Federal Court Strikes Down NFA Registration on "untaxed" firearms (Page 114 of 195)
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Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: What you "fail to grasp" is that all of this has a significant gray area over which the ATF has more or less uncontested authority. To do business, FFLs enter a deal with the devil. They can only do what the ATF says they can, how the ATF says they can. It's Simon Says, but with a giant regulatory gun pointed at your head. The ATF can require and enforce documentation requirements that exist outside of the court order (just like they do with every other codified law), and they have a long and established history of torpedoing FFLs for clerical errors. There's nothing in this court order that says ATF can't require FFLs to do X, Y, and Z to report the removal of an NFA item from the NFRTR, nor is there anything protecting FFLs if the ATF decides that wasn't done correctly. I think we have the right guys in the Oval Office, the AG office, and the ATF Director's office, but there are still hostile parties within the ATF, and enforcement policies can change with the flip of a switch with the next administration. Either way, it's not smart for FFLs to process ATF legal documents in a manner for which they have no instructions from the ATF. Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: Originally Posted By carbineone1964: Just have to love all these internet warriors wanting a FFL to go pout on a limb for them on. Risking their business, Family, and want them to possibly be imprisoned for you. I know full well that all these so called warriors will fold at the of the ATF on their knees. If actually confronted with the threat of losing all in their lives as they know it. They would turn on other people even to regain their lives back from the ATF. Yes there may be a few that would actually fight back. Maybe ones with lives so pathetic that they are loners and have nothing to lose anyway. I assure you 99 .9 percent of the warriors are all BS talk and would do anything once confronted, except beg for forgiveness, and go back to their homes and Family's. Friend has a Gun Shop and no he would never risk his lively hood for your urge to get a Suppressor just for the simple fact of it has no paperwork, until this is all straightened out. . If you do not want paper work, then just roll your own. Great if this all works out for some. But I am afraid for most. The free stamps are going to remain the best option in the end. Until we actually get Legislative repeal of the NFA. Nothing is going to change at the ATF. What you are missing is that it already has been "straightened out." There is a very clear and well reasoned order from a federal judge. He is the authority here, not some simp on the ATF payroll. Except it hasn't. Everything an FFL does with firearms and NFA items is based on written guidelines from the ATF. Those guidelines, related to this injunction, do NOT exist yet. You should revisit this post: https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Federal-Court-Strikes-Down-NFA-Registration-on-untaxed-firearms/5-2853946/?page=111#i117428947 The ATF can absolutely comply with the judge's order while simultaneously ass-blasting FFLs and ruining lives for logging NFA items incorrectly. How do FFLs log these transactions correctly? Nobody knows yet. Running these transactions without knowing the DOJ's interpretation of the ruling and without having anything in writing from the ATF is insanely risky. What you fail to grasp is that administrative guidelines from ATF are meaningless in the face of a court order. If they attempt to enforce the challenged provisions, they are in contempt of court and can go to jail. It does not matter what "DOJs interpretation of the ruling" is. It is not difficult to know how to proceed here. I have posted it repeatedly in this thread. The NFA requirements are enjoined. The FFL needs to treat the suppressor like any other GCA firearm: 4473, bound book, etc. What you "fail to grasp" is that all of this has a significant gray area over which the ATF has more or less uncontested authority. To do business, FFLs enter a deal with the devil. They can only do what the ATF says they can, how the ATF says they can. It's Simon Says, but with a giant regulatory gun pointed at your head. The ATF can require and enforce documentation requirements that exist outside of the court order (just like they do with every other codified law), and they have a long and established history of torpedoing FFLs for clerical errors. There's nothing in this court order that says ATF can't require FFLs to do X, Y, and Z to report the removal of an NFA item from the NFRTR, nor is there anything protecting FFLs if the ATF decides that wasn't done correctly. I think we have the right guys in the Oval Office, the AG office, and the ATF Director's office, but there are still hostile parties within the ATF, and enforcement policies can change with the flip of a switch with the next administration. Either way, it's not smart for FFLs to process ATF legal documents in a manner for which they have no instructions from the ATF. Damn son you've been saying the same shit for days and days |
Carry it, shoot it. (repeat forever)
Swing Your Sword
Swing Your Sword
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Originally Posted By graysonp: The plantiff listed says "The Silencer Shop Foundation" and includes all customers, present and future. I have never bought anything from The Silencer Shop Foundation, but I have from Silencer Shop. Does it say in the judgement that I am a plantiff? It's an honest question, I don't know the answer and haven't seen it from reading the judgement for myself. Originally Posted By graysonp: Originally Posted By X-CaptHook: The ATF doesn’t have the authority to decide who the plaintiffs are in the Silencer Shop case. Stop giving them more power than they think they already have. The plantiff listed says "The Silencer Shop Foundation" and includes all customers, present and future. I have never bought anything from The Silencer Shop Foundation, but I have from Silencer Shop. Does it say in the judgement that I am a plantiff? It's an honest question, I don't know the answer and haven't seen it from reading the judgement for myself. You do realize that if there was any doubt in your mind, you can join the Silencer Shop Foundation for a one dollar contribution today. |
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Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: In which states are you licensed to practice law, sir? Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: Originally Posted By carbineone1964: Just have to love all these internet warriors wanting a FFL to go pout on a limb for them on. Risking their business, Family, and want them to possibly be imprisoned for you. I know full well that all these so called warriors will fold at the of the ATF on their knees. If actually confronted with the threat of losing all in their lives as they know it. They would turn on other people even to regain their lives back from the ATF. Yes there may be a few that would actually fight back. Maybe ones with lives so pathetic that they are loners and have nothing to lose anyway. I assure you 99 .9 percent of the warriors are all BS talk and would do anything once confronted, except beg for forgiveness, and go back to their homes and Family's. Friend has a Gun Shop and no he would never risk his lively hood for your urge to get a Suppressor just for the simple fact of it has no paperwork, until this is all straightened out. . If you do not want paper work, then just roll your own. Great if this all works out for some. But I am afraid for most. The free stamps are going to remain the best option in the end. Until we actually get Legislative repeal of the NFA. Nothing is going to change at the ATF. What you are missing is that it already has been "straightened out." There is a very clear and well reasoned order from a federal judge. He is the authority here, not some simp on the ATF payroll. Except it hasn't. Everything an FFL does with firearms and NFA items is based on written guidelines from the ATF. Those guidelines, related to this injunction, do NOT exist yet. You should revisit this post: https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Federal-Court-Strikes-Down-NFA-Registration-on-untaxed-firearms/5-2853946/?page=111#i117428947 The ATF can absolutely comply with the judge's order while simultaneously ass-blasting FFLs and ruining lives for logging NFA items incorrectly. How do FFLs log these transactions correctly? Nobody knows yet. Running these transactions without knowing the DOJ's interpretation of the ruling and without having anything in writing from the ATF is insanely risky. What you fail to grasp is that administrative guidelines from ATF are meaningless in the face of a court order. If they attempt to enforce the challenged provisions, they are in contempt of court and can go to jail. It does not matter what "DOJs interpretation of the ruling" is. It is not difficult to know how to proceed here. I have posted it repeatedly in this thread. The NFA requirements are enjoined. The FFL needs to treat the suppressor like any other GCA firearm: 4473, bound book, etc. What you "fail to grasp" is that all of this has a significant gray area over which the ATF has more or less uncontested authority. To do business, FFLs enter a deal with the devil. They can only do what the ATF says they can, how the ATF says they can. It's Simon Says, but with a giant regulatory gun pointed at your head. The ATF can require and enforce documentation requirements that exist outside of the court order (just like they do with every other codified law), and they have a long and established history of torpedoing FFLs for clerical errors. There's nothing in this court order that says ATF can't require FFLs to do X, Y, and Z to report the removal of an NFA item from the NFRTR, nor is there anything protecting FFLs if the ATF decides that wasn't done correctly. I think we have the right guys in the Oval Office, the AG office, and the ATF Director's office, but there are still hostile parties within the ATF, and enforcement policies can change with the flip of a switch with the next administration. Either way, it's not smart for FFLs to process ATF legal documents in a manner for which they have no instructions from the ATF. In which states are you licensed to practice law, sir? To be the devil's advocate I'd ask how much it would cost to hire you if the local ATF field office reacted to this improperly due to a lack of guidance and shuttered his business, and what would the chances of success be to get those lost funds back by suing the gov't? |
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Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: In which states are you licensed to practice law, sir? Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: Originally Posted By carbineone1964: Just have to love all these internet warriors wanting a FFL to go pout on a limb for them on. Risking their business, Family, and want them to possibly be imprisoned for you. I know full well that all these so called warriors will fold at the of the ATF on their knees. If actually confronted with the threat of losing all in their lives as they know it. They would turn on other people even to regain their lives back from the ATF. Yes there may be a few that would actually fight back. Maybe ones with lives so pathetic that they are loners and have nothing to lose anyway. I assure you 99 .9 percent of the warriors are all BS talk and would do anything once confronted, except beg for forgiveness, and go back to their homes and Family's. Friend has a Gun Shop and no he would never risk his lively hood for your urge to get a Suppressor just for the simple fact of it has no paperwork, until this is all straightened out. . If you do not want paper work, then just roll your own. Great if this all works out for some. But I am afraid for most. The free stamps are going to remain the best option in the end. Until we actually get Legislative repeal of the NFA. Nothing is going to change at the ATF. What you are missing is that it already has been "straightened out." There is a very clear and well reasoned order from a federal judge. He is the authority here, not some simp on the ATF payroll. Except it hasn't. Everything an FFL does with firearms and NFA items is based on written guidelines from the ATF. Those guidelines, related to this injunction, do NOT exist yet. You should revisit this post: https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Federal-Court-Strikes-Down-NFA-Registration-on-untaxed-firearms/5-2853946/?page=111#i117428947 The ATF can absolutely comply with the judge's order while simultaneously ass-blasting FFLs and ruining lives for logging NFA items incorrectly. How do FFLs log these transactions correctly? Nobody knows yet. Running these transactions without knowing the DOJ's interpretation of the ruling and without having anything in writing from the ATF is insanely risky. What you fail to grasp is that administrative guidelines from ATF are meaningless in the face of a court order. If they attempt to enforce the challenged provisions, they are in contempt of court and can go to jail. It does not matter what "DOJs interpretation of the ruling" is. It is not difficult to know how to proceed here. I have posted it repeatedly in this thread. The NFA requirements are enjoined. The FFL needs to treat the suppressor like any other GCA firearm: 4473, bound book, etc. What you "fail to grasp" is that all of this has a significant gray area over which the ATF has more or less uncontested authority. To do business, FFLs enter a deal with the devil. They can only do what the ATF says they can, how the ATF says they can. It's Simon Says, but with a giant regulatory gun pointed at your head. The ATF can require and enforce documentation requirements that exist outside of the court order (just like they do with every other codified law), and they have a long and established history of torpedoing FFLs for clerical errors. There's nothing in this court order that says ATF can't require FFLs to do X, Y, and Z to report the removal of an NFA item from the NFRTR, nor is there anything protecting FFLs if the ATF decides that wasn't done correctly. I think we have the right guys in the Oval Office, the AG office, and the ATF Director's office, but there are still hostile parties within the ATF, and enforcement policies can change with the flip of a switch with the next administration. Either way, it's not smart for FFLs to process ATF legal documents in a manner for which they have no instructions from the ATF. In which states are you licensed to practice law, sir? How many ATF audits have you seen? |
"Sometimes, the grass is greener because it's on a septic system."
"Sporterizing: The art of spending $700 on a $300 gun to make it worth $200." -GTwannabe
"Sporterizing: The art of spending $700 on a $300 gun to make it worth $200." -GTwannabe
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Originally Posted By FJB247: I see you are actually selling cans with just the 4473. How far are you from Citrus County? Originally Posted By FJB247: Originally Posted By Cypher214: Yes, I was referring to central time. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/4019/IMG_9074_jpeg-3812793.JPG I see you are actually selling cans with just the 4473. How far are you from Citrus County? |
Everything posted above is factual. Maybe.
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Originally Posted By lorazepam: Do you guys still have to have a carry permit for open carry? Originally Posted By lorazepam: Originally Posted By Cypher214: Your metric should be worrying about your state's shit laws. Do you guys still have to have a carry permit for open carry? |
Everything posted above is factual. Maybe.
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Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: What you are missing is that it already has been "straightened out." There is a very clear and well reasoned order from a federal judge. He is the authority here, not some simp on the ATF payroll. Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: Originally Posted By carbineone1964: Just have to love all these internet warriors wanting a FFL to go pout on a limb for them on. Risking their business, Family, and want them to possibly be imprisoned for you. I know full well that all these so called warriors will fold at the of the ATF on their knees. If actually confronted with the threat of losing all in their lives as they know it. They would turn on other people even to regain their lives back from the ATF. Yes there may be a few that would actually fight back. Maybe ones with lives so pathetic that they are loners and have nothing to lose anyway. I assure you 99 .9 percent of the warriors are all BS talk and would do anything once confronted, except beg for forgiveness, and go back to their homes and Family's. Friend has a Gun Shop and no he would never risk his lively hood for your urge to get a Suppressor just for the simple fact of it has no paperwork, until this is all straightened out. . If you do not want paper work, then just roll your own. Great if this all works out for some. But I am afraid for most. The free stamps are going to remain the best option in the end. Until we actually get Legislative repeal of the NFA. Nothing is going to change at the ATF. What you are missing is that it already has been "straightened out." There is a very clear and well reasoned order from a federal judge. He is the authority here, not some simp on the ATF payroll. |
Everything posted above is factual. Maybe.
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Originally Posted By VacaDuck: 17 hour print time. Originally Posted By VacaDuck: Originally Posted By apierce918: That would take me 5 days, I would be so anxious Mine is moving a lot slower, I’m using 300blkfde settings, but maybe I’ll send one off with default Bambu, besides bumping nozzle temp. |
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Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: How many ATF audits have you seen? Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: Originally Posted By carbineone1964: Just have to love all these internet warriors wanting a FFL to go pout on a limb for them on. Risking their business, Family, and want them to possibly be imprisoned for you. I know full well that all these so called warriors will fold at the of the ATF on their knees. If actually confronted with the threat of losing all in their lives as they know it. They would turn on other people even to regain their lives back from the ATF. Yes there may be a few that would actually fight back. Maybe ones with lives so pathetic that they are loners and have nothing to lose anyway. I assure you 99 .9 percent of the warriors are all BS talk and would do anything once confronted, except beg for forgiveness, and go back to their homes and Family's. Friend has a Gun Shop and no he would never risk his lively hood for your urge to get a Suppressor just for the simple fact of it has no paperwork, until this is all straightened out. . If you do not want paper work, then just roll your own. Great if this all works out for some. But I am afraid for most. The free stamps are going to remain the best option in the end. Until we actually get Legislative repeal of the NFA. Nothing is going to change at the ATF. What you are missing is that it already has been "straightened out." There is a very clear and well reasoned order from a federal judge. He is the authority here, not some simp on the ATF payroll. Except it hasn't. Everything an FFL does with firearms and NFA items is based on written guidelines from the ATF. Those guidelines, related to this injunction, do NOT exist yet. You should revisit this post: https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Federal-Court-Strikes-Down-NFA-Registration-on-untaxed-firearms/5-2853946/?page=111#i117428947 The ATF can absolutely comply with the judge's order while simultaneously ass-blasting FFLs and ruining lives for logging NFA items incorrectly. How do FFLs log these transactions correctly? Nobody knows yet. Running these transactions without knowing the DOJ's interpretation of the ruling and without having anything in writing from the ATF is insanely risky. What you fail to grasp is that administrative guidelines from ATF are meaningless in the face of a court order. If they attempt to enforce the challenged provisions, they are in contempt of court and can go to jail. It does not matter what "DOJs interpretation of the ruling" is. It is not difficult to know how to proceed here. I have posted it repeatedly in this thread. The NFA requirements are enjoined. The FFL needs to treat the suppressor like any other GCA firearm: 4473, bound book, etc. What you "fail to grasp" is that all of this has a significant gray area over which the ATF has more or less uncontested authority. To do business, FFLs enter a deal with the devil. They can only do what the ATF says they can, how the ATF says they can. It's Simon Says, but with a giant regulatory gun pointed at your head. The ATF can require and enforce documentation requirements that exist outside of the court order (just like they do with every other codified law), and they have a long and established history of torpedoing FFLs for clerical errors. There's nothing in this court order that says ATF can't require FFLs to do X, Y, and Z to report the removal of an NFA item from the NFRTR, nor is there anything protecting FFLs if the ATF decides that wasn't done correctly. I think we have the right guys in the Oval Office, the AG office, and the ATF Director's office, but there are still hostile parties within the ATF, and enforcement policies can change with the flip of a switch with the next administration. Either way, it's not smart for FFLs to process ATF legal documents in a manner for which they have no instructions from the ATF. In which states are you licensed to practice law, sir? How many ATF audits have you seen? I have seen several. AFT can go fuck itself and I look forward to watching their peepees get smacked for violating the Injunction. IOIs aren't going to bayonet you like a redcoat would. Freedom cannot exist without brave men. |
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SC, USA
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Originally Posted By ParityError: I've just finished dealing with a bunch of medical shit that has moved shooting stuff back to the back burner since the end of last year. That stuff is happily over, so I just bought a .22 / 5.7 can. I'm waiting for 9/1 to order a 9mm or .45 can (haven't decided which) since Florida's tax holiday. on outdoor stuff (including cans this year) starts then. Then I'll donate the 7% i would have paid on the can to GOA. Win / win / win for the win. Hell yeah, brother! |
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Originally Posted By X-CaptHook: You do realize that if there was any doubt in your mind, you can join the Silencer Shop Foundation for a one dollar contribution today. I'm not concerned with my eligibility. I'm making a point that thousands of people assume they're in the plaintiff group, yet there's a very simple question that I've not seen an answer to that makes it questionable. |
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Originally Posted By shadycoh: 2 more weeks Originally Posted By shadycoh: Originally Posted By M855Bukkake: Well, it's Monday, and Mr. AFT Man is still hiding. No guidance or statements I have seen. 2 more weeks |
Everything posted above is factual. Maybe.
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Originally Posted By graysonp: I'm not concerned with my eligibility. I'm making a point that thousands of people assume they're in the plaintiff group, yet there's a very simple question that I've not seen an answer to that makes it questionable. Originally Posted By graysonp: Originally Posted By X-CaptHook: You do realize that if there was any doubt in your mind, you can join the Silencer Shop Foundation for a one dollar contribution today. I'm not concerned with my eligibility. I'm making a point that thousands of people assume they're in the plaintiff group, yet there's a very simple question that I've not seen an answer to that makes it questionable. What are we going to do? Have to provide proof of membership to say, GOA to purchase a suppressor? Will FBI NICs have another column added to the database for membership reference and will various groups provide membership lists to the FBI for background checks (no, they won't). |
“Liberalism, the noble annihilator, has hollowed out every institution, every binding force, every social failsafe and backstop, and its agents feign surprise when the liberating infanticide it promotes is taken to its next logical step.”
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Originally Posted By Advance: You just know this is coming... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/309598/HPzXCsrXwAAvq1f_jpeg-3812836.JPG $400 for a Costco can? Nah fam. For that price, I’m out |
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Originally Posted By Advance: You just know this is coming... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/309598/HPzXCsrXwAAvq1f_jpeg-3812836.JPG Clearly AI, because Costco would force you to buy a six pack of them. |
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Originally Posted By Cypher214: Despite what we want, I doubt anybody was seriously working on this over the weekend so ATF/DOJ had to get together at 8AM EDT this morning to come up with a plan. I don't expect any sort of announcement to come by lunchtime if they're figuring out how to do this the right way. If they're going to wag their weiners at the court and say "business as usual, fuck you", then they would have said that early and I'm talking about an official announcement, not what some dealer claims his local guy said. what about the now around 10 days they had to work on it from when the judge made his ruling Oh ya you just need to make it sound good for your case. |
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Originally Posted By Cypher214: Despite what we want, I doubt anybody was seriously working on this over the weekend so ATF/DOJ had to get together at 8AM EDT this morning to come up with a plan. I don't expect any sort of announcement to come by lunchtime if they're figuring out how to do this the right way. If they're going to wag their weiners at the court and say "business as usual, fuck you", then they would have said that early and I'm talking about an official announcement, not what some dealer claims his local guy said. I don't expect a statement at all, ever. The silence is having nearly the same effect as law. |
"My battery is low and it's getting dark."
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Originally Posted By Freakinout: Damn son you've been saying the same shit for days and days Originally Posted By Freakinout: Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: Originally Posted By carbineone1964: Just have to love all these internet warriors wanting a FFL to go pout on a limb for them on. Risking their business, Family, and want them to possibly be imprisoned for you. I know full well that all these so called warriors will fold at the of the ATF on their knees. If actually confronted with the threat of losing all in their lives as they know it. They would turn on other people even to regain their lives back from the ATF. Yes there may be a few that would actually fight back. Maybe ones with lives so pathetic that they are loners and have nothing to lose anyway. I assure you 99 .9 percent of the warriors are all BS talk and would do anything once confronted, except beg for forgiveness, and go back to their homes and Family's. Friend has a Gun Shop and no he would never risk his lively hood for your urge to get a Suppressor just for the simple fact of it has no paperwork, until this is all straightened out. . If you do not want paper work, then just roll your own. Great if this all works out for some. But I am afraid for most. The free stamps are going to remain the best option in the end. Until we actually get Legislative repeal of the NFA. Nothing is going to change at the ATF. What you are missing is that it already has been "straightened out." There is a very clear and well reasoned order from a federal judge. He is the authority here, not some simp on the ATF payroll. Except it hasn't. Everything an FFL does with firearms and NFA items is based on written guidelines from the ATF. Those guidelines, related to this injunction, do NOT exist yet. You should revisit this post: https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Federal-Court-Strikes-Down-NFA-Registration-on-untaxed-firearms/5-2853946/?page=111#i117428947 The ATF can absolutely comply with the judge's order while simultaneously ass-blasting FFLs and ruining lives for logging NFA items incorrectly. How do FFLs log these transactions correctly? Nobody knows yet. Running these transactions without knowing the DOJ's interpretation of the ruling and without having anything in writing from the ATF is insanely risky. What you fail to grasp is that administrative guidelines from ATF are meaningless in the face of a court order. If they attempt to enforce the challenged provisions, they are in contempt of court and can go to jail. It does not matter what "DOJs interpretation of the ruling" is. It is not difficult to know how to proceed here. I have posted it repeatedly in this thread. The NFA requirements are enjoined. The FFL needs to treat the suppressor like any other GCA firearm: 4473, bound book, etc. What you "fail to grasp" is that all of this has a significant gray area over which the ATF has more or less uncontested authority. To do business, FFLs enter a deal with the devil. They can only do what the ATF says they can, how the ATF says they can. It's Simon Says, but with a giant regulatory gun pointed at your head. The ATF can require and enforce documentation requirements that exist outside of the court order (just like they do with every other codified law), and they have a long and established history of torpedoing FFLs for clerical errors. There's nothing in this court order that says ATF can't require FFLs to do X, Y, and Z to report the removal of an NFA item from the NFRTR, nor is there anything protecting FFLs if the ATF decides that wasn't done correctly. I think we have the right guys in the Oval Office, the AG office, and the ATF Director's office, but there are still hostile parties within the ATF, and enforcement policies can change with the flip of a switch with the next administration. Either way, it's not smart for FFLs to process ATF legal documents in a manner for which they have no instructions from the ATF. Damn son you've been saying the same shit for days and days This thread is full of people bashing gun shops for not playing with fire in the middle of a drought. My point is that gun shops aren't the problem here. |
"Sometimes, the grass is greener because it's on a septic system."
"Sporterizing: The art of spending $700 on a $300 gun to make it worth $200." -GTwannabe
"Sporterizing: The art of spending $700 on a $300 gun to make it worth $200." -GTwannabe
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Originally Posted By wgjhsafT: What are we going to do? Have to provide proof of membership to say, GOA to purchase a suppressor? Will FBI NICs have another column added to the database for membership reference and will various groups provide membership lists to the FBI for background checks (no, they won't). The ATF could very well require FFLs to document proof of the customer being within the plaintiff group. The court order prevents them from enforcing the NFA provisions against the plaintiff group, but that doesn't mean that FFLs can just sell to anyone and claim they all qualify. I'm no lawyer, but I seriously doubt that an ATF requirement for FFL's to document their eligibility in the plaintiff group would be considered contempt. |
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Originally Posted By shadycoh: what about the now around 10 days they had to work on it from when the judge made his ruling Oh ya you just need to make it sound good for your case. Originally Posted By shadycoh: Originally Posted By Cypher214: Despite what we want, I doubt anybody was seriously working on this over the weekend so ATF/DOJ had to get together at 8AM EDT this morning to come up with a plan. I don't expect any sort of announcement to come by lunchtime if they're figuring out how to do this the right way. If they're going to wag their weiners at the court and say "business as usual, fuck you", then they would have said that early and I'm talking about an official announcement, not what some dealer claims his local guy said. what about the now around 10 days they had to work on it from when the judge made his ruling Oh ya you just need to make it sound good for your case. |
Everything posted above is factual. Maybe.
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Originally Posted By ODA_564: CCRKBA is a Jensen plaintiff. As of today I'm a GOA - FPC - SAF - CCRKBA member. https://ccrkba.org/ |
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*** NRA Endowment Life Member *** VCDL Member *** TN Squire ***
*** NRA Endowment Life Member *** VCDL Member *** TN Squire ***
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Originally Posted By mancow: I don't expect a statement at all, ever. The silence is having nearly the same effect as law. Originally Posted By mancow: Originally Posted By Cypher214: Despite what we want, I doubt anybody was seriously working on this over the weekend so ATF/DOJ had to get together at 8AM EDT this morning to come up with a plan. I don't expect any sort of announcement to come by lunchtime if they're figuring out how to do this the right way. If they're going to wag their weiners at the court and say "business as usual, fuck you", then they would have said that early and I'm talking about an official announcement, not what some dealer claims his local guy said. I don't expect a statement at all, ever. The silence is having nearly the same effect as law. |
Everything posted above is factual. Maybe.
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Originally Posted By scuba_steve: Clearly AI, because Costco would force you to buy a six pack of them. Originally Posted By scuba_steve: Originally Posted By Advance: You just know this is coming... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/309598/HPzXCsrXwAAvq1f_jpeg-3812836.JPG Clearly AI, because Costco would force you to buy a six pack of them. You say that like it would be a bad thing 6 cans for $399? Take my fucking money! |
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Originally Posted By wgjhsafT: What are we going to do? Have to provide proof of membership to say, GOA to purchase a suppressor? Will FBI NICs have another column added to the database for membership reference and will various groups provide membership lists to the FBI for background checks (no, they won't). NICS and the background checks have nothing to do with this. How they verify someone is a member of one of the plaintiffs for the purposes of being able to sell you a suppressor with only a 4473 and how to document it is a valid question, but that has nothing to do with whether you get the background check or not, or if it’s part of the background check. |
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Originally Posted By Cypher214: Despite what we want, I doubt anybody was seriously working on this over the weekend so ATF/DOJ had to get together at 8AM EDT this morning to come up with a plan. I don't expect any sort of announcement to come by lunchtime if they're figuring out how to do this the right way. If they're going to wag their weiners at the court and say "business as usual, fuck you", then they would have said that early and I'm talking about an official announcement, not what some dealer claims his local guy said. Originally Posted By Cypher214: Originally Posted By shadycoh: Originally Posted By M855Bukkake: Well, it's Monday, and Mr. AFT Man is still hiding. No guidance or statements I have seen. 2 more weeks This is where I'm at. Field offices and IOI's should've been telling any shops asking for clarification that updated guidelines are coming, rather than "business as usual." But I'm fairly certain the mother ship wasn't communicating very well with the various offices and agents. Motherfucking feds never talk to each, that's how you get seven different agencies are all infiltrating the same honeypot organization set up by yet another alphabet agency. 
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Originally Posted By X-CaptHook: You do realize that if there was any doubt in your mind, you can join the Silencer Shop Foundation for a one dollar contribution today. I didn't see a "join" but I did send 20 bucks their way. |
"NEVER worry about betraying your workplace, because given the chance, your workplace will DEFINITELY betray you! Loyalty to individuals, relationships, that's what makes the world go around."
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Originally Posted By wgjhsafT: What are we going to do? Have to provide proof of membership to say, GOA to purchase a suppressor? Will FBI NICs have another column added to the database for membership reference and will various groups provide membership lists to the FBI for background checks (no, they won't). Originally Posted By wgjhsafT: Originally Posted By graysonp: Originally Posted By X-CaptHook: You do realize that if there was any doubt in your mind, you can join the Silencer Shop Foundation for a one dollar contribution today. I'm not concerned with my eligibility. I'm making a point that thousands of people assume they're in the plaintiff group, yet there's a very simple question that I've not seen an answer to that makes it questionable. What are we going to do? Have to provide proof of membership to say, GOA to purchase a suppressor? Will FBI NICs have another column added to the database for membership reference and will various groups provide membership lists to the FBI for background checks (no, they won't). If DOJ/ATF is going to enforce a 2-tier system where some people are eligible and others are not, then some kind of documentation of proof will almost certainly be required. It's another one of those policy issues people are waiting on. |
"Sometimes, the grass is greener because it's on a septic system."
"Sporterizing: The art of spending $700 on a $300 gun to make it worth $200." -GTwannabe
"Sporterizing: The art of spending $700 on a $300 gun to make it worth $200." -GTwannabe
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Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: This thread is full of people bashing gun shops for not playing with fire in the middle of a drought. My point is that gun shops aren't the problem here. Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: Originally Posted By Freakinout: Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: Originally Posted By carbineone1964: Just have to love all these internet warriors wanting a FFL to go pout on a limb for them on. Risking their business, Family, and want them to possibly be imprisoned for you. I know full well that all these so called warriors will fold at the of the ATF on their knees. If actually confronted with the threat of losing all in their lives as they know it. They would turn on other people even to regain their lives back from the ATF. Yes there may be a few that would actually fight back. Maybe ones with lives so pathetic that they are loners and have nothing to lose anyway. I assure you 99 .9 percent of the warriors are all BS talk and would do anything once confronted, except beg for forgiveness, and go back to their homes and Family's. Friend has a Gun Shop and no he would never risk his lively hood for your urge to get a Suppressor just for the simple fact of it has no paperwork, until this is all straightened out. . If you do not want paper work, then just roll your own. Great if this all works out for some. But I am afraid for most. The free stamps are going to remain the best option in the end. Until we actually get Legislative repeal of the NFA. Nothing is going to change at the ATF. What you are missing is that it already has been "straightened out." There is a very clear and well reasoned order from a federal judge. He is the authority here, not some simp on the ATF payroll. Except it hasn't. Everything an FFL does with firearms and NFA items is based on written guidelines from the ATF. Those guidelines, related to this injunction, do NOT exist yet. You should revisit this post: https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Federal-Court-Strikes-Down-NFA-Registration-on-untaxed-firearms/5-2853946/?page=111#i117428947 The ATF can absolutely comply with the judge's order while simultaneously ass-blasting FFLs and ruining lives for logging NFA items incorrectly. How do FFLs log these transactions correctly? Nobody knows yet. Running these transactions without knowing the DOJ's interpretation of the ruling and without having anything in writing from the ATF is insanely risky. What you fail to grasp is that administrative guidelines from ATF are meaningless in the face of a court order. If they attempt to enforce the challenged provisions, they are in contempt of court and can go to jail. It does not matter what "DOJs interpretation of the ruling" is. It is not difficult to know how to proceed here. I have posted it repeatedly in this thread. The NFA requirements are enjoined. The FFL needs to treat the suppressor like any other GCA firearm: 4473, bound book, etc. What you "fail to grasp" is that all of this has a significant gray area over which the ATF has more or less uncontested authority. To do business, FFLs enter a deal with the devil. They can only do what the ATF says they can, how the ATF says they can. It's Simon Says, but with a giant regulatory gun pointed at your head. The ATF can require and enforce documentation requirements that exist outside of the court order (just like they do with every other codified law), and they have a long and established history of torpedoing FFLs for clerical errors. There's nothing in this court order that says ATF can't require FFLs to do X, Y, and Z to report the removal of an NFA item from the NFRTR, nor is there anything protecting FFLs if the ATF decides that wasn't done correctly. I think we have the right guys in the Oval Office, the AG office, and the ATF Director's office, but there are still hostile parties within the ATF, and enforcement policies can change with the flip of a switch with the next administration. Either way, it's not smart for FFLs to process ATF legal documents in a manner for which they have no instructions from the ATF. Damn son you've been saying the same shit for days and days This thread is full of people bashing gun shops for not playing with fire in the middle of a drought. My point is that gun shops aren't the problem here. I get it, just saying you aren't convincing those people, just filling up a thread along with em. the ATF is almost always the problem, hence the lawsuits and more lawsuits |
Carry it, shoot it. (repeat forever)
Swing Your Sword
Swing Your Sword
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Originally Posted By Echd: The injunction only halts federal enforcement against the plaintiffs. That is considerably different from striking the entire law from the books in the aggregate. Originally Posted By Echd: Originally Posted By RunsonCLP: Originally Posted By ParityError: Originally Posted By Kobolowsky_Tires: pUHlease! Local LE doesn't, CAN'T enforce federal law. They're not empowered to. They enforce STATE law. There are some states, like Florida, that outlaw possession of NFA items unless the possessor can present an affirmative defense that the items is owned in compliance with federal law. So while the local law enforcement isn't enforcing federal law, federal law is very much informing how they enforce state law. B.S. If there is not a federal law to enforce, possibly due to the fact that there is an injunction in place, then what are they enforcing? A membership card to Jansen or GOA is your affirmative defense if Barney Fife gets on a power trip. The injunction only halts federal enforcement against the plaintiffs. That is considerably different from striking the entire law from the books in the aggregate. Similar to what is going on Virginia right now, with the ban on the sale and transfer of so-called "assault weapons" and magazines with capacity greater than 15 rounds. That law went into effect on July 1, but a subsequent injunction now prevents state and local law enforcement agencies from enforcing it. But the law is still on the books. And how have most gun stores in Virginia and online vendors responded? They are selling these items to Virginians again. Without reservation. I suppose if the case is eventually settled with the ban upheld, everyone who sold, purchased, or otherwise transferred one of these items during the injunction period could potentially be subject to prosecution. But each day that goes by, the size of that cohort increases ...so interesting times. We're in them. Welcome to the party. 
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Originally Posted By Cypher214: For the 87th time, this isn't Biden's DOJ. Originally Posted By Cypher214: Originally Posted By mancow: Originally Posted By Cypher214: Despite what we want, I doubt anybody was seriously working on this over the weekend so ATF/DOJ had to get together at 8AM EDT this morning to come up with a plan. I don't expect any sort of announcement to come by lunchtime if they're figuring out how to do this the right way. If they're going to wag their weiners at the court and say "business as usual, fuck you", then they would have said that early and I'm talking about an official announcement, not what some dealer claims his local guy said. I don't expect a statement at all, ever. The silence is having nearly the same effect as law. On that note, some are speculating that Trump's DOJ may somehow stop enforcement of NFA suppressor/SBR/SBS laws entirely. I don't know how that works, but the discussion is out there. And if that's a real possibility, that might be what we are actually waiting on. |
"Sometimes, the grass is greener because it's on a septic system."
"Sporterizing: The art of spending $700 on a $300 gun to make it worth $200." -GTwannabe
"Sporterizing: The art of spending $700 on a $300 gun to make it worth $200." -GTwannabe
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Originally Posted By Glocked: 3M scouring pads work far better! Originally Posted By Glocked: Originally Posted By Gamma762:
3M scouring pads work far better! The rumor is a grout sponge from tile work. |
"Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience."
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Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: On that note, some are speculating that Trump's DOJ may somehow stop enforcement of NFA suppressor/SBR/SBS laws entirely. I don't know how that works, but the discussion is out there. And if that's a real possibility, that might be what we are actually waiting on. I assume the next step from GOA and SS would be an equal protection suit that expands the ruling to everyone, since a two tiered system of NFA enforcement won't really hold up to a lawsuit. If the ATF/DOJ were smart, they would recognize this as being inevitable and simply say that all suppressors can transfer on 4473s, regardless of whether or not you're in the plaintiff class. |
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Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: On that note, some are speculating that Trump's DOJ may somehow stop enforcement of NFA suppressor/SBR/SBS laws entirely. I don't know how that works, but the discussion is out there. And if that's a real possibility, that might be what we are actually waiting on. Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: Originally Posted By Cypher214: Originally Posted By mancow: Originally Posted By Cypher214: Despite what we want, I doubt anybody was seriously working on this over the weekend so ATF/DOJ had to get together at 8AM EDT this morning to come up with a plan. I don't expect any sort of announcement to come by lunchtime if they're figuring out how to do this the right way. If they're going to wag their weiners at the court and say "business as usual, fuck you", then they would have said that early and I'm talking about an official announcement, not what some dealer claims his local guy said. I don't expect a statement at all, ever. The silence is having nearly the same effect as law. On that note, some are speculating that Trump's DOJ may somehow stop enforcement of NFA suppressor/SBR/SBS laws entirely. I don't know how that works, but the discussion is out there. And if that's a real possibility, that might be what we are actually waiting on. The GCA of 1968 gives the Secretary of the Treasury basically all the power in the world. Scott Bessent could stop a whollllllleeeeee lot of gun control right now if he wanted to. |
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Originally Posted By graysonp: So is your opinion that if the ATF requires a simple form to remove NFA items from a dealers Eforms Inventory, they will be in contempt of this order? You seem to be suggesting that this is a ridiculous idea for anyone to be asking that question. Originally Posted By graysonp: Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: In which states are you licensed to practice law, sir? So is your opinion that if the ATF requires a simple form to remove NFA items from a dealers Eforms Inventory, they will be in contempt of this order? You seem to be suggesting that this is a ridiculous idea for anyone to be asking that question. What I am suggesting is that FFLs do not have to wait for the ATF to do anything. The injunction is in effect now. If ATF later comes up with some paperwork like you suggest, the wise FFL will consult with counsel as whether that paperwork is consistent with the injunction and act accordingly. |
"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9 (ESV)
How do I get out of this chickenshit outfit?
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Originally Posted By FlyLeaf: Drove right past Palmetto state armory yesterday. I'll wait out the final decision on this Why? PSA has always shown to be very conservative on legalities. Just ask the guys that wanted HI cap mags and were refused into because their ID showed they were from a nogo ban state. PSA, GOA , SS and others took this issue to a federal court and won their case. I can understand some other dealers with old inventory being unsure due to the way they received and logged inventory. Thats the great thing about freedom you can do you but for the life of me I'm not sure why your worried. |
"Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience."
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Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: How many ATF audits have you seen? Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: Originally Posted By carbineone1964: Just have to love all these internet warriors wanting a FFL to go pout on a limb for them on. Risking their business, Family, and want them to possibly be imprisoned for you. I know full well that all these so called warriors will fold at the of the ATF on their knees. If actually confronted with the threat of losing all in their lives as they know it. They would turn on other people even to regain their lives back from the ATF. Yes there may be a few that would actually fight back. Maybe ones with lives so pathetic that they are loners and have nothing to lose anyway. I assure you 99 .9 percent of the warriors are all BS talk and would do anything once confronted, except beg for forgiveness, and go back to their homes and Family's. Friend has a Gun Shop and no he would never risk his lively hood for your urge to get a Suppressor just for the simple fact of it has no paperwork, until this is all straightened out. . If you do not want paper work, then just roll your own. Great if this all works out for some. But I am afraid for most. The free stamps are going to remain the best option in the end. Until we actually get Legislative repeal of the NFA. Nothing is going to change at the ATF. What you are missing is that it already has been "straightened out." There is a very clear and well reasoned order from a federal judge. He is the authority here, not some simp on the ATF payroll. Except it hasn't. Everything an FFL does with firearms and NFA items is based on written guidelines from the ATF. Those guidelines, related to this injunction, do NOT exist yet. You should revisit this post: https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Federal-Court-Strikes-Down-NFA-Registration-on-untaxed-firearms/5-2853946/?page=111#i117428947 The ATF can absolutely comply with the judge's order while simultaneously ass-blasting FFLs and ruining lives for logging NFA items incorrectly. How do FFLs log these transactions correctly? Nobody knows yet. Running these transactions without knowing the DOJ's interpretation of the ruling and without having anything in writing from the ATF is insanely risky. What you fail to grasp is that administrative guidelines from ATF are meaningless in the face of a court order. If they attempt to enforce the challenged provisions, they are in contempt of court and can go to jail. It does not matter what "DOJs interpretation of the ruling" is. It is not difficult to know how to proceed here. I have posted it repeatedly in this thread. The NFA requirements are enjoined. The FFL needs to treat the suppressor like any other GCA firearm: 4473, bound book, etc. What you "fail to grasp" is that all of this has a significant gray area over which the ATF has more or less uncontested authority. To do business, FFLs enter a deal with the devil. They can only do what the ATF says they can, how the ATF says they can. It's Simon Says, but with a giant regulatory gun pointed at your head. The ATF can require and enforce documentation requirements that exist outside of the court order (just like they do with every other codified law), and they have a long and established history of torpedoing FFLs for clerical errors. There's nothing in this court order that says ATF can't require FFLs to do X, Y, and Z to report the removal of an NFA item from the NFRTR, nor is there anything protecting FFLs if the ATF decides that wasn't done correctly. I think we have the right guys in the Oval Office, the AG office, and the ATF Director's office, but there are still hostile parties within the ATF, and enforcement policies can change with the flip of a switch with the next administration. Either way, it's not smart for FFLs to process ATF legal documents in a manner for which they have no instructions from the ATF. In which states are you licensed to practice law, sir? How many ATF audits have you seen? Plenty. I practice in this area. |
"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9 (ESV)
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Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: How many ATF audits have you seen? Coincidentally enough, there is one going on right now in a small LGS not far from me. Interesting timing, especially since they are a Silencer Shop "powered professional" dealer, with a kiosk. |
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Originally Posted By Freakinout: Damn son you've been saying the same shit for days and days Its Stockholm Syndrome. We have been so used to being beaten we don't even know how to celebrate a win. And if nobody pushed the boundaries or followed the court decision, it wouldn't be a win. I get that many many FFLs have lots to lose, and some are waiting for at leadership a little guidance from the ATF. Their livelihoods and life in prison are at stake. But if some don't at least follow what I think is a pretty clear ruling for silencershop transfered silencers, the ruling is meaningless. God bless those dealers. The left has done a far better job of essentially becoming ungovernable and making laws meaningless and unenforceable. Meanwhile, we jump through a million hoops and say thank you. I know of at least one MN dealer selling on a 4473, I am picking up a few this week. |
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Originally Posted By mancow: Or the 88th time it's still the DOJ. Originally Posted By mancow: Originally Posted By Cypher214: For the 87th time, this isn't Biden's DOJ. Or the 88th time it's still the DOJ. Trust them? No. Fear them? Fuck no. |
Everything posted above is factual. Maybe.
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Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: In which states are you licensed to practice law, sir? Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: Originally Posted By carbineone1964: Just have to love all these internet warriors wanting a FFL to go pout on a limb for them on. Risking their business, Family, and want them to possibly be imprisoned for you. I know full well that all these so called warriors will fold at the of the ATF on their knees. If actually confronted with the threat of losing all in their lives as they know it. They would turn on other people even to regain their lives back from the ATF. Yes there may be a few that would actually fight back. Maybe ones with lives so pathetic that they are loners and have nothing to lose anyway. I assure you 99 .9 percent of the warriors are all BS talk and would do anything once confronted, except beg for forgiveness, and go back to their homes and Family's. Friend has a Gun Shop and no he would never risk his lively hood for your urge to get a Suppressor just for the simple fact of it has no paperwork, until this is all straightened out. . If you do not want paper work, then just roll your own. Great if this all works out for some. But I am afraid for most. The free stamps are going to remain the best option in the end. Until we actually get Legislative repeal of the NFA. Nothing is going to change at the ATF. What you are missing is that it already has been "straightened out." There is a very clear and well reasoned order from a federal judge. He is the authority here, not some simp on the ATF payroll. Except it hasn't. Everything an FFL does with firearms and NFA items is based on written guidelines from the ATF. Those guidelines, related to this injunction, do NOT exist yet. You should revisit this post: https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Federal-Court-Strikes-Down-NFA-Registration-on-untaxed-firearms/5-2853946/?page=111#i117428947 The ATF can absolutely comply with the judge's order while simultaneously ass-blasting FFLs and ruining lives for logging NFA items incorrectly. How do FFLs log these transactions correctly? Nobody knows yet. Running these transactions without knowing the DOJ's interpretation of the ruling and without having anything in writing from the ATF is insanely risky. What you fail to grasp is that administrative guidelines from ATF are meaningless in the face of a court order. If they attempt to enforce the challenged provisions, they are in contempt of court and can go to jail. It does not matter what "DOJs interpretation of the ruling" is. It is not difficult to know how to proceed here. I have posted it repeatedly in this thread. The NFA requirements are enjoined. The FFL needs to treat the suppressor like any other GCA firearm: 4473, bound book, etc. What you "fail to grasp" is that all of this has a significant gray area over which the ATF has more or less uncontested authority. To do business, FFLs enter a deal with the devil. They can only do what the ATF says they can, how the ATF says they can. It's Simon Says, but with a giant regulatory gun pointed at your head. The ATF can require and enforce documentation requirements that exist outside of the court order (just like they do with every other codified law), and they have a long and established history of torpedoing FFLs for clerical errors. There's nothing in this court order that says ATF can't require FFLs to do X, Y, and Z to report the removal of an NFA item from the NFRTR, nor is there anything protecting FFLs if the ATF decides that wasn't done correctly. I think we have the right guys in the Oval Office, the AG office, and the ATF Director's office, but there are still hostile parties within the ATF, and enforcement policies can change with the flip of a switch with the next administration. Either way, it's not smart for FFLs to process ATF legal documents in a manner for which they have no instructions from the ATF. In which states are you licensed to practice law, sir? LOL |
Life member of CRPA. FPC contributor.
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Originally Posted By graysonp: I assume the next step from GOA and SS would be an equal protection suit that expands the ruling to everyone, since a two tiered system of NFA enforcement won't really hold up to a lawsuit. If the ATF/DOJ were smart, they would recognize this as being inevitable and simply say that all suppressors can transfer on 4473s, regardless of whether or not you're in the plaintiff class. Didn’t the SCOTUS address equal protection in their CASA ruling? Their decision to say that federal district court rulings are limited to the plaintiffs by definition creates a two tier system of relief. I believe they said there has to be a successful class action or other court case to grant universal injunction. Like it or not, it seems like this is working like the SCOTUS intended it to work. |
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Originally Posted By Cypher214: I'm going off of the multiple sources saying they were meeting today to figure out guidance, not whatever imaginary shit you think was happening. multiple internet sources so it must be true over the courts giving them 7 days of stay to do what needed to be done. ya what option is imaginary |
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Originally Posted By mancow: I don't expect a statement at all, ever. The silence is having nearly the same effect as law. Like someone else observed, these bureaucrats aren't giving up their dental because the mountain of Forms that languished in West Virginia went "poof." |
If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.