Posted: 9/7/2018 11:20:45 AM EDT
@bluefalcon shoots Hornady's .223 Rem Frontier 62gr boat tail hollow point match ammunition from a 10.5" AR-15 into calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin to assess terminal performance.
 Home Defense .223 On A Budget? Hornady Frontier 62gr BTHP Gel Test Penetration: 10.4" Retained weight: 21.9gr Max expansion: 0.501" Min expansion: 0.362" Neck: 1" TSC: 6" x 4" Velocities in fps: 2,599 2,617 2,551 2,558 2,656 Average: 2,596.20 StdDev: 43.36 Min: 2,551 Max: 2,656 Spread: 105 Subscribe to AR15.Com's YouTube Channel. For those interested in ammo tests, Andrew has a thread for requests here. |
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In the video it is mentioned that penetration is going to be less with a longer barrel/higher velocity. I know this, and am not going to try to dispute it... But, do we have any kind of rule of thumb to go on, to estimate how much penetration would drop with a 14.5 or 16in barrel? |
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Well that sucks, I'd still use it in a pinch but won't be my first choice.
I think a viable workaround may be what I've done before with 55gr SP which is load it absolutely as light as I can to cycle the gun in order to keep velocity down far enough to limit expansion enough to get adequate penetration. The thing I like about doing this is it virtually eliminates recoil and gives you stupid fast splits while still giving very good terminal performance. I think this 62gr BTHP would be a good candidate for this method paired with a 10" barrel. Maybe keep the velocity around 2450. |
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Quoted:
In the video it is mentioned that penetration is going to be less with a longer barrel/higher velocity. I know this, and am not going to try to dispute it... But, do we have any kind of rule of thumb to go on, to estimate how much penetration would drop with a 14.5 or 16in barrel? |
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Quoted:
No, sir. And sometimes we actually see more penetration at higher velocities. But most of the time, higher velocity = reduced penetration with fragmenting bullets. Quoted:
Quoted:
In the video it is mentioned that penetration is going to be less with a longer barrel/higher velocity. I know this, and am not going to try to dispute it... But, do we have any kind of rule of thumb to go on, to estimate how much penetration would drop with a 14.5 or 16in barrel? Asking never hurts though Thanks |
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Quoted:
Awaiting the Frontier 62gr spire point 5.56 This bullet that is tested here is a coyote/varmint bullet, nothing wrong with that, but we have plenty of those from Hornady already. Now lets make a whitetail bullet, 62, 65 gr. IE Sierra 65gr GK, BUT no jacket-core separation like sierra's. It has to have the interlock style jacket, they have nothing mid-weight for this type & SD! We all like to watch your vid's for different reasons, good job! |
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Quoted: I hope it's coming, I'm interested in something from Hornady for a mid-weight hunting bullet that stays together, and boxed for handloaders. This bullet that is tested here is a coyote/varmint bullet, nothing wrong with that, but we have plenty of those from Hornady already. Now lets make a whitetail bullet, 62, 65 gr. IE Sierra 65gr GK, BUT no jacket-core separation like sierra's. It has to have the interlock style jacket, they have nothing mid-weight for this type & SD! We all like to watch your vid's for different reasons, good job! |
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Quoted:
Well that sucks, I'd still use it in a pinch but won't be my first choice. I think a viable workaround may be what I've done before with 55gr SP which is load it absolutely as light as I can to cycle the gun in order to keep velocity down far enough to limit expansion enough to get adequate penetration. The thing I like about doing this is it virtually eliminates recoil and gives you stupid fast splits while still giving very good terminal performance. I think this 62gr BTHP would be a good candidate for this method paired with a 10" barrel. Maybe keep the velocity around 2450. |
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Quoted: So, you want to forget about fragmentation and make a 55 gr SP into a 22 LR? You sound like you know a lot about ballistics.  .223 gel test: Hornady 55 gr soft point Muh .22! |
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Lol. A 55gr SP that expands and penetrates to 12"+ clocking 2600+ fps is equivalent to a .22lr. You sound like you know a lot about ballistics.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKWojqtvHnE
Muh .22! Quoted:
Quoted: So, you want to forget about fragmentation and make a 55 gr SP into a 22 LR? You sound like you know a lot about ballistics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKWojqtvHnE
Muh .22! The primary wounding mechanism of 55 gr 223 rounds is fragmentation, without which you are essentially drilling 22 caliber holes. Sure, you will get some permanent stretch, but if the bullet does not fragment, then lethality is severely decreased. What is the frag range of your downloaded rounds? What is your longest intended range? 3100 fps vs 2600 fps is not a trivial difference. Did you learn terminal ballistics in a Dr. Seuss book? |
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Quoted: You post that you are downloading to limit expansion. The primary wounding mechanism of 55 gr 223 rounds is fragmentation, without which you are essentially drilling 22 caliber holes. Sure, you will get some permanent stretch, but if the bullet does not fragment, then lethality is severely decreased. What is the frag range of your downloaded rounds? What is your longest intended range? 3100 fps vs 2600 fps is not a trivial difference. Did you learn terminal ballistics in a Dr. Seuss book? It's all about bullet construction paired with velocity. Getting the right balance can turn a poor load into a very good one. That is what I believe the above post was getting at by lowering the velocity just enough to keep the bullet together and penetrate to at least 12", rather than frag or turn inside out at 3200fps and only pen. to 8-10". |
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Quoted:
62 gr tap barrier uses interlock. Hornady don't list any such bullet, In fact they don't list a 62gr TAP, the only 224 bullet that has interlock is the 75gr black, and Is down for big game, as is the Gmx. Cutaways of the 62 tap I did find didn't show any interlock feature, other than the crimp indents inside the copper cup. And for the final nail in the coffin, it's not sold as bullets "only" on the cheap for the reloader. Reviews I read of the 62 TAP, were not very good, must have been made when Hornady still made these, maybe they still do, I couldn't see any on Hornady's site. Looks like certain outlets have them for sale at a decent price, around $15. |
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Quoted: So, you want to forget about fragmentation and make a 55 gr SP into a 22 LR? But it needs more weight and a means to lock the core to the jacket, for me anyway. You want fragmentation, I want a good mushroom, somebody else wants tumbling..... Everyone has an idea of what they want. I like B Falcons vids from a different perspective than most here, I'm about hunting big and medium game, varmints. I also wish he would standardize a bbl length of 16". I figure if it's a good enough bullet for taking down a whitetail with staying together and penetrating it's good enough for HD. Even though I use a shotgun for that. |
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Quoted:
Well that sucks, I'd still use it in a pinch but won't be my first choice. I think a viable workaround may be what I've done before with 55gr SP which is load it absolutely as light as I can to cycle the gun in order to keep velocity down far enough to limit expansion enough to get adequate penetration. The thing I like about doing this is it virtually eliminates recoil and gives you stupid fast splits while still giving very good terminal performance. I think this 62gr BTHP would be a good candidate for this method paired with a 10" barrel. Maybe keep the velocity around 2450. Not a good idea to be on the ragged edge of cycling with HD ammo. Not sure why you are concerned about "adequate penetration" as the FBI Protocol applies to handgun ammunition, not rifle ammunition. Dropping the MV to 2600 decreases the ME significantly and increases bullet drop and drift. Without high velocity and permanent stretch, wounding and incapacitation is decreased. Here is a forensic study of the Stockton, CA shooting by Fackler et. al, which discusses the wounds suffered by the victims there who were shot with non-fragmenting 7.62x39 (124 gr FMJ Federal ammunition). https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/9ae4/9735a2f9e6033d83e4d7a9573d09dae2ab59.pdf 86% of those victims survived being shot with a 30 caliber bullet. Do you expect a non-fragmenting 223 bullet with less energy and a smaller crush cavity to be more effective? The Ammo Oracle in the Ammunition Forum here on ARF explains the basis for selecting effective self defense ammunition, how that basis was derived, and what rounds meet the criteria. |
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Quoted: Lol. A 55gr SP that expands and penetrates to 12"+ clocking 2600+ fps is equivalent to a .22lr. You sound like you know a lot about ballistics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKWojqtvHnE
Muh .22! |
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Quoted:
I wonder how the 75 grain would do since it is the TAP T2 bullet with slightly lower velocity. |
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Quoted: You post that you are downloading to limit expansion. The primary wounding mechanism of 55 gr 223 rounds is fragmentation, without which you are essentially drilling 22 caliber holes. Sure, you will get some permanent stretch, but if the bullet does not fragment, then lethality is severely decreased. What is the frag range of your downloaded rounds? What is your longest intended range? 3100 fps vs 2600 fps is not a trivial difference. Did you learn terminal ballistics in a Dr. Seuss book? |
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Quoted:
Some of the best .223 and 5.56mm loads do not fragment at all. There is no such thing as "permanent stretch". Quoted:
Quoted: You post that you are downloading to limit expansion. The primary wounding mechanism of 55 gr 223 rounds is fragmentation, without which you are essentially drilling 22 caliber holes. Sure, you will get some permanent stretch, but if the bullet does not fragment, then lethality is severely decreased. What is the frag range of your downloaded rounds? What is your longest intended range? 3100 fps vs 2600 fps is not a trivial difference. Did you learn terminal ballistics in a Dr. Seuss book? I am done w/ the GD ballistic discussion. |
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Quoted: Permanent stretch = permanent cavity if you like. Same. Thing. I am done w/ the GD ballistic discussion. |
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Quoted:
Wasn't there a thread recently about someone whose rifle blew up using frontier ammo? IIRC they said that frontier is loaded to be hotter than many other rounds, and other people had also experienced a KABOOM using frontier ammo. https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/Witnessed-a-KABOOM-today-Updated-pics-on-page-5/5-2145296/?page=1 I just saw it last night and just started reading it. Very interested in the outcome. |
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Quoted:
This may be that thread: https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/Witnessed-a-KABOOM-today-Updated-pics-on-page-5/5-2145296/?page=1 I just saw it last night and just started reading it. Very interested in the outcome. Quoted:
Quoted:
Wasn't there a thread recently about someone whose rifle blew up using frontier ammo? IIRC they said that frontier is loaded to be hotter than many other rounds, and other people had also experienced a KABOOM using frontier ammo. https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/Witnessed-a-KABOOM-today-Updated-pics-on-page-5/5-2145296/?page=1 I just saw it last night and just started reading it. Very interested in the outcome. |