Posted: 12/30/2024 3:01:07 PM EDT
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In response to the "dress shirt" thread: Categories of men's dress and what to wear. First, we need to define terms, so that we are talking about the same thing when we use a term (this is partially why we had some disagreement in the other thread. Formal consists of two types of wear; (A) Evening Dress, or "white tie" worn after 6PM, and (B) Morning (Day) wear worn before 6PM. Semi - Formal worn after 6PM which is the Dinner wear (Tuxedo) Informal - Next level of inferior dress, which for our purposes can be thought of as the business suit. Casual - Usually consists if garments of different colors, fabrics, and patterns, worn without a tie. Bespoke - a garment designed by the customer, selecting the fabric to be used, cut, style, and made to measure from a pattern developed from the body measurements of the customer. Custom - a garment consisting of the merchant's standard fabric and style, modified to better fit the customer based on measurements taken of the customer. Standard fit (off the rack) - a garment produced to sizes based on a standard sizing system, which a customer selects a size based on the closet fit to the customer's body measurements. |
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Originally Posted By HenryKnoxFineBooks: In response to the "dress shirt" thread: Categories of men's dress and what to wear. First, we need to define terms, so that we are talking about the same thing when we use a term (this is partially why we had some disagreement in the other thread. Formal consists of two types of wear; (A) Evening Dress, or "white tie" worn after 6PM, and (B) Morning (Day) wear worn before 6PM. Semi - Formal worn after 6PM which is the Dinner wear (Tuxedo) 99% of people in the U.S. will understand "Formal" to mean Tuxedo. We reject your terms. |
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Originally Posted By SpanishInquisition: What defines formal day wear? Attached File Black cut away coat (may be gray for weddings or certain events such as Royal Ascot), white shirt with turndown collar, double (French) cuffs, waistcoat may be gray, buff, or white. Striped gray trousers with braces (suspenders). Photo from the New Year's Day concert in Vienna. Alternative from Royal Ascot: Attached File |
That's no way for guys like us to go out. We should go out in the midst of a desperate battle, doing great deeds. - COL Rick Rescorla
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Originally Posted By T-Minus: 99% of people in the U.S. will understand "Formal" to mean Tuxedo. We reject your terms. As a culture, we are very informal - it is part of our civic nature as a nation of equal citizens. Thus, in our culture, semi-formal (tuxedo) is about as far as we go. Europe is a much more stratified society, with a stricter set of rules about who belongs where in society. Manner of dress is one of those distinctions used to identify who is who. Americans who know the rule set in use, and can accommodate to them, may gain a degree of access to people that ordinary Europeans would never have the chance to meet. I did not intend to cover the formal dress which has been mentioned above as that is seldom seen in the US, and those who go there are already familiar with the rules. So, on to Semi-formal, the Tuxedo. Tuxedo is a purely American term for the dinner jacket, and for a manner of dress is referred to as "black tie" rather than the formal "white tie". The mode of dress began in the late 1800s, as the Prince of Wales wanted a less bothersome dining costume than evening wear. The coat was simplified by removing the tails and being lengthened. The shirt was simplified by using a turn down collar instead of a winged collar, and a pleated front. Thus, the reason for the statement in the other thread that dress shirts do not have pockets. This is because they can't as other features dominate the chest of the shirt. A look at the jacket: Note peaked lapels, with no flaps on the pockets. There is a single black cloth button closure, and as is the case on most bespoke garments, four buttons on each cuff. Attached File The trousers do not have belt loops - as a belt would interfere with the cummerbund. Single stripe on the outseam. Attached File The design of the shirt is mentioned above. The shirt is fastened with studs, not buttons. A four or three stud arrangement is correct for this mode of dress. For the curious, the tag at the bottom of the placket is the month and year on manufacture. Turnbull & Asser used to do that on the bespoke shirts. Attached File For most Americans, this outfit is thought of as formal and a number of local habits have evolved around the wear of the Tuxedo. The term is from the Tuxedo Park a gentleman's club. One of the members who visited the Prince of Wales, brought the dinner jacket dress back to the US, where it became adopted by the Tuxedo Park club ...... Various colors of Tuxedo might be worn, wing collar shirts, different color bow ties, waistcoats (vests) and almost any number of variations that is worn elsewhere will instantly mark the wearer as an American of inferior social standing. |
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Originally Posted By HenryKnoxFineBooks: As a culture, we are very informal - it is part of our civic nature as a nation of equal citizens. Thus, in our culture, semi-formal (tuxedo) is about as far as we go. Europe is a much more stratified society, with a stricter set of rules about who belongs where in society. Manner of dress is one of those distinctions used to identify who is who. Americans who know the rule set in use, and can accommodate to them, may gain a degree of access to people that ordinary Europeans would never have the chance to meet. I did not intend to cover the formal dress which has been mentioned above as that is seldom seen in the US, and those who go there are already familiar with the rules. So, on to Semi-formal, the Tuxedo. Tuxedo is a purely American term for the dinner jacket, and for a manner of dress is referred to as "black tie" rather than the formal "white tie". The mode of dress began in the late 1800s, as the Prince of Wales wanted a less bothersome dining costume than evening wear. The coat was simplified by removing the tails and being lengthened. The shirt was simplified by using a turn down collar instead of a winged collar, and a pleated front. Thus, the reason for the statement in the other thread that dress shirts do not have pockets. This is because they can't as other features dominate the chest of the shirt. A look at the jacket: Note peaked lapels, with no flaps on the pockets. There is a single black cloth button closure, ans as is the case on most bespoke garments, four buttons on each cuff. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/180398/Dinner-jacket_JPG-3421504.JPG The trousers do not have belt loops - as a belt would interfere with the cummerbund. Single stripe on the outseam. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/180398/Dinner-trousers_JPG-3421506.JPG The design of the shirt is mentioned above. The shirt is fastened with studs, not buttons. A four or three stud arrangement is correct for this mode of dress. For the curious, the tag at the bottom of the placket is the month and year on manufacture. Turnbull & Asser used to do that on the bespoke shirts. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/180398/Dinner-shirt_JPG-3421511.JPG For most Americans, this outfit is thought of as formal and a number of local habits have evolved around the wear of the Tuxedo. The term is from the Tuxedo Park a gentleman's club. One of the members who visited the Prince of Wales, brought the dinner jacket dress back to the US, where it became adopted by the Tuxedo Park club ...... Various colors of Tuxedo might be worn, wing collar shirts, different color bow ties, waistcoats (vests) and almost any number of variations that is worn elsewhere will instantly mark the wearer as an American of inferior social standing. All of that is fine and good, but you're not going to convince a single american to change how they define and refer to dress code. Whether you agree or not, in the U.S. "formal" = Black Tie = Tuxedo. You're wasting your time otherwise. |
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Originally Posted By HenryKnoxFineBooks: As a culture, we are very informal - it is part of our civic nature as a nation of equal citizens. Thus, in our culture, semi-formal (tuxedo) is about as far as we go. Europe is a much more stratified society, with a stricter set of rules about who belongs where in society. Manner of dress is one of those distinctions used to identify who is who. Americans who know the rule set in use, and can accommodate to them, may gain a degree of access to people that ordinary Europeans would never have the chance to meet. I did not intend to cover the formal dress which has been mentioned above as that is seldom seen in the US, and those who go there are already familiar with the rules. So, on to Semi-formal, the Tuxedo. Tuxedo is a purely American term for the dinner jacket, and for a manner of dress is referred to as "black tie" rather than the formal "white tie". The mode of dress began in the late 1800s, as the Prince of Wales wanted a less bothersome dining costume than evening wear. The coat was simplified by removing the tails and being lengthened. The shirt was simplified by using a turn down collar instead of a winged collar, and a pleated front. Thus, the reason for the statement in the other thread that dress shirts do not have pockets. This is because they can't as other features dominate the chest of the shirt. A look at the jacket: Note peaked lapels, with no flaps on the pockets. There is a single black cloth button closure, ans as is the case on most bespoke garments, four buttons on each cuff. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/180398/Dinner-jacket_JPG-3421504.JPG The trousers do not have belt loops - as a belt would interfere with the cummerbund. Single stripe on the outseam. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/180398/Dinner-trousers_JPG-3421506.JPG The design of the shirt is mentioned above. The shirt is fastened with studs, not buttons. A four or three stud arrangement is correct for this mode of dress. For the curious, the tag at the bottom of the placket is the month and year on manufacture. Turnbull & Asser used to do that on the bespoke shirts. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/180398/Dinner-shirt_JPG-3421511.JPG For most Americans, this outfit is thought of as formal and a number of local habits have evolved around the wear of the Tuxedo. The term is from the Tuxedo Park a gentleman's club. One of the members who visited the Prince of Wales, brought the dinner jacket dress back to the US, where it became adopted by the Tuxedo Park club ...... Various colors of Tuxedo might be worn, wing collar shirts, different color bow ties, waistcoats (vests) and almost any number of variations that is worn elsewhere will instantly mark the wearer as an American of inferior social standing. Didn't know the history of the word itself, thanks OP. The increasingly casual forms of dress in our society is disheartening. |
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Where does camo fit? Formal or informal? Does one need a coat like a M65 camo to make it formal? While I have a couple decent suits, [for a plebeian blue collar guy] wearing a tie nowadays is like water torture to me. A nice fitted black suit over white shirt beats all other colors though unless standing in direct sunlight. |
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I'm getting down to the last box, the others have all been destroyed...
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Originally Posted By fxntime: Where does camo fit? Formal or informal? Does one need a coat like a M65 camo to make it formal? While I have a couple decent suits, [for a plebeian blue collar guy] wearing a tie nowadays is like water torture to me. A nice fitted black suit over white shirt beats all other colors though unless standing in direct sunlight. Of course, the M65 completes the look depending on its cut and the presence of absence of a plate carrier. |
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Originally Posted By feudist: Bespoke Woodland is for running coon dogs east of the Mississippi, whereas OCP is suitable for song dog stalking to the west. Of course, the M65 completes the look depending on its cut and the presence of absence of a plate carrier. You may laugh, but it has been done. When I do briefings for MG and above, the uniforms for dog and pony shows come out: Pockets are sewn down, but functional, which forces the expansion of the pocket to the inside: Attached File Same with the jacket, and the shoulder gussets are also sewn down, to present a trimmer appearance: Attached File Lastly the cap shows how to present the more tremendous appearance in general - take the uniform out when partly dry and form fit it as it drys completely: Attached File Just because starching is prohibited, it is not required to look like a sack of potatoes. 
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That's no way for guys like us to go out. We should go out in the midst of a desperate battle, doing great deeds. - COL Rick Rescorla
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Originally Posted By HenryKnoxFineBooks: You may laugh, but it has been done. When I do briefings for MG and above, the uniforms for dog and pony shows come out: Pockets are sewn down, but functional, which forces the expansion of the pocket to the inside: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/180398/OCP1_JPG-3435106.JPG Same with the jacket, and the shoulder gussets are also sewn down, to present a trimmer appearance: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/180398/OCP2_JPG-3435107.JPG Lastly the cap shows how to present the more tremendous appearance in general - take the uniform out when partly dry and form fit it as it drys completely: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/180398/OCP3_JPG-3435109.JPG Just because starching is prohibited, it is not required to look like a sack of potatoes. Originally Posted By HenryKnoxFineBooks: Originally Posted By feudist: Bespoke Woodland is for running coon dogs east of the Mississippi, whereas OCP is suitable for song dog stalking to the west. Of course, the M65 completes the look depending on its cut and the presence of absence of a plate carrier. You may laugh, but it has been done. When I do briefings for MG and above, the uniforms for dog and pony shows come out: Pockets are sewn down, but functional, which forces the expansion of the pocket to the inside: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/180398/OCP1_JPG-3435106.JPG Same with the jacket, and the shoulder gussets are also sewn down, to present a trimmer appearance: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/180398/OCP2_JPG-3435107.JPG Lastly the cap shows how to present the more tremendous appearance in general - take the uniform out when partly dry and form fit it as it drys completely: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/180398/OCP3_JPG-3435109.JPG Just because starching is prohibited, it is not required to look like a sack of potatoes. You use a candle too.............. That was my trick when I was in. Once I found the perfect size, I used it daily to keep it blocked when off. |
Liberals are a curious mix of communism and fascism, they want to destroy you but want to use your own money to do it.
I'm getting down to the last box, the others have all been destroyed...
I'm getting down to the last box, the others have all been destroyed...
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Informal, or as we tend to call it in the US, business suit. Darker colors are considered more serious that lighter colors, which are considered a bit more casual. Americans tend to favor more conservative patterns, such as narrow pinstripes or solids, while Europeans tend toward more complex patterns of cloth (this tends also to hold for shirt patterns). The notch lapel uses less material, and as a pattern is considered more American / military in orientation compared to the peak lapel, which Americans tend to reserve to double breasted suits. Attached File One of the features of bespoke and tailored (custom or made to measure) is functional cuff buttons, and bespoke garments have either your name in the other label or in the case of Turnbull & Asser shirts, the order number stamped on the label and at least one of the shirts in the order will have the manufacture date. Attached File There are feature to allow for long term upkeep of bespoke suits - seam allowance for strength or weight gain, and extra material at the bottom of the trousers to take the wear, rather than the suit fabric. Braces (suspenders) are favored over belt loops by this market segment. Attached File When ordering the bespoke shirts, you select the fabric from a sample book, collar style, cuff style and option of breast pocket. Attached File In our business casual environment, the shirt is an outer garment, so that may influence your design choices. |
That's no way for guys like us to go out. We should go out in the midst of a desperate battle, doing great deeds. - COL Rick Rescorla