When I look over this sub-forum, I get the impression that most of the threads would fit better if we named the forum:

"Business & Investing for Peasants who Max the Minimum"

Is it just me that sees that?

All this talk of 401Ks, Roth IOUs, work-around back-door Roth IOUs (because you make too much per IRS rules and might even raise your tax liabilities), retirement strategies for fixed (and reduced) income recipients, with Social Security being a substantial portion of one's planned monthly income in retirement just doesn't excite me in the least.

It doesn't excite, inspire, or motivate me to be what I think I'm capable of in this great Nation of the United States of America.

There was an average of $58.5 Billion being exchanged every day in the US in 2017.

There were 43.72 million people in 2018 collecting SS in the US.

Average SS payout in 2017 was $1368/mo.

Average 401K balances are pathetically atrocious:



Traditional and Roth IRA balances 2013:



Even if you're one of the 8,000 people that has 5-10 million in your Roth IRA, that might not cut it for what you and your family may need with contingencies during your retirement years.

This whole model of peasant-grade retirement seems like a massive experiment in mediocrity to me.

I agree completely.  I have about 100k in retirement accounts.

When i say that i borrowed the max to put into businesses im told i shouldn't ever do that. Because.

I skip retirement bc my businesses do better.

When i said this stock and investing debate is a waste of time,  no one can really comprehend. I say look at the history,  pick 3 or 4 mutual funds and call it good.  Anything else it's a waste and all of these meetings with financial advisors are a waste.

Im told i should be hyper focused on credit card rewards. Because rich people get rich by using other people's money. Even though statistically you spend 8% more using a credit card which negates the cash rewards.

I should use shorter term mortgages on rentals bc equity not cashflow is security in a downturn.

I don't care about today.  Im focused on getting myself to a point where a million a month is possible on good years. I disagree with nearly everything said on these forums, or think it's a waste of time to worry about.

My brothers who are my partners don't see the possibility. Last month one of them said that the p/l profit didn't really mean anything to him,  in his mind the check he gets is the profit. He can't fathom how it works he said. So if we made 350k in a year, and reinvested all but 20k, in his mind 20k is the profit.

5 to 10 million is plenty to live on in all but the rarest cases.  I do disagree with that.  I want more money than that because I have elite skills. And elite people beat the average.  That's how im wired.

My goal has always been "f u money".

When i first met my wife i was starting another business and she was going to work for me.  She asked how it all worked.  When i told her i pledged my house and vehicles and cashed out all my savings to get the financing, she thought that was crazy.  To me that's just how it works. Want to be rich,  you have to push and take calculated risks.

I was raised poor but poor is a state of mind.  Even at age 12 i never doubted id be successful and it wouldn't be by matching the employer 401k and working 9 to 5.

I do hear a few good ideas on here.  I also like to contribute. If i spark a good entrepreneurial thought in a few people and they run with it then its worth the time.

I hang out in the bogleheads when I’m not here. I have a feeling that most people that actually have money, that are funding their accounts, don’t need much advise and don’t talk about it much.

I'm doing better than the average for my age, but it certainly doesn't feel like it to me.

I'm going to start doing more research on how to make some additional income and actually grow some wealth.

Regardless of your age, putting the minimum into your 401k match isn't enough.

Different strokes for different folks. Some people don't mind if they have to work until they're 70 just to be able to afford to retire.

For me, I'm checking out as soon as I possibly can. But that doesn't mean I'm going to all-out retire. I'll likely channel my time to other side income that wouldn't disqualify me from retirement income streams (pension, SS, etc). The goal being to draw as little as possible from my 401k & IRA in my early retirement (letting it still build).

If you plan to retire ONLY on a 401k you better being laying it in deep NOW.

As to the topic at-hand. This forum is a place for firearm enthusiasts to also get some "small-time" advice and info, and share common discussions so the topics at-hand can be a shotgun pattern. From high-end stuff that the peasant doesn't even understand, all the way down to the peasant asking what the difference between a Roth-IRA and a Traditiona-IRA is. No question is too stupid when it comes to retirement. Nobody was born with knowledge of investing, financial literacy, or how our convoluted tax laws effect individual retirement accounts. It was all learned somehow, through some channel. Every person on this planet that learns about them has to learn somehow, and this forum serves as 1 avenue; generally the shallow discussion level. When the rubber meets the road and you start to get more serious (whether it be about starting a business or maxing your IRA contributions) THEN it's time to look further into getting professional advice. Nobody in this forum is YOUR professional; some may be professionals in the industry, but they have no legally binding responsibility to you and unless you're REALLY good at putting all your personal details out to the world on a web forum, they also don't know the totality of your circumstances. You need a real professional when things get serious.

For me, I've been following these forums long enough, and reading on other investing forums long enough, that I have a pretty good understanding of what will work best for ME. That does NOT include maxing out my 401k because I have a comprehensive, multi-faceted approach that will not rely on any 1 income stream. I plan to have some income from sideline money-makers (farm income, home fab-shop, maybe even a gun-shop), as well as a pension, Roth-IRA's, 401k, & Social Security. If any one isn't adequate, there are backups. That doesn't align with everybody's situation though.

I was delivering a custom order to a friend/client of mine last week.

I mentioned one of the guys I had been following and his low 9 figure net worth.

He politely stopped me and said that doesn't really impress him, as he works with people regularly with net worths in the mid-high 11 figure region.

He's in commercial real estate, marketing, and sales.

We're going to sit down in the near future and have a long talk.

I suspect that 401Ks and Roth IRAs will not be part of that conversation...

When I look at the optimistic clean figures that personal finance guys like to show, then hold them up next to the actual numbers of people right now and how tiny those groups are that have put away a few million or more by the time they're 67, I know something is wrong and I have zero interest in IRAs other than how can I cash them out into other investments that actually make money in the next 1-5 years without a tax penalty.

If Congressmen have asked their brokers and accountants (each other) about this, I bet there is a law somewhere they've made to accommodate themselves and their donors.

Ah, just perusing the IRS rules on early and hardship withdrawals, I'm seeing all sorts of options.

Looks like you can loan money to yourself from your 401K under certain conditions, and that some of these conditions have been relaxed in 2018.

IRS.gov:  Don't hate the player or the game.  Learn to play the game....

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/27/4-main-paths-to-becoming-millionaire-here-is-the-easiest-way-says-money-expert.html

1.  Saver-Investor path is easiest (most likely) and can be done on a modest 4 figure/month income but requires time and discipline which rules out many on this path as well as the other 3 paths).
2.  Dreamer, start a business or be a celebrity.
3.  Company Climber to executive position.
4.  Virtuoso, the "Expert" in your field.

I don't view the 97% of Americans not reaching millionaire status as failures, it's not meant for everyone. Good luck in your pursuit of the 1.5% or so with 9+ figure numbers of worth.

Anytime the discussion is about reaching a million dollars, we know the conversation is in the wrong place at least for 2019 and future dollars.

Everyone who has already been working for 20 years with an average salary of $50k has made a million.  It just took too long, and they didn't increase their net worth considerably if they continued to go into debt.  There were 3.8 million people in the US in 2018 with a net worth of $1 million, which is not much to show for.  It's a heck of lot better than being broke working paycheck to paycheck up to their eyeballs in debt, but not the full potential for the people who have done it.

If your goal is to make another million the same way or with tiny investments to be carefully withdrawn after ages 67-70 (that rarely pan out in the numbers financial planners show you), you are most likely destined for failure and/or massive disappointment.

Many small businesses that don't quit and learn how to cash flow will break into several million net worth eventually if the owners don't rob themselves.

It's then a question of growth and are they willing to continue investing risk into their model as they scale up with more employees or productive power.

Productive power is more accessible to us today due to automation, so you can have less overhead and more productivity.  CNC's don't need 401Ks or medical, and can be replaced every 3-5 years on a depreciation scale, all in the tax code.

My overall impression though is that people have been conditioned into maxing the minimum with "safe" retirement plans, hoping one day to finally stop working so they can relax, when they live in the largest economy in the world with more access to tools of production and wealth creation than any other nation hands-down.

FWIW, my 401K at Fidelity has allowed personal 401K loans for quite a while.   I've had several over the years.

That's because the vast majority of people were never educated on what they needed to put away, they were in denial that they needed to put it away, they were never "in the right place financially" to start, or they simply thought they would never make it to that age. IE, they didn't actually save the amount necessary and do it consistently throughout their whole career.

There are plenty of people that did it right and put back enough; but those that didn't outweigh those that did. That's not a symptom of the game as you're saying, it's the players not playing the game.

In my case alone I'm in the top 5% for savers in my age group. I'm contributing near the max to my 401k, maxing my Roth, maxing the tax-advantaged portion of my state's 529, and still have 6-figure personal investments that I put away after I sold my first house. Those personal investments alone netted me $30k in gains since January 1st. Not sure what you're looking at but the numbers don't lie; the gains are there, it's not a pipe dream.

"My overall impression though is that people have been conditioned into maxing the minimum with "safe" retirement plans, hoping one day to finally stop working so they can relax, when they live in the largest economy in the world with more access to tools of production and wealth creation than any other nation hands-down."~LRRPF52

I resemble that statement; raised on not getting out of the box and taking risks.  My brother changed careers, and increased his income, but is still working for the company rather than himself even though he not long ago stated he and his coworkers should go out on their own.  Getting out of that comfort zone has to be separating some of those that have done it from those that could've done it.

"That's because the vast majority of people were never educated on what they needed to put away, they were in denial that they needed to put it away, they were never "in the right place financially" to start, or they simply thought they would never make it to that age. IE, they didn't actually save the amount necessary and do it consistently throughout their whole career." ~SigOwner_P229

I resemble this too, assuming my pension plan and some SSA would get my retirement done.  Now that I have a cursory investing education I'm getting more skin in that game, but the all important "time" factor is gone for me.  I'm trying to be a cautionary tale for the next generation as they can all save and invest, regardless if they aren't tops in their field, professional athletes, singers, song writers, business owners, etc.

If you ever listen to Dave Ramsey’s Millionaire Theme Hour segments, it’s kind of depressing.

Majority of callers are 65+ and have $1.2-$4 million net worth. The upper half is mostly lawyers, or those in specialized medical fields.

Regardless, how much would it suck to be 65 with just $1.2 million net worth. Just in time for when your body is starting to fall apart, and all that “wealth” you amassed is getting chewed away by medical bills. You never got to enjoy life, because you were driving 20 year old cars, and were told not to enjoy pumpkin spice lattes 6 days a week. Grant Cardone, while I don’t subscribe to everything, made a great post recently. He referred to the Millionaire Nextdoor book, and how it’s great, if you want to be on defense your whole life.

I think that’s the gist of what the OP is trying to comprehend. Our entire lives, we are told to save, and to put it in the market. Well, those guys in fancy suits on a Wall Street, they’re out there enjoying PSLs 7 days a week, driving their Ferrari, and vacationing in the Hamptons. Wealthy folks invest in things that defer taxes and pay them cash monthly, and they get to use it now, not when they’re 59.5 years old.

A good way to look at it is like this, would you rather have $3 million in three McDonalds locations, or $3 million in your IRA when you’re 50?

That's a personal preference.  I would never own a restaurant even if someone very experienced was running it.

On the other hand, 10 ship it stores that each net 30k per year would not be a bad investment.  Low stress,  low maintenance.  Just keep them staffed.

Either way, I dont have the balls. I'll keep working for the man, maybe I'll make the c level, maybe not.

I'm tracking that.  Those figures for the tiny % who max their IRAs would barely get my meter moving along with other revenue streams, but the way I'm looking at it is that it's better for me to go deep into something that cash-flows now vs later.

We have earnings based on multiple stocks from bonus/profit-sharing packages as well, but those aren't enough to excite me or do what I really want to do.  Ebay and PayPal stock was awesome with the split, because the writing was on the wall for Ebay, so we used that to fund a lot of things instead of holding onto it, while managing the PayPal stock more closely.

I want to be able to take care of problems now, especially like what happened recently when my brother passed unexpectedly at age 46 last September.  I would have liked to have been able to go visit him earlier with resources to see the best doctors, the latest stem cell treatments, whatever it took.  With his passing, I would have liked to be able to just tell his widow that everything is taken care of, you don't have to worry about anything but grieving on your time.  Don't worry about the mortgage for a while, just take some time off and I'll handle this.

I grew up traveling from a very early age.  My mom immigrated here from Scandinavia, and we lived in West Germany when I was a kid.  I was an exchange student in Japan between my Junior and Senior years.  I've been to 30 different countries, and have lived in 8 of them.  Travel was a huge influence in my education, opening a lot of horizons to see how big and small the world really is.  I'd like to provide as much of that for my kids as possible once they're all able to handle air travel better.  We've traveled with them already to Europe a few times, but with all the things that happened with my health, it put a major slow-down on all of that for a while.

I'm in my mid-40s and getting medical treatment that is normally for people in the 60s-90s.  There's a wolf at my doorstep, which is why I'm doing the things I'm doing in my businesses.

I think it's shameful to only have $1.2-$4 million in net in your 40s or 50s just because of the cost of things and contingencies.

If you beat your mortgage payment up, paid off your vehicles, and have some decent streams of revenue by your 40s, you should have anywhere from $750k-$1.4 million net worth, depending on your property location.  But net worth is finite.  If you have massive cash flow, net worth is just a small number.

I know dudes who have insane net worth and cash flow, but drive very conservative vehicles, live in maybe $1.3-$4 million homes, and don't splurge on super cars.

The funny thing you mention about Ferraris is that a lot of the people in the really wealthy brackets with 8 figure net look at some of these guys with the cars and chuckle.  These guys may have bought a Ferrari when they were younger and either held onto it as an investment, or sold and moved into bigger stuff like McLarens, Bugattis, and Koenigseggs.   Some of them have one-off Paganis and special order Bugattis worth $18.7 million.  Just to change the oil on one of their hyper cars costs $10k.

Then you have guys trying to look wealthy making $5k payments on Lambos or Ferraris, broker than broke when you look at their income/debt ratio.

I would like to enjoy some NFA things like a Stoner 63A, and go-in with some people on surplus fighters.  I grew up surrounded by people my dad worked with who collected and re-built F-86s and F-104s.  When I saw the F-16A/Bs for sale from Royal Jordanian Air Force that are in Florida for only $8.5 million per aircraft, I realized that my dream wasn't big enough.  That's what excites me.  There is something bigger than that.  The surplus fighter market is going to be insane as we move forward into the future.  I'm thinking that one day, we might be able to get some Improved Performance Engines with the right corporate structure and install them.

Have a stripped-down Viper with most of the combat-related systems removed to bring the empty weight down below book, with an engine that produces 29,000lb of thrust in AB.  Maybe share ownership with the private aggressor companies that provide a service to DoD.

Think about the Japanese Mitsubishi Viper variants with the big wings.  As they transition to F-35s, there's going to be a market for those, and they have GE motors.  I don't know how long I have to live, but I know what's on my bucket list.  The amount of activity I have to create to even reach for these things will more than take care of what a 401K normally would.  That's basically where I'm coming from.

I think I understand a little of what you’re saying.   For most people, that big fat projected number (1.2m or whatever) is an absolute best case scenario.    Will they actually achieve it, and fortuitously go to Cash, just before the next collapse cuts in in half?   Some will, perhaps.   The thing is, people Have to believe in something.
We live in a society which has traded children, for Dogs, in a time, where money is being devalued, everywhere. Hope is the primary currency.  
One aspect you probably don’t see, is that the same people that are maxing out $60,000 into tax advantaged accounts, are also saving $100,000 per year or more in other accounts.   After everything is paid off, and all your needs are met, and you’re still making ~300,000 per year, you literally can’t spend it all.   Lots of people have this “problem”, who you would never suspect.  They don’t talk about it, for obvious reasons.

This is where different strokes for different folks really rings true.

I would get zero enjoyment from owning such a thing. It simply doesn't excite me. My hobbies are much cheaper and have the capability of producing income.

I would like to buy the property nextdoor if I achieve millionaire status. It's 160 acres undeveloped and I want to keep it that way. Maybe the big difference between us is that you have a dream of what is possible and I'm living my dream? We bought our dream house a few years ago and are on track to be debt-free by 45 (without sacrificing retirement & personal savings). Plugging my numbers into the retirement calculator ar-jedi posted has me good to retire at age 54 and that's counting on $0 social security income. I'll also have a pension.

ETA, Additionally, it seems by some of the conversation you're proposing that this dream is obtainable by everybody if they just have the drive and motivation. That isn't true, every single means of making money relies on you, or somebody else working, just making enough to live on. If every employee of a company made "FU money" then the product/svc would be so expensive that it would take "FU money" to pay for it. Expand that to every product & svc you use and all of your "FU money" is being used for everyday expenses and you're no longer "rich". You've just experienced inflation; you make more money but the goods cost more too!

OP, most people can't save/invest more because they can't afford it because of foolish spending habits.

Did you see trends in which way people made longevity assumption errors and why they did?

Thanks for the write up.   That matches what I’d assumed were the trends.  I’m 49 and in the later end of the accumulation phase but looking to learn more about distributions.  I’m most likely about to get laid off so my timeline for getting serious about what my real number and plan is has been sped up.  I don’t want to work longer than I have to but once I punch out of the professional world it’ll be hard to get back in years later if needed

I plan to stop contributing to my retirement account when I retire!

Also don't plan to be paying a mortgage or nearly as much in vehicle expenses when I quit driving 60 mi/day

Risk is real. Failure is real. Many people try to start massive wealth building businesses and a few succeed.

Those that do succeed often sacrifice family along the way. Not to mention the massive amounts of time that is often devoted to these endeavors.

Good luck, I hope for your sake you can make this newfound desire for wealth work for you.

Personally, I'll keep contributing to a sound financial base. Numbers that are achievable without sacrificing family and with extremely low risk of failure. I'll probably never own an airplane, but good healthcare, and a life of leisure with time to spend with loved ones is a good enough outcome for me.

I’m 61 and have saved a lot of money, multiple  7 figures, unless you own your own business there’s no get rich scheme. It takes a long time.  I started saving when I was 23, every month, mutual funds, ind stocks, and 401k when that became available.  Bought my first vanguard fund in 1993.  I worked at Exxon in 81 and left with 40 shares, now it’s accumulated to 3000 shares.  My dad gave me 50 sh of beech aircraft when I was really young.  It’s now 1600 sh of raytheon.

I’m just an avg guy that has religiously saved. And I never used a financial advisor.  I learned about it along the way and bought things along the way I thought would work.  I lost money too, I bought an environmental cleanup mutual fund in ‘95 and lost $3000.

So now my Annual Dividends alone on the assets are over 50k.  It can be done but only with time and patience

Snipped the REAL important parts for the TLDR crowd.

Everything you just said is mirroring what I'm hearing from the people I've been listening to lately, all of who have their financial houses not only in order, but are generating stupid money cash flow, regardless of what industry or markets they are in.

When they talk about the stock market, 401Ks, and IRAs, they literally agree on everything you've said after analyzing the market over the past 20-50 years.

Every financial planning spiel I listen to talks about how the people that do have IRAs, have not properly planned for their retirements for the reasons you list, as well as unexpected medical expenses.

For those that are blowing up their IRAs and will have rather large nest eggs (provided the accounts don't go TU in a crash), the numbers show that your peers literally can be counted in the 4 digit range in a Nation of 330 million people.

Risk and failure are real with the IRA markets too, with very limited potential for returns as demonstrated.

How much could your 401(k) lose in the market downturn?

Death and taxes are your only guarantees in this life.  If you retire during a downturn market, and stack a debilitating injury on top of that, things are going to start sucking worse than a lot of people think because they haven't planned for it.

I work from home currently (have been since 2012) and include my family in my work where appropriate, and as my kids get older, they assume more and more responsibility.

I definitely agree with the concept of not carrying any free-loaders in my house, and my kids are learning a love for work as a result from an early age.

My desires are for more freedom to spend with my family which includes us working together, not enjoying leisure.

I'm not the guy who you'll see sitting on a beach in retirement sipping on cocktails.

I spent enough time on beaches when I was a kid with our family travel, and it just doesn't excite me.  That's a personal thing, and everybody has their juice.

We've been debt-free before we even got married, as my wife and I made good decisions before in our separate lives.

I'm not focused on owning some of the things I mentioned, but being able to have experiences.  If there is ownership, it must have a return to make sense.

I want to be able to take care of family while working until the day I pass into the light for good.

Market risk can be planned for.  Sequence of returns is the prime driver for the 4% rule.  Taking the Shiller P/E into context can help identify times where the 4% rule is likely to fail.  The risk of a market downturn is far different from the risk of bankruptcy and starting over from chasing mega wealth building dreams.

There is a consistent path to wealth through the markets.  It's slow and takes a long time.  As long as one invests regularly in index funds and lets that money work over time, several million dollars is pretty achievable.  Most millionaires get there through the slow and steady path.  It's not sexy, it's not fast, but it works consistently.

This definitely isn't a thread about get rich quick schemes, depending on what one's definition of "rich" and "quick" is.  I could name some exceptions to that with how Apple went from a garage to a billion dollar company in 7 years, or how Quest Nutrition launched out of a rapidly-growing tech business into a billion dollar company with over 500 employees in their manufacturing facility within 10 years.

Everything my wife and I have been able to do has been through hard work, sacrifice, and delayed gratification.

When she was in her profession before we married, she led her team to hit performance goals every month, quarter, and year which meant cash and stock shares as bonuses.

The other employees there would then show up to work maxed-out on new expensive brand automobiles and started getting the biggest homes they could qualify for on their well-above median income salaries.  She got a basic little SUV that would allow her to go fishing, get from A to B, with a solid reliability record for maintenance and then beat up the payments until it was paid off quickly.

I've never purchased a new vehicle and didn't use a credit card for personal purchases when I was single after my divorce.

We do use CCs for business expenses if it makes sense to not use cash on terms with suppliers, but that usually means a 3% fee, so I like cash on the last day of terms so I can maintain time value of money in my favor.  I've seen a lot of start-ups get crazy with with trying to leverage credit cards in their favor, and it not work out well for them because the bank gets in their OODA loop and the interest starts killing them right when they need to be fulfilling deliverables.

One of the dumbest things I've heard business owners say when buying with credit when they don't need to is, "It's a tax write off anyway."

This is especially true when not cash-flowing.

Of all the college courses I've taken specific to business, none of them really compared to the value of a small business management course, or studying the successes and failures of high achievers.  The amount of information available for free now is probably worth trillions of dollars easily.

Several million dollars for retirement isn't enough.  That's the point.

People who don't understand money and have been living without much of a budget think a few million dollars is a lot of money for retirement, without realizing they've already made a million in their first 20 years of work in most cases.  20 years x avg of $50k/yr =

Even if you're one of the several 4-digit thousand people that has a retirement account that looks like the ones the financial planners like to show you, you're now on a fixed income in retirement, and haven't taken fees and inflation into account.  A lot of people have learned the hard way that they've allowed themselves to be robbed by their FAs through fees that were benchmarked to performance of their products, not fixed commissions.

When you get a room full of elite entrepreneurs who have net worths in the hundreds of millions individually, and they're all saying the same thing about what they've observed and personally lost in those spaces, it commands attention.

Areas to be aware of with Financial Advisors that rub me the wrong way are:

* Performance-based commissions on your assets under their management
* Sales incentives for your advisor to push certain products your way
* Management of assets that don't need anyone but you managing them (long-term bonds, for example)

Even if you find an advisor who truly has your best interests in mind and is committed to you, that won't take gifts and resort trip incentives to sell you products the holders know are headed into their final stages in returns, the quality of education today has diminished so much in the professional world that I still would have a hard time trusting that advisor.

Here's a very simple, easy way to determine what is right for you:

Would you rather:

1. Invest in yourself, starting with your own knowledge about money.

2. Trust someone else to handle that for you and get back to work at a job.

In arfcom fashion, I think it makes sense to at least do 1. if you're already doing 2.

You clearly don't have a solid background in retirement planning.

US Median household income was $63,179 in 2018.  Utilizing the basic 4% rule (which accounts for inflation), a $1,579,475 retirement account will throw off a median US household income.  That's not touching Social Security, which will likely pay ~80% of currrently projected rates.  Three million dollars would throw off about twice a US household income, and adjust upwards for inflation every year.  Most of the time, that level of spending could be maintained into perpetuity.

Fees suck, I avoid them.  Financial advisors can make sense, though I tend to make my own plans.  I like to read books on the subject and listen to podcasts.

1.) Everyone needs to make realistic plans about how much they want to have in retirement.  I plan to have far more than $63k/yr available. I put a little under 50% of my income back to make that happen. Most people don't need to replace 100% of income the year they retire. They can plan on some coming from social security. They can also stop contributing to their retirement account, which should be a decent percentage of their salary every year.

2.) An 80/20 stock/bond portfolio rebalanced annually performs consistently over time. 4% is the limited withdrawal rate due to sequence of returns risk. It prevents you from withdrawing too much during down markets.  That provides a roughly 95% success rate when looking at all previous market sequences. Even a 50/50 stock bond mix will work, but it tends to be more limiting as timelines are extended past 30 years.

3.) Nothing wrong with planning on cutting loose at 65 and living a life of leisure from then on. But you must be realistic in how much you are saving and how much growth you can expect. It also helps to understand market volatility and not shoot yourself in the foot by panicking and selling when crashes happen.  Personally I plan to be out between 55 and 60. It will depend on how the market does, inflation and how much I like or dislike my job.

Correct.  I don't plan on retiring.  The whole concept of retirement never made sense to me.

I enjoy my work, and adding value to the market.

I'm working towards constantly increasing the value of my work so that it's far greater when I'm in most people's retirement age window (which is increasing BTW).

$1.6 million won't even buy a decent property in some of the best real estate markets in this Nation.

Say your home is paid off and you plan to stay there or sell for a similar place (you just lost 6% on the sale, not including the other fees) and you're planning on withdrawing disbursements.

You or one of your family members, God forbid, has an unexpected medical problem.  You blow through your deductible and your insurance pays up to a certain point, but the procedures and hospital bed/room/board rent end up costing $300k.  Does your plan account for that?

I literally met a guy this past Saturday who lost one of his sons after a year-long battle with cancer.  The boy never saw his 2nd birthday.  The father still owed $300k after the funeral, courtesy of the hospital.

These are peasant-grade plans for peasant-grade thinkers who have been trained by society to think like camouflaged peasants, tricked into a sense of wealth when they really are broke.

You end up with a tiny parcel of land that is camouflaged to appear like an estate, with your patches of green sod, your designer kitchen, the latest flooring, hardware, and material things, but you can be an event away from financial ruin if you follow the mainstream advice I'm seeing out there.

Finally somebody in this thread that knows your savings rate is what really matters.

You might be “alive” at 86+, but you’re not living. What the heck is the point of having $10 million in retirement at that point, so it can get sucked up by hospitals and nursing homes, just to keep you alive on a bed?

Millions of people are living just fine on welfare, free rent, food, and mobile phones. That’s retirement, and they figured it out early. They can go fishing whenever they want, and here our dumbasses are, arguing that $3 million at 59.5 isn’t enough.

I was with you until you said welfare was living.

Men need purpose.  They need to reason to get up in the morning and grind. Welfare is not living to me.

I'll always work bc i need purpose. Every day i have family goals,  fitness goals,  and work goals. I don't care much about money, i care about having a purpose.  My house and vehicles combined are about 4 months gross income.  Nice but very small and basic.

I'll keep being a "dumbass" with my fulfilling traditional life that I'm proud of while building a legacy that hopefully my family will continue for generations after im gone.

If my only choice was the welfare life id walk into the woods,  find a covered spot and eat a pistol.

Interesting thread and perspectives.

I don’t see how you can have purpose when you don’t care about money.

Working smart and hard translates to giving life purpose, for me. It allows our family to travel luxuriously, and experience the better things, together. Simply grinding in a factory line doesn’t fulfill me, even if I were 70.

While welfare isn’t living to us, it’s the life for many, and most are happy with it. Look at the seniors at McDs in the morning, huddled in a booth together, trading the same war stories from 20 years ago.

They probably maxed out the minimum, and counting on welfare to survive. I’m aware of anomalies, there are those that have the means, but get a thrill from senior coffees.

Nonetheless, I’m in agreement that we are all told to follow the same plan. Work a job, put money away, and one day you’ll get to retire.

I disagree.  Once you have some sort of financial stability, savings is one of the worst options for you since the returns are so minuscule.

I know people in their 90's who are traveling, enjoying their lives, still working part-time in their businesses, and spending time with grandchildren and great grandchildren.

Some of them have more vitality than people half their age because they exercise, have good diets, and totally different mindsets.

What if thinking about yourself and hitting some arbitrary age where you just quit contributing value to society is really the selfish, greedy plan?

What if many of the wealthy are actually more selfless because they've made enough money that they no longer have to worry about their own needs and the needs of their families, and can start taking care of other people by helping them achieve the same things?

What if practically everything most people believe about money is a lie?

Yet most people don't make it to 90.  We get some control in our health, but we don't always get a say.  My dad is in his mid 60's and his heart just went back into Afib, it's making it difficult to work...

At a minimum, any business you run should be structured to be self sufficient without you by the time you're in your 60's.  As time progresses, the likelihood of being medically forced out of working increases.  Motor vehicle accidents, falls, heart problems, etc.  They can all do us in.  Work out, stay in shape, eat well, it helps; but it's not a golden bullet.

So you're saying the only purpose you can have is money?

I dont think that's true for most.  Some its building a church congregation, or highschool football team, or a homestead.  For me it's building a business and family.

@fella

With all of your REI, can you walk away now and have all your basic life needs covered in passive income?

Once I get to that number I will consider 1st hurdle overcome. Second hurdle is double my basic needs coverage, third is cover any major medical(going outside of the USA to get specialized treatment), fourth and last hurdle is to actually not have to go to work if I dont want to.

I understand the 3rd is a HUGE unknown but I would like to be able to drop 1mill if I had to to save my wife's or kids lives if need and I wouldn't think twice.

Why wouldn't you carefuly select insurance to minimize the risk of actually needing to outlay capital?

I agree but....

You can't build a church, stadium, or a homestead without people that are chasing money, because it's their purpose to build up as much as they can, to do what they choose with it.