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Quoted: Gotta live these videos where the imagery has precisely jack-shit to do with the story. Talks about fire extinguishers and the video is showing flame throwers. I find it easier to watch these videos with my eyes closed. View Quote Well, the whole story is bullshit, so the unrelated clips are least offensive part. |
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Quoted: Holy fuck, imagine seeing something like this..... "Further tests were conducted at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida, from 1 August 1959, using RB-69A, 54-4307, a CIA P2V-7U, according to an agency document.[2] After experiments with instrumented dummies, Fulton continued to experiment with live pigs, as pigs have nervous systems close to humans. Lifted off the ground, the pig began to spin as it flew through the air at 125 miles per hour (200 km/h). It arrived on board uninjured but in a disoriented state. When it recovered, it attacked the crew.[3] " View Quote Holy shit....... PIGS ON A MOTHERFUCKING PLANE! |
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Quoted: Holy shit....... PIGS ON A MOTHERFUCKING PLANE! View Quote Pigs loose on USS John F Kennedy 1986 |
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Quoted: Gunners piloting a crippled B-17 to a landing sounds far fetched. View Quote My father was going to be a B17 pilot and had completed his training. He buzzed a car outside the Baimbridge GA AAF. Turned out to be the post commander. He was busted and became a B17 bombadier. I can see something similar for a gunner. FWIW: They were taught how to lead a moving target by shooting skeet from the back of a moving pickup. |
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Quoted: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulton_surface-to-air_recovery_system There's a real-life demo of it in the John Wayne vietnam movie The Green Berets. View Quote And at the end of Thunderball. fulton recovery system |
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View Quote What was total deaths accured due to this flaw? |
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I think the 8th Airforce had more casualties than the Marines in WW2.
dangerous business precision daylight bombing.. |
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Quoted: It definitely didn’t happen that way. Maybe one of the gunners was an experienced multi engine pilot who had lost his wings because of health issues, or for some infraction? I’d like to read the real story, if anyone has it. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Amazing story, gunners flew it back and landed, would like to see a movie on this It definitely didn’t happen that way. Maybe one of the gunners was an experienced multi engine pilot who had lost his wings because of health issues, or for some infraction? I’d like to read the real story, if anyone has it. Not sure why you think that. Here is a story about the tail gunner that was on the plane. It mentions the incident, but not in detail. On a Wing and Several Prayers: The Story of a B-17 Tailgunner |
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Quoted: Gunners piloting a crippled B-17 to a landing sounds far fetched. View Quote My grandfather was a flight engineer in a ferrying squadron. He was trained to fly and seemed to have spent more time piloting B-17s, 18s, 24s, A-26s, C-47s... than sitting in his gunners position. One of his wishes as he was dying was that we didn’t talk about him being a pilot at his funeral. As passionate as he was about flying and as much as he flew, he was never an officer and didn’t want people thinking he was. |
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Re the narrators accent - he sounds Indian or Pakistani heritage born in UK.
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Quoted: It definitely didn’t happen that way. Maybe one of the gunners was an experienced multi engine pilot who had lost his wings because of health issues, or for some infraction? I’d like to read the real story, if anyone has it. View Quote On a related note... An old coworker was a helicopter mechanic in Vietnam. He claimed that he would go up with the crews and they taught him how to fly them. I've always wondered if he was full of shit, or they actually had that much leeway in theater. It kinda made me think of Iron Eagle and the sheer amount of suspension of disbelief required to watch it, lol. The same guy grew up working West Texas ranches and said that most of them had single engine planes due to the remoteness. He said that one of his bosses taught him to fly and he make runs to town before he was 18. I can buy that story... |
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Quoted: Not sure why you think that. Here is a story about the tail gunner that was on the plane. It mentions the incident, but not in detail. On a Wing and Several Prayers: The Story of a B-17 Tailgunner View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Amazing story, gunners flew it back and landed, would like to see a movie on this It definitely didn’t happen that way. Maybe one of the gunners was an experienced multi engine pilot who had lost his wings because of health issues, or for some infraction? I’d like to read the real story, if anyone has it. Not sure why you think that. Here is a story about the tail gunner that was on the plane. It mentions the incident, but not in detail. On a Wing and Several Prayers: The Story of a B-17 Tailgunner C’mon Man. . If you’re gonna Post it, take the time to Read it. The truth is often more interesting than fiction. The Navigator and the Bombardier bailed out. |
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Quoted: On a related note... An old coworker was a helicopter mechanic in Vietnam. He claimed that he would go up with the crews and they taught him how to fly them. I've always wondered if he was full of shit, or they actually had that much leeway in theater. It kinda made me think of Iron Eagle and the sheer amount of suspension of disbelief required to watch it, lol. The same guy grew up working West Texas ranches and said that most of them had single engine planes due to the remoteness. He said that one of his bosses taught him to fly and he make runs to town before he was 18. I can buy that story... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: It definitely didn’t happen that way. Maybe one of the gunners was an experienced multi engine pilot who had lost his wings because of health issues, or for some infraction? I’d like to read the real story, if anyone has it. On a related note... An old coworker was a helicopter mechanic in Vietnam. He claimed that he would go up with the crews and they taught him how to fly them. I've always wondered if he was full of shit, or they actually had that much leeway in theater. It kinda made me think of Iron Eagle and the sheer amount of suspension of disbelief required to watch it, lol. The same guy grew up working West Texas ranches and said that most of them had single engine planes due to the remoteness. He said that one of his bosses taught him to fly and he make runs to town before he was 18. I can buy that story... People always spout nonsense like that. I guess it’s the romance and glamour of Aviation. Probably, he did get a little stick time. I had my kids “flying” small jets and turboprops when they were 5. They enjoyed it. Good times all around. |
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Quoted: C’mon Man. . If you’re gonna Post it, take the time to Read it. The truth is often more interesting than fiction. The Navigator and the Bombardier bailed out. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Amazing story, gunners flew it back and landed, would like to see a movie on this It definitely didn’t happen that way. Maybe one of the gunners was an experienced multi engine pilot who had lost his wings because of health issues, or for some infraction? I’d like to read the real story, if anyone has it. Not sure why you think that. Here is a story about the tail gunner that was on the plane. It mentions the incident, but not in detail. On a Wing and Several Prayers: The Story of a B-17 Tailgunner C’mon Man. . If you’re gonna Post it, take the time to Read it. The truth is often more interesting than fiction. The Navigator and the Bombardier bailed out. I did read it. So what is the problem? |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Amazing story, gunners flew it back and landed, would like to see a movie on this It definitely didn’t happen that way. Maybe one of the gunners was an experienced multi engine pilot who had lost his wings because of health issues, or for some infraction? I’d like to read the real story, if anyone has it. Not sure why you think that. Here is a story about the tail gunner that was on the plane. It mentions the incident, but not in detail. On a Wing and Several Prayers: The Story of a B-17 Tailgunner C’mon Man. . If you’re gonna Post it, take the time to Read it. The truth is often more interesting than fiction. The Navigator and the Bombardier bailed out. I did read it. So what is the problem? You glossed over it, like you glossed over my response. It was The Navigator and the Bombardier who bailed out. Contrary to what the gonzo clickbait video said, the Pilots were there the whole time. |
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Quoted: You glossed over it, like you glossed over my response. It was The Navigator and the Bombardier who bailed out. Contrary to what the gonzo clickbait video said, the Pilots were there the whole time. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Amazing story, gunners flew it back and landed, would like to see a movie on this It definitely didn’t happen that way. Maybe one of the gunners was an experienced multi engine pilot who had lost his wings because of health issues, or for some infraction? I’d like to read the real story, if anyone has it. Not sure why you think that. Here is a story about the tail gunner that was on the plane. It mentions the incident, but not in detail. On a Wing and Several Prayers: The Story of a B-17 Tailgunner C’mon Man. . If you’re gonna Post it, take the time to Read it. The truth is often more interesting than fiction. The Navigator and the Bombardier bailed out. I did read it. So what is the problem? You glossed over it, like you glossed over my response. It was The Navigator and the Bombardier who bailed out. Contrary to what the gonzo clickbait video said, the Pilots were there the whole time. Yup, bit of a derp moment on my part. I was thinking you were disputing something else about what happened. |
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Video was kind of fucky with non-matching stock footage. One of my pet peeves.
I actually think the narrator has a speech impediment. It's distracting. |
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Quoted: Well no, not really. The front was added so that there was MORE firepower up front , not because the dorsal and ventral turrets couldn't cover it (the dorsal and "ball" turret were tasked with 360° defense). The rate of closure from an enemy fighter from the front was very fast and the bomber needed to throw more lead to the 12 O'clock (11-1 O'Clock) in order to fend off the bomber killers. The 9, 3, and 6 all had more time to get shots on target thanks to a slower merge. The US did the same thing to the B24's. My g'pa claimed the B24D was easier to fly than the H/J model due to that front turret creating some wonky air flow traits. He only flew the later models when ferrying them from base to base on the mainland, otherwise his B24 days were mostly B24D and C87. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: The chin turret was added because the German pilots found that in a direct head on attack, neither the belly turret nor the dorsal turret could target them. Well no, not really. The front was added so that there was MORE firepower up front , not because the dorsal and ventral turrets couldn't cover it (the dorsal and "ball" turret were tasked with 360° defense). The rate of closure from an enemy fighter from the front was very fast and the bomber needed to throw more lead to the 12 O'clock (11-1 O'Clock) in order to fend off the bomber killers. The 9, 3, and 6 all had more time to get shots on target thanks to a slower merge. The US did the same thing to the B24's. My g'pa claimed the B24D was easier to fly than the H/J model due to that front turret creating some wonky air flow traits. He only flew the later models when ferrying them from base to base on the mainland, otherwise his B24 days were mostly B24D and C87. Recently I saw a show about the Memphis Belle restoration. They wanted to reinstall the 50s in the nose but the mounts were missing and no drawings survived. They were able to find some old video which gave them enough detail to fabricate them. |
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Great vid. Thanks.
It wasn't unusual for a flight engineer or navigator to have been wash outs from flight school. My uncle as an squid airplane mechanic was allowed to taxi airplanes. They trusted him that much. He later became a pilot. |
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Boeing B17 La Ferté-Alais low pass |
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Quoted: Washed out pilot trainees were shifted into bombardier and navigator training (which involved gunnery training), and I suppose a guy who also washed out of nav school with that gunnery training already under his belt was almost certain to be made a gunner, so I think it's likely a few gunners had some flight training. Probably single engine though. Link View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Washed out pilot trainees were shifted into bombardier and navigator training (which involved gunnery training), and I suppose a guy who also washed out of nav school with that gunnery training already under his belt was almost certain to be made a gunner, so I think it's likely a few gunners had some flight training. Probably single engine though. Link As it turned out, it was also the end of a dream for two more cadets from my room, so a total of three out of the eight of us washed out at that time. We assumed that was also the end of cadet training, and it would be regular army for us, which was a very depressing thought. But a day or so later I was requested to report to headquarters, where I was advised I had also passed the tests for navigator and bombardier training, and given a choice which I would like. Without thinking, I said Navigator, (which was a strange choice for someone who was always lost during flight training), and shortly received orders to report to Selman Field, LA. I was still an Aviation Cadet.... I arrived at Selman Field in July 1943, and reported to my barracks. Much to my surprise I found out that all the cadets in my barracks were washed out would-be pilots. This was second choice for all of them. These were the most pissed off guys in the US Army Air Corps, greatly in need of attitude adjustment. It turned out that most of the men in the other barracks were also washed out pilot trainees. We began to wonder if they didn't flunk a certain percentage just so they would have enough navigators or bombardiers. We started Navigation Preflight training, but in short order the powers that be realized that we had just gone through that in pilot training, and decided that all future navigators should learn how to handle a 50 caliber aerial machine gun. So we had hardly had time to mess up our cots at Selman when we were transferred to Tyndall Field in Florida for aerial gunnery school. When we first started training, most of us had never shot any kind of a gun before in our lives. So we started with 22 caliber rifles shooting at moving targets, like at the amusement parks. From there we went to moving targets on a rifle range. Then we learned to shoot the 50 caliber machine guns at stationary and moving targets on the ground. In the air we could only use 30 caliber guns because the training planes couldn't carry the larger 50 caliber units plus 4-5 trainees. From these planes we practiced on air targets being towed by another plane. Needless to say, these were attached as far away from the towing plane as physically possible. Each student had his own colored ammunition, so after each flight we could tell who had how many hits. We also trained on stationary targets in the ocean from a two-seater trainer with the machine gun mounted on a semicircular ring type arrangement in the rear seat. This ring was so set up that the machine gun could not be positioned in such a way as to shoot off the wings or tails of the trainer. I always wondered which came first, the design of the mount or an indication of the need for such a design. We also trained on the ground with shotguns mounted on an airplane type turret, doing skeet and trap style shooting. We had two houses releasing the clay pigeons, one low and one high. This was the most fun of all, and I got quite good at it, in spite of a rather frightening incident. The turrets we used had Plexiglas shields, usually broken to some degree, to protect us from flying pigeon pieces. One day when I hit one of the birds, a shard came through one of the holes and hit me in the eye. When I opened my eye, I couldn't see anything out of it. It was like staring at an opaque white sheet with no objects or details on it. I was terrified. I dismounted the turret and ran to the range office and told him what had happened. He immediately called an ambulance, which whisked me off to the hospital. There they found that the piece had hit the eyeball, but fortunately just missed the pupil, so they felt no permanent damage was done. Later that day I began to see about half of what I was looking at, and within a couple days had regained by sight completely. But that was a very panicky time, not only because of the fear of losing my sight, but maybe more so fearing it would be the end of my military career. On the skeet range we also used jeeps, holding a shotgun while standing in a supporting ring. When we were using vehicles, we were told to only load one shell at a time. However, when no instructor was riding along we'd put in 2-3 rounds, and rapid fire at the same target, really pulverizing it. Of course the instructors could hear what was going on, but no one would ever admit to it. We were scored on our performances in each day's training, either by an instructor if one was present, or by keeping our own score. The base had a monthly newsletter, and the last page was devoted to Gunner of the Month, including a picture. The last month we were there, there was a close match for this honor between another trainee and me. However, the final tally gave it to him, and I can still remember how disappointed I was. (snip) I knew a guy who was a flight crew member in a cargo plane in the Korean war, just a 18 year old probie. Came under attack and he landed the plane with no training and two dead pilots, they sent him to flight school and he did Close Air Support in F-4's in Vietnam, by all accounts he was one of the craziest MF's out there. Not afraid to get up close to Charlie. The grunts loved him for it. His nickname was "Pile'em'up. He paid for it with his health, ended up with fucked up lungs from the constant rapid changes in altitude and the poor oxygen regulation systems in use at the time, basically burned his lungs on oxygen every time he did an attack dive from high altitude. (That's my understanind based on my medical knowledge and his poor description) I think he had to eject twice using the Artillery shell system. Amazingly I think they let him keep flying afterwards, I'd read it was one time and you were done. (It's been ~5 years since I talked to him, so my memory is fuzzy) |
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Quoted: My father was going to be a B17 pilot and had completed his training. He buzzed a car outside the Baimbridge GA AAF. Turned out to be the post commander. He was busted and became a B17 bombadier. I can see something similar for a gunner. FWIW: They were taught how to lead a moving target by shooting skeet from the back of a moving pickup. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Gunners piloting a crippled B-17 to a landing sounds far fetched. My father was going to be a B17 pilot and had completed his training. He buzzed a car outside the Baimbridge GA AAF. Turned out to be the post commander. He was busted and became a B17 bombadier. I can see something similar for a gunner. FWIW: They were taught how to lead a moving target by shooting skeet from the back of a moving pickup. I've seen footage of them riding on trains to do skeet. |
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Quoted: Gunners piloting a crippled B-17 to a landing sounds far fetched. View Quote Not necessarily. Any number of them wound up as gunners because at some point in training they had washed out of flight school. The washout rate was pretty high. Actually so was the kicked out rate. Hand a teenager a hot plane and you KNOW any number of them HAVE to do something foolhardy. |
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Quoted: 10 internet points to anybody who can ID this B17 and its use https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/56078/b17_JPG-1721063.JPG View Quote Special Duties Squadron Fortress III? |
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Quoted: 10 internet points to anybody who can ID this B17 and its use https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/56078/b17_JPG-1721063.JPG View Quote Looks like a Fortress Mk.III, an electronic countermeasures version. |
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Quoted: Grandfather was the ball turret gunner on a B-17F "Baby" flown out of Africa with the 429th Bombardment Squadron, 2nd Bomb Group (Heavy). I have all of his old papers, including his original 50 mission list. Seems relevant. I have pictures of his Fortress that he took showing flak and fighter damage. Entire tail sections shorn off, flaps and ailerons missing, etc, but still being able to land. The B-17 was a beast. https://i.imgur.com/M75ZItc.jpg If it's unreadable, I can upload a higher resolution scan. View Quote Your grandfather's 32'nd mission is interesting. I have visited a bearing factory in Steyr that had the "after" pictures from IIRC 1944 in part of the cafeteria. I have also been to bearing factories in Schweinfurt that were around before the war. |
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Quoted: My father was going to be a B17 pilot and had completed his training. He buzzed a car outside the Baimbridge GA AAF. Turned out to be the post commander. He was busted and became a B17 bombadier. I can see something similar for a gunner. FWIW: They were taught how to lead a moving target by shooting skeet from the back of a moving pickup. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Gunners piloting a crippled B-17 to a landing sounds far fetched. My father was going to be a B17 pilot and had completed his training. He buzzed a car outside the Baimbridge GA AAF. Turned out to be the post commander. He was busted and became a B17 bombadier. I can see something similar for a gunner. FWIW: They were taught how to lead a moving target by shooting skeet from the back of a moving pickup. My FIL was a navigator on a B26 and went to aerial gunnery school. He said LOVED shooting a shotgun from the time he was old enough to shoot one but growing up during the depression there wasn't money for many shotgun shells. Then when he went to the aerial gunnery school they let him shoot ALL the shotgun shells and clay pigeons he wanted and on top of that, they were paying him to do it. He said he was thrilled. |
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Quoted: What about the guy that had to open the capsule to check on the bear?! View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: What about the bears used to test the B-58 escape capsule system? What about the guy that had to open the capsule to check on the bear?! Meh, probably a contractor. |
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