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USA
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Posted: 5/25/2023 6:38:24 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JQ66: There was someone in the DoD/Pentagon in the 1960s who gave the soviets names of aircrew who were briefed in on SIOP, nuclear warfighting plans. So they knew which prisoners and shootdowns they wanted. They were also very interested in Wild Weasel EWOs too i have read. And I think it was more than a "few" aircrew who disappeared into the soviet gulag system for interrogation and disposal. And back to more or less the subject, I've mentioned in such threads before that the old national security journalist Jack Anderson wrote back in the 1980s and maybe after the collapse of the USSR that they had their own atomic demolition weapons obviously, but what happened the the ones they had smuggled into the USA? He said as I recall there were rumored to be ones hidden away on some farms in the upper midwest, Minnesota For one. All they would've had to do was find some commuinst sympathizer farmers, probably not that hard to do in some places, to let them hid the devices in barns or caves on their property. So who/what side got those out? Or did they, and when? Are they sure they got them all? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JQ66: Originally Posted By USMCTanker: During the Vietnam War, Soviet "recovery" teams operated in the NV jungle (without permission of the NV government) in hopes of capturing US pilots who were shot down and survived ejection. The Soviets wanted more information about ECM from RB-66 crews and also wanted to know how the Americans planned to deliver nuclear weapons from tactical aircraft flying at low altitude under radar detection and escape the blast. After the fall of the Soviet Union, Soviet archives were opened up for a brief period of time under Boris Yeltsin. Records were researched and it was found where a few US pilots were captured during the war, transported back to the USSR from NVN/VN, interrogated, and ordered killed via lethal injection at the conclusion of the interrogation process. There was someone in the DoD/Pentagon in the 1960s who gave the soviets names of aircrew who were briefed in on SIOP, nuclear warfighting plans. So they knew which prisoners and shootdowns they wanted. They were also very interested in Wild Weasel EWOs too i have read. And I think it was more than a "few" aircrew who disappeared into the soviet gulag system for interrogation and disposal. And back to more or less the subject, I've mentioned in such threads before that the old national security journalist Jack Anderson wrote back in the 1980s and maybe after the collapse of the USSR that they had their own atomic demolition weapons obviously, but what happened the the ones they had smuggled into the USA? He said as I recall there were rumored to be ones hidden away on some farms in the upper midwest, Minnesota For one. All they would've had to do was find some commuinst sympathizer farmers, probably not that hard to do in some places, to let them hid the devices in barns or caves on their property. So who/what side got those out? Or did they, and when? Are they sure they got them all? For that day... |
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Posted: 5/25/2023 6:52:27 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By feudist: During the Cold War it was speculated widely(not from anyone necessarily in the know) that certain Soviet embassies(DC, London, Paris etc) had small nukes in the basement. For that day... Would that have not been sniffed out? |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 5/25/2023 6:58:40 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Scott_S: Is Pantex nearer Lubbock or Amarillo? If closer to Lubbock I sure blew my chance for a tour when I was at Texas Tech. It is in Borger, TX. Do NOT stop anywhere near the facility, for any reason. |
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BHS
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Posted: 5/25/2023 7:07:20 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kwg020: It's all fun and games until Mohamed walks up to the steps of the Capitol building with his backpack nuke and says "this one is for Allah". Or until Won Hung Low does the same thing and says "Xi would be so proud of me". Kwong |
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BHS
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Posted: 5/25/2023 7:18:02 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bigger_Hammer: PANTEX plant outside of Lubbock Texas. Decommissioned various nuclear weapons to Recycle "Critical National Security Strategic Materials".  @Kobolowsky_TiresBigger_Hammer  A bit further north. Pantex Plant is about 30 miles east of Amarillo TX. |
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BHS
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Posted: 5/25/2023 7:23:31 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 18B30:My I suggest?I was involved with the logistical support of a green light mission while station while at Ft. Devens. It was eye opening to say the least. I do not believe they would have been coming home. I'll defer to our Green Light Team member on the forums if he chooses to jump into this thread.18ZABA66 |
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BHS
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Posted: 5/25/2023 7:34:52 PM EDT
[#7]
A little research says it weighs about 50 lbs.
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BHS
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Posted: 5/25/2023 8:04:22 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BadRREngineer:It is in Borger, TX. Do NOT stop anywhere near the facility, for any reason. You can stop anywhere on the public roadway shoulders although the local LEs may stop to see what you are doing. Anything you can see from the roadway is unclassified. Pantex Plant Location |
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Posted: 5/25/2023 8:18:52 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By high_order1: SADM'S weren't really built for those military characteristics. They had MADM, HADM and TADM for those target folders. I first went into the Nuclear Weapons program in 1958. In the early 1960s I became involved in the B-54 program. Back then, any talk of ADM was considered Top Secret. I still feel uneasy about this whole subject. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 5/25/2023 8:22:54 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By high_order1: It was just a carrying container. There were several, the H-911/912/913/1402, plus an underwater system. 911 is the drum bag you saw in the toy photo, and the model the guy made. 912 is the jump bag with the red lollipop, one is laying on the floor in one museum, and that's what they had for sale on GB (I bid on it). This container was classified at one point because the internal crushable sleeve revealed data on the odd shape of the front case of the system. The 913 was the ruck, and the 1402 was the pelican / rotomolded case with the electrical passthroughs many places use as the picture of the SADM. All of these things fit inside each other. I forget the nomenclature of the UW case. Correct. A dual timer (I can get the MC if it matters) that is set by a single knob. The maximum hours differed over time, because going over time did... a thing. It was manufactured by a well-known clock company that refused to tell me anything about it. It never worked right, and teams were offered a chart. The longer a period of time you set it, the further off the clocks got, and you had to use the chart to tell you the real time arm / time detonate window, because you'd never know the exact ToD. Once either ran down, they set off a wind up generator that provided a small voltage to a junction box, that did two things; one of which was fired a small detonator (I can get that MC also, and the specs of the device if anyone cares). That detonator functioned a special explosive device that provided input to essentially a giant gas grill lighter; if you didn't have that device in the arm well, the system wouldn't fire high order and would dud itself. Hello. I have questions, if you can remember. (I often can't remember what I did last week) There were different models. AEC provided three main types. There were a couple of configurations. There has never been a single publicly released item saying there was a selectable yield unit. There were three yields and a trainer. XM129, XM129E1 & XM129E2, were probably the 54-1; XM159, XM159E1 & XM159E2 were probably the 54-2, and the trainers were the XM130 and XM130E1 were probably the trainers. (XMnnnn were the Army nomenclatures for the systems, X meaning Experimental / not validated as a system). (I think there may have been another set as well). I think from recollection the Navy / MC units were generally the same, but with the addition of the watertight case. I know of four. Three are in museums around the Nevada area, one I think is just the jumpable case, one is the version with the watertight case someone hand painted gold, there is one trainer cutaway in the classified museum, and the fourth is... a round front case version one somewhere in a museum on a mil base, like armor or engineers, I forget now. I really wish there were someone to talk to that really knew this system; 80% of it has been declassed over the years, there are only three things-ish that haven't been released on it. Bugs the shit out of me, but the reticence is because this system design also served as the primary for some multi-stage systems. I think, TSETSE? I forget now, there's no one to talk to about any of this stuff. Scarab, not Tsetse. I'm not sure what else Scarab was used in. W54 was (nuclear) Falcon, SADM and Davy Crocket. Tsetse was much larger, like 15kt, was used in several weapons like B43 an B57. The reference I have gives W54 as a LANL adaptation of the LLNL W51 (MGM-29). It describes it as a boosted Pu implosion, 3 mods produced with 1700 pits made 50-59lbs. Yields listed "10t & 20t, 250t, variable: 10t-1kt" and despite it's extensive discussion of strategic warheads, it is light on the lighter warheads. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 5/25/2023 8:26:43 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tuco22: Yeah, i meant is there anything measurable above background like a smoke detector or fresh 238, only wondering cuz it's strapped to your back. probably use oralloy like the sub carried tomahawk tlam ns. keep the kids that bunk with em from having glow in the dark nads. or maybe they just figured you were going to become fallout anyway |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 5/25/2023 8:39:46 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tspike: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/4164/SN_jpg-2828061.JPG wow! how did you get a diagram of the Russian suitcase nuke. looks like boris is going somewhere special. this thread has "when Johnny comes marching home again" stuck in my head |
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Posted: 5/25/2023 9:05:37 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Pantexan: You can stop anywhere on the public roadway shoulders although the local LEs may stop to see what you are doing. Anything you can see from the roadway is unclassified. https://pantex.energy.gov/sites/default/files/Visitor_Info.pdf Pantex Plant Location Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Pantexan: You can stop anywhere on the public roadway shoulders although the local LEs may stop to see what you are doing. Anything you can see from the roadway is unclassified. https://pantex.energy.gov/sites/default/files/Visitor_Info.pdf Pantex Plant Location  Originally Posted By Neopo8: I first went into the Nuclear Weapons program in 1958. In the early 1960s I became involved in the B-54 program. Back then, any talk of ADM was considered Top Secret. I still feel uneasy about this whole subject. First - if no one ever tells you, thank you for your sacrifice. You were in during the period of 'spalling and exudate'; not even in the ball park of the wooden bomb concept. Second - believe me when I tell you I can appreciate your unease. I've literally seen grown men weep at how some of this data is now available. People used to get severely jacked up and careers ruined over even obliquely referring to specials. It still happens, but so much time has passed, and the USG has declassed so, so many things now. Only thing on the 54 that hasn't been declassed is the NEMO. I'm honestly not certain if it is not because there are no documents left that discuss it. Mound doesn't even really mention it, and they have released thousands of pages of daily production records. Originally Posted By TheAvatar9265ft: Scarab, not Tsetse. Unless you have something from AEC/ERDA stating different, SCARAB was a codeword component of the system. TSETSE was the US codeword for the system; it is believed that the UK equivalent was WEE GWEN. I had a couple of documents that discussed certain types of testing where a 'wooden SCARAB' was used in place of the live item. I'm not sure what else Scarab was used in. W54 was (nuclear) Falcon, SADM and Davy Crocket. The TSETSE NEP is currently theorized to be used as the primary in several followon systems, there is a guy that really ran down that rabbit hole, and compared kT outputs of test shots, paying closer attention to fizzle shots of staged devices and test articles. He came to the conclusion that it was the same system. Tsetse was much larger, like 15kt, was used in several weapons like B43 an B57. I agree that it was used in several other systems, but with boosting and changes to the neutron generation was how it got those yields. The reference I have gives W54 as a LANL adaptation of the LLNL W51 (MGM-29). It describes it as a boosted Pu implosion, 3 mods produced with 1700 pits made 50-59lbs. Yields listed "10t & 20t, 250t, variable: 10t-1kt" and despite it's extensive discussion of strategic warheads, it is light on the lighter warheads. There was never, ever a single variable yield 54. There was no room in there for it. It wasn't boosted; there are no publicly known records of LLC workups for the SADM. It was Pu fueled, and spherical. I'm not coming off the source unless you have something good to trade. Far as the LANL / LLNL part, that is a fascinating part of an already fascinating history. LLNL shouldn't have been made, failed quite regularly at the beginning, almost got shut down, and then created the most novel systems ever put into the US arsenal. LANL = 'round is a beautiful thing' Sorry if I come off like an ass. I don't mean it. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 5/25/2023 9:27:41 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By high_order1: Sorry if I come off like an ass. I don't mean it. Not at all! I greatly appreciate your reply. You live in it. I merely studied as an interested student of nuclear history. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/25/2023 9:28:07 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Finslayer83: Would that have not been sniffed out? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Finslayer83: Originally Posted By feudist: During the Cold War it was speculated widely(not from anyone necessarily in the know) that certain Soviet embassies(DC, London, Paris etc) had small nukes in the basement. For that day... Would that have not been sniffed out? Could it have been done in the 50s? Could a device be shielded enough in a diplomatic cargo? I have no earthly idea. Anyone? |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 5/25/2023 11:13:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: YankeeDog357]
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By high_order1: Thank you. That squares up with my research, including the fact there were he trainers (many say there were none). From Sandia's perspective, water was a *huge* deal. They could not mate the fiberglass front case to the metal rear case in a way that it would be environmentally secure at altitude and temperature to guarantee it would be safe for worldwide employment. At the end, they issued an alt that removed the plane wave generator from the individual units and made special cases for them under separate lock and key; they found out that the combination dial lock they were using for positive control of several systems had a peculiar failure mode, and places were finding them 'unlocked '. Somewhere I have a mid 80's copy of the Group-generated SOP for SADM. I was, like with many things, super stoked to be given it; only to find it not terribly interesting from a technical perspective. Did they ever teach a wireless command detonation system to you? SADM could be timer, wireless, or RF commanded, but I got people arguing with me on that back in the day when I was trying to puzzle it out. We had a pile of technical manuals we had to k ow and were tested on. But I don’t recollect an SOP. We didn’t put much stock in SOPs of any sort in any case. Teams are pretty independent minded about that sort of thing. Neither do I remember the unit having a provision for remote detonation of any sort. It had a mechanical timer of some sort and that was it. But I can guarantee there was absolutely no way for it to become “accidentally “ unlocked. Oh. And understand that we had zero knowledge of its construction or other technical aspects. We knew how to set it off and that’s about it. |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 5/25/2023 11:27:57 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By feudist: I'm curious about that myself. You would think certainly at some point. When did detection get good enough? Could it have been done in the 50s? Could a device be shielded enough in a diplomatic cargo? I have no earthly idea. Anyone? So what if they detected them. Embassies are sovereign territory. |
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Posted: 5/25/2023 11:30:10 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ludder093: For a while there people went crazy and made all kinds of shit they shouldn't have. Like a nuke grenade? Don’t think it was ever built but it was on the table for a while. |
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Posted: 5/25/2023 11:46:39 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tuco22: Dang, do they wear any sort of dosimetry? No Dosimeter worn by anyone. @Tuco22. The air force and military in general really don't care about the troops. |
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Posted: 5/25/2023 11:49:46 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Neopo8: I first went into the Nuclear Weapons program in 1958. In the early 1960s I became involved in the B-54 program. Back then, any talk of ADM was considered Top Secret. I still feel uneasy about this whole subject. Holy crap. My math says you are at least 85 years old |
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Posted: 5/26/2023 12:12:40 AM EDT
[#21]
Speaking of Russian Man Portable Nukes...
A Great Cold War / Spy flick is "The Fourth Protocol". Soviet Operatives smuggle a nuclear weapon onto an American Airbase in England with the plan to detonate it to make it seem like an "American Accident" and cause Western rejection of basing nuclear weapons in Europe & assist Labor (Socialists) in an upcoming English Election. Pierce Brosnan is the Soviet KGB "Jakob Bondski" Catch it sometime - It's very good! Bigger_Hammer
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NV, USA
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Posted: 5/26/2023 1:10:21 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By high_order1: forget now, there's no one to talk to about any of this stuff. Perhaps here? https://www.reddit.com/r/nuclearweapons/ |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 5/26/2023 1:56:20 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bigger_Hammer: Speaking of Russian Man Portable Nukes... A Great Cold War / Spy flick is "The Fourth Protocol". Soviet Operatives smuggle a nuclear weapon onto an American Airbase in England with the plan to detonate it to make it seem like an "American Accident" and cause Western rejection of basing nuclear weapons in Europe & assist Labor (Socialists) in an upcoming English Election. Pierce Brosnan is the Soviet KGB "Jakob Bondski" Catch it sometime - It's very good! Bigger_Hammer Awesome movie  The Fourth Protocol | 1987 | Full HD Movie | Michael Caine | Pierce Brosnan | Frederick Forsyth |
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Posted: 5/26/2023 8:45:14 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By s707bw: We did not lose any of them. But some of them 4, went to Israel. That came straight from a guy from DOE/ NNSA. HE WAS HIGH ENOUGH UP IN THE ORGANIZATION THAT I BELIEVE HIM. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By s707bw: Originally Posted By LordEC911: Originally Posted By GlocksareGood: Did they make one with a yield above 1kton? Wiki says that was the max. I thought I had read something about them having a larger yield, like in the 5-10kt range, but I would trust wiki over my memory. There was also rumors about how we lost a number of them, some said it was half a dozen and others said it was closer to 20. One of the fictional what-if Cold War books I read discussed using W33 based nukes that were loaded in vehicles. That came straight from a guy from DOE/ NNSA. HE WAS HIGH ENOUGH UP IN THE ORGANIZATION THAT I BELIEVE HIM. I’m sorry but that’s not accurate. |
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Posted: 5/26/2023 9:02:39 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By YankeeDog357: So what if they detected them. Embassies are sovereign territory. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By YankeeDog357: Originally Posted By feudist: I'm curious about that myself. You would think certainly at some point. When did detection get good enough? Could it have been done in the 50s? Could a device be shielded enough in a diplomatic cargo? I have no earthly idea. Anyone? So what if they detected them. Embassies are sovereign territory. LOL. Detection means we would know and then conduct MASINT. MASINT would tell us a lot about what exactly they had. |
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Posted: 5/26/2023 9:16:22 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Finslayer83: @mikejga A question for you. Was this prechamber an actual bunker? If so was it stored there or you guys had to emplace? Or did you roll out to “X” on a map, plug it in and then smoke cigs? It was a rectangular piece of steel in the road that we were to defend at all cost and could not pull back till a COE officer arrived with a special package. We could only withdraw when he gave the order. The special package was probably stored at Messau. There were (still are) round manhole type covers set in choke points with the "cheese charges" that looked like old wheels of cheese stored nearby. German NG would emplace and set them off. If you know where to look there were prechambers built into Autobahn over passes. |
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Posted: 5/26/2023 9:50:37 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MikeJGA: It was a rectangular piece of steel in the road that we were to defend at all cost and could not pull back till a COE officer arrived with a special package. We could only withdraw when he gave the order. The special package was probably stored at Messau. There were (still are) round manhole type covers set in choke points with the "cheese charges" that looked like old wheels of cheese stored nearby. German NG would emplace and set them off. If you know where to look there were prechambers built into Autobahn over passes. TY. As a child of the 80's I recall numerous "military books" which showed limited pics of "bunkers" deep in the pine forests of Germany. For some reason I've been fascinated with cold war era bunkers, complexes, etc... Not sure how related to the ADM program, but maybe some of you have been to places like this (Fischbach, Germany):     Love seeing pics on these old sites. If any of you recall cool complexes like this in W. Germany, let me know and I'll research for pics! GAMA sites are also badass. |
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Posted: 5/26/2023 1:14:03 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By feudist: I'm curious about that myself. You would think certainly at some point. When did detection get good enough? Could it have been done in the 50s? Could a device be shielded enough in a diplomatic cargo? I have no earthly idea. Anyone? It is publicly known that there are preferred radionuclides for nuclear weapon systems. Two are U235 and Pu239 . Neither of these emit a great deal of radiation in most geometries suitable for nuclear weapon systems. What does emit from these can be stopped by very well known and public means. People think of diplomatic mail as fancy pouches, but my understanding is that pretty much anything you want could be a 'diplomatic pouch', you just put the correct label and info on there. Taking these two things, it seems plausible that the commies could ship a diplomatic steamer trunk pouch needing a forklift to bring inside. Also, knowing the size of the SADM, and knowing that everyone stole restricted data on how these were built, it is fair to say that many places could theoretically build one that small as well. There have been public discussions of how certain countries penetrated other countries embassies. All that to say, without benefit of actual knowledge, the russians/chinese/others could probably have a nuc in their embassy basement, but I bet if they did, USG knows and has them somehow checkmated, or they fucking stole it and it's now in the classified nuc museum as a fuck you to them. (shrugs) |
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Posted: 5/26/2023 1:29:13 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By YankeeDog357: We had a pile of technical manuals we had to k ow and were tested on. But I don't recollect an SOP. We didn't put much stock in SOPs of any sort in any case. Teams are pretty independent minded about that sort of thing. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By YankeeDog357: We had a pile of technical manuals we had to k ow and were tested on. But I don't recollect an SOP. We didn't put much stock in SOPs of any sort in any case. Teams are pretty independent minded about that sort of thing. Thanks! Pretty crazy to think y'all could be 'independently minded' with a nuc, but it wouldn't surprise me a bit. Neither do I remember the unit having a provision for remote detonation of any sort. It had a mechanical timer of some sort and that was it. All of the units released to the field had a J1 jack that was probably never used, but this jack allowed for that.  Attached File But I can guarantee there was absolutely no way for it to become "accidentally " unlocked. You guys weren't probably read onto it. They used a Sergeant and Greenleaf combo dial on the cover. This was also used as the Kennedy lock on 3-4 other systems. .mil found some of these unlocked after being transported by air. Sandia was able to replicate what happened using a Craftsman belt sander strapped to the units and driving them on a bumpy test track. Basically the disc pack could be vibrated into certain configurations due to being weighted off balance by the flys. This configuration also corresponded to certain 'transit codes' that were installed into those systems. There's a declassed doc floating around out there that discusses this, I don't have it in hand. I first learned of it listening to vets talking and also dismissed it as alcohol-induced fish tales, until I found that document. Oh. And understand that we had zero knowledge of its construction or other technical aspects. We knew how to set it off and that's about it. some of you guys figured it out by osmosis! lol I asked one if he realized he was more valuable than the bomb at that point, and he got kind of cloudy for a moment. LOOK MAN, ALL I KNOW IS I TURN A COUPLE OF THINGS THEN BEAT FEETS! SWEAR! (It really surprised me that ARPA sent people with nuclear design knowledge into vietnam, though. What a BAD day that could have been.) |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/26/2023 1:33:48 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BadRREngineer: It is in Borger, TX. Do NOT stop anywhere near the facility, for any reason. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BadRREngineer: Originally Posted By Scott_S: Is Pantex nearer Lubbock or Amarillo? If closer to Lubbock I sure blew my chance for a tour when I was at Texas Tech. It is in Borger, TX. Do NOT stop anywhere near the facility, for any reason. I can't find the news story anymore, naturally, but didn't the security team end up killing a trespasser and holding the other one for arrest, a couple of years ago? The trespassers weren't acting innocently or like they were merely lost.. Much different reaction than when those nuns ended up penetrating several security layers at Y-12, but not actually making entry into the building. I could be conflating the memory with another event, tbf.. |
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Posted: 5/26/2023 1:36:23 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By burkeva: LOL. Detection means we would know and then conduct MASINT. MASINT would tell us a lot about what exactly they had. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By burkeva: LOL. Detection means we would know and then conduct MASINT. MASINT would tell us a lot about what exactly they had. Originally Posted By MikeJGA: It was a rectangular piece of steel in the road that we were to defend at all cost and could not pull back till a COE officer arrived with a special package. We could only withdraw when he gave the order. The special package was probably stored at Messau. There were (still are) round manhole type covers set in choke points with the "cheese charges" that looked like old wheels of cheese stored nearby. German NG would emplace and set them off. If you know where to look there were prechambers built into Autobahn over passes. I had forgotten the 'cheese charge' part lol. Here is a decent article I went and just found on the topic: google translated article from German Correct me, but: 1 It was hush hush even though it was pretty obvious what sites were most likely to benefit from some canned sunshine over conventional because there was no nearby magazine 2 Only certain Engineers knew the actual sites, not even the Germans were briefed; training sites were not the actual sites 3 It was mainly because the Germans balked at having nucs in-country period, much less digging holes they thought would lead to sliming large swaths of their countryside if the US did use them 4 USG has never officially released these positions, much less prepositioning nuc rounds (except Jupiter and... some arty??) Dunno, I am running behind today so sort of off the cuff here. |
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Posted: 5/26/2023 1:48:06 PM EDT
[#32]
Thread sucks without pics!
 Attached FileThis is how small that fucking thing was. That is the nuclear explosive package PLUS the power supply PLUS the timing device PLUS some other bits and pieces to make it more amenable to rough handling.  Attached File58 pounds in that particular configuration. Video says so, but look at dude. He's not yoked but he's lifting it in a carrying case one handed. Here's the how-to video:  Special Atomic Demolition Munition SADM (funny story, there is a person who claims to be the FOIA guy for this. What his hubris would not allow is that about 8 of us had already asked for it years before, he just swooped in at the last minute, and then put it on blast. lol) Here's some light reading on the topic. It's safe, not a .gov link, so probably not going to be on any lists: History of the Mark 54 (sanitized) This is the version with the last revision watertight case (the original case had two big fucking handles on the top, and looked like a trash can)  Attached FileIt may also be the higher yield variant. One day I will pilgrimage to there and yoink that lid off so I can touch it and see if I can open it lol (I realize it says 'mod 1', but, someone also painted it gold with a brush, so I am betting the dudes that demilled it for a display also threw the stenciling on there, too.) |
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Posted: 5/26/2023 1:50:50 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote Historylol scroll down, you'll see my user handle in there arguing thanks though! |
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Posted: 5/26/2023 1:56:07 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JQ66: There was someone in the DoD/Pentagon in the 1960s who gave the soviets names of aircrew who were briefed in on SIOP, nuclear warfighting plans. So they knew which prisoners and shootdowns they wanted. They were also very interested in Wild Weasel EWOs too i have read. And I think it was more than a "few" aircrew who disappeared into the soviet gulag system for interrogation and disposal. And back to more or less the subject, I've mentioned in such threads before that the old national security journalist Jack Anderson wrote back in the 1980s and maybe after the collapse of the USSR that they had their own atomic demolition weapons obviously, but what happened the the ones they had smuggled into the USA? He said as I recall there were rumored to be ones hidden away on some farms in the upper midwest, Minnesota For one. All they would've had to do was find some commuinst sympathizer farmers, probably not that hard to do in some places, to let them hid the devices in barns or caves on their property. So who/what side got those out? Or did they, and when? Are they sure they got them all? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JQ66: Originally Posted By USMCTanker: During the Vietnam War, Soviet “recovery” teams operated in the NV jungle (without permission of the NV government) in hopes of capturing US pilots who were shot down and survived ejection. The Soviets wanted more information about ECM from RB-66 crews and also wanted to know how the Americans planned to deliver nuclear weapons from tactical aircraft flying at low altitude under radar detection and escape the blast. After the fall of the Soviet Union, Soviet archives were opened up for a brief period of time under Boris Yeltsin. Records were researched and it was found where a few US pilots were captured during the war, transported back to the USSR from NVN/VN, interrogated, and ordered killed via lethal injection at the conclusion of the interrogation process. There was someone in the DoD/Pentagon in the 1960s who gave the soviets names of aircrew who were briefed in on SIOP, nuclear warfighting plans. So they knew which prisoners and shootdowns they wanted. They were also very interested in Wild Weasel EWOs too i have read. And I think it was more than a "few" aircrew who disappeared into the soviet gulag system for interrogation and disposal. And back to more or less the subject, I've mentioned in such threads before that the old national security journalist Jack Anderson wrote back in the 1980s and maybe after the collapse of the USSR that they had their own atomic demolition weapons obviously, but what happened the the ones they had smuggled into the USA? He said as I recall there were rumored to be ones hidden away on some farms in the upper midwest, Minnesota For one. All they would've had to do was find some commuinst sympathizer farmers, probably not that hard to do in some places, to let them hid the devices in barns or caves on their property. So who/what side got those out? Or did they, and when? Are they sure they got them all? That person in the DoD should have been executed for treason and every Soviet agent who fell into our hands should have been dangled in front of the Soviets......to be executed unless we got our people back |
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Posted: 5/26/2023 1:58:34 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Krombompulos_Michael: Yes they did. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_ Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Krombompulos_Michael: Originally Posted By ludder093: For a while there people went crazy and made all kinds of shit they shouldn't have. Yes they did. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_  further stated that the Army retired the weapon due to the personnel costs associated with it as well as apparent "great fear that some sergeant would start a nuclear war".[12] |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/26/2023 1:58:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Wineraner]
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By feudist: I'm curious about that myself. You would think certainly at some point. When did detection get good enough? Could it have been done in the 50s? Could a device be shielded enough in a diplomatic cargo? I have no earthly idea. Anyone? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By feudist: Originally Posted By Finslayer83: Originally Posted By feudist: During the Cold War it was speculated widely(not from anyone necessarily in the know) that certain Soviet embassies(DC, London, Paris etc) had small nukes in the basement. For that day... Would that have not been sniffed out? Could it have been done in the 50s? Could a device be shielded enough in a diplomatic cargo? I have no earthly idea. Anyone? I certainly don't know, but my pure WAG is, we can do it with exotic (doesn't detect alpha/beta/gamma, but something weird like muons) remote sensing that lots of water attenuates. I.e., can't find a patrolling SSBN (at least not that way), but can find a large hunk of fissionable material, even if (modestly) buried. Flying a gravitometer over the suspect building and comparing mass concentrations? OTOH, it could very well be that such basing is a perfectly viable option from a detectability point of view, but no one wants to take the risk of such ever being discovered. They also violate things like the Vienna Convention which helps govern how embassies, consulates, and charge d'affaires work. And since everybody appears capable of (eventually) sticking a spy in everyone else's organizations, the secret would eventually get out to much butthurt. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/26/2023 2:02:12 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bigger_Hammer: Speaking of Russian Man Portable Nukes... A Great Cold War / Spy flick is "The Fourth Protocol". Soviet Operatives smuggle a nuclear weapon onto an American Airbase in England with the plan to detonate it to make it seem like an "American Accident" and cause Western rejection of basing nuclear weapons in Europe & assist Labor (Socialists) in an upcoming English Election. Pierce Brosnan is the Soviet KGB "Jakob Bondski" Catch it sometime - It's very good! Bigger_Hammer The book is much better, not that it should be a surprise. Definitely before Forsyth lost his fastball. (The let's kill all the drug lords one was particularly bad.) Anyway, the smuggling vignettes in TFP are a lot of fun, and very Dogs of War-ish. |
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Posted: 5/26/2023 2:07:52 PM EDT
[#38]
This is the big case I was talking about:
 Attached FileThis is the timer:  Attached FileThis is the Medium ADM, a lot of people get the two mixed up:  Attached FileAnother view, with accessories:  Attached FilePic from a manual demonstrating theoretically how it would be employed:  Attached File |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 5/26/2023 2:09:36 PM EDT
[#39]
I was a 12E10 Atomic Demolitions and Munitions Specialist stationed in Germany in the mid to late 70's. Nuke em till the glow and shoot em in the dark.
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Posted: 5/26/2023 2:10:58 PM EDT
[#40]
Then, here's one that there is very, very little on. This is the one they talked about in the magazine, I am almost positive.
 Attached FileIt's only publicly known as the 'T-4'. I feel pretty confident I know what they built them out of. There are no released images of the system, no manuals, no pubs... no nothing except oblique references to it existing in other declassed publications. Also, USG was so nervous about the SADM, energy was designing one called ADAM to supercede it. No discussion found on that one, either, so no telling if it made it off the drawing board, much less into a ruck sack. There are several others, but I don't want to bore anyone. |
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Posted: 5/26/2023 2:13:26 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By andybtruckin: I was a 12E10 Atomic Demolitions and Munitions Specialist stationed in Germany in the mid to late 70's. Nuke em till the glow and shoot em in the dark. I've collected a ton of photos from that era. (Of them, I have like four where no beer bottles are visible, at any time or location lol)  Attached File |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/26/2023 2:16:29 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By high_order1: This is the big case I was talking about: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/17550/sadm_suitcase_jpg-2829691.JPG This is the timer: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/17550/Screenshot_2023-05-26_131943_jpg-2829692.JPG This is the Medium ADM, a lot of people get the two mixed up: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/17550/Medium_Atomic_Demolition_Munition__with_-2829694.JPG Another view, with accessories: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/17550/440px-Medium_Atomic_Demolition_Munition_-2829697.JPG Pic from a manual demonstrating theoretically how it would be employed: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/17550/MADM_emplacement_jpg-2829699.JPG Wasn't it an issue with the timer that turning the knob past 27 hours did something like either break the timer where it wouldn't go off (No idea if the anti-tamper system could still get it to detonate) or hilariously, cause the timer to greatly accelerate? |
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Posted: 5/26/2023 2:28:45 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wineraner: Wasn't it an issue with the timer that turning the knob past 27 hours did something like either break the timer where it wouldn't go off (No idea if the anti-tamper system could still get it to detonate) or hilariously, cause the timer to greatly accelerate? Turning it too far did a thing, allegedly far as 'antitamper'... not much in the open on the 54's. There was an alleged dud procedure where you fired a small arm into the mouth of the arm well for instant detonation, but I don't know that to be factual. |
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Posted: 5/26/2023 2:48:05 PM EDT
[#44]
A couple pics I snapped about 15 years ago, using my trusty potato phone cam:
 
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Posted: 5/26/2023 3:10:27 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By K30MuleLAR15: No matter what the percentage is from the mineshaft gap our mineshafts have been engineered to be free of the middle class population. The shaft space was to be allocated to the protected classes. However since the protected classes cannot understand normal thinking (c.u.n.t.) the middle class is responsible to continue digging mineshafts so that the protested classes can spend their reparations. What's going on ? |
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Posted: 5/26/2023 3:40:16 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Neopo8: I first went into the Nuclear Weapons program in 1958. In the early 1960s I became involved in the B-54 program. Back then, any talk of ADM was considered Top Secret. I still feel uneasy about this whole subject. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Neopo8: Originally Posted By high_order1: SADM'S weren't really built for those military characteristics. They had MADM, HADM and TADM for those target folders. I first went into the Nuclear Weapons program in 1958. In the early 1960s I became involved in the B-54 program. Back then, any talk of ADM was considered Top Secret. I still feel uneasy about this whole subject. Wow. 
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Posted: 5/26/2023 4:23:34 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By whiskerz: No Dosimeter worn by anyone. @Tuco22. The air force and military in general really don't care about the troops. That's pretty shitty. 
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OH, USA
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Posted: 5/26/2023 5:05:53 PM EDT
[#48]
Scary where we were at for a while.
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Posted: 5/26/2023 5:15:56 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kwg020: It's all fun and games until Mohamed walks up to the steps of the Capitol building with his backpack nuke and says "this one is for Allah". Or until Won Hung Low does the same thing and says "Xi would be so proud of me". kwg If he somehow lived, he would be given a lesser charge than those sightseers on Jan 6. |
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Posted: 5/27/2023 12:11:10 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bigger_Hammer: The Tactical Nuclear Warfare envisioned in the 50's & 60's had a lot of one way trips. Many of the TAC strike aircraft in Europe were tasked with nuclear destruction of various Airbases or SAM facilities (to help the SAC Bombers cross to their targets) Flying very fast & very low, they were to "Toss Bomb" (Lob a nuke in a loop or steep climb). https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Overtheshoulderbomb.jpg https://i.redd.it/ovrxgmyyefe01.jpg If they survived the delivery (and nuclear explosion), they then faced the problem that most of their targets were so deep in the Warsaw Pact that they didn't have enough fuel for a return to base. So "the plan" was they would eject and evade & escape across a nuclear fallout irradiated hostile country / countries that they had recently nuked to eventually make their way to "friendly territory". Basically a T.O.A.D. mission (Take Off And Die). The nuclear scenarios of the 50's & 60's were definitely a "special time". Bigger_Hammer Things stayed that way into the 1980s. F-4s tasked with flying from West Germany to attack Moscow on one-way trips. FB-111s and F-111s with routes into Russia to strike targets and then ditch the plane into a lake. And tankers assigned to refuel B-52s until they only had enough fuel left to get out of the bomber's way before running out of fuel. An all or nothing effort to knock out the Soviet Union lest the war shift to non-nuclear and the US was outnumbered and outgunned conventionally. |
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