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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:29:43 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A posse or lynch mob is still a collective. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:29:51 PM EDT
[#2]
There are Libertarians (big L) and libertarians (little L). The former is what you're describing. Many others identify as the latter, including me.
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:30:02 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I own a property through which passes a navigable stream. You use the stream for transportation. I build a bridge over the stream that enables me to get farm equipment from one side to the other. This lowers my operating costs to the degree I can still stay in business. The construction of the bridge renders the stream non navigable. How do you resolve this situation? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: What would an example of that be and what makes you think there would be no consequences if an individual attempted to violate my rights? I build a bridge over the stream that enables me to get farm equipment from one side to the other. This lowers my operating costs to the degree I can still stay in business. The construction of the bridge renders the stream non navigable. How do you resolve this situation? 
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:30:43 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Duel at high noon.
Seriously though, it's shit like that that makes governments necessary. And since it's shit that's necessary, that government needs to have (just enough) authority to settle matters like that. And it needs to be done fairly and transparently, so that after you and I go through the process to resolve our dispute, we can accept the outcome even if we lose. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:30:56 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's only true when they get it right. I'm all about hanging horse thieves, but I'm not down with settling scores by calling neighbors horse thieves. The Justice of the Peace or Sheriff has to have integrity. As do the citizens called upon to be deputized for the posse. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Vigilante justice is the only true justice as all other justice requires mandatory contribution to the collective. I'm all about hanging horse thieves, but I'm not down with settling scores by calling neighbors horse thieves. The Justice of the Peace or Sheriff has to have integrity. As do the citizens called upon to be deputized for the posse. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:30:59 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Like communists/socialists, Libertarian are also Utopians who get human nature wrong. Libertarian's misunderstanding of human nature is benign. Communists/socialists misunderstanding of human nature is malignant. Libertarians are misguided. Communists/socialists are evil. IMO. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:31:23 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree. And if we still taught civics in an intellectually honest manner, so would most of our fellow citizens, because they would have come to the reasoned conclusion themselves. I agree with your basic premise. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:32:00 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Private entities who can be hired to track, hunt and kill people. Yes, if you died or there was no one there to hire said private entity or get revenge on your behalf then they would get away with it. Much like they would today actually. I'm playing devils advocate on this one because I think there is a place for civilian law enforcement. You can have that and still be small government. Small government doesn't mean no government. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:32:49 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Even small l libertarianism is dependent on others being rational actors and not barbarians. Sometimes you need to spool up the Leviathan to make the country a safe place for small government thought. Locke met with the educated elite, Hobbes met the general public. Within the early republic, the internal politics were mostly along libertarian ideals. You need force to deal with the barbarians, like the French. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:33:39 PM EDT
[#10]
I know a guy who is a hard line libertarian, and some of the stuff and reasoning he uses and posts of social media are just out there. Basically thinks there should be little to no government at all and that everyone and everything would just self govern and self regulate and be hunky dory.
I’m all for free market economics but if anyone thinks that without any regulation at all things would be fair and even at all are off base. It’s like the same people who constantly harp on no regulations at all but then turn around and bitch and moan about how companies like Amazon are running that small man out of business and donating to political causes they don’t like. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:33:39 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That’s why all justice must be individual to individual. If someone harms you only you can do something about it or pay the bounty for the person who will exact justice. Taxation is theft. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:33:48 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Heh now who's the utopian? |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:33:51 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Even small l libertarianism is dependent on others being rational actors and not barbarians. Sometimes you need to spool up the Leviathan to make the country a safe place for small government thought. Locke met with the educated elite, Hobbes met the general public. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: What does that have to do with small L libertarians? You are talking full blown ones there. I could sure do with a lot less .gov in my life, on every level.....I guess that is why I'm a Independent because I know the Uniparty will fall all over each other to create new and more oppressive laws and then the non-elected regulators will add insult to injury......A pox on all their houses. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:34:47 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Its the reason for the Constitution--projecting military power against dirty foreigners. Within the early republic, the internal politics were mostly along libertarian ideals. You need force to deal with the barbarians, like the French. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:34:51 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Talk with enough of them and you'll figure out that they are all frauds, just like most conservatives. A perfect libertarian government would have the entire government funded by tariffs (no need to track a citizen's property, sales, or income), but look at any libertarian outlet and they are screaming bloody murder about tariffs. Some are even in favor of shit like carbon taxes. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:37:24 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A posse or lynch mob is still a collective. Hey AK, it's Sheriff Primus, I need 10 men for a posse, can you serve? vs Surrender your farm Kulak, you now farm while starving for the glory of socialist labor. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:37:54 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Now get people to vote that into reality instead of getting free money for existing. You will be doomed to search for voters like Diogenes roaming for an honest man. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Armed men would not be needed at the end buyer level. You either buy the shit with the tax attached or you don't buy it. As far as the businesses making sure they pay the tax to the .gov, yes you would need a .gov entity to enforce and have checks and balances on it. So I agree that they are a necessity but in a very, very , small capacity as compared to today. Anybody that thinks a 1st world nation would survive against other nations without a tax payer backed national defense is a fucking retard. Their definition of absolute freedom is flawed. Absolute freedom only comes if you can protect and secure it and on the world scale it takes a well funded .gov entity to be able to protect it, and also a well armed populace to protect from the .gov.  |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:39:49 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah but the collective routinely executes people in the middle of the night where other people dare to possess a plant now. It couldn’t possibly be worse. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Vigilante justice is the only true justice as all other justice requires mandatory contribution to the collective. I'm all about hanging horse thieves, but I'm not down with settling scores by calling neighbors horse thieves. The Justice of the Peace or Sheriff has to have integrity. As do the citizens called upon to be deputized for the posse. 
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:40:33 PM EDT
[#19]
Libertarians are the only people that put Bumper Stickers on road signs.
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:41:05 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The accountability comes from the voters' ability to remove their consent to be governed. In practice that works better if the voters are all armed. But it also comes with the voters voting on matters at the local level, for people they know well enough to trust or not trust with matters of integrity. IOW, as many important decisions as possible are made at the lowest level possible. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:42:06 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So what's your plan? |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:43:08 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So some taxation isn’t theft? No, give me liberty or give me death. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Private entities who can be hired to track, hunt and kill people. Yes, if you died or there was no one there to hire said private entity or get revenge on your behalf then they would get away with it. Much like they would today actually. I'm playing devils advocate on this one because I think there is a place for civilian law enforcement. You can have that and still be small government. Small government doesn't mean no government. Even our founders agreed that certain taxes are necessary. You can't expect to be a world power without them. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:43:28 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Taxation is theft only if you don't consent to it and are bound to the land. Since nobody here is bound to the land it's pretty easy to move somewhere with less burdensome regulation and like minded people. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That’s why all justice must be individual to individual. If someone harms you only you can do something about it or pay the bounty for the person who will exact justice. Taxation is theft. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:43:52 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Taxation is theft only if you don't consent to it and are bound to the land. Since nobody here is bound to the land it's pretty easy to move somewhere with less burdensome regulation and like minded people. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That’s why all justice must be individual to individual. If someone harms you only you can do something about it or pay the bounty for the person who will exact justice. Taxation is theft. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:44:32 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
the difference is that they are not products of collectivization. Hey AK, it's Sheriff Primus, I need 10 men for a posse, can you serve? vs Surrender your farm Kulak, you now farm while starving for the glory of socialist labor. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:44:36 PM EDT
[#26]
Hey OP,
Do you have any children? |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:45:19 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Play the system and population like a fiddle within the confines of the law and teach my descendants to do the same. Let the system pay to undermine itself on it's own. This country will make you rich if you let it. I can buy dynamite, new machine guns, fast boats and cars, airplanes, and all kinds of other stuff. We love in clown world, enjoy the ride and don't fuss about stuff out of your hands. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: So what's your plan?  Attached File
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:46:58 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Like I said. There are some necessary taxes when you expect to be successful on the world stage. If you don't like it then you are free to go to one of many third world shitholes with no government and get ass raped until you pay the piper, or you could be the one doing the ass raping I guess. Even our founders agreed that certain taxes are necessary. You can't expect to be a world power without them. Would you rather be free or a world power? |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:47:03 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
I have spent several days streaming a Libertarian podcast. Full disclosure: I am a registered Libertarian. I have concluded that Libertarians are possessed of child-like mentalities, a complaint which they levy about Socialists. Libertarians are effectively clueless about the world, and will never be taken seriously by anyone seeking political direction. That is all . How letting int people who come from a culture entirely opposed to yours, and embrace socialism and government control further advances libertarians? |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:47:27 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I simply see libertarianism as a check to all other ideologies that inevitably swing towards tyranny given the slightest opportunity. I have to have extreme tenets of belief in small government is OK but no government is better, since every other political persuasion in the country has the ultimate goal of pinning me under either the right or left thumb. Even while I realize it's an impossible goal to achieve. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:47:42 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You assume the capacity to reason. I agree with your basic premise. This was in a country that relied primarily on the one room school house. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:49:34 PM EDT
[#32]
Whos gonna build the roadz?
CHACKMATE loberts |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:53:04 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Play the system and population like a fiddle within the confines of the law and teach my descendants to do the same. Let the system pay to undermine itself on it's own. This country will make you rich if you let it. I can buy dynamite, new machine guns, fast boats and cars, airplanes, and all kinds of other stuff. We love in clown world, enjoy the ride and don't fuss about stuff out of your hands. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: So what's your plan? |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:53:20 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Whos gonna build the roadz? CHACKMATE loberts a major toll highway connecting two major interstates is owned by a Spanish company, and its the best maintained road i've ever seen with express lanes for a dollar. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:55:54 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hey OP, Do you have any children? But I taught other people's children for a decade - a long, harrowing decade. God Save me. 
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:56:23 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm all about hanging horse thieves, but I'm not down with settling scores by calling neighbors horse thieves. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:57:14 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That’s why all justice must be individual to individual. If someone harms you only you can do something about it or pay the bounty for the person who will exact justice. Taxation is theft. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: A posse or lynch mob is still a collective. Can I, prior to being murdered, pre-pay someone to exact justice for me after I am murdered? "Hey man, if I get murdered, will you murder them right back for me?" "Sure, for $5,000." "Here's $5,000. Thanks, man." What if that was a monthly payment instead of a lump sum? What if that 'someone' also did that for other people? What if he hired other people to help him? What if he made good on the payments and had a good reputation? What if that was the norm, and it was also the norm for there to be only one overall entity like that per community? This kinda sounds like opting out of the property taxes for the fire department. They're there, but won't provide services to you. There can a whole lot of voluntary stuff going on to essentially approximate a governmental law enforcement agency without taxes, and there's a decent argument to made that the taxpayers ought to be able to fire the entirety of a LEA and start over from scratch... just like I ought to be able to fire my insurance provider and go without or choose some other insurance company. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 4:00:28 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Absent a delegated authority to enforce the law if someone shot you from 600 yards out and took your stuff there is no penalty or consequence for doing so. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 4:04:26 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Contractors. Like always. a major toll highway connecting two major interstates is owned by a Spanish company, and its the best maintained road i've ever seen with express lanes for a dollar. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 4:07:22 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe it's because I live in Texas, every libertarian I've ever met was a glaze eyed non questioning worshipper of Ron Paul. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 4:07:44 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
TAXATION IS THEFT Would you rather be free or a world power? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Like I said. There are some necessary taxes when you expect to be successful on the world stage. If you don't like it then you are free to go to one of many third world shitholes with no government and get ass raped until you pay the piper, or you could be the one doing the ass raping I guess. Even our founders agreed that certain taxes are necessary. You can't expect to be a world power without them. Would you rather be free or a world power? 
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Posted: 6/26/2019 4:09:51 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Or, we could:
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I simply see libertarianism as a check to all other ideologies that inevitably swing towards tyranny given the slightest opportunity. I have to have extreme tenets of belief in small government is OK but no government is better, since every other political persuasion in the country has the ultimate goal of pinning me under either the right or left thumb. Even while I realize it's an impossible goal to achieve.
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Posted: 6/26/2019 4:14:12 PM EDT
[#43]
I'm philosophically a small l libertarian, but all of my political thoughts nowadays end up with...
"if you don't pay taxes you shouldn't be able to vote." or... "there aren't enough people dangling from beltway overpasses." depending on my mood. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 4:15:37 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Talk with enough of them and you'll figure out that they are all frauds, just like most conservatives. A perfect libertarian government would have the entire government funded by tariffs (no need to track a citizen's property, sales, or income), but look at any libertarian outlet and they are screaming bloody murder about tariffs. Some are even in favor of shit like carbon taxes. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 4:16:37 PM EDT
[#45]
It fails as a political party and wins as an ideology.
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Posted: 6/26/2019 4:19:08 PM EDT
[#46]
I find I am unable to disagree with the OP. Full disclosure I am a far right conservative. Most libertarian political tests I take place me in the same Authoritarian quadrant as Hitler. Strangely I tend to vote Republican.
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Posted: 6/26/2019 4:19:13 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Like communists/socialists, Libertarian are also Utopians who get human nature wrong. Libertarian's misunderstanding of human nature is benign. Communists/socialists misunderstanding of human nature is malignant. Libertarians are misguided. Communists/socialists are evil. IMO. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 4:20:52 PM EDT
[#48]
The problem libertarians have is how the fuck do you go about convincing people to think for themselves?
You can’t beat it into them? You can’t re-educate them? So all that really happens is the control freak types convince all the stupid people that they have all the answers. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 4:24:01 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Like communists/socialists, Libertarian are also Utopians who get human nature wrong. Libertarian's misunderstanding of human nature is benign. Communists/socialists misunderstanding of human nature is malignant. Libertarians are misguided. Communists/socialists are evil. IMO. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 4:28:38 PM EDT
[#50]
They're first order thinkers with too many ideas formulated in a vacuum and not enough time spent in the real world. [l]ibertarianism is a great personal belief system, but it's not a viable political ideology...the more you scale it up, the worse it gets.
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