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Posted: 8/19/2024 3:52:12 PM EST
[#1]
Tag
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Posted: 8/19/2024 4:17:36 PM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Backscatter: My favorite threads! Looking forward to seeing how you all make the front glass, especially if you choose the "F or G" models. https://www.worldwarphotos.info/wp-content/gallery/usa/aircrafts/b-17b/Close-Up_Shot_of_B-17G_Nose.jpg ETA "E" model front showing metal bracing for multi piece glazing. https://live.staticflickr.com/3895/14215499130_ae4c259544_b.jpg Given the experience so far with plexiglass and success, I believe they've reached their zenith without specialized equipment, such as a heated vacuum forming system. Gloves and heat guns can only do so much since keeping the heat even is impossible when it gets to that size and the amount of "stretch" needed to create a dome as shown in the latest one is beyond heat guns and gloves. Will need to do the spiderweb of struts to put slightly arcing chunks of plexiglass into and even then keeping them uniformly consistent around the entire arc will be a challenge. Still think a Full F-32 should be added if doing any part of one in addition to the bomber nose, which could be knocked out before Christmas with the now skilled crews he's got in the pipeline. Maybe more 3D printed aspects added as well. |
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Posted: 8/19/2024 4:24:58 PM EST
[#3]
Great way to avoid the plexiglass problem - battle damage.
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Posted: 8/19/2024 4:29:52 PM EST
[#4]
These are the best threads on ARFCOM.
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Posted: 8/19/2024 4:31:13 PM EST
[#5]
I love these threads!
  Are we ever going to see the USS Wisconsin firing broadside or PVT. John Steele hanging from the church steeple? |
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Posted: 8/19/2024 4:38:59 PM EST
[#6]
IN ON 2...
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Posted: 8/19/2024 4:43:26 PM EST
[#7]
Tag for another one.
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Posted: 8/19/2024 4:51:17 PM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By brass: Given the experience so far with plexiglass and success, I believe they've reached their zenith without specialized equipment, such as a heated vacuum forming system. Gloves and heat guns can only do so much since keeping the heat even is impossible when it gets to that size and the amount of "stretch" needed to create a dome as shown in the latest one is beyond heat guns and gloves. Will need to do the spiderweb of struts to put slightly arcing chunks of plexiglass into and even then keeping them uniformly consistent around the entire arc will be a challenge. Still think a Full F-32 should be added if doing any part of one in addition to the bomber nose, which could be knocked out before Christmas with the now skilled crews he's got in the pipeline. Maybe more 3D printed aspects added as well. I sort of remember them having difficulties with the F-35 canopy, which is what got me thinking about it. The F and G models were a two piece design, so it might be doable with thin Lexan, something like RC car bodies. Going with the E model might be easier but then the chin turret idea goes out the window. At least the plexiglass was not riveted in. 
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Posted: 8/19/2024 4:55:42 PM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Backscatter: I sort of remember them having difficulties with the F-35 canopy, which is what got me thinking about it. The F and G models were a two piece design, so it might be doable with thin Lexan, something like RC car bodies. Going with the E model might be easier but then the chin turret idea goes out the window. At least the plexiglass was not riveted in. Yup, the E model glass will likely be why we go that way. The segments look similar to our VH-60. |
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Posted: 8/19/2024 4:56:52 PM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SilasB: Great way to avoid the plexiglass problem - battle damage. There are plenty of references, for sure. Pretty crazy. |
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Posted: 8/19/2024 5:05:01 PM EST
[#11]
B17G...and get the Robotics kids on this one, have a sensor that tracks that chin turret at anyone standing too close...
Subscribed! |
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Posted: 8/19/2024 5:14:34 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TexRdnec: same Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TexRdnec: Originally Posted By Sierra5: Awwww yeah, the B-17 is my favorite aircraft ever. I love these projects! same Same. B17 is my favorite. A bit bold, but maybe reach out to the Master of the Air people and see if they have anything from the filming that they could give you? Could also reach out to the museum of aviation and/or the museum of the mighty eighth? |
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Posted: 8/19/2024 5:16:14 PM EST
[#13]
Awaiting where to send my money again!
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Posted: 8/19/2024 5:19:15 PM EST
[#14]
You're gonna hate me but have you considered doing the front end of Bock's Car instead, with the Fat Man bomb dropping away. . .but do a half cutaway version of both plane and bomb to show internals?
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Posted: 8/19/2024 5:28:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: somedude]
[#15]
Aside from Ironclads or a Gatling.
not sure what else awesome you can do. Maybe Tanks? Robotics fits in all over. with what you have and what you don't Whether its Terminator, Aliens, Harry Potter, Vietnam. Stargate Adding a pilots head that moves and and thumbs up? have fun with it. plenty of modern versions of ravage if you needed more geeks on the project. 
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Posted: 8/19/2024 5:33:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: qbateaux]
[#16]
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Posted: 8/19/2024 5:34:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: brass]
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By somedude: Aside from Ironclads or a Gatling. not sure what else awesome you can do. Maybe Tanks? Robotics fits in all over. with what you have and what you don't Whether its Terminator, Aliens, Harry Potter, Vietnam. Stargate Adding a pilots head that moves and and thumbs up? have fun with it. plenty of modern versions of ravage if you needed more geeks on the project. https://preview.redd.it/day-44-if-every-version-of-ravage-fought-in-a-cage-match-v0-2o6jocbn8o981.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=e14d9a148d1b92b6c63952b39140c76325d05a76 I like that bottom row center one. Still a rounded organic sort of shape but made out of metal, rather than going for the all angular facet form. Maybe extend a muzzle on the front instead of the rounded face without protruding jaws. |
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Posted: 8/19/2024 5:56:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: guns762]
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By drfroglegs: Same. B17 is my favorite. A bit bold, but maybe reach out to the Master of the Air people and see if they have anything from the filming that they could give you? Could also reach out to the museum of aviation and/or the museum of the mighty eighth? I'd love to have an old jacket, and uniform to hang in the display. Was thinking about this earlier on how we could aquire one. Masters of the Air was definitely part of the inspiration for this year.
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Posted: 8/19/2024 5:59:13 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By somedude: Aside from Ironclads or a Gatling. not sure what else awesome you can do. Maybe Tanks? Robotics fits in all over. with what you have and what you don't Whether its Terminator, Aliens, Harry Potter, Vietnam. Stargate Adding a pilots head that moves and and thumbs up? have fun with it. plenty of modern versions of ravage if you needed more geeks on the project. https://preview.redd.it/day-44-if-every-version-of-ravage-fought-in-a-cage-match-v0-2o6jocbn8o981.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=e14d9a148d1b92b6c63952b39140c76325d05a76 I need to find a 3D version for scale and ideas for the kids. I've been in meetings all afternoon, so I didn't get a chance to search much. |
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Posted: 8/19/2024 6:10:11 PM EST
[#20]
Been waiting for this thread to start!
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Posted: 8/19/2024 7:15:30 PM EST
[#21]
I found a few 1/72 scale B-17E model kits for sale on Amazon. I'll order one tomorrow.
I need to find something for the NGAD fighter. That seems to be much more difficult. |
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Posted: 8/19/2024 7:18:41 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By qbateaux: Keith Ferris Smithsonian Mural for inspiration. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/273720/1000000887_jpg-3299108.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/273720/1000000886_jpg-3299109.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/273720/1000000888_jpg-3299110.JPG Wow! That's cool! |
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Posted: 8/19/2024 7:22:04 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By brass: Given the experience so far with plexiglass and success, I believe they've reached their zenith without specialized equipment, such as a heated vacuum forming system. Gloves and heat guns can only do so much since keeping the heat even is impossible when it gets to that size and the amount of "stretch" needed to create a dome as shown in the latest one is beyond heat guns and gloves. Will need to do the spiderweb of struts to put slightly arcing chunks of plexiglass into and even then keeping them uniformly consistent around the entire arc will be a challenge. Still think a Full F-32 should be added if doing any part of one in addition to the bomber nose, which could be knocked out before Christmas with the now skilled crews he's got in the pipeline. Maybe more 3D printed aspects added as well. Man, brass, that F-32 is just too ugly. I know many love the look of the A-6 and A-7, but for a NGAD......I can't do it. I need something a bit more like those concept images in the OP. Not sure what the designation is for those. |
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Posted: 8/19/2024 7:23:01 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By guns762: I need to find something for the NGAD fighter. That seems to be much more difficult. Anything you find in the public domain will be wrong. 
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Posted: 8/19/2024 7:26:38 PM EST
[#25]
Oh Boy, Oh Boy, Oh Boy!
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Posted: 8/19/2024 7:54:11 PM EST
[#26]
What eventually happens to completed projects?
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MI, USA
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Posted: 8/19/2024 8:08:40 PM EST
[#27]
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Posted: 8/19/2024 8:11:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: brass]
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DasRonin: What eventually happens to completed projects? They get added onto, just like this one. The biplane was one of the first ones, the F-22 was a few years ago, they went into new alcoves in the school every year. Until he ran out of empty alcoves. Now he's going back around the ones that aren't as jam packed, like the dragon ship last year and hence it got a whole new giant dragon, diorama, better ship, and lots more. This one should improve and get a lot busier as well, just not sure how much. Plans often expand once the students get involved. @DasRonin Last years finished project (Dragons and ships) See page 1 for the beginnings, just as this thread is. A lot happens and it's a fun ride. |
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Posted: 8/19/2024 8:18:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: SilasB]
[#29]
Some generic info about nose art that might help. Looking at Eighth Air Force, the largest and most documented of Army Air Forces of WWII (because of press access in England), roughly 30 ~ 40% of all B-17s had no artwork at all. Vargas style pinups were not the norm but were always widely photographed. They looked great. Most nose art was only text but of widely varying styles. Aircraft with illustration of any kind stood out.
Popular aircraft names within squadrons would get recycled as aircraft were lost or rotated stateside as war weary trainers. You could have Bob, Bob II, Bob III and so on. Additionally, aircraft would be renamed and/or artwork changed as new crews came to replace the losses or those rotating. The only reliable constant for the aircraft was the tail number. Names were everything from popular song titles, lyrics, girls, spouses, cities/states, ironic cliches, inside jokes, you name it. Around the aircraft at each position there often be personal names under windows (their girl's name or kid's names). Important also to remember, nobody owned any particular aircraft. They belonged to the squadrons. Crews did not fly every sequential mission, nor did every aircraft. Crews needed down time and aircraft needed maintenance. Crews flew the aircraft assigned to them by mission. If losses were particularly bad, aircraft and/or crews could be pulled from other squadrons within the group, or even the division. |
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Posted: 8/19/2024 8:36:51 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DasRonin: What eventually happens to completed projects? They stay there....... at least as long as I remain teaching. Staff are quite proud to show them off to family that comes into town. Several came up to me today to tell me of their tours this summer. 
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Posted: 8/19/2024 9:11:51 PM EST
[#31]
Oh yes. I am in. I am retired now so funds are limited, but I still have access to those 10 pound glue sticks. I got hooked at the train year as I am a steam fan.
But I have all the shirts since. Happy to help with anything I can.  
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Posted: 8/19/2024 9:43:11 PM EST
[#32]
A check of B-17 names from Wally Foreman's reference shows no Wyoming or larger cities names noted.
You're probably already aware of the Cheyenne Modification Center that was a major player in B-17 war time history. Hopefully there are good references there and some historical records available to you. Another cool tidbit I had forgotten, the Cheyenne tail mod for the tail gun. Wrong end of the plane, but hopefully will make it into a model or illustration. |
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Posted: 8/19/2024 9:47:18 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Polupharmakos: You're gonna hate me but have you considered doing the front end of Bock's Car instead, with the Fat Man bomb dropping away. . .but do a half cutaway version of both plane and bomb to show internals? And make the internals glow in the dark, and have pocket dosimeters in open buckets at the entrances to the space.
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Posted: 8/19/2024 10:06:17 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: And make the internals glow in the dark, and have pocket dosimeters in open buckets at the entrances to the space. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: Originally Posted By Polupharmakos: You're gonna hate me but have you considered doing the front end of Bock's Car instead, with the Fat Man bomb dropping away. . .but do a half cutaway version of both plane and bomb to show internals? And make the internals glow in the dark, and have pocket dosimeters in open buckets at the entrances to the space. That was in my vision. Black metallic or holographic paint on black paint with orange underglow lights. |
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Posted: 8/19/2024 10:15:15 PM EST
[#35]
Not in on page one. again.
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Posted: 8/19/2024 10:33:44 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By UncleEric: Not in on page one. again. 
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Posted: 8/19/2024 10:38:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: redoubt]
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By UncleEric: Not in on page one. again. 
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Posted: 8/19/2024 10:42:32 PM EST
[#38]
Rivets... I see lots of rivets in the students future.
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Posted: 8/19/2024 10:44:24 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AZNetEng: Rivets... I see lots of rivets in the students future.  |
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Posted: 8/20/2024 4:37:32 AM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By redoubt: https://wallup.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/17/280797-aircraft-Boeing_B-17_Flying_Fortress-World_War_II.jpg Yes lots of rivets. My son witnessed the take off of the 9-O-9 on it's fateful flight. He knew it was in trouble as it flew over his head on takeoff. EBR |
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Posted: 8/20/2024 5:08:31 AM EST
[#41]
Tagged
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Posted: 8/20/2024 6:57:36 AM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rocketman89408: Oh yes. I am in. I am retired now so funds are limited, but I still have access to those 10 pound glue sticks. I got hooked at the train year as I am a steam fan. But I have all the shirts since. Happy to help with anything I can. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/338891/IMG_20240114_154323488-3094716.jpg Your donations have been amazing. The gluesticks we go through in a year is crazy. They are very much appreciated! |
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Posted: 8/20/2024 7:01:18 AM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 15jonshoot: Might help. YES!!!!!  That definitely will help getting us started. I'll see about getting that 3D printed. I was told yesterday, the Robotics finally got a decent 3D scanner too. We talked about how we can utilize it during this project. |
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Posted: 8/20/2024 9:28:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: shack357]
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spongebobkatpants: Anything you find in the public domain will be wrong. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spongebobkatpants: Originally Posted By guns762: I need to find something for the NGAD fighter. That seems to be much more difficult. Anything you find in the public domain will be wrong. Remember the "F-19" Stealth kits in the 80s? All curves? Then the F117 was announced and it was nothing like what they thought the F19 would look like? Maybe start with the F19 as an example and tweak the design to suit the display? That would probably be as close to "right" as anything. |
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Posted: 8/20/2024 11:45:40 AM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By shack357: Remember the "F-19" Stealth kits in the 80s? All curves? Then the F117 was announced and it was nothing like what they thought the F19 would look like? Maybe start with the F19 as an example and tweak the design to suit the display? That would probably be as close to "right" as anything. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By shack357: Originally Posted By spongebobkatpants: Originally Posted By guns762: I need to find something for the NGAD fighter. That seems to be much more difficult. Anything you find in the public domain will be wrong. Remember the "F-19" Stealth kits in the 80s? All curves? Then the F117 was announced and it was nothing like what they thought the F19 would look like? Maybe start with the F19 as an example and tweak the design to suit the display? That would probably be as close to "right" as anything. Yeah, kind of my thoughts too. |
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Posted: 8/20/2024 1:34:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: brass]
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By shack357: Remember the "F-19" Stealth kits in the 80s? All curves? Then the F117 was announced and it was nothing like what they thought the F19 would look like? Maybe start with the F19 as an example and tweak the design to suit the display? That would probably be as close to "right" as anything. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By shack357: Originally Posted By spongebobkatpants: Originally Posted By guns762: I need to find something for the NGAD fighter. That seems to be much more difficult. Anything you find in the public domain will be wrong. Remember the "F-19" Stealth kits in the 80s? All curves? Then the F117 was announced and it was nothing like what they thought the F19 would look like? Maybe start with the F19 as an example and tweak the design to suit the display? That would probably be as close to "right" as anything.  I remember the PC "Flight Simulators" For F22, F23 and F25 IIRC, All sorts of goofy numbers in the late 80s/early 90s and the "amazing graphics" were barely arcade game level due to video cards still only displaying what the CPU was rendering and a 25 MHz CPU couldn't render very much at all.  |
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Posted: 8/20/2024 1:59:50 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By brass: https://i.imgur.com/QtfnZyf.jpeg I remember the PC "Flight Simulators" For F22, F23 and F25 IIRC, All sorts of goofy numbers in the late 80s/early 90s and the "amazing graphics" were barely arcade game level due to video cards still only displaying what the CPU was rendering and a 25 MHz CPU couldn't render very much at all. https://i.imgur.com/IqPckBe.jpeg I ordered two B-17 models. An E and an F model. I think we can incorporate one or both into the display after we use one for scaling. Unfortunately, finding an F-19 of anything other than an empty box, on Amazon is not happening. It's a bit tougher to order through the school on other websites, but I see some listed on etsy. I may see if we can get one of those. We will also see if the 3D CAD drawing linked above will get us something too. The robotics teacher is working on that right now. If anyone has a chance to find a large cat/sabertooth tiger/lion/panther skeleton kit, like those dinosaur ones, post up a link. I need something like that so we can construct a decent base to the new panther sculpture. |
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Posted: 8/20/2024 2:49:02 PM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By brass: https://i.imgur.com/QtfnZyf.jpeg I remember the PC "Flight Simulators" For F22, F23 and F25 IIRC, All sorts of goofy numbers in the late 80s/early 90s and the "amazing graphics" were barely arcade game level due to video cards still only displaying what the CPU was rendering and a 25 MHz CPU couldn't render very much at all. https://i.imgur.com/IqPckBe.jpeg Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By brass: Originally Posted By shack357: Originally Posted By spongebobkatpants: Originally Posted By guns762: I need to find something for the NGAD fighter. That seems to be much more difficult. Anything you find in the public domain will be wrong. Remember the "F-19" Stealth kits in the 80s? All curves? Then the F117 was announced and it was nothing like what they thought the F19 would look like? Maybe start with the F19 as an example and tweak the design to suit the display? That would probably be as close to "right" as anything. https://i.imgur.com/QtfnZyf.jpeg I remember the PC "Flight Simulators" For F22, F23 and F25 IIRC, All sorts of goofy numbers in the late 80s/early 90s and the "amazing graphics" were barely arcade game level due to video cards still only displaying what the CPU was rendering and a 25 MHz CPU couldn't render very much at all. https://i.imgur.com/IqPckBe.jpeg That's the exact kit I had in mind. I also remember no two kits ever looked the same. |
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Posted: 8/20/2024 10:15:19 PM EST
[#49]
In on two!
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Posted: 8/21/2024 8:48:22 AM EST
[#50]
Couple things I thought I'd clarify a bit for folks. The more ideas we get for this set of projects, the better.
We may not incorporate every suggestion, but your suggestions may spark an idea that we can build off of. This brainstorming portion of our project is extremely important. There are always so many good ideas. In previous threads, you can see how the ideas blossom into the project. Some ideas are super cool, and yet, just a bit out of our reach, but they may lead to things we never thought of, and create something very special in the project. I'm making notes and will post up ideas for the kids to see next week when they come in. They will help build off of your ideas. Already, I'm thinking maybe the NGAD might end up being a whole plane, and not just a nose? I think we can hang it up against the wall to the left and behind the F-22. It won't be the same scale as the F-22, but could be pretty amazing. We may be taking on too much with that. Not sure yet. I guess we will see how it goes, and what students I have interested in this. |
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