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Posted: 5/28/2021 10:53:14 AM EDT
[#1]
the Swiss fighting the Russians in 1945
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Posted: 5/28/2021 11:20:49 AM EDT
[#2]
MacArthur doesn't fuck up War Plan Orange, withdraws to Bataan with supplies, preemptively air strikes Tainan, how long does he hold out then vs IJA? (Probably not until 1944 but maybe a lot longer than the 5 months of real history).
US Asiatic Fleet effectively employs its submarines (and the subs and destroyers magically have working torpedoes) allowing decimation of Japanese invasion fleets in the Dutch East Indies. How does this influence the course of the war by hampering rubber/oil supplies and terminating Japanese merchant capability earlier on? Timing changes such that Japan also destroys 2 US carriers, fuel supplies, and maybe another few cruisers at Pearl Harbor plus additional damage to Tennessee, Pennsylvania, subs, and docks. Does Japan then much more easily gain Wake, Port Moresby, and Guadalcanal while Coral Sea/Midway/Aleutians don't happen in 42 (US can't project) with Japan then consolodating/defending a good perimeter in 42/43 instead of fighting to extend thus the timeline of the US occupation of the Marianas is delayed by at least a year thus markedly extending the length of the war? Entire French Navy goes over to the Allies in 1940 and keeps fighting after the Fall of France, does this huge fleet completely change the battle of the Atlantic and the Pacific War? Spain joins the Axis invading (or at least neutralizing) Gibraltar and Portugal, how does that look? |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 11:28:39 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: the Swiss fighting the Russians in 1945 Russia of 1945 is night and day different from the 1940 version that fought Finland. 1945 was rolling German armies, was well supplied, and had excellent leadership and experience. Switzerland would have put up a fight, but I don't see them winning. That whole fire 5 shots and go home is neat, but it wouldn't have worked out. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 11:34:36 AM EDT
[#4]
Matthus Hetzenauer score is suspect to me. It'll be discussed in my sniping book (being edited now).
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Posted: 5/28/2021 11:47:20 AM EDT
[#5]
Western Allies v. USSR in 1945. Of course, the Western Allies would raise German Divisions from among its PoWs.
Zuikaku and Shokaku and their airwings were present at Midway. Leyte Gulf - Halsey knew where the Japanese fleet was instead of chasing ghosts. Hitler assassinated in 1942. Sixth Army withdraws and isn't crushed. Negotiated peace? Poland becomes a vassal state and Polish Army restored. Byelorussia & Ukraine become vassal states and their armies raised to fight CCCP Peace Treaty between Germany & France. Germans leave but France must defend itself against British and American invasion. No Operation Barbarossa. Russia attacks Germany via Poland in 1942. Italy stays neutral. No declaration of war against France, no invasion of Albania and invasion of Greece. No Operation Torch, Husky (Sicily), Avalanche (Italy). Green US troops would be first blooded in France (unless they invaded Norway first to be blooded). Hitler doesn't declare war on the US and ignores the pro-British Lend Lease and "neutrality patrols" half way across the Atlantic. US has to concentrate on Japan then. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 12:00:14 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Matthus Hetzenauer score is suspect to me. It'll be discussed in my sniping book (being edited now). So is Sima's. Bigly. But, little doubt they were both talented killers. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 12:08:18 PM EDT
[#7]
Imagine nukes not being developed and the US had to invade Japan itself. Holy fuck.
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Posted: 5/28/2021 12:09:52 PM EDT
[#8]
Yep, Simo's sniping score was 242 and the rest were with SMG or MG. Still, his sniping score was unwitnessed. This doesn't mean he wasn't talented.
One interesting point is the Soviet use of explosive bullets in their war against the Finns. Another thing is Soviet scores. Zaistev (Stalingrad fame) complained that observers would credit him even though he thought he missed (or knew he missed). There is a propaganda angle to it. What the book doesn't mention was that sometimes his victims were Soviet women or children and not the hated Germans. There is a discussion on "best sniper" in chapter 15. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 12:43:11 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Imagine nukes not being developed and the US had to invade Japan itself. Holy fuck. https://www.airforcemag.com/app/uploads/2020/06/Operation_Downfall_map-830x1024.png Conventional firebombing would've done job, too. At the point Japan stands by itself, with an inability to even send ships between islands, and with zero air assets, it wouldn't have required Downfall. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 12:52:22 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Western Allies v. USSR in 1945. Of course, the Western Allies would raise German Divisions from among its PoWs. - This discussion has been had here before about how huge the USSR was and how many divisions they had. Frequently it turns into a question of what comprised those divisions. The 25th Motorized Rifle Guards Oktober Guards Division may say it has 125,000 men, but really is composed of about 70 men, two Studebakers, and a horse. Western divisions weren't all used up. Also if not for lend-lease, the Soviets lose a lot of their transport assets. Germans were already raising divisions from SSR POWs who preferred national socialism and its misery to international socialism and its misery. If given the choice of "mom and apple pie vs Nazis/Soviets" it's a really easy choice. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 1:07:50 PM EDT
[#11]
What if the Japanese had sedated Godzilla; put him on an ocean-going barge; and dumped him on the U.S. West coast early in the war when we still only had a peacetime-level military?
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Posted: 5/28/2021 1:11:50 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What if the Japanese had sedated Godzilla; put him on an ocean-going barge; and dumped him on the U.S. West coast early in the war when we still only had a peacetime-level military? And if Kong survived his fall from the empire State building in 1933 and had subsequently been held in captivity, he could then have been pitted against Godzilla in an epic fight. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 1:13:36 PM EDT
[#13]
Tirpitz makes a breakout in early 1942.... Intercepted by USS North Carolina.
Sept 1939... Gamelin finds his balls and throws the entire French Army against the German West Wall... |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 1:22:36 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: Since I was a kid I have always entertained myself with the idea that it would be the most awesome gladiatorial spectacle in human history if you could take selective WWII elements and pit them against one another in a limited, closed battlefield. Especially ones that never got to face off. For instance, a squadron of Corsairs with experienced pilots against a squadron of FW190's with similarly experienced pilots. The USS Iowa going head to head with the Tirpitz, mano e mano. Matthus Hetzenauer vs. Simo Hayha in a duel on neutral ground with time to prep. Whatcha got, or what other battle elements out of history would be neat to see against each other (assuming from the same period)? I want to see Iowa vs Yamato. That would be a hell of a battle although honestly with the Iowa's superior fire control it would be an utter beat down. Maybe Iowa vs Yamato and Musashi simultaneously 
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Posted: 5/28/2021 1:26:03 PM EDT
[#15]
Iowa wipes the floor with Tirpiz. North Carolina might be a closer fight, but in any event nine 16 inch guns with radar-controlled fire control and heavy U.S. AP shells is going to render Tirpitz into a flaming wreck very quickly.
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Posted: 5/28/2021 1:28:24 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tirpitz makes a breakout in early 1942.... Intercepted by USS North Carolina. Sept 1939... Gamelin finds his balls and throws the entire French Army against the German West Wall... |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 1:40:06 PM EDT
[#17]
What if Hitler had waited until 1948 before starting the war? The Kriegsmarine would have been able to complete Plan Z and would have been significantly more powerful, and I would surmise the same for the Luftwaffe and Heer/SS in the air and on the ground.
What if the Bismarck hadn't been sunk after sinking the Hood, and instead had been able to get into the Atlantic to raid convoys? What if we had restricted the Lend/Lease program to the UK and left the Soviets on their own? Then, of course, is the age old Iowa vs Yamato debate. I would also like to have seen a USS Montana. And then, soon after the war, what if we had fought the Soviets? |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 1:40:26 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I want to see Iowa vs Yamato. That would be a hell of a battle although honestly with the Iowa's superior fire control it would be an utter beat down. Maybe Iowa vs Yamato and Musashi simultaneously If Iowa keeps her distance, it's her advantage, fo sho. The reason I wondered about Tirpitz is the quality of the crew and her tactics. Some may differ, but I think it'd be a more interesting fight. Maybe the Warspite vs. Tirpitz might be a more even match, but fuck it I'm murican. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 1:42:52 PM EDT
[#19]
D
Quote HistoryQuoted: If Iowa keeps her distance, it's her advantage, fo sho. The reason I wondered about Tirpitz is the quality of the crew and her tactics. Some may differ, but I think it'd be a more interesting fight. Maybe the Warspite vs. Tirpitz might be a more even match, but fuck it I'm murican. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 1:44:05 PM EDT
[#20]
What if the USS Nimitz had gone through with destroying the Japanese attack force prior to their attack on Pearl Harbor?
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Posted: 5/28/2021 1:45:03 PM EDT
[#21]
Tirpitz was built for North Atlantic weather and combat expected at shorter ranges than the max of her guns so her vertical armor was set for that protection.
So bad viz and most any WWII US battleship plasters Tirpitz at long range using radar fire control with shell angle fucking the Tirpitz right up. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 1:48:49 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: the Swiss fighting the Russians in 1945 We would have to shoot for a long day !  |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 1:48:53 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: What if the Japanese had sedated Godzilla; put him on an ocean-going barge; and dumped him on the U.S. West coast early in the war when we still only had a peacetime-level military? We should be grateful if Hollywood and Los Angeles were leveled by Gojirra. Quoted: What if the USS Nimitz had gone through with destroying the Japanese attack force prior to their attack on Pearl Harbor? After dropping a few nooks on the Land o' the Rising Sun, she'd have to head home. Something about jet fuel. How hard is it for our refinery to switch over to jet fuel production? |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 1:49:19 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Iowa wipes the floor with Tirpiz. North Carolina might be a closer fight, but in any event nine 16 inch guns with radar-controlled fire control and heavy U.S. AP shells is going to render Tirpitz into a flaming wreck very quickly. I believe Bismarck and Tirpitz also had radar fire control. I'm not sure about the relative armor schemes, but 8X15 inch guns vs 9X16 inch guns would be an advantage for the North Carolina. According to Wikipedia though, the Tirpitz was a little bit faster. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 1:50:33 PM EDT
[#25]
Japanese aircraft carriers and battleships helping Germany during the Battle of the Atlantic, Panzer divisions for the Japanese to hit Vladivostok, etc.
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Posted: 5/28/2021 1:52:20 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Imagine nukes not being developed and the US had to invade Japan itself. Holy fuck. https://www.airforcemag.com/app/uploads/2020/06/Operation_Downfall_map-830x1024.png The Soviet invasion from the north would have likely taken Tokyo before western allies were able to arrive. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 1:53:27 PM EDT
[#27]
I'd like to see a fight between the Dutch and Danish militaries.
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Posted: 5/28/2021 2:08:09 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd like to see a fight between the Dutch and Danish militaries. What would it be over? Wood resources for shoe production? Who perfected the wooden windmill? The pejorative use of the phrase "going Dutch"? The strategic importance of Hamurg as a pee-stop when traveling between the two nations? The setting/location of The Prince & Me III? |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 2:10:35 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What would it be over? Wood resources for shoe production? Who perfected the wooden windmill? The pejorative use of the phrase "going Dutch"? The strategic importance of Hamurg as a pee-stop when traveling between the two nations? The setting/location of The Prince & Me III? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'd like to see a fight between the Dutch and Danish militaries. What would it be over? Wood resources for shoe production? Who perfected the wooden windmill? The pejorative use of the phrase "going Dutch"? The strategic importance of Hamurg as a pee-stop when traveling between the two nations? The setting/location of The Prince & Me III? I think it would be a contest of who sucks more. 
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Posted: 5/28/2021 2:14:05 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd like to see a fight between the Dutch and Danish militaries. The war of funny helmets and Madsen's? Monty Python should have done it. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 2:46:12 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We should be grateful if Hollywood and Los Angeles were leveled by Gojirra. After dropping a few nooks on the Land o' the Rising Sun, she'd have to head home. Something about jet fuel. How hard is it for our refinery to switch over to jet fuel production? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What if the Japanese had sedated Godzilla; put him on an ocean-going barge; and dumped him on the U.S. West coast early in the war when we still only had a peacetime-level military? We should be grateful if Hollywood and Los Angeles were leveled by Gojirra. Quoted: What if the USS Nimitz had gone through with destroying the Japanese attack force prior to their attack on Pearl Harbor? After dropping a few nooks on the Land o' the Rising Sun, she'd have to head home. Something about jet fuel. How hard is it for our refinery to switch over to jet fuel production? It's basically kerosene, so piece of cake. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 2:55:03 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe Bismarck and Tirpitz also had radar fire control. I'm not sure about the relative armor schemes, but 8X15 inch guns vs 9X16 inch guns would be an advantage for the North Carolina. According to Wikipedia though, the Tirpitz was a little bit faster. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 3:10:52 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think it would be a contest of who sucks more. I thought it might be a blood feud over Helena Christiansen. Troy/Helen? Helena? Coinkidink? |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 4:28:37 PM EDT
[#34]
Mexico fighting Italy would have been entertaining.
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Posted: 5/28/2021 4:34:16 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mexico fighting Italy would have been entertaining. The Mexican airforce dropping Churros out of their bipanes, or the linguini Navy landing on Baja and tripping over the sunbathing seals? I can't imagine them figuring out a way to actually meet each other, and it working out. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 4:42:45 PM EDT
[#36]
The one that made me almost sick to my stomach was the very brief visual depiction of the Nazi invasion of the US in Man In The High Castle.
After the Nazis have decapitated the US government by managing to nuke DC, they have established control of the eastern seaboard and have begun pushing through the Appalachians and into the midwest. The series depicted a flashback from the so called Battle of Cincinnatti which was only briefly hinted at being one of the last major stands of the US military and citizen militia to push the Nazis back out of the midwest and retake control of the east coast. In the series it is obvious that the US military has been decimated by this point in the war. There is a scene in the flashback where SS troops are shown on the streets of Cincinnatti, ripping a small girl from her mothers arms, one SS officer shoots her mom in the back of her head, goes to shoot the girl but his piatol is jammed. He picka up the screaming girl and begins spinning her around by her feet, smashing her head into the side of a brick wall. The depiction looked like the worst scenes of the eastern front against the USSR but here in the streets of 1940s America I could not stop thinking about it for the rest of the night. Imagine what it would have been like to lose our country |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 4:54:08 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Imagine nukes not being developed and the US had to invade Japan itself. Holy fuck. https://www.airforcemag.com/app/uploads/2020/06/Operation_Downfall_map-830x1024.png Hap Arnold and LeMay would have probably expended quite a few more tons of fire bombs on Japan and burned the place to the ground......... and possibly used even more drastic measures like chemical weapons |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 4:57:48 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd like to see a fight between the Dutch and Danish militaries. Same thing |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 5:07:36 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd like to see a fight between the Dutch and Danish militaries.  Attached File |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 5:30:03 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Iowa wipes the floor with Tirpiz. North Carolina might be a closer fight, but in any event nine 16 inch guns with radar-controlled fire control and heavy U.S. AP shells is going to render Tirpitz into a flaming wreck very quickly. Interestingly , the USN sent Iowa on her shakedown cruise into the North Atlantic in the hope Tirpitz would come out. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 5:43:46 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interestingly , the USN sent Iowa on her shakedown cruise into the North Atlantic in the hope Tirpitz would come out. That's the event that got me started on the hypothetical, fwiw. |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 6:59:08 PM EDT
[#42]
FDR dies, a real American becomes President. All Lend Lease to the Soviet Union ends 30 days after D-Day. After VE day, Patton lives; he convinces the President to free Eastern Europe.
April 15, 1946: America starts 24/7/365 bombing of Soviet troops and infrastructure in Eastern Europe. B29/B-50 Bombers start nuking Moscow, Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad and Moscow on a periodic basis. Any rail lines east of Poland are destroyed. By 1947, the B-36 is up and running. Nukes start dropping on the Ural Mountains military factory complexes. What's left of the Soviet Union communist government sues for peace. America responds with a nuke. I can dream can't I? |
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Posted: 5/28/2021 7:17:06 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Artist's interpretation. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/61337/R884debf6784bee1ab285834f546485d2_jpg-1958534.JPG Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'd like to see a fight between the Dutch and Danish militaries. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/61337/R884debf6784bee1ab285834f546485d2_jpg-1958534.JPG  |
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