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Posted: 5/3/2019 11:15:26 AM EDT
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Better go lock the dupe
https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Remington-article-from-NYT/5-2217386/ Interesting article, sucks for the guys in AL. Also not surprising at all A source told me that Cerberus executives were disappointed in the way the Remington transaction turned out; you never want your companies to end up in bankruptcy. Even so, for the firm, at least, the decade-long saga had been profitable. View Quote ![]() |
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Better go lock the dupe https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Remington-article-from-NYT/5-2217386/ View Quote |
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Better go lock the dupe https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Remington-article-from-NYT/5-2217386/ Interesting article, sucks for the guys in AL. Also not surprising at all ![]() View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Better go lock the dupe https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Remington-article-from-NYT/5-2217386/ Interesting article, sucks for the guys in AL. Also not surprising at all A source told me that Cerberus executives were disappointed in the way the Remington transaction turned out; you never want your companies to end up in bankruptcy. Even so, for the firm, at least, the decade-long saga had been profitable. ![]() ![]() |
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Private equity firms are the devil incarnate. They make millions and don't give a damn about the debris fields they leave behind. So many lives ruined to enrich a few. It is not capitalism at all. They should be illegal.
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I don’t understand what the purpose of talking about desegregation in the article was.
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KKR owns Academy Sports. The clock is ticking on them too if private equity historical actions are an indicator. Toy's R Us got killed the same way.
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Better go lock the dupe https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Remington-article-from-NYT/5-2217386/ View Quote |
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I don’t understand what the purpose of talking about desegregation in the article was. View Quote |
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Good read. Thanks for finding this and sharing OP. I don't think any other ARFCOMer would have ever posted this here since it is from the MSM NYT.
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The private equity firms will be the end of a lot of companies
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Better go lock the dupe https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Remington-article-from-NYT/5-2217386/ Interesting article, sucks for the guys in AL. Also not surprising at all ![]() View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Better go lock the dupe https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Remington-article-from-NYT/5-2217386/ Interesting article, sucks for the guys in AL. Also not surprising at all A source told me that Cerberus executives were disappointed in the way the Remington transaction turned out; you never want your companies to end up in bankruptcy. Even so, for the firm, at least, the decade-long saga had been profitable. ![]() |
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With the exception of the liberal BS sprinkled throughout, I can say they hit the nail on the head. There's a huge gross negligence problem at the Huntsville plant and it starts from the top down. They have slowly been withering since I started there and now they've gotten to the point where they can barely keep two shifts operating. I want to see them start moving in the right direction, not only because they sign my checks, but because I appreciate the history of Remington and what they've accomplished in the last 203 years. There's a plethora of issues with Remington and the Huntsville plant in general, but many of those issues are able to be resolved if there is a change in strategy and in leadership starting from the top of the ladder. I hate to see them struggle from the inside, but that's the nature of the beast when you sell out to a company like Succubus (Cerebus). Just my .02.
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Better go lock the dupe https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Remington-article-from-NYT/5-2217386/ Interesting article, sucks for the guys in AL. Also not surprising at all A source told me that Cerberus executives were disappointed in the way the Remington transaction turned out; you never want your companies to end up in bankruptcy. Even so, for the firm, at least, the decade-long saga had been profitable. ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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The article isn't bad, but could be better.
Here are a few things the author ommitted: 1. The holding company Cerebus created to purchase Remington was called the Freedom Group. 2. I saw no mention of Sandy Hook. 3. After Sandy Hook, a large investor in Cerebus, the Cal. St. Teachers Union, did not want their retirement money invested in a gun company. They wanted out. 4. I understand that Cerebus had Remington take on the large loans in order to buy out the CSTU. 5. Cerebus no longer owns Remington. The former creditors now own it. |
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Private equity firms are the devil incarnate. They make millions and don't give a damn about the debris fields they leave behind. So many lives ruined to enrich a few. It is not capitalism at all. They should be illegal. View Quote They help turn businesses around, provide capital for growth, provide connections and expertise, etc. They are generally very well aligned with capitalism. There are some predatory groups out there for sure, but that too is capitalism. Absolutely zero need for additional regulation. Period. |
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Sure makes you see some of the reasoning behind all the "corporate greed" hate.
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The private equity firms will be the end of a lot of companies View Quote |
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I finished the article, and some of it is just bullshit:
Huntsville is a de facto segregated city. - I actually agree with this. Pastor T.C. Johnson, of St. Luke Missionary Baptist Church, recounted to me how while he was in the Army in the early 1990s, real estate agents didn’t show him houses in South Huntsville, the white side of town. He was unaware South Huntsville existed until some of his Army subordinates, who were white, bought homes there. - Bullshit. Absolute bullshit. The Redstone Arsenal currently has 2 gates that butt up against South Huntsville, and even had more before 9/11 caused the post to change security/access procedures. In the early 1990s, South Huntsville was the up and coming place to live in. I don't know shit about Pastor Johnson, but if he was getting lower enlisted BAH, he couldn't have afforded South Huntsville. And, was his real estate agent black by chance? Maybe the agent assumed he'd be more comfortable in the blacker part of town. Since 1965 Huntsville’s schools have been under a federal desegregation order, which compels school districts to remedy race-based inequality. Johnson’s oldest son attended Mae Jemison High, a predominantly black school that the state classified as failing. White students at nearby schools “were so far ahead of my child it was almost sickening,” he said. - Not true. Huntsville City Schools voluntarily agreed to continue making efforts to "remedy race-based inequality" in 2013. It is even in the fucking link the NYT provided. Jemison High sucks, in part because every black family that can afford it would rather send their kids to private school than to JHS. Not to mention, "the community" around Jemison is still butthurt about it replacing the old high school, Johnson (named for a staunch ass segregationist, BTW). The same time Johnson closed, another high school that had a poor, white demographic closed - Butler. There was not any "they tying to whitewash our history" bullshit from the Butler alumni. If it sickenates him, then he should do something about it, but I guess any of the Catholic schools (which offer scholarships to those who can't afford it) are out of the question since Mr. Johnson is a Pastor at a MBC. Johnson’s experience was of a piece with the racial hierarchy in Huntsville. Blacks make up 31 percent of the city’s population but make up 16 percent of its police force. - How does that differ from other metropolitan areas in the South? Unlike Birmingham and Mobile, there has never been a black mayor in Huntsville. - Birmingham is 75% black and Mobile is over 50% black. Since Huntsville is only 31% black, this isn't some conspiracy. Though blacks, like all Huntsvillians, paid the taxes that supported lucrative incentive packages, they seldom reaped the rewards of the best-paying jobs. This reality was of course not felt by whites, Johnson said. For whites, “that’s just the way it is.” - I've also paid the taxes to support the police force which has has had to respond to the higher crime in the other areas. I have seen Huntsville Hospital install a TSA like checkpoint to the ER. That's just the way it is. Classes for new hires were held three days a week, every week. About a year after the factory opened, leaders in Huntsville’s black community, including Johnson, began to hear reports from inside. Johnson was disappointed but not surprised to learn from his parishioners that on the Remington line, the usual racial divisions manifested. Most of the line workers were black, whereas most of the managers and engineers were white. - Oh where to begin. A year's worth of training was provided by the state for those line workers (there were also programs at the area JUCOs specifically for Remington; unsure if those were free to the students or if they had to pay like a regular community college class or not) which is obviously needed to be taken advantage of by the people needing jobs - who happen to be black - and this is a problem? Regarding the engineers being white; the lack of minority in STEM fields has been well documented. It isn't exclusive to Huntsville. Regarding the management being white; was this management relocated from Ilion (95% white), Saint Cloud (91% white), or somewhere else Freedom Group consolidated (with the exception of AAC and TAPCO located in the ATL metro area were all in in very white areas)? Considering Huntsville is one of the most educated cities in America, some bullshit Business Administration degree from a degree mill might not cut it. And the next paragraph: As a result, he tended to be suspicious of Southern bosses — “I have a warped mind when it comes to Alabama,” he told me — and he expected an oppositional management at Remington. But another obstacle surprised him. Oh, so Remington treating it's employees like shit isn't because of the systemic racism in Huntsville, Alabama, or the South? This was Freedom Group being Freedom group. Shocking... I could have read ARFCOM to figure that out. |
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Ditto, when these private equity firms get a hold of a company, they drain it for as much money leaving current owner and creditors holding the bag. Many good company's demise went that way. These equity companies have zero interest in running the company as an on-going concern. View Quote For a business to get picked off by one, it has to be in dire straits that the sale would be appealing. |
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Pretty decent article, reminded me heavily of Brian Alexander's Glass House.
We saw a lot of this happening in real time here. Bushmaster went to shit, AAC lost their presence , Marlin turned into remlins etc. How many duds are in a 2013 production brick of golden bullets? Cerberus is aptly, abet unintentionally named. It really is the hound of hades. There seems to be a continuum between two extremes of shitty quality, on one hand you have old Detroit type stuff where cars are built by unfireable drunk/high people, on the other, if you pay temps peanuts with shitty management, its equally bad. |
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That year, Remington earned $191 million in gross profit on $809 million of revenue. View Quote |
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BLUF: Bad management (including ownership) kills companies with good products.
In my working life, I have worked a variety of places, including three manufacturing companies. All three are no longer in business. I was laid off from two, and I left the third a few months before it died. All three had good products with strong markets sales, but all three had the same fatal flaw - bad management. In each case, all were private companies, that were owned and managed by members of the same family, often multi-generational. Without fail, disfunctionality within the familes spread to the management of the company, and the death spiral started. Usually the family disfunctionality and bad management were tied to money issues. In a "good" company, it makes a product, sells the product, then pays employees, suppliers, and other obligations with income received from sales. Leftover funds after meeting obligations went to employees (raises, incentives, future investment in the facility, etc.) In the companies I worked for, it always seemed to be make a product, sell the product, pay employees with income received from sales. No raises or incentives, and playing revolving credit games with and maybe stringing along suppliers, and other obligations. Leftover funds were gobbled up somehow, usually in luxuries for the management. Over time, this spread to employees being laid off / fired, so managment could continue their lifestyles, and so eventually the products suffered, market sales suffered, and so on. Remington appears to be the same story, in a different way. JMHO. |
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I finished the article, and some of it is just bullshit: Huntsville is a de facto segregated city. - I actually agree with this. Pastor T.C. Johnson, of St. Luke Missionary Baptist Church, recounted to me how while he was in the Army in the early 1990s, real estate agents didn't show him houses in South Huntsville, the white side of town. He was unaware South Huntsville existed until some of his Army subordinates, who were white, bought homes there. - Bullshit. Absolute bullshit. The Redstone Arsenal currently has 2 gates that butt up against South Huntsville, and even had more before 9/11 caused the post to change security/access procedures. In the early 1990s, South Huntsville was the up and coming place to live in. I don't know shit about Pastor Johnson, but if he was getting lower enlisted BAH, he couldn't have afforded South Huntsville. And, was his real estate agent black by chance? Maybe the agent assumed he'd be more comfortable in the blacker part of town. By the 1990's, MADISON was the place to be. South Huntsville was the place in the 1980's, when we moved there from the Arsenal. Since 1965 Huntsville's schools have been under a federal desegregation order, which compels school districts to remedy race-based inequality. Johnson's oldest son attended Mae Jemison High, a predominantly black school that the state classified as failing. White students at nearby schools "were so far ahead of my child it was almost sickening," he said. - Not true. Huntsville City Schools voluntarily agreed to continue making efforts to "remedy race-based inequality" in 2013. It is even in the fucking link the NYT provided. Jemison High sucks, in part because every black family that can afford it would rather send their kids to private school than to JHS. Not to mention, "the community" around Jemison is still butthurt about it replacing the old high school, Johnson (named for a staunch ass segregationist, BTW). The same time Johnson closed, another high school that had a poor, white demographic closed - Butler. There was not any "they tying to whitewash our history" bullshit from the Butler alumni. If it sickenates him, then he should do something about it, but I guess any of the Catholic schools (which offer scholarships to those who can't afford it) are out of the question since Mr. Johnson is a Pastor at a MBC. Butler was about evenly racially mixed when I attended in the early 1980's and was known for having race riots every other year. A large part of why I told my parents to look in Grissom's district when we left the Arsenal. I'd previously lived in Hawai'i, where the racial tensions weren't as strong, so it was a surprise to have senior football players starting fights with me because I was white or having people try to run me down in the parking lot while I was going to drill team practice. Johnson's experience was of a piece with the racial hierarchy in Huntsville. Blacks make up 31 percent of the city's population but make up 16 percent of its police force. - How does that differ from other metropolitan areas in the South? Sucks when criminal convictions bar a significant percentage of a demographic from the job. Unlike Birmingham and Mobile, there has never been a black mayor in Huntsville. - Birmingham is 75% black and Mobile is over 50% black. Since Huntsville is only 31% black, this isn't some conspiracy. Though blacks, like all Huntsvillians, paid the taxes that supported lucrative incentive packages, they seldom reaped the rewards of the best-paying jobs. This reality was of course not felt by whites, Johnson said. For whites, "that's just the way it is." - I've also paid the taxes to support the police force which has has had to respond to the higher crime in the other areas. I have seen Huntsville Hospital install a TSA like checkpoint to the ER. That's just the way it is. Classes for new hires were held three days a week, every week. About a year after the factory opened, leaders in Huntsville's black community, including Johnson, began to hear reports from inside. Johnson was disappointed but not surprised to learn from his parishioners that on the Remington line, the usual racial divisions manifested. Most of the line workers were black, whereas most of the managers and engineers were white. - Oh where to begin. A year's worth of training was provided by the state for those line workers (there were also programs at the area JUCOs specifically for Remington; unsure if those were free to the students or if they had to pay like a regular community college class or not) which is obviously needed to be taken advantage of by the people needing jobs - who happen to be black - and this is a problem? Regarding the engineers being white; the lack of minority in STEM fields has been well documented. It isn't exclusive to Huntsville. Regarding the management being white; was this management relocated from Ilion (95% white), Saint Cloud (91% white), or somewhere else Freedom Group consolidated (with the exception of AAC and TAPCO located in the ATL metro area were all in in very white areas)? Considering Huntsville is one of the most educated cities in America, some bullshit Business Administration degree from a degree mill might not cut it. Engineers were white? You mean the ones who had to take a four year engineering degree in college? A program of study requiring lots of math and science? And you're wondering why your constituents who barely graduated high school and can only read at a fourth grade level aren't in equivalent jobs? And the next paragraph: As a result, he tended to be suspicious of Southern bosses "I have a warped mind when it comes to Alabama," he told me and he expected an oppositional management at Remington. But another obstacle surprised him. Oh, so Remington treating it's employees like shit isn't because of the systemic racism in Huntsville, Alabama, or the South? This was Freedom Group being Freedom group. Shocking... I could have read ARFCOM to figure that out. Huntsville is largely made up of transplants from the rest of the country, it's not strongly Southern (my Dad remembered when it was MUCH smaller and much more Southern). Now, go over to Limestone County, yeah, you're getting into strong Southern territory. View Quote |
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True, however if you really consider the reality here, equity firms are more of a death knell of companies that are already going out of business. For a business to get picked off by one, it has to be in dire straits that the sale would be appealing. View Quote And running them into the ground is not necessarily a goal most of these firms want. It makes more sense and makes them more money to improve a company and sell it off than it does running it into the ground. Make more money over the long run than you do burying one. If company is already failing, yh makes sense cus parting it out etc can make sense and return profit. |
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Better go lock the dupe https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Remington-article-from-NYT/5-2217386/ Interesting article, sucks for the guys in AL. Also not surprising at all A source told me that Cerberus executives were disappointed in the way the Remington transaction turned out; you never want your companies to end up in bankruptcy. Even so, for the firm, at least, the decade-long saga had been profitable. ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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Can someone explain how PE firms make money running businesses into the ground? Wouldn't they want companies to be successful so they could sell them?
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Can someone explain how PE firms make money running businesses into the ground? Wouldn't they want companies to be successful so they could sell them? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Can someone explain how PE firms make money running businesses into the ground? Wouldn't they want companies to be successful so they could sell them? In order to buy Remington, Cerberus, as most private-equity firms would, created a new entity, a holding company. Instead of Cerberus buying a gun company, Cerberus put money into the holding company, and the holding company bought Remington. The entities were related but — and this was crucial — each could borrow money independently. In 2010, Cerberus had the holding company borrow $225 million from an undisclosed group of lenders, most likely hedge funds. Because this loan was risky — the lenders would be paid only if Remington made a lot of money or was sold — the holding company offered a generous interest rate of around 11 percent, much higher than a typical corporate loan. When the interest payments were due, the holding company paid them not in cash but with paid-in-kind notes, that is, with more debt. These are known as PIK notes.
The holding company now had $225 million in borrowed cash. Cerberus, meanwhile, owned most of the shares of the holding company’s stock, basically slips of paper they acquired when they created the holding company. The handoff happened next: The holding company spent most of the $225 million buying back its own stock, effectively transferring all the borrowed cash to Cerberus. Cerberus would keep that money no matter what. Meanwhile Remington continued rolling along as though nothing had happened, because Remington itself was not responsible for the holding company’s debt. Remington was just an “operating company” that the holding company owned, something that allowed the holding company to borrow money, the way you would take a necklace to a pawnshop. These were garden-variety maneuvers in a private-equity buyout. In the trade, this is called “financial engineering.” People get degrees in it. In April 2012, Cerberus did something fateful, which probably seemed smart at the time. It had Remington borrow hundreds of millions of dollars and use it to buy the holding company’s debt, effectively transferring responsibility for the principal and the interest payments onto Remington. America’s oldest gun company now owed the money that Cerberus had used to pay itself back for having bought the company in the first place. There were plenty of sensible reasons to do this. Gun sales were high, and the debt that Remington took out was cheaper to service than the paid-in-kind debt. But there was a catch. Because the operating company borrowed the money with a normal loan — and not with PIK notes — interest payments were required in cash. Suddenly Remington was carrying hundreds of millions of dollars in debt that, if it could not be paid, would cause the business to go bankrupt. |
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Long read.
Interesting. Those smart guys in the big buildings playing average Americans like suckers. ![]() I wonder if Trumps Bumpstock BS was/is an lame attempt to panic people into buying more guns? |
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I finished the article, and some of it is just bullshit: Huntsville is a de facto segregated city. - I actually agree with this. Pastor T.C. Johnson, of St. Luke Missionary Baptist Church, recounted to me how while he was in the Army in the early 1990s, real estate agents didn’t show him houses in South Huntsville, the white side of town. He was unaware South Huntsville existed until some of his Army subordinates, who were white, bought homes there. - Bullshit. Absolute bullshit. The Redstone Arsenal currently has 2 gates that butt up against South Huntsville, and even had more before 9/11 caused the post to change security/access procedures. In the early 1990s, South Huntsville was the up and coming place to live in. I don't know shit about Pastor Johnson, but if he was getting lower enlisted BAH, he couldn't have afforded South Huntsville. And, was his real estate agent black by chance? Maybe the agent assumed he'd be more comfortable in the blacker part of town. Since 1965 Huntsville’s schools have been under a federal desegregation order, which compels school districts to remedy race-based inequality. Johnson’s oldest son attended Mae Jemison High, a predominantly black school that the state classified as failing. White students at nearby schools “were so far ahead of my child it was almost sickening,” he said. - Not true. Huntsville City Schools voluntarily agreed to continue making efforts to "remedy race-based inequality" in 2013. It is even in the fucking link the NYT provided. Jemison High sucks, in part because every black family that can afford it would rather send their kids to private school than to JHS. Not to mention, "the community" around Jemison is still butthurt about it replacing the old high school, Johnson (named for a staunch ass segregationist, BTW). The same time Johnson closed, another high school that had a poor, white demographic closed - Butler. There was not any "they tying to whitewash our history" bullshit from the Butler alumni. If it sickenates him, then he should do something about it, but I guess any of the Catholic schools (which offer scholarships to those who can't afford it) are out of the question since Mr. Johnson is a Pastor at a MBC. Johnson’s experience was of a piece with the racial hierarchy in Huntsville. Blacks make up 31 percent of the city’s population but make up 16 percent of its police force. - How does that differ from other metropolitan areas in the South? Unlike Birmingham and Mobile, there has never been a black mayor in Huntsville. - Birmingham is 75% black and Mobile is over 50% black. Since Huntsville is only 31% black, this isn't some conspiracy. Though blacks, like all Huntsvillians, paid the taxes that supported lucrative incentive packages, they seldom reaped the rewards of the best-paying jobs. This reality was of course not felt by whites, Johnson said. For whites, “that’s just the way it is.” - I've also paid the taxes to support the police force which has has had to respond to the higher crime in the other areas. I have seen Huntsville Hospital install a TSA like checkpoint to the ER. That's just the way it is. Classes for new hires were held three days a week, every week. About a year after the factory opened, leaders in Huntsville’s black community, including Johnson, began to hear reports from inside. Johnson was disappointed but not surprised to learn from his parishioners that on the Remington line, the usual racial divisions manifested. Most of the line workers were black, whereas most of the managers and engineers were white. - Oh where to begin. A year's worth of training was provided by the state for those line workers (there were also programs at the area JUCOs specifically for Remington; unsure if those were free to the students or if they had to pay like a regular community college class or not) which is obviously needed to be taken advantage of by the people needing jobs - who happen to be black - and this is a problem? Regarding the engineers being white; the lack of minority in STEM fields has been well documented. It isn't exclusive to Huntsville. Regarding the management being white; was this management relocated from Ilion (95% white), Saint Cloud (91% white), or somewhere else Freedom Group consolidated (with the exception of AAC and TAPCO located in the ATL metro area were all in in very white areas)? Considering Huntsville is one of the most educated cities in America, some bullshit Business Administration degree from a degree mill might not cut it. And the next paragraph: As a result, he tended to be suspicious of Southern bosses — “I have a warped mind when it comes to Alabama,” he told me — and he expected an oppositional management at Remington. But another obstacle surprised him. Oh, so Remington treating it's employees like shit isn't because of the systemic racism in Huntsville, Alabama, or the South? This was Freedom Group being Freedom group. Shocking... I could have read ARFCOM to figure that out. View Quote |
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Lol, bullshit. Plenty of minorities in STEM...
It's just that they are Asian, so they don't count. Doesn't fit the narrative |
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Private equity firms are the devil incarnate. They make millions and don't give a damn about the debris fields they leave behind. So many lives ruined to enrich a few. It is not capitalism at all. They should be illegal. View Quote SOP is to buy a company, milk it for everything it's worth, load it up with debt to milk even more money out of it, then declare bankruptcy to leave someone else holding the bag. |
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True, however if you really consider the reality here, equity firms are more of a death knell of companies that are already going out of business. For a business to get picked off by one, it has to be in dire straits that the sale would be appealing. View Quote What these PEFs usually do is bloat them up with as much debt as they can first and funnel all the money right up to themselves, then declare bankruptcy. |
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Quoted: And running them into the ground is not necessarily a goal most of these firms want. It makes more sense and makes them more money to improve a company and sell it off than it does running it into the ground. Make more money over the long run than you do burying one. If company is already failing, yh makes sense cus parting it out etc can make sense and return profit. View Quote |
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It's interesting that that article managed to find a racial angle on what is at its core a financial story.
But, it is the NY Times and parts of the story did occur in Alabama, so I suppose they'd be remiss if they didn't. |
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Can someone explain how PE firms make money running businesses into the ground? Wouldn't they want companies to be successful so they could sell them? View Quote They are fucking rent-seeking vultures and barnacles that use regulatory loopholes to enrich themselves at the expense of others. literally. |
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