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Posted: 9/25/2022 5:31:28 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Alphascout: Ukraine probably needs to think about WW2-era air defense for countering drones, spotters, and aa guns or similar. These things are slow but insidiously small. But with enough eyeballs and optics, they might be able to stop enough of them. A camera with object recognition and tracking would probably be an ideal solution. |
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Posted: 9/25/2022 5:31:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Grendelsbane]
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Radiation seeking? Open sources say yes. |
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USA
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Posted: 9/25/2022 5:31:54 PM EDT
[#3]
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USA
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Posted: 9/25/2022 5:33:48 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Alphascout: Ukraine probably needs to think about WW2-era air defense for countering drones, spotters, and aa guns or similar. These things are slow but insidiously small. But with enough eyeballs and optics, they might be able to stop enough of them. I thought with the advent of modern mobile SAMs AA guns like the Vulcan and Shilka were a dead end. I now realize with how many drones, it makes a lot of sense for short range air defense systems to incorporate a gun as well. I know there are already systems out there that do it, but with how many small and cheap drones can be used I think cheaper solutions are needed in number. Think of MRAP mounted AA guns with Stingers, opposed to more complex Gepard like systems. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 9/25/2022 5:33:54 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charging_Handle: These Iranian drones are a problem. They are demonstrating a capability to hit high value targets (such as HQ buildings) with accuracy. It is probably also only a matter of time until one of these Iranian hunter-killer drones manages to take out an M270 MLRS or M142 HIMARS system. These things need to be dealt with, quickly. While not dismissing them entirely, so far all they have hit has been large, fixed targets. So their targeting system might not be anything more sophisticated than GPS. Still worrisome, but not the end of the world. The fact that they were able to get to Odessa without being intercepted is worrying however. |
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USA
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Posted: 9/25/2022 5:33:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: HIPPO]
[#6]
With an 1,800 KM range this presents a significant problem for neutralization if they are set out of range from the borders. |
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USA
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Posted: 9/25/2022 5:34:07 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: The 131 is 300lbs, the 136 is 500lbs. Easily big enough to cause major damage but small enough to be hard to see in the air. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/45449/signal-2022-09-24-12-05-01-917_jpg-2539207.JPG Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By Alphascout: Ukraine probably needs to think about WW2-era air defense for countering drones, spotters, and aa guns or similar. These things are slow but insidiously small. But with enough eyeballs and optics, they might be able to stop enough of them. The 131 is 300lbs, the 136 is 500lbs. Easily big enough to cause major damage but small enough to be hard to see in the air. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/45449/signal-2022-09-24-12-05-01-917_jpg-2539207.JPG Are MANPADS able to down them? I guess target acquisition is a problem given the size. |
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Posted: 9/25/2022 5:36:42 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By M-1975: A good thread:
In the temporarily occupied territories of Ukraine, due to the announced “partial” mobilisation of the Russian forces, changed the treatment of the current professionals with short-term contracts: the length of the contract is now no more relevant, and the duration of stay for them depends on the decision of the command. Any claims to withdraw from the contract will be thrown out, the servicemen will remain in the territory permanently until killed or wounded. In addition, the Russian command has now the right to delay payments for any period of time – a month, two, or more. And if you leave your position or refuse to fight in protest, you may end up in prison for 10 years. Any wrong step is now a punishable crime. These soldiers are so fucked. |
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Posted: 9/25/2022 5:37:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: theskuh]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 4xGM300m: Are MANPADS able to down them? I guess target acquisition is a problem given the size. I am sure but the issue is getting them in the correct positions and timely identification of the threat. You really need a ring of AA guns on 24/7 around everything important and/or an iron dome type setup. If they are as hard to pickup as Daemon is saying (which i don't doubt) they are going to be difficult to interdict. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 9/25/2022 5:37:57 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: The 131 is 300lbs, the 136 is 500lbs. Easily big enough to cause major damage but small enough to be hard to see in the air. Dealing with them in the air, is like finding a needle in hay stack. A moving needle, in the air, adds to the challenge. On the ground, when they are static, would be ideal. Just have to find them, and have the necessary range. |
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Posted: 9/25/2022 5:38:24 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Flogger23m: Yes those are fairly good options. Picture of ATGM hit: https://john1911.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Turkish-M-60T-Damage.jpg https://i.redd.it/gshq2yeb3yz41.jpg Still, if we're going through the trouble of modifying M60s we can just get Germany to donate Leopard 2s. They're better out of the box and can be upgraded as well. But would probably fare better as is if needed to be rushed into service. Turkey, Singapore and Poland are some manufactures that make add on armor and other upgrades. I'm sure Poland would be willing to help. A major upgrade costs half as much as a new tank and you still have an outdated tank. The lack of composite armor is an issue even if you add armor or ERA on. The only way it makes sense is if you have them available already. Figuring out how to repair obsolete M1s would be a better bet than a modified M60…if you own both. |
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Posted: 9/25/2022 5:40:30 PM EDT
[#12]
In Makhachkala, at least 100 people were detained at a protest rally. This was reported by the human rights project OVD-Info. Photos and videos were published in the Dagestan media and public all day, in which the protesters tried to block police cars and beat off the detainees. There are detainees in Yakutsk, where today they also protested against mobilization - according to OVD-Info, there are at least 24 of them. https://t.me/tvrain/58125 |
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Posted: 9/25/2022 5:41:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: stone-age]
[#13]
 Update from Ukraine | Good news from Lyman | Ukraine finally got the Air Defense NASAMS Wow. 2 degrees centigrade at night, and wet rainy weather. |
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Posted: 9/25/2022 5:43:03 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Flogger23m: I thought with the advent of modern mobile SAMs AA guns like the Vulcan and Shilka were a dead end. I now realize with how many drones, it makes a lot of sense for short range air defense systems to incorporate a gun as well. I know there are already systems out there that do it, but with how many small and cheap drones can be used I think cheaper solutions are needed in number. Think of MRAP mounted AA guns with Stingers, opposed to more complex Gepard like systems. While I largely agree, R0N would point out that miniature fusing adds so much cost to guns that a burst of 35mm encroaches on the cost of a new generation of cheap missiles. |
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Posted: 9/25/2022 5:46:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Prime]
[#15]
Mobilization in the village of Chegdomyn, Khabarovsk Territory. The deputy head of the district honestly said that the guys would go "to the slaughter." But this sharply caused an understandable negative reaction from the parents. Hotline: mobilized banned from taking smartphones with them https://www.mk.ru/politics/2022/09/25/goryachaya-liniya-mobilizovannym-zapretili-brat-s-soboy-smartfony.html Mobilized, for security reasons, are forbidden to use phones with advanced multimedia capabilities on the territory of military units. This was reported to "MK" on the "hot line" 122. The exception is a push-button phone. "It will be stored in a designated place and issued to the soldier at a certain time by the daily routine," the service said. In the places of deployment of units, photo and video shooting, including on a phone camera, is prohibited. Earlier, the hotline 122 explained that an alternative civil service during mobilization is not provided. |
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Posted: 9/25/2022 5:46:56 PM EDT
[#16]
Dunno if this has been done yet but from Dutch reporting:
Vote still ongoing but Russia is reporting 93% of the vote is in favor of joining Russia 
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CA, USA
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Posted: 9/25/2022 5:49:02 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kncook: 15%….at gunpoint… Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kncook: Originally Posted By Prime: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
Just to illustrate how deep they're digging to try to drum up numbers, they're having "refugees" vote including having people show up at the Embassies in Moscow- In Yakutsk, more than 200 people voted in a referendum in three days https://ria.ru/20220925/golosovanie-1819330009.html YAKUTSK, Sep 25 – RIA Novosti. According to the results of three days of the referendum in the city of Yakutsk, the number of voters on the accession of the DPR, LPR, Zaporozhye and Kherson regions to the Russian Federation amounted to 229 people, a source from the precinct commission of the referendum in the city told RIA Novosti. Earlier it was reported that following the results of two days of the referendum on the accession of the DPR, LPR, Zaporozhye and Kherson regions to Russia more than 120 refugees voted in Yakutsk. 15%….at gunpoint… Maybe they could get all those "filtered" out to vote. They may not be inclined to vote for Russia, though. |
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Posted: 9/25/2022 5:50:24 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By YaNi05: Will we see a reintroduction of the barrage balloons!? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By YaNi05: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
Every instance they are filmed, they seem to fly in a narrow altitude band. Flak Towers! Flak Towers everywhere!  Joking aside, they need to put some anti drone batteries up around Odessa and Mykolaiv. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 9/25/2022 5:51:13 PM EDT
[#19]
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Posted: 9/25/2022 5:58:36 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HIPPO:
With an 1,800 KM range this presents a significant problem for neutralization if they are set out of range from the borders. |
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USA
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:07:05 PM EDT
[#21]
Russians are scumbags. |
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USA
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:07:21 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lightning_P38: I would imagine that at ranges much past 200km control becomes an issue, they become more of a poor man's cruise missile, the operator can control the flight path, but probably not have access to onboard cameras or sensors. Probably not necessary for hitting static targets like buildings. |
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:07:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Jack67]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Flogger23m: I thought with the advent of modern mobile SAMs AA guns like the Vulcan and Shilka were a dead end. I now realize with how many drones, it makes a lot of sense for short range air defense systems to incorporate a gun as well. I know there are already systems out there that do it, but with how many small and cheap drones can be used I think cheaper solutions are needed in number. Think of MRAP mounted AA guns with Stingers, opposed to more complex Gepard like systems. The US thinking is a 50kw HE laser on a Stryker. These are being delivered now. Stryker engine cools and recharges the laser, so no munitions train. https://www.defensenews.com/land/2022/01/13/army-readies-to-deliver-first-set-of-strykers-with-50-kilowatt-laser-weapons/ Raytheon cartoon porn (the actual units ARE being delivered, not vaporware):  Attached File |
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:10:44 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charging_Handle: These Iranian drones are a problem. They are demonstrating a capability to hit high value targets (such as HQ buildings) with accuracy. It is probably also only a matter of time until one of these Iranian hunter-killer drones manages to take out an M270 MLRS or M142 HIMARS system. These things need to be dealt with, quickly. The Orcs are flying them in on IL-76s, right? The Iranian drones have explosives in them. It would be a real shame if a freedom loving Iranian, or one paid off by the Israelis, stuck a kitchen timer wired to a blasting cap on one before the plane left. |
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:11:43 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime:
In Makhachkala, at least 100 people were detained at a protest rally. This was reported by the human rights project OVD-Info. Photos and videos were published in the Dagestan media and public all day, in which the protesters tried to block police cars and beat off the detainees. There are detainees in Yakutsk, where today they also protested against mobilization - according to OVD-Info, there are at least 24 of them. https://t.me/tvrain/58125 Lol one guy = flash mob
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USA
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:13:15 PM EDT
[#26]
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USA
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:14:07 PM EDT
[#27]
Putin holing up in Sochi. Hope he croaks tonight. |
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:14:22 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By p3590: The Orcs are flying them in on IL-76s, right? The Iranian drones have explosives in them. It would be a real shame if a freedom loving Iranian, or one paid off by the Israelis, stuck a kitchen timer wired to a blasting cap on one before the plane left. Since March, I’ve had dreams of cargo-laden IL-76s falling out of the sky. I have some ideas; this is a valuable new one. ;) |
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:22:47 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: Since March, I’ve had dreams of cargo-laden IL-76s falling out of the sky. I have some ideas; this is a valuable new one. ;) Meanwhile I’m trying to figure out how to convert an F-22 to fire 30x165. For similar purposes. |
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:25:57 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PeepEater: A camera with object recognition and tracking would probably be an ideal solution. Paired with drum or belt fed auto shotguns perhaps? |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:28:29 PM EDT
[#31]
Imagining some civilian with a Cessna 120 with twin PKT Mounted above the wing flying CAP against Iranian Drones over Odessa.
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:30:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By governmentman: Paired with drum or belt fed auto shotguns perhaps? The 136 is 500lbs going at 150kph. I personally don't think shotgun range is going to cut it. The 1500m range on the C-RAM has historically been much shorter than desired. Remember that a big part of range on air defense is not just the actual kinetic engagement envelope, its also got to factor in reaction and decision times. |
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:32:02 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bluegrasshopper: Imagining some civilian with a Cessna 120 with twin PKT Mounted above the wing flying CAP against Iranian Drones over Odessa. Yeah. Maybe with some kind of rapid response team at various places. Try everything. Go with what works. This isn't that different than the doodle bugs they sent after london. |
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USA
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:33:29 PM EDT
[#34]
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KY, USA
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:34:00 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age: Yeah. Maybe with some kind of rapid response team at various places. Try everything. Go with what works. This isn't that different than the doodle bugs they sent after london. Multiple Cessna CAP flying around the clock is still way cheaper than a single ManPad. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:39:16 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By governmentman: Paired with drum or belt fed auto shotguns perhaps? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By governmentman: Originally Posted By PeepEater: A camera with object recognition and tracking would probably be an ideal solution. Paired with drum or belt fed auto shotguns perhaps? Probably something more along the lines of a couple of M3Ps (a high-cyclic rate mod of the AN/M2 design) on a CROWs-type mount. The AVENGER uses the M3P for close-in defense, so the tech is already developed. |
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:39:35 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By weptek911: I’m sure Russia would totally respect the outcome of the election. ( sarcasm) Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By weptek911: Originally Posted By klinc: They should hold a referendum to leave russia. I’m sure Russia would totally respect the outcome of the election. ( sarcasm) Maybe Poland should have a referendum and announce that Kaliningrad has voted to join Poland. I bet the sputtering on that RU TV show would be epic.
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:41:29 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: The 136 is 500lbs going at 150kph. I personally don't think shotgun range is going to cut it. The 1500m range on the C-RAM has historically been much shorter than desired. Remember that a big part of range on air defense is not just the actual kinetic engagement envelope, its also got to factor in reaction and decision times. |
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:41:33 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Meanwhile I’m trying to figure out how to convert an F-22 to fire 30x165. For similar purposes. My thinking keeps shifting to SOF units deploying remote-controlled Starstreaks about 2km out from the departure-end of airfields within practical distance of the border. Exfil and command remotely. Turn all those Kandahar nightmare scenarios into reality. It could be done. |
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USA
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:42:08 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: The 136 is 500lbs going at 150kph. I personally don't think shotgun range is going to cut it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By governmentman: Paired with drum or belt fed auto shotguns perhaps? The 136 is 500lbs going at 150kph. I personally don't think shotgun range is going to cut it. If they get near enough to down them with a shotgun the blast would kill them.  |
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:42:42 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bluegrasshopper: Multiple Cessna CAP flying around the clock is still way cheaper than a single ManPad. |
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:43:36 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By m35ben: Well I was going to ask if counter battery radar can detect. I guess if CRAM can detect them I guess they can. If they are looking at the right angles....which means they are ignoring others. |
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:44:15 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By m35ben: How does that work at night? Poorly, and with lots of fratricide. |
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:46:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Ryan_Scott]
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: Probably something more along the lines of a couple of M3Ps (a high-cyclic rate mod of the AN/M2 design) on a CROWs-type mount. The AVENGER uses the M3P for close-in defense, so the tech is already developed. MADIS and the SHORAD Stryker use a low velocity 30, that’s probably a better tool here, and in the future I expect the gun to get larger. ETA: the MADIS Mk. 2 has a 7.62 minigun which is probably better than an M3P. Actually if I found out that some of those M1A1 hills in the desert were to be repurposed to use a 76mm naval gun in a turret I wouldn’t be surprised. |
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:46:46 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: If they are looking at the right angles....which means they are ignoring others. |
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:49:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Brok3n]
[#46]
Not sure how large of an area C-RAM and Avenger can protect, but wouldn't be a bad choice for Odessa right now. Definitely combat proven:
 US C-RAM Shoots Down Kamikaze Drone In Iraq |
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:50:17 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: My thinking keeps shifting to SOF units deploying remote-controlled Starstreaks about 2km out from the departure-end of airfields within practical distance of the border. Exfil and command remotely. Turn all those Kandahar nightmare scenarios into reality. It could be done. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: Originally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Meanwhile I’m trying to figure out how to convert an F-22 to fire 30x165. For similar purposes. My thinking keeps shifting to SOF units deploying remote-controlled Starstreaks about 2km out from the departure-end of airfields within practical distance of the border. Exfil and command remotely. Turn all those Kandahar nightmare scenarios into reality. It could be done. The risk of using a UK provided system against an HVT in Russia is too much to be desirable. There’s probably an ex Soviet parts bin that could come up with something similar. The Soviets original SHORAD had laser guided missiles I believe. |
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:52:52 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Grendelsbane: Depending on the condition of their guidance systems, they might anyway. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Grendelsbane: Originally Posted By BigGrumpyBear: Can we talk them into hitting New Orleans instead? Depending on the condition of their guidance systems, they might anyway. I would truly miss the French Quarter! Or at least what it used to be, I haven't been able to go since before Katrina, 2003 I think, maybe 2004.  A good time was had by me and Mrs BGB but man it was rough recovering from it.
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Posted: 9/25/2022 6:59:20 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: Plus it has one of the best restaurants in the world. Not worth the trade. Antoine’s Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: Originally Posted By doc540: Marcellos ain't gonna let that happen. Plus it has one of the best restaurants in the world. Not worth the trade. Antoine’s Strip clubs... fine dining... strip clubs... fine dining... country music clubs... jazz clubs... Okay, Houston it is, sorry Texas.
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Posted: 9/25/2022 7:00:56 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CMOS: In general, are they (sorties) effective? CMOS Yeah, the number of destroyed Russian systems is a Testament to the fact tbey are |
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