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Posted: 5/28/2019 7:27:28 PM EDT
[#1]
The entire opioid crisis thing is total bullshit. I've explained my situation here several times and don't feel like repeating myself, but the short version is both my knees are fucked and surgery is extremely risky due to a clotting problem. It almost killed me once and I don't want a repeat. The end result is I'd rather take pain pills than risk dying as the result of knee surgery.
My doc recently said the state is cutting the max daily dose of oxycodone to 20 mg. Twenty fucking milligrams a day. I am seriously considering saying fuck it and going on permanent disability. My doc says I qualify. If the state won't give me what I need for pain so I can work, they can support me 100%. Fuck it. |
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Posted: 5/28/2019 7:29:37 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I’ve had 36 surgeries and allergic to all narcotic painkillers. Let’s talk about what a reasonable threshold of pain is. |
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Posted: 5/28/2019 7:29:39 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The entire opioid crisis thing is total bullshit. I've explained my situation here several times and don't feel like repeating myself, but the short version is both my knees are fucked and surgery is extremely risky due to a clotting problem. It almost killed me once and I don't want a repeat. The end result is I'd rather take pain pills than risk dying as the result of knee surgery. My doc recently said the state is cutting the max daily dose of oxycodone to 20 mg. Twenty fucking milligrams a day. I am seriously considering saying fuck it and going on permanent disability. My doc says I qualify. If the state won't give me what I need for pain so I can work, they can support me 100%. Fuck it. |
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Posted: 5/28/2019 8:16:54 PM EDT
[#4]
State had an expert in rehab talk about addiction. Went into great depth about brain changes and how hard it was to bwat opioids. Defense attny asked him had he ever seen an addict in his program that came from a chronic pain management program.
No. Had he seen any addicts that had been using JJ's fentanyl patches? No. The AG's deal is that JJ is in the poppy growing biz and "neck deep" in the crisis. JJ says it isn't/wasn't their product causing the problem. AG says it isn't just about the patch. |
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Posted: 5/28/2019 8:24:46 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
State had an expert in rehab talk about addiction. Went into great depth about brain changes and how hard it was to bwat opioids. Defense attny asked him had he ever seen an addict in his program that came from a chronic pain management program. No. Had he seen any addicts that had been using JJ's fentanyl patches? No. The AG's deal is that JJ is in the poppy growing biz and "neck deep" in the crisis. JJ says it isn't/wasn't their product causing the problem. AG says it isn't just about the patch. |
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Posted: 5/28/2019 8:36:19 PM EDT
[#6]
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I'm surprised J&J didn't settle. |
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Posted: 5/28/2019 8:44:08 PM EDT
[#7]
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if it isn't about the patch, what standing do they have to bring the lawsuit? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
State had an expert in rehab talk about addiction. Went into great depth about brain changes and how hard it was to bwat opioids. Defense attny asked him had he ever seen an addict in his program that came from a chronic pain management program. No. Had he seen any addicts that had been using JJ's fentanyl patches? No. The AG's deal is that JJ is in the poppy growing biz and "neck deep" in the crisis. JJ says it isn't/wasn't their product causing the problem. AG says it isn't just about the patch. 
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Posted: 5/28/2019 8:45:42 PM EDT
[#8]
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I am as well. Two others did. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm surprised J&J didn't settle. People would be shocked how many so-called "litigators" are actually scared to take a case to trial. Litigators do discovery and motions; real courtroom lawyers who argue their before judges/juries are a subset of "litigators." |
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Posted: 5/28/2019 8:46:13 PM EDT
[#9]
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Does anyone know of an addict that would just simply not be one if their drug of choice was unavailable? I don't. But when they were gone, aside from a few days of longing for another pill, I didn't go hunting for a corner heroin dealer. My point is that if opiods were OTC I'd likely be living in a box under a bridge. |
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Posted: 5/28/2019 8:56:56 PM EDT
[#10]
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if it isn't about the patch, what standing do they have to bring the lawsuit? JJ says their opium business is operated to the letter of the law and that the .gov monitors their business down to the last gram. In the final analysis, OK and its hired guns out of Austin are after money and not facts. |
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Posted: 5/28/2019 9:05:22 PM EDT
[#11]
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State says that JJ can't say they weren't involved because their only involvement is a patch. State says that JJ grew and marketed bulk opiates to other manufacturers including those who already settled. JJ says their opium business is operated to the letter of the law and that the .gov monitors their business down to the last gram. In the final analysis, OK and its hired guns out of Austin are after money and not facts. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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if it isn't about the patch, what standing do they have to bring the lawsuit? JJ says their opium business is operated to the letter of the law and that the .gov monitors their business down to the last gram. In the final analysis, OK and its hired guns out of Austin are after money and not facts. |
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Posted: 5/28/2019 9:08:14 PM EDT
[#12]
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While Pill Mill docs played a role, the government is the one that created the “nuisance”. Ironically, Kermit Gosnell didn’t get into trouble for killing newborn babies but rather because he ran a pill mill. The DEA found a bunch of full-term babies in his freezers and try as they may, they couldn’t ignore it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Docs were telling docs. That is the bottom line. Some docs discovered pill mills make money under the guise of the 5th vital.... Docs-the bad onesare the problem. Plenty of good docs did the right thing. And those were plumbers selling all the Vicodin out of pain clinics? BAD DOCTORS PLAYED A ROLE. Ironically, Kermit Gosnell didn’t get into trouble for killing newborn babies but rather because he ran a pill mill. The DEA found a bunch of full-term babies in his freezers and try as they may, they couldn’t ignore it. |
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Posted: 5/28/2019 9:13:21 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Docs were told that "pain is the 5th vital sign," and that it was essentially patient abuse to withhold narcotics. I've practiced through both ends of the pendulum swing. It's not fun. Then extorts money through a lawsuit and uses said money to buy votes. See tobacco lawsuit. |
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Posted: 5/28/2019 9:22:55 PM EDT
[#14]
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Screw this over hyped opioid epidemic bullshit. Trying to get the doc that diagnosed me with pneumonia to write me script for cough syrup last week was ridiculous. The script she wrote me was so minimal that the pharmacist actually increased it so I could take it twice a day instead of once. I didn't even know they could do that. I've lost friends to addiction and it sucks. But none of them got hooked from a Vicodin script following surgery or similar crap. but.. here's how the process went.. doc puts person on vicodin for something. person takes it every day for a month (30 day supply). well vicodin is pretty mild and if you take it continually its efficacy quickly decreases. so.. doc then put person on oxycontin x mg size. and then increased the dosage as the older dosage became less effective. prior to oxycontin, there wasnt much that docs would write beyond tylenol with codein, vicodin etc. perhaps percodan but that was about it. for cancer patients it was a different deal, morphine and dilaudid but you didnt see scripts for that a lot. issue is it went from being all the way crazy with opiod scripts (oxycontin and similar types of drugs that were relatively new on the scene) to all the way, you cant get anything even if you are dying. but.. i think the makers of oxycontin knew what they were doing, making mega dose opiod pills and advocating the docs prescribe it. i grew up in the 60s and 70s. folks that take drugs for recreational purposes very quickly figure out how to get the most out of a drug. and crushing an oxycontin pill and snorting it was an obvious thing that was gonna happen and you cant tell me the manufacturers didnt know this. and there are folks who take something because a doc prescribes it and dont realize that at some point they will become addicted. you can blame these folks. they should have known better but the truth is a lot of folks didnt question what they were getting because a doctor was prescribing it. i seen this happen more than once. |
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Posted: 5/28/2019 9:25:16 PM EDT
[#15]
OK’s opening statement consisted of:
Opioids bad. JJ sells opioids. JJ bad. JJ’s sales people went out and sold fentanyl patches. Fentanyl patches are opioids. JJ kills people for money. As JJ sales went up, deaths went up. It was aimed at an audience with the thought processes of a sack of nut coal. JJ’s opening statement consisted of: We followed the law to the letter. Everything we said or printed was pre-approved. Our fentanyl patches are much less addictive than other forms even according to the fedgov and research everywhere. JJ never sold injectables. JJ didn’t sell pills, only patches. It’s about the money. |
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Posted: 5/28/2019 9:25:48 PM EDT
[#16]
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Every time I hear that company’s name I can’t help but think they should be making dildos or something. 
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Posted: 5/28/2019 9:26:04 PM EDT
[#17]
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If there is a problem it is the doctors. 10 years ago or a little more they totally changed the way we did things on the ambulance. Nobody is uncomfortable. Anybody in pain gets strong pain medicine immediately. EVERYONE OF US SAID this won't turn out like you think it will. We were just stupid paramedics. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm rooting for big pharma. 10 years ago or a little more they totally changed the way we did things on the ambulance. Nobody is uncomfortable. Anybody in pain gets strong pain medicine immediately. EVERYONE OF US SAID this won't turn out like you think it will. We were just stupid paramedics. Now I have to jump through hoops to prescribe tramadol and gabapentin because of this crap. |
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Posted: 5/28/2019 9:26:05 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Screw this over hyped opioid epidemic bullshit. Trying to get the doc that diagnosed me with pneumonia to write me script for cough syrup last week was ridiculous. The script she wrote me was so minimal that the pharmacist actually increased it so I could take it twice a day instead of once. I didn't even know they could do that. I've lost friends to addiction and it sucks. But none of them got hooked from a Vicodin script following surgery or similar crap. Whatever they’re passing off as cough syrup did nothing but keep me up at night. After showing my DL to get the worthless crap of course. |
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Posted: 5/28/2019 9:50:22 PM EDT
[#19]
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If my cervical fusion experience was ay example I could EASILY be an opiod junkie. They gave me a 10-day supply of Oxy, and then another week of percoset. I got AWFULLY used to those pills. But when they were gone, aside from a few days of longing for another pill, I didn't go hunting for a corner heroin dealer. My point is that if opiods were OTC I'd likely be living in a box under a bridge. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Does anyone know of an addict that would just simply not be one if their drug of choice was unavailable? I don't. But when they were gone, aside from a few days of longing for another pill, I didn't go hunting for a corner heroin dealer. My point is that if opiods were OTC I'd likely be living in a box under a bridge. |
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Posted: 5/28/2019 9:51:48 PM EDT
[#20]
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Lighten up. I know you are a doc. I am not claiming to supercede your greatness or authority. As a matter of fact I have nothing against you. But irresponsible people are the problem. The legal pills can be controlled. China and Mexico are a wild card. Thanks for the dialogue. The bottom line in all this nonsense is that it is the addicts fault that they are an addict. It’s not Philip Morris’ fault. It’s not Seagrams’ fault. It’s not Pfizer’s fault. It’s the fault of the person who chooses to smoke, or drink, or abuse pain medication. If you drink yourself to death it’s your fault. If you smoke yourself into COPD or cancer, it’s your fault. If you lie about your pain to get Vicodin that you the crush and snort, it’s your fault. Enabling addicts by telling them it’s the fault of pharma or docs does them no good. |
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Posted: 5/28/2019 9:58:36 PM EDT
[#21]
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Yep, I agree. Everyone gets Vicoden, Oxy or Percoset. Now I have to jump through hoops to prescribe tramadol and gabapentin because of this crap. |
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Posted: 5/28/2019 10:00:12 PM EDT
[#22]
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Well, I apologize for the snark. I just a wee bit tired of the "evil doctors" rhetoric. It's not truedocs are caught up in this bullshit just like everyone else. The bottom line in all this nonsense is that it is the addicts fault that they are an addict. It's not Philip Morris' fault. It's not Seagrams' fault. It's not Pfizer's fault. It's the fault of the person who chooses to smoke, or drink, or abuse pain medication. If you drink yourself to death it's your fault. If you smoke yourself into COPD or cancer, it's your fault. If you lie about your pain to get Vicodin that you the crush and snort, it's your fault. Enabling addicts by telling them it's the fault of pharma or docs does them no good. I agree we are all responsible for our own actions. I have probably done my typical crappy communicating. I agree with your post. I don't think there is an opioid crisis. I think there is a lack of personal responsibility of society crisis. |
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Posted: 5/28/2019 10:02:13 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, I apologize for the snark. I just a wee bit tired of the "evil doctors" rhetoric. It's not truedocs are caught up in this bullshit just like everyone else. The bottom line in all this nonsense is that it is the addicts fault that they are an addict. It's not Philip Morris' fault. It's not Seagrams' fault. It's not Pfizer's fault. It's the fault of the person who chooses to smoke, or drink, or abuse pain medication. If you drink yourself to death it's your fault. If you smoke yourself into COPD or cancer, it's your fault. If you lie about your pain to get Vicodin that you the crush and snort, it's your fault. Enabling addicts by telling them it's the fault of pharma or docs does them no good. |
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Posted: 5/28/2019 10:02:19 PM EDT
[#24]
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We agree with far more than we disagree. I do not think there is a conspiracy with all doctors. I do think there are a few bad ones overshadowing all the good docs(like yourself most likely). I agree we are all responsible for our own actions. I have probably done my typical crappy communicating. I agree with your post. I don't think there is an opioid crisis. I think there is a lack of personal responsibility of society crisis. |
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Posted: 5/28/2019 10:03:37 PM EDT
[#25]
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Good point about the gabapentin. The drug warriors are now going after the non-opiate pain medicine alternatives, restricting those because someone somewhere might get a buzz off them. They won’t stop with opiates. It’s almost like they want people to be in pain and suffer. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Yep, I agree. Everyone gets Vicoden, Oxy or Percoset. Now I have to jump through hoops to prescribe tramadol and gabapentin because of this crap. |
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Posted: 5/28/2019 10:07:37 PM EDT
[#26]
If doctors were so stupid as to not view heroine, oh i mean legalized opioids, as being highly addictive they shouldn't be doctors. Same blame rests on the patients too. How about, you know, doing some god damn research before putting foreign substances in your body. But I guess I'm just some stupid hick from flyover country. Lord knows I'm just an ignorant hayseed.
Im not even on the side of making opioids harder to get a hold of as I know some people legitimately need them. |
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Posted: 5/28/2019 10:10:46 PM EDT
[#27]
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I somewhat agree with your point that an addict is at fault for MOST abuse. But could you also admit that some people are introduced to narcotics who dont fully understand how hard it can be to get off them?I can tell you a lot of seniors are given narcotics and poorly educated on them who then become dependent |
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Posted: 5/28/2019 10:32:45 PM EDT
[#28]
Number of people who got addicted because big meanie medical/pharma complex twisted their arm and jammed the pills down their throat?
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Posted: 5/28/2019 11:09:54 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I tend to lump that train of thought in with the whole "I didn't know cigarette smoking was bad for you" nonsense. The general populace has known about the addictive potential of opiates since the "opium crisis" of the 1800s and laudanum addiction of the same time period. People know. |
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Posted: 5/29/2019 12:30:49 AM EDT
[#30]
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Good point about the gabapentin. The drug warriors are now going after the non-opiate pain medicine alternatives, restricting those because someone somewhere might get a buzz off them. They won’t stop with opiates. It’s almost like they want people to be in pain and suffer. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Yep, I agree. Everyone gets Vicoden, Oxy or Percoset. Now I have to jump through hoops to prescribe tramadol and gabapentin because of this crap. |
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Posted: 5/29/2019 9:36:34 AM EDT
[#31]
More pain = earlier death = lower .gov health care costs.
Largest percentage of suicides is middle age and older white men. That is the group with the longest and most physically taxing work history. They need to die. They are surplus. |
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Posted: 5/29/2019 9:41:52 AM EDT
[#32]
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Respectfully disagree. A lot of people trust doctors completely and just know the med is for pain. Maybe its a regional thing but I would say a serious portion have no idea what the medications are. |
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Posted: 5/29/2019 9:50:55 AM EDT
[#33]
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JJ is arguing that they did nothing counter to fed or state laws or guidelines. They argue that opioids are essential for chronic pain treatment and are worth the risk knowing there will be some bad results. But the benefits far outweigh the negatives. This case is identical to suits against gun makers. IMHO if JJ loses there will be a wholesale assault on the firearms industry as we have not seen before. |
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Posted: 5/29/2019 9:52:09 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
More pain = earlier death = lower .gov health care costs. Largest percentage of suicides is middle age and older white men. That is the group with the longest and most physically taxing work history. They need to die. They are surplus. 
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Posted: 5/29/2019 9:53:40 AM EDT
[#35]
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Yikes. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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JJ is arguing that they did nothing counter to fed or state laws or guidelines. They argue that opioids are essential for chronic pain treatment and are worth the risk knowing there will be some bad results. But the benefits far outweigh the negatives. This case is identical to suits against gun makers. IMHO if JJ loses there will be a wholesale assault on the firearms industry as we have not seen before. Of course, PLCAA will be GONE if the Dems get teh White House and both houses of Congress. |
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Posted: 5/29/2019 9:55:17 AM EDT
[#36]
I'm rooting for J&J.
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Posted: 5/29/2019 9:56:40 AM EDT
[#37]
Watched local, national, and international coverage last night. How they reported the day's action vs what actually happened was widely disparate. The media is very anti pharma. They ignored evidence that JJ did not sell the forms of opioids blamed for the crisis.
Mrs Rabinowitz and I appeared in pics on websites for both the BBC and NYT. |
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Posted: 5/29/2019 9:57:47 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
was that the OK AG's closing argument, or J&J's? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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More pain = earlier death = lower .gov health care costs. Largest percentage of suicides is middle age and older white men. That is the group with the longest and most physically taxing work history. They need to die. They are surplus. |
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Posted: 5/29/2019 9:59:16 AM EDT
[#39]
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I don't inherently disagree with the sentiment, but practice beyond their scope much? |
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Posted: 5/29/2019 10:00:15 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I tend to lump that train of thought in with the whole “I didn’t know cigarette smoking was bad for you” nonsense. The general populace has known about the addictive potential of opiates since the “opium crisis” of the 1800s and laudanum addiction of the same time period. People know. |
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Posted: 5/29/2019 10:03:42 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tessalon perles, containing benzonatate. Ask for a prescription of them next time, it's a non narcotic medicine that works just as well as codiene. Do not chew them unless you want to look like you went boxing with Tyson. Kharn |
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Posted: 5/29/2019 10:10:28 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They |
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Posted: 5/29/2019 10:10:49 AM EDT
[#43]
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Nonsense. It was the government and plaintiff's lawyers that pushed that "5th vital sign crap." Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Docs were telling docs. That is the bottom line. Some docs discovered pill mills make money under the guise of the 5th vital.... Docs-the bad onesare the problem. Plenty of good docs did the right thing. FWIW, I only use 1-10 when I administer. No patient of mine ever gets a numeric pain score. I subjectively document their pain, but never numerically unless I'm trying to guage the effectiveness of the response. Like someone here once said (and I'm paraphrasing), "I'll document a number for pain when they give me a tool to plug into an orifice that can give me a number." |
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Posted: 5/29/2019 10:13:04 AM EDT
[#44]
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They You have to remember that the old people of today were collage kids in the 60's and everyone knew about drugs, prescription or otherwise, and references to pain pills, uppers, and downers filled popular music. The big difference is that if someone O.D.'ed the social response was "dumbass," and users were by and large embarrassed and stigmatized, not enabled like they are today. Even though there was abuse, a lot of it was kept in check by social pressure. |
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Posted: 5/29/2019 10:15:18 AM EDT
[#45]
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First witness for the State is essentially selling the sizzle. IOW, a PhD talking about how they will spend the winnings on wonderful treatment centers. Betting on the come for public consumption. |
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Posted: 5/29/2019 10:17:03 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not coming for your pain pills friend, so please take my post seriously. |
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Posted: 5/29/2019 10:23:58 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Opioids have been known as addictive for millennia. If the doctors said to everyone "I'm going to write you a prescription for X, it's pretty much like a really good heroin pill for your pain" it would be a different story. |
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Posted: 5/29/2019 10:24:29 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: State says JJ knowingly contributed to the creation of a public nuisance via deceptive trade practices. Asking for billions to fund remediation programs. Not asking for punative damages for past events.. |
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Posted: 5/29/2019 10:29:42 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have to disagree. There were called those things but, perhaps, "narcotics" was a more widespread term back in the 70's and 60's. Everyone knew even back then that there were addiction problems. Everyone had "that aunt" who had her "pain pills" and everyone rolled their eyes and knew what was up, even back then. You have to remember that the old people of today were collage kids in the 60's and everyone knew about drugs, prescription or otherwise and references to pain pills, uppers, and downers filled popular music. |
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Posted: 5/29/2019 10:33:32 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Marijuana is a schedule 1 narcotic. So is LSD. They're not addictive. Lots of pain pills aren't addictive either. When a doc prescribes something and doesn't warn you of the very real possibility of withdrawal there is an issue. The words addictive, opioid, opiate, narcotic, etc never crossed the doctor's lips in any of the cases where I was prescribed one. It's like saying that you have to be told that alcohol will get you drunk every-time the bartender hooks you up. We kind of already know. It's laughable to think that anyone living in the US after the 1990's did not know what Vicodin was and how addictive it could be. People were snorting that stuff in the 1960's for crying out loud. |
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