"the 5.56 is not a preferred bullet to shoot someone with"- Chris Kyle SEAL Sniper - Page 3

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - "the 5.56 is not a preferred bullet to shoot someone with"- Chris Kyle SEAL Sniper (Page 3 of 3)

Posted: 3/15/2012 9:43:57 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The preferred round against bad guys would be a 12 gauge slug travelling at 3200 ft/sec from a platform capable of sub MOA accuracy out to 2000 yards.

20mm Vulcan?

I will be in my bunk.

http://www.anzioironworks.com/MAG-FED-20MM-RIFLE.htm

Posted: 3/15/2012 9:44:03 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Everything is a compromise. It may not be the preferred bullet for terminal performance, but it's vastly preferred by those who have to carry large quantities of it.

Yup. My preferred bullet to kill a man is a 155mm HE

But I damn sure wouldn't want to carry it around on patrol. 5.56 kills well enough and is easy to carry.

Different tools for different jobs; you don't use a hammer to unscrew an oil drain plug.

I take it you have never had to change oil after some Jiffy Lube monkey with an air ratchet tightened said drain plug...............

Posted: 3/15/2012 9:54:00 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The preferred round against bad guys would be a 12 gauge slug travelling at 3200 ft/sec from a platform capable of sub MOA accuracy out to 2000 yards.

20mm Vulcan?

I will be in my bunk.

http://www.anzioironworks.com/MAG-FED-20MM-RIFLE.htm

That is fucking awesome!

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 3/15/2012 9:56:56 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

One time I was sitting at a meal with an active duty sniper and he told a story of a conversation he had with a visiting senior officer. The conversation went like this:
Officer: "Could you guarantee a kill at 2,000 yards?"

Sniper: "Yes."

Officer: "You sure?"

Sniper: "Yes"

Officer: "What weapon would you use to do it?"

Sniper: "A radio."

That's funny and true.
Our Scout Snipers almost always went to the radio for a kill with IDF or CAS instead of the rifle.

Ordnance causes alot more casualties and hurts the enemey's moral alot more than an individual sniper rifle.

Posted: 3/15/2012 10:02:16 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
this isn't new. In Vietnam soldiers hated the 5.56 because it was so light and fast the vegetation ruined the flight paths and was less than ideal and a "wounding weapon". The M14 shot though the vegetation the limb, the bad guy, and the guy behind him.

[citation needed]

All I've ever read was reports and stories from Vietnam praising the terminal ballistics of the M16 with the original ammo and barrel twist.

Lots of people bitching about the reliability, but not the terminal ballistics. The "wounding weapon" part has always been BS.

From reading about Vietnam I didn't come to the conclusion that "5.56mm sucks". I came to the conclusion that "SS109 sucks".

Posted: 3/15/2012 10:06:35 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:

this isn't new. In Vietnam soldiers hated the 5.56 because it was so light and fast the vegetation ruined the flight paths and was less than ideal and a "wounding weapon". The M14 shot though the vegetation the limb, the bad guy, and the guy behind him.

[citation needed]

All I've ever read was reports and stories from Vietnam praising the terminal ballistics of the M16 with the original ammo and barrel twist.

Lots of people bitching about the reliability, but not the terminal ballistics. The "wounding weapon" part has always been BS.

From reading about Vietnam I didn't come to the conclusion that "5.56mm sucks". I came to the conclusion that "SS109 sucks".

I bet ya from all the previous threads about 5.56 NOBODY would guess that I am NOT a fan of M855 (SS109) at all. I hate that round.

That being said, it is responsible for killing ALOT of bad guys.

5.56 can be just as lethal or close enough to 7.62 with a proper bullet.

Posted: 3/15/2012 10:06:58 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Everything is a compromise. It may not be the preferred bullet for terminal performance, but it's vastly preferred by those who have to carry large quantities of it.

This.

If I could carry a 30-round magazine of 30mm DU and it weighed the same as the equivalent in 5.56, I'd do it, but it doesn't...

Posted: 3/15/2012 10:48:27 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
One time I was sitting at a meal with an active duty sniper and he told a story of a conversation he had with a visiting senior officer. The conversation went like this:

Officer: "Could you guarantee a kill at 2,000 yards?"
Sniper: "Yes."
Officer: "You sure?"
Sniper: "Yes"
Officer: "What weapon would you use to do it?"
Sniper: "A radio."

That's funny and true.

Our Scout Snipers almost always went to the radio for a kill with IDF or CAS instead of the rifle.

Ordnance causes alot more casualties and hurts the enemey's moral alot more than an individual sniper rifle.

I always saw snipers as FOs with special marksmanship skills..

:D

Posted: 3/15/2012 10:49:08 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
this isn't new. In Vietnam soldiers hated the 5.56 because it was so light and fast the vegetation ruined the flight paths and was less than ideal and a "wounding weapon". The M14 shot though the vegetation the limb, the bad guy, and the guy behind him.

[citation needed]

All I've ever read was reports and stories from Vietnam praising the terminal ballistics of the M16 with the original ammo and barrel twist.

Lots of people bitching about the reliability, but not the terminal ballistics. The "wounding weapon" part has always been BS.

From reading about Vietnam I didn't come to the conclusion that "5.56mm sucks". I came to the conclusion that "SS109 sucks".

You want me to cite all the stuff I read about soldiers hating on the 5.56? Hell man I don't know where all those pages are....I haven't been a gun owner for years and years, but i've been interested in them for a very long time I have not kept tabs on everything I've read. That said the amount of hate soldiers give the peashooter rounds are out there like crazy. This one I found as soon as i read your post and went to bing search. It's pretty long and gives a lot of first hand accounts (some talking about successful 5.56 kills) in the end its about how they need a real round and this is the end of the article.

"The lethality of the 5.56mm cartridge, sold on lies, cannot be fixed in truth. It is time the Department of Defense recognizes this 'Big Lie' from the Vietnam War and in the names of MSgt Kevin N. Morehead and SFC William M. Bennett replaces this varmint cartridge with one that gives our warriors that critical capability described by SFC Paul Howe above——one—round knockdown power! "

^^^ This is also damn near the quote I mentioned in my post by Ronnie Barret in his Rec7 video.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2004/08/the_last_big_lie_of_vietnam_ki.html

I'm just going on what I've read and how I feel. I feel the round CAN get the job done and I also think its a great plinking and target shooting round. If I'm going to battle you can be damn sure I'm taking a M1A, Scar H or something along those lines. It might be heavier but still manageable and just like anything else your body will adapt to the added weight and will become in shape to carry it. We had soldiers running around carrying M60s 240s and all that type of weaponry also....like the bosses they are!

I'm not a veteran, but I can see the logic of their claims from a little bullet and will take their word for it. If I can guaranteed drop someone in one shot (maybe even a guy or 2 behind them as well

)and even penetrate cover worlds better than a .22 at the cost of a few lbs then I would do it. You may not agree and thats fine, everybody is different. There are tons of articles of people bashing your pea shooter rounds though.

Posted: 3/15/2012 10:50:17 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
One time I was sitting at a meal with an active duty sniper and he told a story of a conversation he had with a visiting senior officer. The conversation went like this:

Officer: "Could you guarantee a kill at 2,000 yards?"
Sniper: "Yes."
Officer: "You sure?"
Sniper: "Yes"
Officer: "What weapon would you use to do it?"
Sniper: "A radio."

That's funny and true.

Our Scout Snipers almost always went to the radio for a kill with IDF or CAS instead of the rifle.

Ordnance causes alot more casualties and hurts the enemey's moral alot more than an individual sniper rifle.

I always saw snipers as FOs with special marksmanship skills..

:D

LRSU with benefits

ETA: actually, I wonder how much overlap there is between the mission of snipers and LRS folk....

Posted: 3/15/2012 10:53:09 AM EDT

[#11]

Having read his book.

He did not like the 5.56 for engagements beyond 300m. He preferred the .300 win mag.

He was a SEAL sniper, during fallujah when he helped the marines with house clearly he used a M16 and M4 and had no troubles killing people with them.

Posted: 3/15/2012 11:04:59 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
this isn't new. In Vietnam soldiers hated the 5.56 because it was so light and fast the vegetation ruined the flight paths and was less than ideal and a "wounding weapon". The M14 shot though the vegetation the limb, the bad guy, and the guy behind him.

[citation needed]

All I've ever read was reports and stories from Vietnam praising the terminal ballistics of the M16 with the original ammo and barrel twist.

Lots of people bitching about the reliability, but not the terminal ballistics. The "wounding weapon" part has always been BS.

From reading about Vietnam I didn't come to the conclusion that "5.56mm sucks". I came to the conclusion that "SS109 sucks".

You want me to cite all the stuff I read about soldiers hating on the 5.56? Hell man I don't know where all those pages are....I haven't been a gun owner for years and years, but i've been interested in them for a very long time I have not kept tabs on everything I've read. That said the amount of hate soldiers give the peashooter rounds are out there like crazy. This one I found as soon as i read your post and went to bing search. It's pretty long and gives a lot of first hand accounts (some talking about successful 5.56 kills) in the end its about how they need a real round and this is the end of the article.

"The lethality of the 5.56mm cartridge, sold on lies, cannot be fixed in truth. It is time the Department of Defense recognizes this 'Big Lie' from the Vietnam War and in the names of MSgt Kevin N. Morehead and SFC William M. Bennett replaces this varmint cartridge with one that gives our warriors that critical capability described by SFC Paul Howe above——one—round knockdown power! "

^^^ This is also damn near the quote I mentioned in my post by Ronnie Barret in his Rec7 video.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2004/08/the_last_big_lie_of_vietnam_ki.html

I'm just going on what I've read and how I feel. I feel the round CAN get the job done and I also think its a great plinking and target shooting round. If I'm going to battle you can be damn sure I'm taking a M1A, Scar H or something along those lines. It might be heavier but still manageable and just like anything else your body will adapt to the added weight and will become in shape to carry it. We had soldiers running around carrying M60s 240s and all that type of weaponry also....like the bosses they are!

I'm not a veteran, but I can see the logic of their claims from a little bullet and will take their word for it. If I can guaranteed drop someone in one shot (maybe even a guy or 2 behind them as well

)and even penetrate cover worlds better than a .22 at the cost of a few lbs then I would do it. You may not agree and thats fine, everybody is different. There are tons of articles of people bashing your pea shooter rounds though.

Hey, one article and one that's on the first page of Google.

Also, 7.62mm isn't the wonder round you seem to think it is. Brush will deflect a 7.62mm and it certainly isn't guaranteed to drop someone in one shot. Hell, there is no round capable of being fired by a rifleman from the shoulder that will give you one shit kills every time. And Howe was also using SS109. It was mentioned in BHD. IIRC, one of the 60 gunners bitched about ammo effectiveness too.

It might be heavier but still manageable and just like anything else your body will adapt to the added weight and will become in shape to carry it.

This is also nonsense. You do not adapt to more weight. You get weight related injuries and decreased effectiveness. You do not run around like a boss with a 240 forever like it's nothing because you'd adapted to it.

Posted: 3/15/2012 11:08:04 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
In his book he described using a variety of weapons for his sniping duties but favored the .300 WinMag.

My preferred round.

Posted: 3/15/2012 11:11:21 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/Army-fgm148.jpg/300px-Army-fgm148.jpg

FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted: 3/15/2012 11:12:04 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
this isn't new. In Vietnam soldiers hated the 5.56 because it was so light and fast the vegetation ruined the flight paths and was less than ideal and a "wounding weapon". The M14 shot though the vegetation the limb, the bad guy, and the guy behind him.

[citation needed]

All I've ever read was reports and stories from Vietnam praising the terminal ballistics of the M16 with the original ammo and barrel twist.

Lots of people bitching about the reliability, but not the terminal ballistics. The "wounding weapon" part has always been BS.

From reading about Vietnam I didn't come to the conclusion that "5.56mm sucks". I came to the conclusion that "SS109 sucks".

You want me to cite all the stuff I read about soldiers hating on the 5.56? Hell man I don't know where all those pages are....I haven't been a gun owner for years and years, but i've been interested in them for a very long time I have not kept tabs on everything I've read. That said the amount of hate soldiers give the peashooter rounds are out there like crazy. This one I found as soon as i read your post and went to bing search. It's pretty long and gives a lot of first hand accounts (some talking about successful 5.56 kills) in the end its about how they need a real round and this is the end of the article.

"The lethality of the 5.56mm cartridge, sold on lies, cannot be fixed in truth. It is time the Department of Defense recognizes this 'Big Lie' from the Vietnam War and in the names of MSgt Kevin N. Morehead and SFC William M. Bennett replaces this varmint cartridge with one that gives our warriors that critical capability described by SFC Paul Howe above——one—round knockdown power! "

^^^ This is also damn near the quote I mentioned in my post by Ronnie Barret in his Rec7 video.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2004/08/the_last_big_lie_of_vietnam_ki.html

I'm just going on what I've read and how I feel. I feel the round CAN get the job done and I also think its a great plinking and target shooting round. If I'm going to battle you can be damn sure I'm taking a M1A, Scar H or something along those lines. It might be heavier but still manageable and just like anything else your body will adapt to the added weight and will become in shape to carry it. We had soldiers running around carrying M60s 240s and all that type of weaponry also....like the bosses they are!

I'm not a veteran, but I can see the logic of their claims from a little bullet and will take their word for it. If I can guaranteed drop someone in one shot (maybe even a guy or 2 behind them as well

)and even penetrate cover worlds better than a .22 at the cost of a few lbs then I would do it. You may not agree and thats fine, everybody is different. There are tons of articles of people bashing your pea shooter rounds though.

Hey, one article and one that's on the first page of Google.

Also, 7.62mm isn't the wonder round you seem to think it is. Brush will deflect a 7.62mm and it certainly isn't guaranteed to drop someone in one shot. Hell, there is no round capable of being fired by a rifleman from the shoulder that will give you one shit kills every time. And Howe was also using SS109. It was mentioned in BHD. IIRC, one of the 60 gunners bitched about ammo effectiveness too.

Will you admit it would generally do the job better than a 5.56 or is that too much? Can the 5.56 do those things better?

It might be heavier but still manageable and just like anything else your body will adapt to the added weight and will become in shape to carry it.

This is also nonsense. You do not adapt to more weight. You get weight related injuries and decreased effectiveness. You do not run around like a boss with a 240 forever like it's nothing because you'd adapted to it.

I really don't understand this....A person runs everyday over time they can run farther and faster. A person lifts weights over time they can lift more and for longer. A person carries cinder blocks at their job day after day over time cider blocks are easier to carry and manage because they get stronger. If you carry a rifle and magazines on you day after day it will get easier. Or is that not how things work? The "boss" comment was just having a little fun with MG guys.

blue

Posted: 3/15/2012 11:14:11 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Everything is a compromise. It may not be the preferred bullet for terminal performance, but it's vastly preferred by those who have to carry large quantities of it.

Yup. My preferred bullet to kill a man is a 155mm HE

But I damn sure wouldn't want to carry it around on patrol. 5.56 kills well enough and is easy to carry.

Different tools for different jobs; you don't use a hammer to unscrew an oil drain plug.

Well, shit. It seems I've been doing it wrong.

Posted: 3/15/2012 11:16:26 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
this isn't new. In Vietnam soldiers hated the 5.56 because it was so light and fast the vegetation ruined the flight paths and was less than ideal and a "wounding weapon". The M14 shot though the vegetation the limb, the bad guy, and the guy behind him.

[citation needed]

All I've ever read was reports and stories from Vietnam praising the terminal ballistics of the M16 with the original ammo and barrel twist.

Lots of people bitching about the reliability, but not the terminal ballistics. The "wounding weapon" part has always been BS.

From reading about Vietnam I didn't come to the conclusion that "5.56mm sucks". I came to the conclusion that "SS109 sucks".

You want me to cite all the stuff I read about soldiers hating on the 5.56? Hell man I don't know where all those pages are....I haven't been a gun owner for years and years, but i've been interested in them for a very long time I have not kept tabs on everything I've read. That said the amount of hate soldiers give the peashooter rounds are out there like crazy. This one I found as soon as i read your post and went to bing search. It's pretty long and gives a lot of first hand accounts (some talking about successful 5.56 kills) in the end its about how they need a real round and this is the end of the article.

"The lethality of the 5.56mm cartridge, sold on lies, cannot be fixed in truth. It is time the Department of Defense recognizes this 'Big Lie' from the Vietnam War and in the names of MSgt Kevin N. Morehead and SFC William M. Bennett replaces this varmint cartridge with one that gives our warriors that critical capability described by SFC Paul Howe above——one—round knockdown power! "

^^^ This is also damn near the quote I mentioned in my post by Ronnie Barret in his Rec7 video.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2004/08/the_last_big_lie_of_vietnam_ki.html

I'm just going on what I've read and how I feel. I feel the round CAN get the job done and I also think its a great plinking and target shooting round. If I'm going to battle you can be damn sure I'm taking a M1A, Scar H or something along those lines. It might be heavier but still manageable and just like anything else your body will adapt to the added weight and will become in shape to carry it. We had soldiers running around carrying M60s 240s and all that type of weaponry also....like the bosses they are!

I'm not a veteran, but I can see the logic of their claims from a little bullet and will take their word for it. If I can guaranteed drop someone in one shot (maybe even a guy or 2 behind them as well

)and even penetrate cover worlds better than a .22 at the cost of a few lbs then I would do it. You may not agree and thats fine, everybody is different. There are tons of articles of people bashing your pea shooter rounds though.

Hey, one article and one that's on the first page of Google.

Also, 7.62mm isn't the wonder round you seem to think it is. Brush will deflect a 7.62mm and it certainly isn't guaranteed to drop someone in one shot. Hell, there is no round capable of being fired by a rifleman from the shoulder that will give you one shit kills every time. And Howe was also using SS109. It was mentioned in BHD. IIRC, one of the 60 gunners bitched about ammo effectiveness too.

Will you admit it would generally do the job better than a 5.56 or is that too much? Can the 5.56 do those things better?

It might be heavier but still manageable and just like anything else your body will adapt to the added weight and will become in shape to carry it.

This is also nonsense. You do not adapt to more weight. You get weight related injuries and decreased effectiveness. You do not run around like a boss with a 240 forever like it's nothing because you'd adapted to it.

I really don't understand this....A person runs everyday over time they can run farther and faster. A person lifts weights over time they can lift more and for longer. A person carries cinder blocks at their job day after day over time cider blocks are easier to carry and manage because they get stronger. If you carry a rifle and magazines on you day after day it will get easier. Or is that not how things work? The "boss" comment was just having a little fun with MG guys.

blue

Just because a person builds muscles to adapt to carrying more weight does not mean that their joints and tendons get stronger. Weight related injuries are almost always joint or ligament injuries. or lower back injuries.

Also Shot placement has alot more to do with round effectiveness than the round its self. 5.56 center mass will put someone down faster than a gut shot with 7.62.

Posted: 3/15/2012 11:17:14 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
One time I was sitting at a meal with an active duty sniper and he told a story of a conversation he had with a visiting senior officer. The conversation went like this:

Officer: "Could you guarantee a kill at 2,000 yards?"
Sniper: "Yes."
Officer: "You sure?"
Sniper: "Yes"
Officer: "What weapon would you use to do it?"
Sniper: "A radio."

fuck yeah... a radio (and a fucker who's nasty enough to live in a hole in the ground for a few days if necessary) is far more dangerous than a rifle under many circumstances (or so I'm told)...

A radio and compass can have a devastating effect on the enemy.

CAS and fire support when used correctly are impressive tools of war.

"King of the Battle" ARTY!!!!!! FTW!!!!

Posted: 3/15/2012 11:17:53 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
He was a sniper and I think that makes a difference.

yep, if you are shooting someone at 800+ yards 556 is definitely not the best round for the job.

No kidding.

As an aside, I recently read a story about a Danish tank crew that took out a guy shooting RPGs at them in Afghanistan with the main gun.

So they'd probably read this thread and say that 120mm is a superior "round" if you really want to be sure to take out the guy.

AWESOME!!!!

Posted: 3/15/2012 11:43:47 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
this isn't new. In Vietnam soldiers hated the 5.56 because it was so light and fast the vegetation ruined the flight paths and was less than ideal and a "wounding weapon". The M14 shot though the vegetation the limb, the bad guy, and the guy behind him.

[citation needed]

All I've ever read was reports and stories from Vietnam praising the terminal ballistics of the M16 with the original ammo and barrel twist.

Lots of people bitching about the reliability, but not the terminal ballistics. The "wounding weapon" part has always been BS.

From reading about Vietnam I didn't come to the conclusion that "5.56mm sucks". I came to the conclusion that "SS109 sucks".

You want me to cite all the stuff I read about soldiers hating on the 5.56? Hell man I don't know where all those pages are....I haven't been a gun owner for years and years, but i've been interested in them for a very long time I have not kept tabs on everything I've read. That said the amount of hate soldiers give the peashooter rounds are out there like crazy. This one I found as soon as i read your post and went to bing search. It's pretty long and gives a lot of first hand accounts (some talking about successful 5.56 kills) in the end its about how they need a real round and this is the end of the article.

"The lethality of the 5.56mm cartridge, sold on lies, cannot be fixed in truth. It is time the Department of Defense recognizes this 'Big Lie' from the Vietnam War and in the names of MSgt Kevin N. Morehead and SFC William M. Bennett replaces this varmint cartridge with one that gives our warriors that critical capability described by SFC Paul Howe above——one—round knockdown power! "

^^^ This is also damn near the quote I mentioned in my post by Ronnie Barret in his Rec7 video.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2004/08/the_last_big_lie_of_vietnam_ki.html

I'm just going on what I've read and how I feel. I feel the round CAN get the job done and I also think its a great plinking and target shooting round. If I'm going to battle you can be damn sure I'm taking a M1A, Scar H or something along those lines. It might be heavier but still manageable and just like anything else your body will adapt to the added weight and will become in shape to carry it. We had soldiers running around carrying M60s 240s and all that type of weaponry also....like the bosses they are!

I'm not a veteran, but I can see the logic of their claims from a little bullet and will take their word for it. If I can guaranteed drop someone in one shot (maybe even a guy or 2 behind them as well

)and even penetrate cover worlds better than a .22 at the cost of a few lbs then I would do it. You may not agree and thats fine, everybody is different. There are tons of articles of people bashing your pea shooter rounds though.

Less posting, more reading, please.

Posted: 3/15/2012 11:48:43 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:
He was a sniper and I think that makes a difference.

yep, if you are shooting someone at 800+ yards 556 is definitely not the best round for the job.

No kidding.

As an aside, I recently read a story about a Danish tank crew that took out a guy shooting RPGs at them in Afghanistan with the main gun.

So they'd probably read this thread and say that 120mm is a superior "round" if you really want to be sure to take out the guy.

AWESOME!!!!

And maybe the surrounding 25 square feet along with the "guy"....

Posted: 3/15/2012 11:54:09 AM EDT

[#22]

338 bolt gun or a 308 gas gun.

Posted: 3/15/2012 12:01:26 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
So I kind of understand it may not be prefferred, but from the accounts I read about here & history of the round in combat tells me it works just fine.

Just thought it was interesting. This came from his article in SOF mag 4/2012, if anyone interested.

Well there is a lot of truth to what he say's in the context you've given us. There are a lot of calibers that are better at incapacitating a target than 5.56. That being said, 5.56 WORKS just fine. It still kills people, maybe not as effectively as say a .50 BMG or even a .308. But it'll still kill 'em dead.

Posted: 3/15/2012 2:15:45 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:

One time I was sitting at a meal with an active duty sniper and he told a story of a conversation he had with a visiting senior officer. The conversation went like this:

Officer: "Could you guarantee a kill at 2,000 yards?"

Sniper: "Yes."

Officer: "You sure?"

Sniper: "Yes"

Officer: "What weapon would you use to do it?"

Sniper: "A radio."

That's funny and true.

Our Scout Snipers almost always went to the radio for a kill with IDF or CAS instead of the rifle.

Ordnance causes alot more casualties and hurts the enemey's moral alot more than an individual sniper rifle.

I always saw snipers as FOs with special marksmanship skills..

:D

Usually not far from the truth.

Posted: 3/15/2012 2:24:57 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
One time I was sitting at a meal with an active duty sniper and he told a story of a conversation he had with a visiting senior officer. The conversation went like this:

Officer: "Could you guarantee a kill at 2,000 yards?"
Sniper: "Yes."
Officer: "You sure?"
Sniper: "Yes"
Officer: "What weapon would you use to do it?"
Sniper: "A radio."

fuck yeah... a radio (and a fucker who's nasty enough to live in a hole in the ground for a few days if necessary) is far more dangerous than a rifle under many circumstances (or so I'm told)...

A radio and compass can have a devastating effect on the enemy.

CAS and fire support when used correctly are impressive tools of war.

"King of the Battle" ARTY!!!!!! FTW!!!!

Notice I said "When used correctly" the red legs have to get out of bed before noon for that to happen.

Posted: 3/15/2012 2:27:08 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
.700 T-Rex.

http://www.geekologie.com/2011/12/06/homemade-trex-rifle.jpg

The only way

Posted: 3/15/2012 2:32:13 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:
this isn't new. In Vietnam soldiers hated the 5.56 because it was so light and fast the vegetation ruined the flight paths and was less than ideal and a "wounding weapon". The M14 shot though the vegetation the limb, the bad guy, and the guy behind him.

[citation needed]

All I've ever read was reports and stories from Vietnam praising the terminal ballistics of the M16 with the original ammo and barrel twist.

Lots of people bitching about the reliability, but not the terminal ballistics. The "wounding weapon" part has always been BS.

From reading about Vietnam I didn't come to the conclusion that "5.56mm sucks". I came to the conclusion that "SS109 sucks".

You want me to cite all the stuff I read about soldiers hating on the 5.56? Hell man I don't know where all those pages are....I haven't been a gun owner for years and years, but i've been interested in them for a very long time I have not kept tabs on everything I've read. That said the amount of hate soldiers give the peashooter rounds are out there like crazy. This one I found as soon as i read your post and went to bing search. It's pretty long and gives a lot of first hand accounts (some talking about successful 5.56 kills) in the end its about how they need a real round and this is the end of the article.

"The lethality of the 5.56mm cartridge, sold on lies, cannot be fixed in truth. It is time the Department of Defense recognizes this 'Big Lie' from the Vietnam War and in the names of MSgt Kevin N. Morehead and SFC William M. Bennett replaces this varmint cartridge with one that gives our warriors that critical capability described by SFC Paul Howe above——one—round knockdown power! "

^^^ This is also damn near the quote I mentioned in my post by Ronnie Barret in his Rec7 video.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2004/08/the_last_big_lie_of_vietnam_ki.html

I'm just going on what I've read and how I feel. I feel the round CAN get the job done and I also think its a great plinking and target shooting round. If I'm going to battle you can be damn sure I'm taking a M1A, Scar H or something along those lines. It might be heavier but still manageable and just like anything else your body will adapt to the added weight and will become in shape to carry it. We had soldiers running around carrying M60s 240s and all that type of weaponry also....like the bosses they are!

I'm not a veteran, but I can see the logic of their claims from a little bullet and will take their word for it. If I can guaranteed drop someone in one shot (maybe even a guy or 2 behind them as well

)and even penetrate cover worlds better than a .22 at the cost of a few lbs then I would do it. You may not agree and thats fine, everybody is different. There are tons of articles of people bashing your pea shooter rounds though.

How old are you?

Posted: 3/15/2012 2:35:51 PM EDT

[#28]

I read his book. He comes across as a tremendous asshole. Not a role model for anyone to follow. Great opportunities to kill and thanks for your service and all that but he's a jackass.

Posted: 3/15/2012 2:41:33 PM EDT

[#29]

My preferred round was a TLAM-C with GPS guidance.

I think this guy's statement is being taken out of context. I doubt he's advocating .300WinMag as a general issue caliber.

Posted: 3/15/2012 2:42:34 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:

this isn't new. In Vietnam soldiers hated the 5.56 because it was so light and fast the vegetation ruined the flight paths and was less than ideal and a "wounding weapon". The M14 shot though the vegetation the limb, the bad guy, and the guy behind him.

[citation needed]

All I've ever read was reports and stories from Vietnam praising the terminal ballistics of the M16 with the original ammo and barrel twist.

Lots of people bitching about the reliability, but not the terminal ballistics. The "wounding weapon" part has always been BS.

From reading about Vietnam I didn't come to the conclusion that "5.56mm sucks". I came to the conclusion that "SS109 sucks".

You want me to cite all the stuff I read about soldiers hating on the 5.56? Hell man I don't know where all those pages are....I haven't been a gun owner for years and years, but i've been interested in them for a very long time I have not kept tabs on everything I've read. That said the amount of hate soldiers give the peashooter rounds are out there like crazy. This one I found as soon as i read your post and went to bing search. It's pretty long and gives a lot of first hand accounts (some talking about successful 5.56 kills) in the end its about how they need a real round and this is the end of the article.

"The lethality of the 5.56mm cartridge, sold on lies, cannot be fixed in truth. It is time the Department of Defense recognizes this 'Big Lie' from the Vietnam War and in the names of MSgt Kevin N. Morehead and SFC William M. Bennett replaces this varmint cartridge with one that gives our warriors that critical capability described by SFC Paul Howe above——one—round knockdown power! "

^^^ This is also damn near the quote I mentioned in my post by Ronnie Barret in his Rec7 video.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2004/08/the_last_big_lie_of_vietnam_ki.html

I'm just going on what I've read and how I feel. I feel the round CAN get the job done and I also think its a great plinking and target shooting round. If I'm going to battle you can be damn sure I'm taking a M1A, Scar H or something along those lines. It might be heavier but still manageable and just like anything else your body will adapt to the added weight and will become in shape to carry it. We had soldiers running around carrying M60s 240s and all that type of weaponry also....like the bosses they are!

I'm not a veteran, but I can see the logic of their claims from a little bullet and will take their word for it. If I can guaranteed drop someone in one shot (maybe even a guy or 2 behind them as well

)and even penetrate cover worlds better than a .22 at the cost of a few lbs then I would do it. You may not agree and thats fine, everybody is different. There are tons of articles of people bashing your pea shooter rounds though.

How old are you?

Here in the US, school kids will be on Spring Break for the next month or so.

Posted: 3/15/2012 2:45:29 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
I read his book. He comes across as a tremendous asshole. Not a role model for anyone to follow. Great opportunities to kill and thanks for your service and all that but he's a jackass.

I haven't read it. What gave you that impression? Hes cocky or something?

Posted: 3/15/2012 2:49:01 PM EDT

[#32]

.300 Win Mag is considered the .40 S&W of precision bolt-gun calibers

that should make some heads explode

Posted: 3/15/2012 3:00:20 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

My preferred round was a TLAM-C with GPS guidance.

I think this guy's statement is being taken out of context. I doubt he's advocating .300WinMag as a general issue caliber.

What would be wrong with that?

Posted: 3/15/2012 3:04:33 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

.300 Win Mag is considered the .40 S&W of precision bolt-gun calibers

that should make some heads explode

Intredasting. I prefer 9mm and am also considering picking up a .300WM for long range deer hunting and elk.

What are the 9mm and .45 of precision calibers?

Posted: 3/15/2012 3:13:43 PM EDT

[#35]

I am sure he is very good at what he does, but his status as a SEAL doesn't necessarily mean he knows what he is talking about with regards to terminal ballistics and physics, nor is it enough to make me disregard the mountain of empirical data that seems to indicate other wise.

He's probably looking at it from the different perspective of shooting somebody from really really far away, and is likely being quoted out of context.

Posted: 3/15/2012 3:31:31 PM EDT

[#36]

I have shot several people with M193 bullets from a 1/12 twist M16A1 and none of them ever shot back at me. Of course I didn't stand around to see if they were going to.

Being a Foward Observer my prefered round was 4X105mm rounds. I really don't like getting close enough to the buggers to use a rifle but sometimes it comes up.

Posted: 3/15/2012 3:32:45 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
There are a bunch of people without a pulse these days due to that round.

on both sides

Posted: 3/15/2012 3:42:08 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
My preferred round was a TLAM-C with GPS guidance.

I think this guy's statement is being taken out of context. I doubt he's advocating .300WinMag as a general issue caliber.

Years ago, in the late '90s, I had a chance to talk with a SEAL Team 3 sniper aboard USS Duluth during Fleet Week in SF. I asked him if ammo availability for .300 Win Mag was an issue, given it's rarity in US service at the time. He just looked at me and said - It has a flatter trajectory - end of statement. It was obvious the SEALs had no concerns in the procurement department for any weapon or ammo type.

Posted: 3/15/2012 3:42:24 PM EDT

[#39]

After spending a great deal of time pondering the kinetic energy equation, I have designed the perfect round - a guaranteed man-stopper! There's a bit of recoil, but it shouldn't bother any but the sissiest. You do have to watch out for overpenetration, but hey, know your target and what's beyond, right? Nothing a little situational awareness won't cover.

Here's a pic:

Posted: 3/15/2012 3:46:27 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I read his book. He comes across as a tremendous asshole. Not a role model for anyone to follow. Great opportunities to kill and thanks for your service and all that but he's a jackass.

I haven't read it. What gave you that impression? Hes cocky or something?

He is cocky, and got in bar fights, but he cared for his fellow soldiers, family, and freidns.

He didnt come across as an asshole to me, and on numerous occasions he blamed himself when a fellow soldier got hurt.

He also says on numerous occasions he liked his job and was good at it but there was alot of luck when it came to how he got his kill count. According to him he was just in the right place at the right time most of the time.

Posted: 3/15/2012 3:53:01 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
One time I was sitting at a meal with an active duty sniper and he told a story of a conversation he had with a visiting senior officer. The conversation went like this:

Officer: "Could you guarantee a kill at 2,000 yards?"
Sniper: "Yes."
Officer: "You sure?"
Sniper: "Yes"
Officer: "What weapon would you use to do it?"
Sniper: "A radio."

I can actually see my son sayin somthing like this.

Posted: 3/15/2012 3:53:52 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
In his book he described using a variety of weapons for his sniping duties but favored the .300 WinMag.

Is that the round he preferred for breaching and room clearing?

Posted: 3/15/2012 3:55:36 PM EDT

[#43]

Why would anyone choose 5.56 for a sniper round?

But really the worst you can say about it is that it's adequate.

Posted: 3/15/2012 3:58:27 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
.30 cal rifles and .45 pistols

Bah! .45 cal rifles!!!!

Posted: 3/16/2012 5:30:55 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
I read his book. He comes across as a tremendous asshole. Not a role model for anyone to follow. Great opportunities to kill and thanks for your service and all that but he's a jackass.

If I was a no-shit death dealin mother fucker like that "tremendous asshole" would be on my drivers license.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 3/16/2012 5:46:11 AM EDT

[#46]

The preferred round is anything you can get a hit with the easiest. I'll take a .22LR hit at 200m over a .50 cal miss at point blank...

Posted: 3/16/2012 5:52:49 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
Hell, there is no round capable of being fired by a rifleman from the shoulder that will give you one shit kills every time.

Hot pockets will do that. Some of the stuff from Taco Bell, too. And Guinness will do the trick every time.

Posted: 3/16/2012 5:57:02 AM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
.700 T-Rex.

http://www.geekologie.com/2011/12/06/homemade-trex-rifle.jpg

Good God. I want one

Posted: 3/16/2012 6:02:35 AM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/Army-fgm148.jpg/300px-Army-fgm148.jpg

yea but fuck carrying that son of a bitch. I was on a javelin team for about 6 months and it was impossible to carry enough batteries to feed the CLU.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - "the 5.56 is not a preferred bullet to shoot someone with"- Chris Kyle SEAL Sniper (Page 3 of 3)

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