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Posted: 1/10/2022 4:38:35 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wangstang: For several reasons it's worth noting that Hubble was built using spare surveillance/spy satellites that were at the end of their project life. NSA/CIA/DARPA and many other .gov funding sources were funneled into the programs that developed what would eventually become Hubble. It's a shame they didn't have the lens system right before the original launch. That said it's arguably been helpful that they got it wrong because it emphasized the need to have repair/updating options available and I have no doubt that those little mini shuttles we've seen photos of but are not told what exactly they are doing are now here in response to the Bubble lens problems. Repairing Hubble also helped us develop tools and effective work methods eventually used to get the ISS assembled and keep it maintained. Always figured Hubble was a spy sat pointing out instead of in. Maybe that's why the primary mirror got ground wrong. lol |
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Posted: 1/10/2022 5:08:10 PM EDT
[#2]
I can't wait to get some close-ups of some Asari and Arcturian poontang.
Seriously though, this is incredible. |
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Posted: 1/10/2022 5:15:17 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StewartTR: Always figured Hubble was a spy sat pointing out instead of in. Maybe that's why the primary mirror got ground wrong. lol Yes I believe that Hubble was indeed based on the same design as operating spy sats, which is why it had had certain design features like its mirror size already set. But the mirror mis-grinding was just a f-up by the vendor that set the parameters wrong in the grinding machine, and the error was not caught because the same error was used in the verification machine or something like that. |
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Posted: 1/10/2022 5:26:06 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By QuantumPion: Yes I believe that Hubble was indeed based on the same design as operating spy sats, which is why it had had certain design features like its mirror size already set. But the mirror mis-grinding was just a f-up by the vendor that set the parameters wrong in the grinding machine, and the error was not caught because the same error was used in the verification machine or something like that. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By QuantumPion: Originally Posted By StewartTR: Always figured Hubble was a spy sat pointing out instead of in. Maybe that's why the primary mirror got ground wrong. lol Yes I believe that Hubble was indeed based on the same design as operating spy sats, which is why it had had certain design features like its mirror size already set. But the mirror mis-grinding was just a f-up by the vendor that set the parameters wrong in the grinding machine, and the error was not caught because the same error was used in the verification machine or something like that. wasn't that like 1960s tech they were using to grind the mirror? Seems like lots of room for error with the old stuff |
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Posted: 1/10/2022 5:34:02 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By brass: @Enzo300 That's already in progress. The Starlink constellation have cameras on them both looking out and looking down. Once the pattern is dense enough, that many cameras can be tiled together to give higher magnification for about a 50,000 foot view of anywhere on Earth - Basically Google Earth "Live" like in Snow Crash. That's not quite available yet as the pattern isn't dense enough but it will be if the launch rate of the satellite strings continues. @brass Citation needed, please. I was not aware that Starlink had Earth observation cameras. I would like to know more. |
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Posted: 1/10/2022 5:52:41 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By redoubt: @brass Citation needed, please. I was not aware that Starlink had Earth observation cameras. I would like to know more. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By redoubt: Originally Posted By brass: @Enzo300 That's already in progress. The Starlink constellation have cameras on them both looking out and looking down. Once the pattern is dense enough, that many cameras can be tiled together to give higher magnification for about a 50,000 foot view of anywhere on Earth - Basically Google Earth "Live" like in Snow Crash. That's not quite available yet as the pattern isn't dense enough but it will be if the launch rate of the satellite strings continues. @brass Citation needed, please. I was not aware that Starlink had Earth observation cameras. I would like to know more. Star tracking cameras mentioned there but i don't see one on earth facing. It was something he talked about prior to any of the launches and may have been nixed. Third, the star tracker cameras are located on the sides of the chassis (the only place they can go and have adequate field of view). Rolling knife edge to the Sun can point one star tracker directly at the Earth and the other one directly at the Sun, which would cause the satellite to have degraded attitude knowledge. |
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Posted: 1/10/2022 5:56:26 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By brass: Star tracking cameras mentioned there but i don't see one on earth facing. It was something he talked about prior to any of the launches and may have been nixed. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By brass: Originally Posted By redoubt: Originally Posted By brass: @Enzo300 That's already in progress. The Starlink constellation have cameras on them both looking out and looking down. Once the pattern is dense enough, that many cameras can be tiled together to give higher magnification for about a 50,000 foot view of anywhere on Earth - Basically Google Earth "Live" like in Snow Crash. That's not quite available yet as the pattern isn't dense enough but it will be if the launch rate of the satellite strings continues. @brass Citation needed, please. I was not aware that Starlink had Earth observation cameras. I would like to know more. Star tracking cameras mentioned there but i don't see one on earth facing. It was something he talked about prior to any of the launches and may have been nixed. Third, the star tracker cameras are located on the sides of the chassis (the only place they can go and have adequate field of view). Rolling knife edge to the Sun can point one star tracker directly at the Earth and the other one directly at the Sun, which would cause the satellite to have degraded attitude knowledge. Thanks. I was aware of the star-trackers. Earth observation cameras must have been nixed in the final design. |
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Posted: 1/10/2022 6:03:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Jacon]
[#8]
They stated that because of the launch accuracy and the minimal course corrections, they now have ~20 years of propellant on board. That's awesome news!
Propellant, outside of catastrophic failure, was the only limiting resource to extending the life of Webb. |
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Posted: 1/10/2022 6:07:08 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By midcap: wasn't that like 1960s tech they were using to grind the mirror? Seems like lots of room for error with the old stuff Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By midcap: Originally Posted By QuantumPion: Originally Posted By StewartTR: Always figured Hubble was a spy sat pointing out instead of in. Maybe that's why the primary mirror got ground wrong. lol Yes I believe that Hubble was indeed based on the same design as operating spy sats, which is why it had had certain design features like its mirror size already set. But the mirror mis-grinding was just a f-up by the vendor that set the parameters wrong in the grinding machine, and the error was not caught because the same error was used in the verification machine or something like that. wasn't that like 1960s tech they were using to grind the mirror? Seems like lots of room for error with the old stuff |
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Posted: 1/10/2022 6:27:16 PM EDT
[#10]
How well will the JWST be able to resolve pictures of the closest exoplanets?
Like looking at Jupiter through a cheap telescope? Like looking at the moon through a cardboard tube? Or just some dots of light? |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 1/10/2022 6:49:37 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By midcap: wasn't that like 1960s tech they were using to grind the mirror? Seems like lots of room for error with the old stuff Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By midcap: Originally Posted By QuantumPion: Originally Posted By StewartTR: Always figured Hubble was a spy sat pointing out instead of in. Maybe that's why the primary mirror got ground wrong. lol Yes I believe that Hubble was indeed based on the same design as operating spy sats, which is why it had had certain design features like its mirror size already set. But the mirror mis-grinding was just a f-up by the vendor that set the parameters wrong in the grinding machine, and the error was not caught because the same error was used in the verification machine or something like that. wasn't that like 1960s tech they were using to grind the mirror? Seems like lots of room for error with the old stuff (2012) NRO gives NASA 2 spy sats with larger mirrors |
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Posted: 1/10/2022 7:05:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: johnh57]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By QuantumPion: Yes I believe that Hubble was indeed based on the same design as operating spy sats, which is why it had had certain design features like its mirror size already set. But the mirror mis-grinding was just a f-up by the vendor that set the parameters wrong in the griniding machine, and the error was not caught because the same error was used in the verification machine or something like that. The really sad thing was there a photograph published showing them assembling or working on the hubble mirror in a clean room. You can actually see the spherical aberration of the mirror in the image in the photograph and no one caught it. I think it was later published in aviation leak. |
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Posted: 1/10/2022 10:58:45 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By midcap: basically it's going to see things outside the visible spectrum, mostly Infared, which is heat, so that's why it has to be super cold on the sensors side its objective is to see further into the begining of the universe and find aliens L2 orbit is about 1,000,000 miles away its moving away right now but will be stationary in orbit and tidal locked with the earth using the earth as a shield from the sun.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cUe4oMk69EI believe you are incorrect It will be in an orbit around Lagrange pt 2 and will not be hidden from the sun by the earth. That would not let the solar panels work and also that's what the sun shield is for. |
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Posted: 1/10/2022 11:13:46 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Surfdiver: I believe you are incorrect It will be in an orbit around Lagrange pt 2 and will not be hidden from the sun by the earth. That would not let the solar panels work and also that's what the sun shield is for. Correct. It's orbit around l2 is similar in size to the moon's orbit around earth and takes about 6 months to complete one orbit. It isn't going to be in earth shadow. |
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Posted: 1/11/2022 12:14:40 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Surfdiver: I believe you are incorrect It will be in an orbit around Lagrange pt 2 and will not be hidden from the sun by the earth. That would not let the solar panels work and also that's what the sun shield is for. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Surfdiver: Originally Posted By midcap: basically it's going to see things outside the visible spectrum, mostly Infared, which is heat, so that's why it has to be super cold on the sensors side its objective is to see further into the begining of the universe and find aliens L2 orbit is about 1,000,000 miles away its moving away right now but will be stationary in orbit and tidal locked with the earth using the earth as a shield from the sun. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cUe4oMk69EI believe you are incorrect It will be in an orbit around Lagrange pt 2 and will not be hidden from the sun by the earth. That would not let the solar panels work and also that's what the sun shield is for. my bad...too bad they couldn't sync it up 
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Posted: 1/11/2022 12:19:20 AM EDT
[#16]
Animation of the Webb orbit
 Animation: The James Webb Space Telescope's Orbit |
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Posted: 1/11/2022 12:48:12 AM EDT
[#17]
With all the tech and transmission ability on the Webb, did they include a camera to at least send some recordings/images back to Earth to show the "human eye" view of things as it traveled to L2 or what L2 looks like to the human eye, without any magnification? I know keeping weight down is critical, but there's a lot to be said for the PR gained for NASA from the images that capture things like a view of the Earth from the moon.
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Posted: 1/11/2022 12:49:48 AM EDT
[#18]
What's the purpose of such a wide orbit about the L2 point?
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Posted: 1/11/2022 12:53:54 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TacticalGarand44: What's the purpose of such a wide orbit about the L2 point? I think it has to yeet it self that far because the earth is gonna pull it in? 
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Posted: 1/11/2022 8:51:03 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TacticalGarand44: What's the purpose of such a wide orbit about the L2 point? I think it has something to do with the Earth's elliptical orbit. Orbiting the L2 point keeps the spacecraft in the gravitational null. I could easily be wrong. 
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Posted: 1/11/2022 8:58:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Hater]
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By johnh57: Animation of the Webb orbit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cUe4oMk69E |
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Posted: 1/11/2022 12:22:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: johnh57]
[#22]
Probably why the orbit is as large as it is, and the orbit is not perpendicular to the line from l2 through earth to the sun, so eventually it covers a fair amount of the sky. They know years in advance what its orientation is so they can plan their activities accordingly.
I don't think they can wake up Monday morning and decide to go look at Jupiter today just for something to do. They do have the ability to adjust its orientation, without using thrusters (and fuel). Eta: it can rotate on its axis though. If you need to look along the plane of our solar system turn it 90 degrees. It actually has a pretty full capability. |
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Posted: 1/11/2022 12:45:03 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hater: Okay, based on that animation, here's a dumb question that's been vexing me. If you have to orient the sunshield towards the sun (duh) for the instruments to work, and the sun and the earth and the rest of the planets are on the same ecliptic plane, and every picture I've seen of JWST shows the mirror pointing at a right angle to the sunshield, how do you orient the mirror to look at any angle other than 90 degrees up or 90 degrees down from the ecliptic? Does the mirror have a pitch mechanism that will orient it other than a right angle vs the sunshield ? Or does the sunshield not have to be perpendicular to the sun? I think this video covers this. But if not, it's worth the 30 minutes to watch. It covers a lot of stuff about JWST.  How Does The James Webb Space Telescope Work? - Smarter Every Day 262 |
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Posted: 1/11/2022 1:55:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: exDefensorMilitas]
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hater: Okay, based on that animation, here's a dumb question that's been vexing me. If you have to orient the sunshield towards the sun (duh) for the instruments to work, and the sun and the earth and the rest of the planets are on the same ecliptic plane, and every picture I've seen of JWST shows the mirror pointing at a right angle to the sunshield, how do you orient the mirror to look at any angle other than 90 degrees up or 90 degrees down from the ecliptic? Does the mirror have a pitch mechanism that will orient it other than a right angle vs the sunshield ? Or does the sunshield not have to be perpendicular to the sun? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hater: Originally Posted By johnh57: Animation of the Webb orbit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cUe4oMk69EStarting at 6:23, the maximum deflection/adjustment range of the JWST is explained  How NASA's $10 Billion Origami Telescope Will Unfold The Early Universe |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 1/11/2022 2:24:01 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wangstang: With all the tech and transmission ability on the Webb, did they include a camera to at least send some recordings/images back to Earth to show the "human eye" view of things as it traveled to L2 or what L2 looks like to the human eye, without any magnification? I know keeping weight down is critical, but there's a lot to be said for the PR gained for NASA from the images that capture things like a view of the Earth from the moon. Nope. Their reasoning is explained in this thread:
But basically, increased complexity and it’d just be another potential failure point that could fuck up everything else |
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Posted: 1/11/2022 2:28:56 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rudukai13: Nope. Their reasoning is explained in this thread:
But basically, increased complexity and it’d just be another potential failure point that could fuck up everything else There isn't a whole lot of light on the business side of the thing. Pics aren't going to show much. |
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Posted: 1/12/2022 12:32:31 AM EDT
[#27]
I just saw a tweet from NASA saying that Arianne did such a great job with the push from the rocket, that JWST should have enough fuel for at least 20 years!!!!
https://www.space.com/james-webb-space-telescope-fuel-20-years |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 1/12/2022 4:32:44 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By midcap: I just saw a tweet from NASA saying that Arianne did such a great job with the push from the rocket, that JWST should have enough fuel for at least 20 years!!!! https://www.space.com/james-webb-space-telescope-fuel-20-years Depends on how well the final orbital insertion burn goes but that’s what they’re currently estimating |
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Posted: 1/12/2022 6:19:19 PM EDT
[#29]
video https://video.twimg.com/amplify_video/1481367290595663880/vid/1280x720/ijyLgcYKiTS1mAM-.mp4?tag=14 |
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Posted: 1/12/2022 6:21:41 PM EDT
[#30]
when it's that cold, but you want it colder.. can't imagine..
Hot Side: 130F (sunshield structure average temp) 51F (spacecraft bus equipment panel average temp) Cold Side: -315F (primary mirror average temperature) -328F (instrument radiator temperature) The James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) sunshield is a passive thermal control system deployed post-launch to shield the telescope and instrumentation from the light and heat of the Sun, Earth, and Moon. Its purpose is to enable the infrared telescope to function at or below its design temperature of 40 kelvins (−233 °C; −388 °F) |
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Posted: 1/12/2022 6:26:51 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RED_5: when it's that cold, but you want it colder.. can't imagine.. Hot Side: 130F (sunshield structure average temp) 51F (spacecraft bus equipment panel average temp) Cold Side: -315F (primary mirror average temperature) -328F (instrument radiator temperature) The James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) sunshield is a passive thermal control system deployed post-launch to shield the telescope and instrumentation from the light and heat of the Sun, Earth, and Moon. Its purpose is to enable the infrared telescope to function at or below its design temperature of 40 kelvins (−233 °C; −388 °F) How long ago would capabilities like that have seemed like mad science? The 80s? Perhaps the mid 70s with Skylab's overheating issues? |
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Posted: 1/12/2022 8:39:51 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hesperus: How long ago would capabilities like that have seemed like mad science? The 80s? Perhaps the mid 70s with Skylab's overheating issues? |
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Posted: 1/12/2022 9:12:27 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RED_5: when it's that cold, but you want it colder.. can't imagine.. Hot Side: 130F (sunshield structure average temp) 51F (spacecraft bus equipment panel average temp) Cold Side: -315F (primary mirror average temperature) -328F (instrument radiator temperature) The James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) sunshield is a passive thermal control system deployed post-launch to shield the telescope and instrumentation from the light and heat of the Sun, Earth, and Moon. Its purpose is to enable the infrared telescope to function at or below its design temperature of 40 kelvins (233 C; 388 F) A device that cools Helium down to 6 degrees Kelvin (-448.866F), just 6 degrees K above absolute zero - and it cools the sensor on the MIRI to 6.5 degrees Kelvin. |
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Posted: 1/12/2022 11:02:25 PM EDT
[#34]
Just passed the 750,000 mile mark. Only 148 000 to go.
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CO, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2022 3:16:17 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Chokey:
https://i.imgur.com/ckzcZyu.gif
video https://video.twimg.com/amplify_video/1481367290595663880/vid/1280x720/ijyLgcYKiTS1mAM-.mp4?tag=14 So not only do we have a working telescope, it’ll be the fully functional telescope it was designed to be |
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Posted: 1/13/2022 5:53:46 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hesperus: How long ago would capabilities like that have seemed like mad science? The 80s? Perhaps the mid 70s with Skylab's overheating issues? Skylab's issue was that it lost it's sunshade at launch, along with a solar panel if I remember correctly. It wouldn't have had the over heating issue if it hadn't taken that damage. And it was resolved with basically the same technology. A hastily sewn together shade made from kapton that the first crew deployed during an EVA. 
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Posted: 1/13/2022 5:54:37 PM EDT
[#37]
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Posted: 1/13/2022 9:53:25 PM EDT
[#38]
she sure slowed down a bit...
0.1895mi/s Cruising Speed (682 MPH) 132412.0mi. To L2 Orbit 193 hrs to go
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Posted: 1/13/2022 10:20:01 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RED_5: she sure slowed down a bit... 0.1895mi/s Cruising Speed (682 MPH) 132412.0mi. To L2 Orbit 193 hrs to go It's relative speed. |
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Posted: 1/14/2022 12:50:31 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SecretSquirell: It's relative speed. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SecretSquirell: Originally Posted By RED_5: she sure slowed down a bit... 0.1895mi/s Cruising Speed (682 MPH) 132412.0mi. To L2 Orbit 193 hrs to go It's relative speed. So it's like hauling ass relative to other soalr systems then? |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 1/14/2022 1:20:23 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By brass: Star tracking cameras mentioned there but i don't see one on earth facing. It was something he talked about prior to any of the launches and may have been nixed. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By brass: Originally Posted By redoubt: Originally Posted By brass: @Enzo300 That's already in progress. The Starlink constellation have cameras on them both looking out and looking down. Once the pattern is dense enough, that many cameras can be tiled together to give higher magnification for about a 50,000 foot view of anywhere on Earth - Basically Google Earth "Live" like in Snow Crash. That's not quite available yet as the pattern isn't dense enough but it will be if the launch rate of the satellite strings continues. @brass Citation needed, please. I was not aware that Starlink had Earth observation cameras. I would like to know more. Star tracking cameras mentioned there but i don't see one on earth facing. It was something he talked about prior to any of the launches and may have been nixed. Third, the star tracker cameras are located on the sides of the chassis (the only place they can go and have adequate field of view). Rolling knife edge to the Sun can point one star tracker directly at the Earth and the other one directly at the Sun, which would cause the satellite to have degraded attitude knowledge. star trackers are for positioning and telemetry data . The starlink bus does not have an integrated observatory. The cost of prepping them for a camera with a usable lens would be cost prohibitive. Just the TVAC cycles to remove particulates from the hardware would run the project another 10 years. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 1/14/2022 12:32:29 PM EDT
[#42]
Ten more days, 122.5k miles to go.
Now that The Expanse is over I have to get my space porn from this giant beautiful bastard
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Posted: 1/14/2022 12:49:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: johnh57]
[#43]
Wonder how much fuel they burn to put it in the l2 orbit? From the orbit dimensions they gave they need to turn the thing about 90 deg from its current trajectory and accelerate it to roughly .1 mi/sec. Roughly 500,000 mile (diameter) orbit with a 6 month orbital cycle.
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Posted: 1/15/2022 9:29:07 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By redoubt: I think this video covers this. But if not, it's worth the 30 minutes to watch. It covers a lot of stuff about JWST. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P8fKd0IVOsThanks for that. It's always refreshing to listen to super smart people who are able (and willing) to explain complex things to laymen like me. |
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Posted: 1/15/2022 3:40:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AJE]
[#45]
Now this thread may get boring for a couple months
 I set the thread not to fall into the archives just in case |
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Posted: 1/15/2022 3:41:39 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AJE: Now this thread may get boring for a couple months Can the mods set this for non archive status? @DK-prof |
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Posted: 1/15/2022 3:49:39 PM EDT
[#47]
Noticed that two of the mirrors are still at 12.3mm
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Posted: 1/15/2022 3:53:52 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fike: Noticed that two of the mirrors are still at 12.3mm Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fike: Noticed that two of the mirrors are still at 12.3mm NOTE: Segment A3 and A6 will be moved separately at the end of the process because their position sensors are read out in a different way. |
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Posted: 1/15/2022 3:56:24 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fike: Noticed that two of the mirrors are still at 12.3mm They're moving them one at a time and only over very short intervals to keep from putting heat from the motors into the mirrors. It's going to take weeks to get things aligned. |
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Posted: 1/15/2022 4:06:57 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RED_5: Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RED_5: Originally Posted By fike: Noticed that two of the mirrors are still at 12.3mm NOTE: Segment A3 and A6 will be moved separately at the end of the process because their position sensors are read out in a different way. Lol. RIF. Thanks. |
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