Definitely, in fact it's so good they will fight to keep it. And that too is intended.

When I was a teenager, I worked beside Juan (literally) for exactly the same low wage.  And worked just as hard.  Jobs like construction and building fence.  That’s how I learned Spanish.  

Why don’t modern teenagers do that?  

Under the table stuff....Hire someone to do a lawn project, cash. Hire a handyman to do x, y, z and he gives you a price break with cash. To be honest, I don't blame these people I'm not so sure they don't have it right in today's climate. The person that does the right things, works, provides for his/her family, etc is the one being taken advantage of and resentment is building rapidly. Oh and I'm not even going to start of people being downsized and laid off because someplace wants to turn another 2% in profit.

Some still do but granted it's less than it was. I suspect it has to do with another of factors, one being the nature of the work but I was more or less talking about not so hard of work. Clerk at the grocery store, stocker at Wal-Mart, burger-flipper, etc.

My son cleaned HVAC and dryer vents for three months and made $3500 one summer.

He makes almost the same per hour sitting in a lifeguard chair watching old lady's and kids swim at the YMCA. He learned manual labor for the same pay sucks.

He just made his best score on his practice private pilot practice test (93). If he can constantly score over a 90, he will take the actual FAA test.

If Kamala gets installed and they flood in another 20 million illegals a lot of people are going to be surprised about what happens.  These people will end up taking up pretty much every low to semi skilled job.  Think changing oil, tires and all the  low end work at the dealership. Think all the home health and CNA jobs.  Wages for anything low to mid will  go to shit with quickness.  Then they'll start working their way up the trades like Plumbing and HVAC.  Kiss that 200 dollars an hour trades job goodbye.

I probably can’t communicate well in a brief post, but imho, the problem is not wages.  It is costs.  Because small business owners that I know aren’t getting rich.  They are struggling too.  They aren’t just creaming it while keeping their employees wages down.  

And relevant to the topic, it’s not generally the mega corps who are running crews of illegals (absent maybe meat processing and certain farming ops).  It’s the little guys who are barely making it themselves.

What I mean by this, is that wages should be lower.  But so should costs of living.  It’s the rampant inflation that ruins it for everyone and throws the whole equation out of balance.

Small business owners can’t afford to pay more and make less.  Employees can’t afford to work for less.  It’s a cost of living problem.  Not a wage problem.

A lot of that is the inflation we’ve seen recently, but there are other factors as well that preceded that.

Democrats love slaves. Remember how mad they were when we took them away from them the first time?

I mostly agree with you on that, the real culprit is cost of living index but that's not just because of spike in inflation it's regulations, taxes, housing costs, education, etc. Everything costs way more now than 20, 30, 50 years ago. Now a two-income household income is required for a 'comfortable' lifestyle. Yes the business owner is being squeezed and labor is very likely his largest cost so of course he has to minimize that but he's only seeing it from his reference point, in his eyes the American worker should demand less money. The flip side is the worker views the owner as the issue because he demands more and more profit, this is part of the divide and conquer strategy.

IMO if we had more smaller companies and competion is the marketplace, combined with far less regulations, we'd see a healthier climate. Used to be the business owner would demand less corp taxes and less regulations but he's made a deal with the Feds to provide a never-ending stream of lower wage workers.

The average monthly salary in Haiti is around $150 to $200 USD per month for formal sector workers.

On an hourly basis, considering a standard eight-hour workday, the minimum wage translates to about 62.50 to 93.75 Haitian gourdes per hour, or approximately $0.625 to $0.9375 USD at early 2023 exchange rates.

Link

Yeah, I’d love to see an economic model where we pared back regulations, taxes, govt interference in general and just let the invisible hand of  free market capitalism do its thing.  

I wonder how big shot Mr. Employer will feel when his wife or daughter are raped or murdered, or both, by some of the sub human trash he loves so dearly? Will he wish it was done by an old white guy?

We should just take over Haiti, clean that shithole up and keep them in their own country. That would probably be cheaper in the long run.

Yes right - and a silly one at that. No doubt white people ARE being replaced but here's what's actually happening.

Person A and B are family members.

Person C is from the same tribe/race as person A & B.

Person D is from a different tribe/race.


Person A owns a business. His goal is to make the most for himself and his family. If all things were considered equal - person A would prefer to hire person C to person D but person C grew up in the richest, most prosperous nation in the history of mankind. If he had a high work ethic - he'd already be person A.  Person D grew up in a shithole and has had to work for everything he had. So Person A hires person D for lower wages and more economic output per dollar and gets the difference to keep for himself and his family.


Later on, person D's family grows up blaming racism for why their family doesn't have what the family of A & B have. They turn into a shithead second-generation immigrant and drag down society with them.


There's no "theory" - there's replacement reality where people are economically incentivized to hire cheap foreign labor for their own benefit. The only way to fix it is like all other "freeloading" issues in society and that's via the government.  Unfortunately, we're probably past the turning back point and Kamala being a nominee for President is indicative of that.

I own my own business and for the business to exist - I need 1-2 people doing menial labor tasks of put widget A in widget B. It's a job you can learn in a day with even average intellect but it's boring. I actually pay really well in the realm of $22-30/hr and am capable to find members of my tribe - but they've all demonstrated themselves to be garbage. I haven't hired third-worlders yet - I've instead handed this menial work off to other members of my team and myself claiming "we all have to take a bite of the shit sandwich."  ....but I bet one of these Haitans would do wonders.  A low-IQ poster here would say - "just pay more" - except that means my costs go up and I'd either have to raise my prices or shrink my profit to the point the business wouldn't be worth it and it would fold. If I raise my prices, my company will likely fold anyways since we're already competing with someone I know is hiring these types of people (I've heard illegals but don't know for certain) to do the exact same work.

We're in a global economy with global logistics. We need a guest worker program to take the benefit of the labor of these people without bringing in their second-generation, lazy, entitled, "everyone else is a racist" children.

Honestly, look at what the UAE and other rich Middle Eastern nations have accomplished in part due to their guest worker programs.

I'm all for the Free Market to do it's thing but we really don't have a free market system anymore. So before I'll concede the American worker is a spoiled, entitled asshat because he wants to be paid top dollar I always like to turn the tables a bit, we very much need to get away from an adversarial aspect of work and the business owner. Conversely the attitude that American's should match illegals and migrants in price is also wrong and will eventually going to get us into a full socialist environment. If both worker and owners wouldn't try to nickel and dime each other to death we could get somewhere.

The gov told whitey he deserves more n more n more. Now whitey wont work w/o stupid wages n ridiculous benefits. Whitey is being replaced.

People are shocked.  Im not.  

Go to work you lazy fucks

The free market won't work when it comes into immigration and labor.  The "freeloader" problem is the businesses will always want the most productivity per dollar while freeloading the costs of that labor onto society.  It's exactly why we're at where we are today.

Capitalism doesn't automatically answer everything.  It's like Libertarianism - perhaps the best model in theory but needs some other aspects to actually function.

I agree, there's a middle ground. Part of the reason why we got the growth of unions at the turn of t he century was the abuses of corporations. Also cut out welfare and most of the free-loading plans but you do need some sort of temporary safety net in place. Right now is a hard time for workers and business owners alike but I've experienced the abuses of mega-corp and their attempt to squeeze out and extra half a percent while increase C-suite bonuses three-fold one too many times. In a perfect world, mega-corps wouldn't be able to compete and exist with smaller, more agile small and medium-sized companies.

We ask and get asked that question all the time.

Degenerates that don't want to work can be incredibly resourceful and even creative when it comes to gaming the system and others.  Not to mention that some will do odd jobs when they need extra cash.  

20 years ago in my old starter home I'd get a couple guys knocking on my door once a week to take a tree down/clean my gutters/fix the flower beds/mow the yard/etc.  It's obvious they don't hold steady employment.

I agree - but who enforces the middle ground?  If I agree to pay you higher wages of X but my competitor hires these Haitans to work for X-Y and they put out more economic output per dollar - how long do you think this business will exist?

AI will likely only make this issue worse.

I agree it shouldn’t be adversarial.  I’m a huge fan of aligning incentives.  The company makes money, everybody makes money.  

The real challenge is that you have to provide a baseline/underwrite some of the risk for your employees.  Because they aren’t usually well placed to absorb down years.  So you can’t put all of their income at risk, with unlimited upside.  If you do, they are just forced to quit and find other employment in bad times.  They don’t really share the downside other than the inconvenience of finding a new job because they have nothing at stake.

But yeah, perfect company in my view pays a low base wage, and a huge bonus in good years.  Employment resembles ownership in reward structure, with some insurance to the downside.

Ironically that's how my business is structured with my key employees - salary + very large theoretical bonuses that it's to my benefit for them to meet. I don't really know how you could operate and find intelligent, educated Americans anymore and compete vs Globo MegaCorp using third-world labor in the third-world otherwise.

I guess the issue is that at some point as the work gets less rewarding, more repetitive, and more menial; the work people are doing doesn't really align with that because the people that do that sort of work aren't smart enough to realize how this structure would benefit them in the long-term.  ...and that's the we'll say 2 positions I need to fill that if I'm being honest - these Haitans would probably excel at while I openly acknowledge how many of their children will probably fuck up the fabric of American society as they grow up to hate us.

We’ve become a service economy. Why bust your ass for low pay in back breaking labor when you can work at a restaurant, get a free meal, and sit on your phone during down time? My company has always had issues staffing container unloading positions. Even the Spanish don’t stick around more than a few shifts. Our standard of living has been so good for so long we don’t have to accept busting our ass for low pay because we aren’t going to starve otherwise like the turdworlder’s country they fled.

It works well if you hire well.

My anecdote is as valid as yours, and the guys I've been working around don't stop, they just work their asses off all day long then ask for overtime on the weekends.

Because they're in sports all year now.

A lot of these issues are our (American's) own creation. Then the government came in and made it worse.

Hiring illegals and saying you want more OVER Americans.

That's so un-American.

These business owners who profit from America...

Give ZERO f's about Americans.

They would have NO PROBLEM with employees being slaves if it were legal.

It's time to just stop buying stuff.

Yes, the .gov is causing the problem.

But these business owners are ACTIVELY employing these people, welcoming their .gov money, etc.

Agreed.  Also, summer holiday is short now.  

I could never have afforded to go to college if I couldn’t have worked a full three months in summer.

25 years ago I worked at a relative's farm. One of the largest in the country.

They had one team of basically high-school students that I was a part of and a couple teams of migrant workers (almost certainly illegals) doing shifts as well during the harvest season.

None of these all-white, all-American high school students were what I'd consider lazy and yet the illegals consistently harvested roughly double what we did.

The number of enrolled students who work part time jobs has never been lower.  I've got a Brookings Institute survey that spans the last 60 years.  In the 70's half of teens held part-time jobs.  By '96 (year I graduated) that percentage was 36%.  IIRC, the last data set was 2020 and that percentage was under 10%


#1  Most teenagers are an anxiety-ridden mess.  EVERYTHING gives them "anxiety".  They don't want to drive, They don't want to work around strangers, They cannot handle any form of constructive criticism.

#2  Many well-intentioned parents want their kid to focus on academics.  They also believe that not making their teen work as they had to makes for a better life.

The truth of the matter is (backed by peer-reviewed studies) that teens who work steady part-time jobs at 15-20 hrs/week: are better communicators, more easily adapt to situations, have better time management skills, understand the importance of teamwork, are more fiscally responsible, and show improved critical thinking/problem solving abilities.

IMO, parents need to take their kids out of their comfort zone.  They need to learn to deal with stress, not shrink away from it (and quit taking fucking pills to smooth things over).  They have to learn how to work with and interact with people they don't know.

Call it what you want. You can have that view and then your business simply won't exist because business B will do exactly what you're bitching about so yours never gets off the ground in the first place or quickly goes under.

Idealism vs reality.

You're right, we need to solve this problem. The first thought is don't make the Haitian/migrate an option, maybe be creative on shifts and/or times so you can use HS/College-age kids with limited work experience. Granted the nature of the work is going to turn off a lot of native-born types but the same argument was a thing back in the 90's with manufacturing. We still have (granted a much smaller,) clothing manufacturing here in the US in more rural areas where wages and opportunities are lower.

AI and automation is going to create issues in the white-collar community, it already is. Are we all going to become either entrepreneurs or service clerks, the trades have mostly been taken over and STEM is out due to H1B's. At some point we have to have more of a holistic approach and chances are, labor rates will always be more here in the US. Start cutting out Corp tax burdens, regulations and Corp welfare programs like H1B's and lets see where we are.

My experience with apparel is that it typically uses immigrant labor. Not only is this the case with why LA was basically the hub for that type of work - it's the same thing in Italy.

It's the case in Canada where company's like Arc'teryx used Asian labor. It's the case in Italy where largely immigrant migrant labor makes the luxury products in Italy so they can slap the "made in Italy" labor on it.

In any event - I'm not sure what the solution is but my gut shot would be guest worker programs that I saw used to great effect during my 15 years in the Middle East.  They have almost none of the second-generation "retained third-world immigrant" societal problems.  No doubt we have to completely eliminate the joke that is "birthright citizenship."

Because they're told they are too good for that. They are going to college and their parents pay for sports camps instead of insisting they get a part time job.
Another reason is Juan treats working fast food as his career. He ain't going anywhere.

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This used to be pensions and the like and I do agree, however that same "low wage" is going to be simply more than hiring one of these migrants. You're not going to get a plumber for $25 an hour but when you have Juan that has no accreditation, no insurance and/or very little overhead you can. You have to level that playing field.

The market should be a playing field and establishes what a normal wage is in whatever market. If I'm a owner if left to my own to set what that "low wage" is of course I'm going to set it as low as I can get my cheapest worker which is like these Haitians. No blue-collar American born worker can compete with that regardless of how hard they do/don't do.

Our work-based learning students are limited to 4hours/week.  I've met with a few employers who will stack them (1 in the AM, 1in the PM) to "make" a full time employee.  It can work and it has, but you're training 2 instead of 1 so costs are up slightly.  In some positions, the lack of continuity can cause production issues.  

More automation is on the horizon.  The costs are coming down, but the initial capital outlay can still be staggering if you're re-engineering multiple lines.  You'll need more industrial maintenance techs (which is a booming trade).

With the exception of services, we compete globally.

This isn’t going to change.  People think tariffs solve it, but they don’t.  They are just a tax that is passed on to consumers, and goes to fund every bigger government.  

Unfortunately reality, is that those good old times aren’t coming back.  

He's forgetting that the Haitians are legal and are paid the same base pay as a native.  


Your mid and large size animal processors utilize illegals.  No US-born person wants those jobs, even with hourly pay far above the area average.  I'm not condoning it, but it's the primary reason I refuse to recruit or incentivize meat processor industries.

You know this how?

Sounds awful lot  like a stakeholder model over a shareholder model.

The federal gov made them legal immigrant workers.  As a result, they are protected by the same labor laws we are.

Companies that utilize legal migrant labor must pay them the same base pay as anyone else.  The DoL checks their payroll and wages as does Immigration Dept.  Same way they do for H1 and H2B workers.

This is exactly what’s happening.  If he was paying $20 per hour before, he likely was approached and asked if he preferred getting $10 per hour back in return for giving the jobs to Haitians.

Mostly this.  Seems a lot like slavery "lite".

Why wouldn't an employer like that?

My experience right now,  my local white boys are lazy lying pos . Juan is awesome.

I don't disagree with any of that, working after school/weekends was what you did as a teenager. 10-15hrs a week even teaches you a LOT of things that benefits you later in life. On my local FB page there's always posts looking for jobs for their HS-aged kid or a kid themselves offering babysitting, car-washing, etc services but granted I don't like in a 'normal' area like most do. IMO we really, really need to encourage more of this and if business owners would try to hire more including interns/appetencies (knowing they'll have to train,) we'd all be better off.

Can be both.  When the company does well, the owners (shareholders) do well, and so do the employees.

When it does poorly, they both share in the pain.

Kamala's plan is to bring them all here.  

It will be close to 100 million as China and Russia have figured out that they can destabilize the West by flooding them with third world "refugees", and its low cost for them to help move them. Europe will get 200 million more.

As mentioned a few times already, MANY of our current problems are self-caused.  Victims of our own prosperity.