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Posted: 3/27/2021 9:16:24 PM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That same Doll? I thought it was the same one but maybe not. |
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Posted: 3/27/2021 9:18:42 PM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Better than being dead Yep. If being able to walk away from your landing costs $2 million bucks, pay it and be glad. Of course, the plane is going to be insured as well. Trust me. My dad didn’t walk away from his last landing  .
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Posted: 3/28/2021 2:33:36 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Landing with one extended is almost always a recipe for disaster. I have a friend that did it with his P-51. He had a malfunction that kept one form fully extending. He says he had the opportunity to retract them all but didn't want to trash a freshly restored bird. He flew out and pulled some aerobatics to try and free it. It didn't work. He came in a little hot shut the engine down and touched down on on main as light as he could and bled off airspeed. Once the wingtip touched the ground he kicked the rudder as hard as he could full opposite of the drag. It held the plane straight long enough to bleed down the speed far enough that the loop didn't collapse the other main. In the end it damaged the corner of a flap, landing gear door and the wingtip. Piddly stuff. The proper procedure would be to put away the opposite gear and belly in. On concrete would be less dangerous and likely do less damage than landing on grass/dirt in a gear up fashion. Bob Hoover had a very similar incident in 1972 where he landed on one wheel in a P-51. That particular landing starts at 3:40 into this video from the San Diego Air and Space Museum Archives: https://youtu.be/YUay_iUI7Pc?t=220 |
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Posted: 3/28/2021 3:59:03 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @Osprey61 I'm not familiar with that event. Do you happen to know if by no "down and locked indication" if that included visual confirmation of downlock pin, the alignment stripes, and anti-skid REL lights? @qbateaux Happened so long ago I don't remember the actual debrief...at that point I was just an "environmental" troop, and almost a brand new one at that. We didn't become E/E until a couple of months later. I'm fairly certain they could see the stripe alignment and most probably the downlock pin (not an airframe guy, struggling to remember what a downlock pin is) through the nose portal window, because I vaguely remember they made the decision to put it down mostly based on a visual confirmation. Also straining to remember my anti-skid wiring diagram. Seems like the default would be anti-skid enabled with WOW under any gear condition, but again without the schematic it's hard to say. Aircraft did brake to a full stop with no drama, I watched it land. Were you 961st? I had to run upstairs and look at my going-away plaque...says Dec 87 to Dec 89, so that incident probably occurred sometime in early spring of 1988. |
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Posted: 3/28/2021 4:06:09 PM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yup. Pilot mitigated it as best he could. The expensive part would be replacing the engine or the engine mount. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It will get fixed. Yup. Pilot mitigated it as best he could. The expensive part would be replacing the engine or the engine mount. @cavedog who is that in your avatar? |
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Posted: 3/28/2021 4:09:02 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I pinned the left main gear on a MH-53 as it hovered above me. At night. In a field with waist high grass. We were a 2-ship doing night formation approaches into a remote LZ. The other aircraft reported a gear that wasn’t showing locked. We landed and I took our gear pin over and pinned their gear for them. That was fun... That is fucking crazy, but I guess you do what you have to. The 53 guys at Hurlburt had two sea vans full of old mattresses. I thought they were kidding when they told me what they were for. Never saw it happen, but I was assured it had. We used to do CSD adjustments with a cotter key welded on the end of a t-bar underneath running TF-33s (at idle). They bobbed up and down, and there wasn't much chance of it landing on me, but it would have been an uncomfortable place to be if the turbine wheel failed. That felt comparatively safe next to doing man-on-stand C-130 engine runs. Standing two feet from a swinging prop on a stand with the castors wrapped with chains to keep them from sliding on the ramp is nuts. |
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Posted: 3/28/2021 4:14:49 PM EST
[#7]
Why didn't he try landing in the grass instead? Less damage I would think.
Eta. sorry. I see this has been asked and answered. |
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Posted: 3/28/2021 4:17:50 PM EST
[#8]
As someone who has personally landing gear-up (intentionally, after 2.5 hours of laps in the pattern attempting to get the gear to come down and burning fuel), it was a non-event. The pilot in the OP did an amazing, absolutely beautiful job preserving the aircraft and safely landing.
Putting it down (gently) on the concrete results in a little smoke, some spark, and about a 300 meter slide under control. Putting it down on the grass will result in the aircraft cartwheeling, flipping, or (best case), slamming to a very short stop. Injuries and damage will likely result as the energy isn't dispersed over distance. Landing on the runway allows the aircraft to decelerate over distance and time, at the cost of a little bit of aluminum getting ground down. Who cares, ultimately it's billable hours for the mechanics and some money from insurance, as long as everyone walks away. |
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Posted: 3/28/2021 4:34:23 PM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Best looking prop plane ever. |
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Posted: 3/28/2021 4:49:21 PM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As someone who has personally landing gear-up (intentionally, after 2.5 hours of laps in the pattern attempting to get the gear to come down and burning fuel), it was a non-event. The pilot in the OP did an amazing, absolutely beautiful job preserving the aircraft and safely landing. Putting it down (gently) on the concrete results in a little smoke, some spark, and about a 300 meter slide under control. Putting it down on the grass will result in the aircraft cartwheeling, flipping, or (best case), slamming to a very short stop. Injuries and damage will likely result as the energy isn't dispersed over distance. Landing on the runway allows the aircraft to decelerate over distance and time, at the cost of a little bit of aluminum getting ground down. Who cares, ultimately it's billable hours for the mechanics and some money from insurance, as long as everyone walks away. The Tuskeege P-51 was heavily damaged unnecessarily by landing in the grass/dirt. It bent the absolute shit out of things that should have never seen any damage had it been put on the concrete. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3431029/Second-World-War-fighter-plane-suffers-substantial-damage-crash-landing-Texas-airport.html |
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Posted: 3/28/2021 5:49:33 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Tuskeege P-51 was heavily damaged unnecessarily by landing in the grass/dirt. It bent the absolute shit out of things that should have never seen any damage had it been put on the concrete. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3431029/Second-World-War-fighter-plane-suffers-substantial-damage-crash-landing-Texas-airport.html Yup. I hate to monday-morning quarter back, but aviation is one field where I think it's warranted, in order to educate and prevent/mitigate future accidents. I'm unsure of the specific circumstances of that one- one article I read claimed the aircraft departed the runway into the grass. In any event, the pilot would be expected to know that a hard surface landing is preferable to grass. I'm going to assume he did know that but was unable to keep control after touchdown. If that's the case, shit happens; I or anyone else might not have done any better. If he intentionally landed on the grass, he should have known better. |
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Posted: 3/28/2021 5:50:34 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Absolutely. Right after the Corsair. Wrong. The Corsair is so ungainly that it's beautiful in spite of itself. 
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Posted: 3/28/2021 5:54:34 PM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yup. I hate to monday-morning quarter back, but aviation is one field where I think it's warranted, in order to educate and prevent/mitigate future accidents. I'm unsure of the specific circumstances of that one- one article I read claimed the aircraft departed the runway into the grass. In any event, the pilot would be expected to know that a hard surface landing is preferable to grass. I'm going to assume he did know that but was unable to keep control after touchdown. If that's the case, shit happens; I or anyone else might not have done any better. If he intentionally landed on the grass, he should have known better. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The Tuskeege P-51 was heavily damaged unnecessarily by landing in the grass/dirt. It bent the absolute shit out of things that should have never seen any damage had it been put on the concrete. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3431029/Second-World-War-fighter-plane-suffers-substantial-damage-crash-landing-Texas-airport.html Yup. I hate to monday-morning quarter back, but aviation is one field where I think it's warranted, in order to educate and prevent/mitigate future accidents. I'm unsure of the specific circumstances of that one- one article I read claimed the aircraft departed the runway into the grass. In any event, the pilot would be expected to know that a hard surface landing is preferable to grass. I'm going to assume he did know that but was unable to keep control after touchdown. If that's the case, shit happens; I or anyone else might not have done any better. If he intentionally landed on the grass, he should have known better. There used to be a video of the landing out there. I cannot find it now. It is more infuriating due to the fact that I personally had a good bit of time in the restoration project of that aircraft after Don Hinz was killed in it. He had no choice where to put it down, He put it down and ended up in the trees and I think he did less damage to it than the guy that did have a choice. |
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Posted: 3/28/2021 5:57:28 PM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wrong. The Corsair is so ungainly that it's beautiful in spite of itself. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Absolutely. Right after the Corsair. Wrong. The Corsair is so ungainly that it's beautiful in spite of itself. Corsair is a beautiful plane. I had the opportunity to work on two F2G Corsairs. An F2G-2 and an F2G |
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Posted: 3/28/2021 5:58:57 PM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Better than being dead No shit, I don't think cost ever is a factor when death is on the line. |
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Posted: 3/28/2021 6:01:24 PM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No shit, I don't think cost ever is a factor when death is on the line. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Better than being dead No shit, I don't think cost ever is a factor when death is on the line. Any landing you can walk away from... That said, If you have a choice, unless you are a moron, you find the least damaging way to go about it, for both you and the collection of scrap metal you are controlling. |
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Posted: 3/28/2021 6:04:59 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Any landing you can walk away from... That said, If you have a choice, unless you are a moron, you find the least damaging way to go about it, for both you and the collection of scrap metal you are controlling. Yup. In nearly all circumstances, saving myself also saves the airplane. That doesn’t mean cutting the engine on downwind and bumping the starter to save the prop, but you get the picture. |
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Posted: 3/28/2021 6:17:36 PM EST
[#18]
Ouch that does suck.
Side note that's the old Williams AF Base they trained p38 pilots and others there. 25% of AF pilots trained there until 1993 https://www.afcec.af.mil/Home/BRAC/Williams/History/ |
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Posted: 3/28/2021 6:21:55 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That happened in 2014 I believe. Big Beautiful Doll crashed in 2017 and the pilot was killed. IIRC a few carry BBD livery. |
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Posted: 3/28/2021 6:43:55 PM EST
[#20]
didn't foam the runway?
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Posted: 3/28/2021 6:44:02 PM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He couldn't put it in the grass? Under the grass is dirt, dirt is soft (especially if it's been raining prior to the landing), that scoop could grab the dirt and cause the plane to flip. Landing on a nice hard runway where the scoop is ground down is a much better option. |
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Posted: 3/28/2021 6:51:46 PM EST
[#22]
 Warthog belly flop - 1991 gear up landing at Eielson Air Force Base Start it at 1:28. 
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Posted: 3/28/2021 6:56:55 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryThe A-10 is a different animal. The gear pods combined with the protruding mains takes the brunt of a belly landing. With a good landing not very much else gets damaged. On occasion the vertical stabilizers will get some road rash. |
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Posted: 3/28/2021 7:02:53 PM EST
[#24]
When I saw P51 crashI immediately thought it was a Jack Roush thread
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Posted: 3/28/2021 7:04:47 PM EST
[#25]
This was two years before the real crash that took his life.
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Posted: 3/28/2021 7:09:09 PM EST
[#26]
Glad he made. Hope the aircraft is salvageable.
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Posted: 3/28/2021 7:10:53 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The A-10 is a different animal. The gear pods combined with the protruding mains takes the brunt of a belly landing. With a good landing not very much else gets damaged. On occasion the vertical stabilizers will get some road rash. I watched an A-7 Corsair II do a belly landing. About 15 minutes earlier it had taken of from NAS Point Mugu. As it transitioned from wheels on the ground to wheels off the deck the starboard main landing gear wheel came off the strut and free-wheeled down the runway for another 5,00 feet or so. The pilot said he felt a thump from the right side of the plane - then the tower called him and said he lost something from the right side of the plane.  He flew out over the water, dumped fuel and came in for an unarrested landing. The A-7 had a drop tank under each wing. When he landed the plane it scraped the runway for about 2500 feet and stopped. It ground down the wing drop tanks and scraped up the bottom of the plane. The reason why the wheel fell off was because the people working the tire shop were not using the right bearing grease on the wheel bearings (The main landing gear inner wheel bearing of the A-7 was almost as big around as the rim). The bearing disintegrated which cause the outer bearing to fail. About three weeks of work by the civilians and it was good to go. |
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Posted: 3/28/2021 7:11:15 PM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This was two years before the real crash that took his life. Yep. That is the guy that piled it into a street in AZ while doing aerobatics and took a warbird collector with him. IIRC. |
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Posted: 3/28/2021 7:13:16 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I watched an A-7 Corsair II do a belly landing. About 15 minutes earlier it had taken of from NAS Point Mugu. As it transitioned from wheels on the ground to wheels off the deck the starboard main landing gear wheel came off the strut and free-wheeled down the runway for another 5,00 feet or so. The pilot said he felt a thump from the right side of the plane - then the tower called him and said he lost something from the right side of the plane. He flew out over the water, dumped fuel and came in for an unarrested landing. The A-7 had a drop tank under each wing. When he landed the plane it scraped the runway for about 2500 feet and stopped. It ground down the wing drop tanks and scraped up the bottom of the plane. The reason why the wheel fell off was because the people working the tire shop were not using the right bearing grease on the wheel bearings (The main landing gear inner wheel bearing of the A-7 was almost as big around as the rim). The bearing disintegrated which cause the outer bearing to fail. About three weeks of work by the civilians and it was good to go. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The A-10 is a different animal. The gear pods combined with the protruding mains takes the brunt of a belly landing. With a good landing not very much else gets damaged. On occasion the vertical stabilizers will get some road rash. I watched an A-7 Corsair II do a belly landing. About 15 minutes earlier it had taken of from NAS Point Mugu. As it transitioned from wheels on the ground to wheels off the deck the starboard main landing gear wheel came off the strut and free-wheeled down the runway for another 5,00 feet or so. The pilot said he felt a thump from the right side of the plane - then the tower called him and said he lost something from the right side of the plane. He flew out over the water, dumped fuel and came in for an unarrested landing. The A-7 had a drop tank under each wing. When he landed the plane it scraped the runway for about 2500 feet and stopped. It ground down the wing drop tanks and scraped up the bottom of the plane. The reason why the wheel fell off was because the people working the tire shop were not using the right bearing grease on the wheel bearings (The main landing gear inner wheel bearing of the A-7 was almost as big around as the rim). The bearing disintegrated which cause the outer bearing to fail. About three weeks of work by the civilians and it was good to go. Empty the drop tanks and use them for skids! Improvise and adapt!
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Posted: 3/28/2021 7:16:18 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @cavedog who is that in your avatar? Lindsey Shaw. 
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Posted: 3/28/2021 7:21:56 PM EST
[#31]
That sucks
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Posted: 3/28/2021 9:30:21 PM EST
[#32]
That may have been the saddest thing I have ever seen.......... but at least the pilot made it.
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Posted: 3/28/2021 9:31:40 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sure he could have. Would have been a worse idea though IMHO. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: He couldn't put it in the grass? Sure he could have. Would have been a worse idea though IMHO. |
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Posted: 3/28/2021 9:34:02 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Better than being dead Nailed it. |
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Posted: 3/28/2021 9:35:53 PM EST
[#35]
in before "Cadillac of the skies"
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Posted: 3/28/2021 9:46:44 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryHe greased that pig in like it was cool.
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Posted: 3/28/2021 9:47:59 PM EST
[#37]
That was a perfect job (in the OP).
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Posted: 3/28/2021 9:52:43 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Surprising for sure. I would have expected nearly double that. That’s the purchase price Insurance is a bit more |
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Posted: 3/28/2021 9:57:55 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That may have saved beaucoup bucks. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Some sheet metal and maybe replace the radiator. Looked like the engine was shut off and mostly stopped before the props hit the ground, so the motor should be in decent shape still. That may have saved beaucoup bucks. Still a mandatory tear down for the engine. $50,000 plus there |
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Posted: 3/28/2021 10:00:35 PM EST
[#40]
There wasn't a treadmill handy?
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Posted: 3/28/2021 10:06:53 PM EST
[#41]
12 mil for the XP-82 twin mustang
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Posted: 3/28/2021 10:21:26 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That happened in 2014 I believe. Big Beautiful Doll crashed in 2017 and the pilot was killed. Yup, same plane... “The third of these airframes is P-51D 44-63634, which was accepted by the USAAF on 29 November 1944. In 1963, it was sold and put on the US register as N6149U and seemed to go through several transformations. In 1968, it was heavily damaged in a wheels up landing at Springfield, Illinois and then re-appeared in 1992, completely restored and in the hands of renowned display pilot Ed Shipley as “Big Beautiful Doll.” In May 2014 ownership transferred to Jeffrey Pino under the registration N351BD. Then in October of that year the aircraft developed a fault with the landing gear, forcing Jeffrey to make a text book gear up landing for which he was applauded. Sadly, on 5th February this year, both “Big Beautiful Doll” and its owner departed into the Arizona skies on their last flight. Time will tell what caused this tragic accident; but I for one, as an avid warbird enthusiast, am grateful that people like Jeffrey Pino and Nicholas Tramontano are willing to put their time, money and lives into keeping the memory of these wonderful aircraft and the people that served with them alive.” https://sofrep.com/fightersweep/the-big-beautiful-doll-story/  Attached FileCrash detail report- http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/02/north-american-p-51-fatal-accident.html |
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Posted: 3/29/2021 12:55:03 AM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: only 2 million? https://www.controller.com/listings/for-sale/north-american/p-51-mustang/aircraft Big Beautiful Doll for Sale |
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Posted: 3/29/2021 12:56:01 AM EST
[#44]
that helicopter guy sure seems like a douche
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Posted: 3/29/2021 1:31:56 AM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: that helicopter guy sure seems like a douche He was a longtime Phoenix TV news “chopper guy” who gives play by play of traffic and police events etc. Bruce Haffner https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2014/06/03/longtime-reporter-helicopter-pilot-bruce-haffner.html |
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Posted: 3/29/2021 1:44:08 AM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: that helicopter guy sure seems like a douche No he was a good guy, longtime fixture here . |
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Posted: 3/29/2021 3:05:40 AM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He couldn't put it in the grass? You know the runway is flat and smooth. A grass field is everything but that. |
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Posted: 3/29/2021 3:51:13 AM EST
[#48]
Ouch.
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Posted: 3/29/2021 8:02:47 AM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryThat’s “Contrary Mary”....similar looking tho. If I just had an extra 4.5M sitting around...  Attached File |
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