To the data in the photo... taking a closer look... of those, the two smallest diameter wound channels appear to be cartridges loaded with the least amount of gunpowder (the 9mm). The largest, appears to be what I would expect to have the highest powder charges (.357 sig and the .45). Why is is this so controversial as to border on insulting someone suggesting it? You posted a coherent thought in GD. In a 9x19mm vs .40" S&W thread. Expect your punishment. No, because energy is NOT just related to gunpowder. |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 10:38:12 PM EDT
[#23]
Shot placement means more than expansion.
Get down to the known, and the difference between .355 and .40 in elastic tissues is academic as long as it's deep enough to hit the important shit. Plumbing and wiring. I'm one that was was in the .45acp camp through the wonder nine years, until the 3rd and fourth gen bullet designs hit. Now, It's pretty much pointless to fuss over the merits of any dia. chambering as long as it's between 9mmPara and .45acp. Run gold dots, DPX, or HST in all three chamberings in gellatin, side by side, and it's obvious. The permanent cavity is darn near identical, and depth varys very little between them. More than one LE agency has observed fewer rounds fired per incident with the 9mm vs the .40, and it has nothing to do with powder charge or dia. It's all about placemement, confidence in ability, training and proficiency, but that shit is boring compared to grumping over a .003 dia difference in expansion and shit. |
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Posted: 6/11/2014 12:10:02 AM EDT
[#24]
That's sheer bullshit. The 40 cal fires a larger diameter, heavier bullet. And, hot 40 ammunition is significantly more powerful than any 9mm made to be shot in a pistol.
The 40 cal was basically invented by the FBI, to replace their 9mm, which failed them miserably at the Miami shootout. |
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Posted: 6/11/2014 12:54:30 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's sheer bullshit. The 40 cal fires a larger diameter, heavier bullet. And, hot 40 ammunition is significantly more powerful than any 9mm made to be shot in a pistol. The 40 cal was basically invented by the FBI, to replace their 9mm, which failed them miserably at the Miami shootout. rifle>pistol |
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Posted: 6/11/2014 2:19:06 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/sites/buckeyefirearms.org/files/publicfiles/Ellifritz_Incapacitation.png The studies I have seen along with this one seem to indicate that there is no baseline scientific body of evidence that can solidly state that common handgun calibers offer dramatic incapacitation performance over another common handgun caliber. This is why I went from being a bigtime .45 ACP guy, to 9mm. I have .45's, .40's, and 9's, but I have absolutely zero plans to ever buy a .45 ACP or .40 S&W ever again. I do most of my training with 9mm nowadays. http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/sites/buckeyefirearms.org/files/publicfiles/Ellifritz_Failure_to_Incap.png A few observations about this data.... 1) Shotguns beat rifles in one shot incapacitation.....but were beat by number of fatal shots, marginally. 2) Handgun bullet design has likely improved 9mm's performance, but that improvement has likely not been seen if this data is including figures from 30 years ago when FMJ was more popular, or bullets were less likely to expand reliably. 3) There's little difference between the popular service calibers. Enough that having more rounds and less recoil (therefore faster shots) offsets the marginal difference between ability to incapacitate. 4) 9mm is easier to shoot, easier to put shots accurately. Cheaper to practice with. Cheaper to reload (projectiles are cheaper, less powder). Ammo is lighter per shot. Can carry fewer magazines for the same amount of rounds. 5) Rifles trump all pistols, all the time, when you know you have a fight. Even if on target performance is equal, rifles are easier to produce accurate hits with, faster. |
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Posted: 6/11/2014 2:25:18 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryLOL 13'ers |
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Posted: 6/11/2014 2:26:32 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So... cartridges with less gunpowder (of similar type) are more effective than cartridges that take more? (assuming an optimized bullet for that cartridge is used) Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This is perhaps a simplification - but consider this: the energy of a round comes from the amount of gunpowder you put in it. The effectiveness of the round comes from how much energy is in it (and to that point, how well it's invested). The gun powder charges for 9mm, .40 cal, and .45 ACP aren't really that different. Of the 3, 9mm does have the smallest - but not profoundly so, at about 90%. The rest comes down to how that energy is invested. In .45, it's invested in lower velocity heavy momentum. In 9mm it's invested into high velocity. Early 9mm was FMJ, which will just ice-pick right through the target, not really investing the energy into terminal ballistics. So 9mm initially sucked. They've gotten much better at that, and so for about the same initial energy investment, you get basically the same performance now amongst all 3. Or essentially that's how I see it today. The cartridge that takes a little more powder than the others, is going to be a little more effective. Which today, is .45 ACP and .40, which take similar charges, with 9mm being maybe 10% or so lower then those (obviously highly variable, depending). Compare to something like .380, which tends to take about half the powder charge of the other 3. That is some of the worst internal ballistics information I've ever seen posted. Sorry, but you are simply uneducated about this subject. So... cartridges with less gunpowder (of similar type) are more effective than cartridges that take more? (assuming an optimized bullet for that cartridge is used) My 9mm uses more powder then my .45 |
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Posted: 6/11/2014 2:37:42 AM EDT
[#29]
Technically the .40 is better.
Up up to the user to decide if the amount it is better is worth a few less rounds in the gun and some harsher recoil. It's no different than rifle ammo. It's up to the user to decide how much punch he wants and at what price. I will say though that I use a .40 and I use it mostly because I carry in the woods. A 180-200 grain slug has a bit more potential than a 115-150 grain slug up against some heavier stuff. Does that make it ideal, nope. Does it give me a bit better chance, yep. |
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Posted: 6/11/2014 2:46:04 AM EDT
[#30]
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45 ACP is better than both. 
There's no replacement for displacement |
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Posted: 6/11/2014 2:58:11 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's sheer bullshit. The 40 cal fires a larger diameter, heavier bullet. And, hot 40 ammunition is significantly more powerful than any 9mm made to be shot in a pistol. The 40 cal was basically invented by the FBI, to replace their 9mm, which failed them miserably at the Miami shootout. 
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Posted: 6/11/2014 3:03:26 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
rifle>pistol Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That's sheer bullshit. The 40 cal fires a larger diameter, heavier bullet. And, hot 40 ammunition is significantly more powerful than any 9mm made to be shot in a pistol. The 40 cal was basically invented by the FBI, to replace their 9mm, which failed them miserably at the Miami shootout. rifle>pistol yeah, so? 
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Posted: 6/11/2014 3:14:06 AM EDT
[#33]
I know it's been posted multiple times already, but I'll post it again.
Shot placement trumps caliber. |
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Posted: 6/11/2014 3:27:26 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Show me your Bill Drill with .45 ACP or .40 S&W versus your Bill Drill with 9mm and get back to me. Now try it without ear pro like for real in a CCW or LEO setting. I do have real world experience with them all, to include being shot with 9mm. 9mm has very impressive penetration, even "just" a 115gr FMJ. I don't want to be shot with any of them but I would think 230gr and .74 in would be worse than 115gr and .63 in |
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Posted: 6/11/2014 3:32:33 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes but still only .001's of a difference in overal all expansion But 9mms in the same frame hold 50% more rounds. I'll leave the math to you. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Wouldn't .40acp have the same advancement in expanding bullet technology? Yes but still only .001's of a difference in overal all expansion But 9mms in the same frame hold 50% more rounds. I'll leave the math to you. M&P40 = 15 rounds M&P9 = 17 rounds Same frame. 50% more? Math is hard. |
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Posted: 6/11/2014 3:33:54 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
IMHO .40 was the solution to a non-existent problem. My other issue ( if it could be called that ) is that .40 has never been adopted by any military units therefore surplus/bulk ammo will never be available for it for training etc. It's more expensive to train with than 9mm. Quality defensive 9mm does just as much tissue damage as .40. A 9mm holds 50% more rounds than a .40 on the same frame size The list goes on and on and on... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Never understood the hate for the .40 . It always seemed to be a potent and effective caliber to me (yes, I have used it on live targets). Is it because some pistols don't have a good track record with it? If so, which is at fault, the caliber or the gun? I know it has a sharper pressure curve than some other rounds but I always saw that as an advantage because it doesn't lose much performance in pistols with really short barrels. IMHO .40 was the solution to a non-existent problem. My other issue ( if it could be called that ) is that .40 has never been adopted by any military units therefore surplus/bulk ammo will never be available for it for training etc. It's more expensive to train with than 9mm. Quality defensive 9mm does just as much tissue damage as .40. A 9mm holds 50% more rounds than a .40 on the same frame size The list goes on and on and on... Math is hard. |
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Posted: 6/11/2014 3:35:47 AM EDT
[#37]
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Yep And given that I'd rather have 50% more capacity and the advantage of cheaper training. Again, .40 was nothing more than marketing hype that promised to solve a non-existent problem. Apparently some some folks here still buy the hype. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't have access to the study right now, but I remember seeing an analysis of self defense shootings grouped by caliber. The conclusion was that all pistol rounds suck at stopping people, and there was no significant difference in effectiveness between all common handgun calibers. Yep And given that I'd rather have 50% more capacity and the advantage of cheaper training. Again, .40 was nothing more than marketing hype that promised to solve a non-existent problem. Apparently some some folks here still buy the hype. Math is hard. |
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Posted: 6/11/2014 3:38:16 AM EDT
[#38]
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But you are still left with lower capacity and more expensive training. The difference in tissue damage between the two are nominal at best. The difference in mag capacity cannot be ignored. The 9mm has massive advantage. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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As it pertains to terminal ballistics, 40>9. Bringing the launcher (pistol) into the equation, 9 is easier to control. This. Any advancement in 9mm HP applies to 40 as well. The performance may be close but not equal; however you might get an equivalent outcome. But you are still left with lower capacity and more expensive training. The difference in tissue damage between the two are nominal at best. The difference in mag capacity cannot be ignored. The 9mm has massive advantage. Math is hard. |
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Posted: 6/11/2014 3:42:11 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Damn, it wasn't that long ago that it was all ball ammo. 158 gr lead ball out of a 38 snub was known as a widow maker load and 45 ball was the shit. Now everything is engineered, and not just expansion and penetration, but even taking into account barrel length. Good point. It's not good to over-think these issues. |
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Posted: 6/11/2014 3:44:11 AM EDT
[#40]
It's almost like some on here refuse to understand
 I know I've said it before, but you have more patience than I would OldPainless. |
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Posted: 6/11/2014 3:46:30 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
I hear this all the time. Which loads specifically are "just as good or better?" Any of the loads that pass FBI testing are likely to give you a good result on target if you put it into something that matters. Especially if you're accurate enough to put multiple bullets there. No handgun load is going to do you much good if you can't put it where it counts. The caliber wars are over, and the winner is: Training. Solid training on spotting a fight that's coming and ingraining in troops the ability to do something useful about it is the best approach to officer safety. That costs money. You get more bang for the buck with a 9mm...and you get guns that tend to work better and that officers can shoot better, to boot. In my area agencies are transitioning to the 9, using Gold Dot and HST ammo. Time spent at Quantico with the FBI's terminal ballistics gurus (who collect information on law enforcement shootings across the country...and who are also informed and have worked on studies from the DOD) and experience with problematic .40 caliber Glocks has finally had enough of an impact to get some shit moving. People arguing about .10" of bullet diameter are out of their fucking mind. It's largely irrelevant. Bigger bullets matter most when intermediate barriers or busting bone are involved...but even at that with data from every police department across the nation using all of the major service calibers there's absolutely no evidence in the data to show that X caliber delivers better results than Y caliber. |
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Posted: 6/11/2014 3:54:01 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So according to that chart, .44 magnum and .380 have roughly the same average rounds to incapacitation? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Here's the study I referenced earlier. http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/publicfiles/Ellifritz_Rnds_to_Incap.png So according to that chart, .44 magnum and .380 have roughly the same average rounds to incapacitation? And .25, .380, .22 & .32 incapacitate more quickly than .45? You don't say? If you read the article he has a pretty good analysis of it. One of the points he brings up is the concept of the psychological stop - the "oh shit, I've been shot!" reaction that causes most people to stop fighting. |
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Posted: 6/11/2014 3:56:40 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Federal HST 147gr This!!! |
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Posted: 6/11/2014 4:24:21 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/sites/buckeyefirearms.org/files/publicfiles/Ellifritz_Incapacitation.png The studies I have seen along with this one seem to indicate that there is no baseline scientific body of evidence that can solidly state that common handgun calibers offer dramatic incapacitation performance over another common handgun caliber. This is why I went from being a bigtime .45 ACP guy, to 9mm. I have .45's, .40's, and 9's, but I have absolutely zero plans to ever buy a .45 ACP or .40 S&W ever again. I do most of my training with 9mm nowadays. http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/sites/buckeyefirearms.org/files/publicfiles/Ellifritz_Failure_to_Incap.png I am exactly where you are on this. Not that there is anything wrong with those calibers but I just went back to carrying and training with 9mm only. I do want to bring up a point in the study we are discussing that he did indicate 9mm results may have been underrated because the type ammo was not considered. |
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Posted: 6/11/2014 4:29:55 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is why the rsqhobbs family went with 9mm. 1. Between the most common defensive pistol cartridges, (using quality hollow points) there is not a big difference in penetration and permanent wound channels. 2. Equivalent pistols carry a larger payload, if chambered in 9mm. If we are going into combat, (and a defensive shooting IS combat) I would like to have the highest magazine capacity possible. We practice magazine changes, and do pretty well as far as time goes, but magazine changes DO take time. 3. We can purchase more 9mm ammunition for our training dollar. More ammunition fired during quality training will hopefully equate to MORE HITS ON TARGET. Only hits count. ETA: I apologize. I completely ignored your question. IMHO, just about any BONDED load in the 124 / 147 range, that has been vetted with competent gel testing. My household has transitioned to 9mm Glocks for the same reasons. |
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Posted: 6/11/2014 4:40:51 AM EDT
[#46]
If 9mm has evolved just as the .45 why hasn't the .40 done so?
I love hearing .40 haters.... We all hate .40 S&W because it is "short and weak" and has too much recoil because it is too powerful. .40 S&W will penetrate ballistic gelatin similarly to 9mm while offering substantially more expansion, more momentum for crushing bone due to its heavier bullet, and better penetration, with less deflection, through automobile glass and car bodies than 9mm but it offers absolutely no advantages over 9mm at all. Modern bullet design has improved the terminal performance of 9mm and .45 ACP but not that of .40 S&W which has not benefited at all. The law of momentum does not apply when comparing 180 grain .40 bullets to much lighter 9mm bullets. .40 offers insufficient capacity because 9 rounds of .45 is plenty but 16 rounds of .40 in the gun is not enough. Some .40 is always left on the shelves during a panic when .9mm and .45ACP are unavailable because nobody wants that .40 crap which is why it's so hard to find. .40 S&W operates at excessive chamber pressures since it operates at the same pressure as 9mm and less than 9mm +P. People will laugh at you if you shoot .40 because it was designed as a replacement for 10 mm which some couldn't master because of its recoil; then the same people who laugh at the "wimpy" "short and weak" will say they don't shoot it since there is too much "snap" for them too handle. |
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Posted: 6/11/2014 4:43:26 AM EDT
[#47]
Handgun's are relatively shitty weapons, so I want my handgun to hold as many rounds as possible......9mm>.40 or .45 simply because I want to shoot more before I throw my gun at someone
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Posted: 6/11/2014 4:45:48 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My real world experience pretty much agrees. I carry 147gr HSTs in my carry pistol. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
From my internet readings, I have concluded that all handguns are crappy compared to a good rifle, so I am ok with anything above a 9MM with good ammo. I have zero real world experience. I like the speer gold dots myself. My real world experience pretty much agrees. I carry 147gr HSTs in my carry pistol. 124 GDHP or 180 gr GDHP |
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Posted: 6/11/2014 4:46:40 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm no expert, but if it penetrates more or less the same and expands more or less the same... http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/Handgun_expanded_JHP.jpg http://www.firearmstalk.com/images/3/9/0/8/3/handgungel-comparison-176.jpg You sir are injecting fact and reason in GD...GTFO |
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Posted: 6/11/2014 4:54:32 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's sheer bullshit. The 40 cal fires a larger diameter, heavier bullet. And, hot 40 ammunition is significantly more powerful than any 9mm made to be shot in a pistol. The 40 cal was basically invented by the FBI, to replace their 9mm, which failed them miserably at the Miami shootout. No. .40 was invented because people in the FBI couldn't handle 10mm. |
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