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Posted: 1/18/2023 6:58:54 PM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Disagree on the PSA front. The avg person has no clue of how many guns and parts those guys churn out. Also, they didn’t reinvent the wheel, they came in at a lower price than the rest of the market. They didn’t “revolutionize” anything. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: PSA is a perfect example of an American success story. They’ve completely revolutionized the market and as a result, have helped change the entire “assault weapon” political debate by putting so many guns in people’s hands. Holosun, on the other hand, demonstrates everything wrong with much of America today. Holosun puts out a superior product at a very good price. Their design, reticles, battery placement, solar cells, and reliability put US competitors to shame. I’d pay up for a U.S. designed and made brand, but it probably wouldn’t be as good. Disagree on the PSA front. The avg person has no clue of how many guns and parts those guys churn out. Also, they didn’t reinvent the wheel, they came in at a lower price than the rest of the market. They didn’t “revolutionize” anything. I disagree. They revolutionized communications in the industry by actually listening to and interacting with customers, and manufacturing products they asked for. They revolutionized the manner in which to get more guns in to common use by implementing a business model to make their products affordable. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 7:01:13 PM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had a thread about this, but can’t tell you how impressed I am with the Beretta APX A1. Fantastic shooter. Far exceeded expectations. Convince me to sell/trade my 509T. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 7:01:22 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't understand the need for multiple reticles on an unmagnified red dot optic? And is there really a need for a solar panel when an Aimpoint offers 5+ years of battery life? I'm all for innovation but those two things just seem like a gimmick. The other features you listed have been available from Aimpoint offerings for many years. I prefer an Eotech reticle for most shooting, especially on full auto with a subgun, with the ability to switch to just a dot for distance or under NVG's. Is there a need for solar with 5+ year battery life? Maybe not, but the fact is having it is better than not having it. Aimpoint doesn't offer a large windowed dot with an Eotech style reticle. Their optics are MUCH bulkier than an AEMS. Eotech doesn't offer a high battery life optic with their reticle and a low mounting platform for subguns and non-AR platforms. Let's be realistic, Aimpoint and Eotech have offered essentially the same products for the past 20 years. Aimpoint has offered a few different battery options and flavors for placement, but that's about it. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 7:03:44 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I personally don’t like a sight with so many settings, I will never find them all or change something and not be able to get back to it. I like shit simple, that works, every time. (Not saying those others don’t but my holo dot can be a pain to navigate settings) ETA: kind of sad where we are at as consumers. We want every bell and whistle for pennies. THAT sells Good, standard, tried and true doesn’t cut it anymore. Options are great though I’m in this camp. Too many thinks to fidget with when under stress just get in the way. Something that works and dependable is enough for me. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 7:05:32 PM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Companies like Trijicon don't mess up their product line a lot because their customers don't want that. And they know it. Trijicon, Aimpoint, Glock and Colt will be just fine. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 7:14:47 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The consumer market is a secondary concern to a lot of the big legacy cats. Holosun cant sell to the US military so they focus on consumer stuff. Buy from America or buy from China. Being butthurt about it wont change the business model of the legacy companies. I dont blame them at all. Ill continue to buy American. So no Aimpoints for you, then...? |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 7:17:18 PM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They don't have to stop making stuff they already make. Im not buying anymore open emitter RMRs, and they could also offer more LED ACOGs. Primary Arms is probably 2-3 iterations away from surpassing the ACOG anyways, and Trijicon wants $1200 for em. ETA. And the RMRcc is full retard. From the footprint to the adjustment values (and open emitter). I think they got burned by the Tri-Power and SRS... |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 7:19:40 PM EST
[#8]
From a consumer standpoint, an Aimpoint will remain more future proof and hold its value longer than a thermal/red dot combo. The thermal will become outdated when a newer cheaper model is introduced but the Aimpoint will still be compatible with whatever nods you have in the future.
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Posted: 1/18/2023 7:20:30 PM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. Just buy what you want. The constant lamenting over muh innuvation is so tiresome. Trijicon, Aimpoint, Glock and Colt will be just fine. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Companies like Trijicon don't mess up their product line a lot because their customers don't want that. And they know it. Trijicon, Aimpoint, Glock and Colt will be just fine. Colt? 
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Posted: 1/18/2023 7:22:36 PM EST
[#10]
Features like green reticles, shake awake, solar powered etc are all primed as either a failure point or a gimmick to sell to those unaware.
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Posted: 1/18/2023 7:30:56 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: PA’s Micro Prisms are pretty damn good, not even taking in consideration that they are way cheaper. I was extremely surprised by the glass in the GLx 2.5. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The customers they don't lose, maybe. I own a RM06 and a SRO. I'll almost certainly never buy another RMR unless they update the damn thing or I find one at silly cheap prices. Holosun is absolutely destroying them with real, meaningful design advancements. Sig isn't far behind. I'll probably keep buying ACOGs, though. PA’s Micro Prisms are pretty damn good, not even taking in consideration that they are way cheaper. I was extremely surprised by the glass in the GLx 2.5. I bought one of their 1x prisms, and it's the most disappointing optic I think I've ever bought. Looking through it gives me a headache like I'm wearing the wrong eyeglass prescription or something. Maybe that's just a 1x prism thing or it's not truly 1x, but makes me a little hesitant to try anything else from the brand. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 7:31:29 PM EST
[#12]
How well do Holosuns last after being dropped? (I own some)
RMR’s have a patented design that can take drop after drop and still work. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 7:32:35 PM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Companies like Trijicon don't mess up their product line a lot because their customers don't want that. And they know it. Mostly in agreement here as I really like my ACOGs. But a little reticle innovation would go a long way. -Mike |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 7:35:47 PM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Colt? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Companies like Trijicon don't mess up their product line a lot because their customers don't want that. And they know it. Trijicon, Aimpoint, Glock and Colt will be just fine. Colt? Remington?  |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 7:39:50 PM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Colt? |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 7:41:35 PM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've posted a page long list of all the new guns Colt has released in recent years several times. People just choose to be ignorant and pretend they only make a half dozen guns. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Colt? Colt went through bankruptcy 87 times and then was bought out by CZ. That's not my idea of a success story. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 7:45:33 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m not asking for crazy settings or cheapo Chinese shit. I’m asking for a closed emitter and a RMRcc footprint that big name pistol manufacturers make a footprint for. Most of the market is asking for the same, and it’s not rocket science to deliver it. Trijicon doesn’t because they are obtuse to market demand. I say this as a guy who has spent a bunch of money on their products. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I personally don’t like a sight with so many settings, I will never find them all or change something and not be able to get back to it. I like shit simple, that works, every time. (Not saying those others don’t but my holo dot can be a pain to navigate settings) ETA: kind of sad where we are at as consumers. We want every bell and whistle for pennies. THAT sells Good, standard, tried and true doesn’t cut it anymore. Options are great though I’m not asking for crazy settings or cheapo Chinese shit. I’m asking for a closed emitter and a RMRcc footprint that big name pistol manufacturers make a footprint for. Most of the market is asking for the same, and it’s not rocket science to deliver it. Trijicon doesn’t because they are obtuse to market demand. I say this as a guy who has spent a bunch of money on their products. I can agree with that. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 7:46:37 PM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Colt went through bankruptcy 87 times and then was bought out by CZ. That's not my idea of a success story. They have obviously been poorly managed, but claiming they haven't had very good civilian offerings based on innovation and consumer demand is just flat out bullshit. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 7:52:10 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Features like green reticles, shake awake, solar powered etc are all primed as either a failure point or a gimmick to sell to those unaware. ok, so are they failing or do you assume no one uses their optics? |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 7:56:26 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m not asking for crazy settings or cheapo Chinese shit. I’m asking for a closed emitter and a RMRcc footprint that big name pistol manufacturers make a footprint for. Most of the market is asking for the same, and it’s not rocket science to deliver it. Trijicon doesn’t because they are obtuse to market demand. I say this as a guy who has spent a bunch of money on their products. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I personally don’t like a sight with so many settings, I will never find them all or change something and not be able to get back to it. I like shit simple, that works, every time. (Not saying those others don’t but my holo dot can be a pain to navigate settings) ETA: kind of sad where we are at as consumers. We want every bell and whistle for pennies. THAT sells Good, standard, tried and true doesn’t cut it anymore. Options are great though I’m not asking for crazy settings or cheapo Chinese shit. I’m asking for a closed emitter and a RMRcc footprint that big name pistol manufacturers make a footprint for. Most of the market is asking for the same, and it’s not rocket science to deliver it. Trijicon doesn’t because they are obtuse to market demand. I say this as a guy who has spent a bunch of money on their products. I think Holosun is on the right track with the EPS, EPS Carry, and that enclosed SCS 320 thing they just introduced to fit Sigs. I also think it's brilliant that Holosun is making a line of optics that direct mounts to the factory optics cuts from Glock, S&W, Sig, HK, and Walther. That's not a gimmick. That's awesome. Sig themselves got the memo on how to build a pistol optic in the 2020s and just introduced this thing:  That has a lot of potential. It's pretty clear which direction the wind is blowing, and Trijicon continues to ignore it. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 8:03:21 PM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lots of companies simply stop innovating when they get large enough and expect their legacy to continue on to generate sales. Lots of established gun companies are ran by boomers that resist any sort of change. Look at what happened to Colt. You can add Winchester, Remington and how man others to that list? Hell Simth and Wesson about folded in the 1990’s. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 8:05:00 PM EST
[#22]
Glock is behind on meeting orders. They're selling more guns than they can produce.
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Posted: 1/18/2023 8:11:09 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I disagree. They revolutionized communications in the industry by actually listening to and interacting with customers, and manufacturing products they asked for. They revolutionized the manner in which to get more guns in to common use by implementing a business model to make their products affordable. You make it out like selling direct to consumer vs normal manufacturer to distributer to dealer business models is something revolutionary, and it's pretty much the only reason they are so much more cost competitive. they sell guns to you at the price most manufacturers sell them to their big distributors. Pretty simple really. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 8:11:27 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep, they're done for. Colt will be gone any day now. They have obviously been poorly managed, but claiming they haven't had very good civilian offerings based on innovation and consumer demand is just flat out bullshit. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Colt went through bankruptcy 87 times and then was bought out by CZ. That's not my idea of a success story. They have obviously been poorly managed, but claiming they haven't had very good civilian offerings based on innovation and consumer demand is just flat out bullshit. Innovation? What have they done this century that's innovative? They have like 11 SKUs of ARs, and they're all 16" 5.56 guns except for the three retro models. Only three are free floated. They make a variety of 1911s, but they're all single stack, and I don't think any are optics ready. I applaud them for bringing back the DA snake guns, but that's not really innovation, either. The SAA seems to be a unicorn, too. I don't think I've ever seen a new one for sale. I have a few Colt firearms, and a King Cobra is on my short list. I'm not a hater. But they clearly have failed to bring anything actually new to the table in a very long time. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 8:12:55 PM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So no Aimpoints for you, then...? *EOTech and not china Whatever the legit pros use. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 8:15:37 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yet Sig gets big ass contracts and somehow still puts out innovative products. I’m no Sig fan, but innovation isn’t a weakness despite having extensive and lucrative DoD small arms contracts. Because they hire every General that retires. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 8:18:15 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Glock is behind on meeting orders. They're selling more guns than they can produce. Same with Aimpoint. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 8:24:30 PM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You make it out like selling direct to consumer vs normal manufacturer to distributer to dealer business models is something revolutionary, and it's pretty much the only reason they are so much more cost competitive. they sell guns to you at the price most manufacturers sell them to their big distributors. Pretty simple really. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I disagree. They revolutionized communications in the industry by actually listening to and interacting with customers, and manufacturing products they asked for. They revolutionized the manner in which to get more guns in to common use by implementing a business model to make their products affordable. You make it out like selling direct to consumer vs normal manufacturer to distributer to dealer business models is something revolutionary, and it's pretty much the only reason they are so much more cost competitive. they sell guns to you at the price most manufacturers sell them to their big distributors. Pretty simple really. PSA is vertically integrated the other direction, too. They keep buying their suppliers or establishing their own inside suppliers to the extent that, IIRC, they make everything that goes into most of their guns except for springs. That makes a huge difference. They also have a level of consumer engagement you don't typically see from a company their size. They talk to us, and they listen to us. With the traditional sales model, distributors order what they think will sell from manufacturers, and dealers order what they think will sell from distributors, and the consumer has a choice of what's on the shelf after those middle-man inputs. With PSA's direct model, the manufacturer gets more accurate input of what consumers actually want. All of this matters and makes a difference. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 8:29:42 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. Just buy what you want. The constant lamenting over muh innuvation is so tiresome. Trijicon, Aimpoint, Glock and Colt will be just fine. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 8:43:49 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryThey sure tried to hop into the tube scope and lpvo market. Poorly. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 8:44:49 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think Holosun is on the right track with the EPS, EPS Carry, and that enclosed SCS 320 thing they just introduced to fit Sigs. I also think it's brilliant that Holosun is making a line of optics that direct mounts to the factory optics cuts from Glock, S&W, Sig, HK, and Walther. That's not a gimmick. That's awesome. Sig themselves got the memo on how to build a pistol optic in the 2020s and just introduced this thing: https://soldiersystems.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/img_5104.jpg That has a lot of potential. It's pretty clear which direction the wind is blowing, and Trijicon continues to ignore it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I personally don’t like a sight with so many settings, I will never find them all or change something and not be able to get back to it. I like shit simple, that works, every time. (Not saying those others don’t but my holo dot can be a pain to navigate settings) ETA: kind of sad where we are at as consumers. We want every bell and whistle for pennies. THAT sells Good, standard, tried and true doesn’t cut it anymore. Options are great though I’m not asking for crazy settings or cheapo Chinese shit. I’m asking for a closed emitter and a RMRcc footprint that big name pistol manufacturers make a footprint for. Most of the market is asking for the same, and it’s not rocket science to deliver it. Trijicon doesn’t because they are obtuse to market demand. I say this as a guy who has spent a bunch of money on their products. I think Holosun is on the right track with the EPS, EPS Carry, and that enclosed SCS 320 thing they just introduced to fit Sigs. I also think it's brilliant that Holosun is making a line of optics that direct mounts to the factory optics cuts from Glock, S&W, Sig, HK, and Walther. That's not a gimmick. That's awesome. Sig themselves got the memo on how to build a pistol optic in the 2020s and just introduced this thing: https://soldiersystems.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/img_5104.jpg That has a lot of potential. It's pretty clear which direction the wind is blowing, and Trijicon continues to ignore it. I will agree that the direct mounting optic is a good idea. Not having to use suppressor height sights is pretty cool too. Everythingg else that gets touted as 'innovation' just seems like what Chinese optics have been doing for years such as multi colored and different reticles on a non-magnified optic. The problem lies somewhat is that there is no industry standard for optics cut which results in almost everyone buying a factory 'optics ready' gun having to use adapter plates. I can only speak for myself but I am happy with my slides that have been cut specifically for the optic I wanted to use such as the RMR. I would however prefer not to have to use suppressor height sights and to have my optic sit as low as possible. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 8:45:51 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They sure tried to hop into the tube scope and lpvo market. Poorly. Trijicon? The 1-4 Accupoint was one of the first popular LPVO's. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 8:49:20 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Glock is behind on meeting orders. They're selling more guns than they can produce. So is SIG. They are still innovating though. One thing that I will never understand with Glock is why they haven't made an aluminum frame. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 8:52:19 PM EST
[#34]
Quoted: Holosun, PSA, etc all came out with some extremely innovative products that the consumer wants. It’s really cool an exciting. Meanwhile legacy companies like Trijicon, Glock, aim point, etc are resting on their laurels and acting like the market hasn’t changed since 2005. Trijicon still can’t get the fact that closed emitters are the future and the market won’t accept the RMRcc footprint. Basic shit they could change that would make them money hand over fist. Glock finally came out with a gen 5 Glock 20 and 21 nearly SIX years after the initial gen 5 release? A OEM trigger that is finally on par with the competition? Meanwhile I’m still waiting on a Glock 26 with a rail and an MOS slide… Factory milled slides/slide assemblies/frames from the factory, able to be purchased separately ala PSA? Good luck… Again they could be making money hand over fist. It’s sad to watch and maddening all at the same time. What exactly did PSA bring out that is innovative? |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 9:00:42 PM EST
[#35]
Most people don't even have guns
Most people that are gun owners have no clue WTF is on their gun and just want something that looks cool The number of people that could tell you the difference between an ACOG and a PA Cyclops is infinitesimal... Lots of guys that have cool stuff can't shoot for shit, and I've never outshot my Glock with an RMR. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 9:02:25 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What exactly did PSA bring out that is innovative? A 15 round Glock 43X/48 mag that you can use the stock mag catch with is pretty huge. Especially if it’s t is as reliable as OEM Glock. They also came out with a 43X clone that is probably cheaper and has more features. You are living under a rock if you don’t realize that PSA is the 800 pound Gorilla of the gun world right now. They are listening to their customer base and delivering, and doing so at a considerable value. It’s awesome. ETA I see you are in CA, that’s probably why you didn’t know and didn’t care about the 43X/Micro Dagger magazine 
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Posted: 1/18/2023 9:04:04 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Trijicon? The 1-4 Accupoint was one of the first popular LPVO's. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: They sure tried to hop into the tube scope and lpvo market. Poorly. Trijicon? The 1-4 Accupoint was one of the first popular LPVO's. It was popular because it was one of the first quality LPVOs, and it was also a wild change up to their product line, contradicting the idea they don't change because that's what their customers want. Every tube scope they've come out with since has been over priced and under performing in comparison to their competition. Then they spent a decade ignoring the market and instead doing things no one asked for like the tripower, srs, and let's not forget this disappointment
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Posted: 1/18/2023 9:06:15 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Most people don't even have guns Most people that are gun owners have no clue WTF is on their gun and just want something that looks cool The number of people that could tell you the difference between an ACOG and a PA Cyclops is infinitesimal... Lots of guys that have cool stuff can't shoot for shit, and I've never outshot my Glock with an RMR. This is true, but the people who don’t pay attention to such things eventually follow the people that do. A few years ago carry optics was not well received even in the training/tactical community. That’s changed, and as a result the market has changed. My current primary carry gun (Glock 19.5 MOS) wears an RMR. I doubt my next carry optic will be a Trijicon, unless they pull their head out of their ass. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 9:07:44 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It was popular because it was one of the first quality LPVOs, and it was also a wild change up to their product line, contradicting the idea they don't change because that's what their customers want. Every tube scope they've come out with since has been over priced and under performing in comparison to their competition. Then they spent a decade ignoring the market and instead doing things no one asked for like the tripower, srs, and let's not forget this disappointment I guess I was more referring to their flagship products like acog's and rmr's with my original statement. But you're right about the Accupoint. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 9:08:25 PM EST
[#40]
Meh, I love my RMRCC and Aimpoint PRO. The RMRCC is small and light, I had my slide direct milled for it. The Aimpoint PRO is absolutely bombproof and proven. I’ll pay more for less features when the product is battle proven and reliable.
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Posted: 1/18/2023 9:08:30 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A 15 round Glock 43X/48 mag that you can use the stock mag catch with is pretty huge. Especially if it’s t is as reliable as OEM Glock. They also came out with a 43X clone that is probably cheaper and has more features. You are living under a rock if you don’t realize that PSA is the 800 pound Gorilla of the gun world right now. They are listening to their customer base and delivering, and doing so at a considerable value. It’s awesome. Huh. I haven't seen that. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 9:09:32 PM EST
[#42]
The RMRcc footprint thing posses me off.
The industry had an established design for YEARS with the Shield RMSC/K footprint and every company (Sig, Holosun, etc) made them and everyone killed their slides for them. Then they make it difficult. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 9:09:41 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Companies like Trijicon don't mess up their product line a lot because their customers don't want that. And they know it. Toyota vs Chevrolet. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 9:10:14 PM EST
[#44]
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Posted: 1/18/2023 9:11:30 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Toyota vs Chevrolet. And that's how you get a 14 year old 4runner. 
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Posted: 1/18/2023 9:12:11 PM EST
[#46]
Trijicon need to wake up and make thermal scopes in the 3-5k range. Not $10,000 they just released today at Shot Show. There is a reason why Bering , and IRay are the hot tickets now
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Posted: 1/18/2023 9:13:06 PM EST
[#47]
An ACOG TA33 LED would be nice.
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Posted: 1/18/2023 9:16:30 PM EST
[#48]
In this thread, we learn that smaller companies are more agile than bigger companies. Bigger companies often let smaller companies be their R&D then use their economies of scale to move in and blow up the market on items.
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Posted: 1/18/2023 9:27:36 PM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What exactly did PSA bring out that is innovative? MP5? |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 9:29:30 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In this thread, we learn that smaller companies are more agile than bigger companies. Bigger companies often let smaller companies be their R&D then use their economies of scale to move in and blow up the market on items. Exactly. A big company has more risk. Especially one that already has an established reputation. |
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