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Posted: 1/12/2023 8:29:40 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ludder093: looks like the Britts are getting ready to retire 79 Challenger 2's... They need to send them all to Ukraine. We should immediately announce we are sending a battalion set of M1 Abrams tanks so Germany can stop acting like a bunch of candy asses and approve Leopard 2 deliveries. Never mind the fact the M1 Abrams isn't the most suitable tank for Ukraine's needs (fuel guzzler, maintenance intensive, possibly TOO heavy). It is simply going to require the U.S. donating a significant number of tanks to spur Germany into action and getting Ukraine the tank it really needs. What pisses me off is this stupidity is complicating Ukraine's logistics. They have at least 4 local models in service already. Now it appears they'll likely be adding 3 different western designs at some point too. What should happen is the U.S. taking the lead on IFVs with the Bradley and making that the standard for Ukraine, while the European countries provide the Leopard and make that the standard western MBT. But oh no, Germany can't do that because they are bitch ass pussies and need the U.S. to take the lead on everything. What the fuck is everyone so scared about? The Russians aren't going to do anything if the west provides Ukraine tanks. What are they going to do, attack a NATO member state and spark a wider war when they are already losing against Ukraine? If they were going to respond to any weapons deliveries to Ukraine, they would have done so long ago. We have been providing them with heavy artillery, HIMARS, and now even IFVs. All the Russians could do about it was bitch. They aren't going to do anything more if we send tanks because they aren't in any position to do anything more. So send the fucking tanks! Now! |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 8:37:10 PM EDT
[#2]
With all the rumblings of us sending Strykers, I'm really interested to see how they perform in a high intensity 21st century conventional war.
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Posted: 1/12/2023 8:43:23 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: I made that thread last year to give you all a heads up Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: Originally Posted By Ryan_Ruck: We're watching, in real time, the Republican Party be subverted and weaponized against the best interests of the US just like the Democrat Party was. I made that thread last year to give you all a heads up It was inevitable... 15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the U.S. |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 8:43:26 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MelGibsonEnthusiast: With all the rumblings of us sending Strykers, I'm really interested to see how they perform in a high intensity 21st century conventional war. There has to be think tanks all around the world watching and analyzing every second of this war. |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 8:44:49 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/01/11/new-congress-gets-its-first-ukraine-test/ Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: Originally Posted By Ryan_Ruck: We're watching, in real time, the Republican Party be subverted and weaponized against the best interests of the US just like the Democrat Party was. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/01/11/new-congress-gets-its-first-ukraine-test/ Fucking JD Vance. Textbook grifter/budding career politician. Never held a private sector job. I'm so glad Trump endorsed him to give him the edge in the race.  There weren't any stellar options in the Ohio Senate race but there were better options than Vance like Mike Gibbons, whom Rand endorsed. Only voted for the fucker to keep a Dem out of the Senate but I just knew he was going to be a disappointment. |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 8:45:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Ryan_Ruck]
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: That is babbling nonsense straight from the Kremlin. There are actual Ukrainians and their relatives in this thread. You’re saying enforcing a restraining order against an abusive ex is “prying” apart a family, while the battered wife begs someone to do something. Go diversify your sources of information. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: Originally Posted By xd675: The problem is that it is NOT the Ukrainian people running things. They will not have freedom at the end of this. You need to look at the agreements the the WEF and global corporation is forcing on Ukraine too. Quick example is Ukraine's government suddenly mere months away from the capitol being under siege has decided they need to address the issue of gay marriage. How many other backroom deals are being done through NGOs to open Ukraine up to further exploitation by the Soros/Schwab types? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/08/04/ukraine-zelensky-gay-marriage/ This is not a modern version of the American revolution. This is a global hegemony prying a country from the Russian sphere of interest. None of the warring parties are really concerning themselves with what the people of Ukraine want. That is babbling nonsense straight from the Kremlin. There are actual Ukrainians and their relatives in this thread. You’re saying enforcing a restraining order against an abusive ex is “prying” apart a family, while the battered wife begs someone to do something. Go diversify your sources of information. The WEF in 2023 is the equivalent boogeyman of the UN in the 1990s. Change my mind.  (The sad thing is crying wolf about Klaus Schwab and the WEF hiding under every bed takes away from some very legitimate things to be concerned over with it.) |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 8:46:08 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GTLandser: In so far as it is an A3 (the sponsons at the back contain fuel), then yes, but it is not a super comprehensive upgrade. They should also have spall liners (hard panels on rollers that are between the seat backs and the hull sponson spaces). If I had the choice between a 113 and an SUV, then I would definitely take my chances on the 113. Not great, but far better mine and fragment protection. Regular cars get shredded.  Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GTLandser: Originally Posted By Ryan_Ruck: I thought that's what it looked like it was based off. Is it an updated version? In so far as it is an A3 (the sponsons at the back contain fuel), then yes, but it is not a super comprehensive upgrade. They should also have spall liners (hard panels on rollers that are between the seat backs and the hull sponson spaces). If I had the choice between a 113 and an SUV, then I would definitely take my chances on the 113. Not great, but far better mine and fragment protection. Regular cars get shredded.  Armor is not really my forte. I only know the basic looking 113 and the C&C one with the bigger compartment whose official designation escapes me. 
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Posted: 1/12/2023 8:50:07 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ludder093: looks like the Britts are getting ready to retire 79 Challenger 2's... They need to send them all to Ukraine. Isn't that most of what they have? |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 8:51:43 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Ruck: The WEF in 2023 is the equivalent boogeyman of UN in the 1990s. Change my mind. (The sad thing is crying wolf about Klaus Schwab and the WEF hiding under every bed takes away from some very legitimate things to be concerned over with it.) It seems to be a increasingly popular and effective tactic to use bots and useful idiots to take criticism of a controversial subject to absurd extremes - causing the public to shut their ears on the topic and ignore the lesser but legitimate concerns. |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 8:54:21 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: I have heard from media sources that there is a power struggle between Wagner and the Russian army. Like the photograph stunt by Wagner's leader to try and rub it in the Russian Army's faces. The move is to get Russian Armed Forces back at the forefront of bragging rights/success. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Originally Posted By Capta: It's almost incomprehensible how they can continue doing this. Did Surovkin fail to meet unreasonable expectations? Is he being punished for decisions that (arguably) backfired, like the unrestricted campaign against infrastructure? Putin's intent may not be to win the war (which even he may understand is unwinnable at this point) but to stay in power. Perhaps this is intended to keep those who could potentially challenge him weak, off balance, and fighting amongst themselves. Deflect blame from himself by putting them in impossible situations and then replacing them/shuffling them when they "fail." I have heard from media sources that there is a power struggle between Wagner and the Russian army. Like the photograph stunt by Wagner's leader to try and rub it in the Russian Army's faces. The move is to get Russian Armed Forces back at the forefront of bragging rights/success. That in itself brings up a lot of questions. As a power structure in Russia, the Army is vastly more important. Wagner’s power and importance is trivial. The visibility of Wagner, IMO, is a propaganda construct which could not happen without Putin’s express permission. So, why does Putin want to bring Wagner forward and diminish the Army’s prestige and power? Is the Army either actively or passively resisting Putin? Does the Army perceive itself as a rival/enemy to the FSB/oligarch faction? How does the Army see Putin and the FSB’s role regarding the invasion? Are there any officers left who could genuinely mobilize resistance in the Army? If so, who? My opinion is that it’s an attempt to diminish the Army as an independent power base. The Army, in theory, serves the Russian state and is constant across regimes. Putin’s entire regime is built like a mafia family with Capos like Prigozhin owing their personal loyalty to him. What Putin believes will happen to Russia after him is a mystery. |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 8:56:15 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: This was red on red. Wagner smokes mobiks dressed in Ukrainian camouflage. I just spent 30 minutes talking to my friend near Soledar, he sent me that video earlier today. Lots of giveaways that the guys in uniform are not Ukrainian. Too long to explain other than it’s true, typed out explanations 5x. The guys obviously couldn’t hear a word after the grenade. They just shouted we’re with you a bunch. The guy already killed one with grenade, better to leave no one to tell. This didn't age very well. Almost like you will say or believe anything that fits your narrative? You had multiple posts claiming without a doubt this was a Russian killing Russians dressed like UKR soldiers. Do you still trust your friend near Soledar? The amount of propaganda on both sides is very eye opening, and in hindsight the US government was doing the same shit in the Middle East. See the BS Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman stories. Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see. |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 8:58:18 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SemperGumbi: Isn't that most of what they have? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SemperGumbi: Originally Posted By ludder093: looks like the Britts are getting ready to retire 79 Challenger 2's... They need to send them all to Ukraine. Isn't that most of what they have? |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 9:02:50 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd675: The problem is that it is NOT the Ukrainian people running things. They will not have freedom at the end of this. You need to look at the agreements the the WEF and global corporation is forcing on Ukraine too. Quick example is Ukraine's government suddenly mere months away from the capitol being under siege has decided they need to address the issue of gay marriage. How many other backroom deals are being done through NGOs to open Ukraine up to further exploitation by the Soros/Schwab types? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/08/04/ukraine-zelensky-gay-marriage/ This is not a modern version of the American revolution. This is a global hegemony prying a country from the Russian sphere of interest. None of the warring parties are really concerning themselves with what the people of Ukraine want. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd675: Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By _disconnector_: I think a lot of us are missing the point. I **WANT** America to initiate, fund, and even direct revolutions that lead to freedom. Not South American tin-pot dictators mind you - but revolutions that lead to democracies that are willing to fight for their existence and freedoms. Revolutions like Maidan in Ukraine. If we participated there I'd PROUDLY wave that flag. I'd fucking run that on the front page of the Times in bold print with pride. When did we get so amazingly pussified that we can't even admit that we help other people fight for freedom? What has happened to Reagan's "shining city on a hill"? Who are we if we aren't willing to fight to help others achieve the freedoms that we enjoy? When did conservatives become the party of "fuck everyone but ourselves"? When did the world turn upside down and the goddamn commie LIBERALS become the party that is about exporting our greatest commodity? That commodity, my friends, is FREEDOM. Fuck Russia, fuck their entire kleptocratic, totalitarian, one-man-rule system. People that mention Russian corruption and America in the same sentence have absolutely fallen for the propaganda that they have been pumping into our society since 1917. America *at its worst* is still better than Putin's system on its best day. We have assholes here - but at least we can (eventually) vote them out. It may take time and effort but our democracy still works. It's feeble but it's still better than anything that came out of the last 500 years in Russia. They have caused more misery, pain, and heartache for the world than any other nation. Period. Anyone who wants to argue this should talk to a Pole or a Ukrainian. I repeat - I want my tax dollars sent to kick out assholes like Viktor Yanukovych. Because fuck that guy, the system that he represents, and his masters in the Kremlin. Don't fall for the propaganda. We have been and are still are part of a system that represents human freedom and dignity. The Russian are not. /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/1zvslystz4-7.gif The problem is that it is NOT the Ukrainian people running things. They will not have freedom at the end of this. You need to look at the agreements the the WEF and global corporation is forcing on Ukraine too. Quick example is Ukraine's government suddenly mere months away from the capitol being under siege has decided they need to address the issue of gay marriage. How many other backroom deals are being done through NGOs to open Ukraine up to further exploitation by the Soros/Schwab types? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/08/04/ukraine-zelensky-gay-marriage/ This is not a modern version of the American revolution. This is a global hegemony prying a country from the Russian sphere of interest. None of the warring parties are really concerning themselves with what the people of Ukraine want. What a load of ********. GTFO with that “sphere of influence” crap. RUSSIA DOES NOT HAVE ANY RIGHT TO ANY “SPHERE OF INFLUENCE” OVER ANY OTHER COUNTRY, ANYWHERE. RUSSIA IS EXECUTING A GENOCIDAL, IMPERIALIST WAR OF CONQUEST. IF YOU, AS AN AMERICAN, CAN SAY THAT A TOTALITARIAN, FASCIST STATE HAS THE “RIGHT” TO DO THIS, THEN YOU ARE AN ENEMY OF THE CONSTITUTION. |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 9:13:33 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Capta: What a load of ********. GTFO with that “sphere of influence” crap. RUSSIA DOES NOT HAVE ANY RIGHT TO ANY “SPHERE OF INFLUENCE” OVER ANY OTHER COUNTRY, ANYWHERE. RUSSIA IS EXECUTING A GENOCIDAL, IMPERIALIST WAR OF CONQUEST. IF YOU, AS AN AMERICAN, CAN SAY THAT A TOTALITARIAN, FASCIST STATE HAS THE “RIGHT” TO DO THIS, THEN YOU ARE AN ENEMY OF THE CONSTITUTION. Yup. |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 9:14:04 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: If I find out we don't already have a couple dozen or hundred Ukrainians over here training in Abrams simulators right now. I'm going to be disappointed with my Country. Get mad with me, I’m hoping there are trainers in Poland and they are there getting simulator time. Never underestimate our inertia and risk aversion. That’s why it’s such a joke that people think we go around decapitating large European governments etc. We should have a 100 pilots trained on f16s and a10s and Cobras by now but up until 2020 or so all training was non- offensive. Tell me how the army can train an effective fighting force using only medical and defensive tactics? That’s the joke we’ve been training there since 2017. Yah yah, I talked to guys anyone who served in 2014-15 was like emm ok it was ok. We have trained some officer corps at us school though, that’s definitely helped break the soviet command structure. But we haven’t helped near as much a we’ve been told. Shit while they were learning tourniquets, Iraqi and Afghan commandos learned to fly helos and jets, operate tows, and got encrypted comms etc. shoot we have better training to Somali army until the last two years or so. They got green berets and other instructors. |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 9:17:11 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JTF: First thing that comes to mind when seeing this frame: "Canned sunshine" https://i.postimg.cc/bNz5qx39/vlcsnap-2023-01-12-15h13m39s913-Small.png Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JTF: Originally Posted By belted_guns: Originally Posted By Haub: Oh man, someone on Ukraine's twitter created a parody of the old Like a Rock Chevy commercial LOL
 That was great.  First thing that comes to mind when seeing this frame: "Canned sunshine" https://i.postimg.cc/bNz5qx39/vlcsnap-2023-01-12-15h13m39s913-Small.png I think “smoking accident.” |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 9:20:57 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mcantu: Unless they get the MGS version, the Strykers aren't going to add any capabilities over their current 8-wheeled BTRs Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mcantu: Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: I'm going to be laughing hard if the Stryker proves to be an effective combat system over there. After all the shit Sylvan talked about it being a terrible idea for a combat vehicle it was. Unless they get the MGS version, the Strykers aren't going to add any capabilities over their current 8-wheeled BTRs I was speaking in terms of the Stryker being able to take a punch. |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 9:23:29 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By raven: Col McGregor on now No need to watch a traitor embarrass himself. |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 9:28:55 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: Ritter described it as Americans using their first amendment rights in the most righteous way. Technically he's right I guess but fuck if you'll ever see me giving speeches at a socialist circle jerk. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: Originally Posted By Zam18th: Yikes. Interesting group psychology at play the last few years. Ritter described it as Americans using their first amendment rights in the most righteous way. Technically he's right I guess but fuck if you'll ever see me giving speeches at a socialist circle jerk. Damn right. And fuck if I'd invite a pedo to speak at an event. Sounds like a large scale oxygen heist. |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 9:39:15 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: They don't need capability they need capacity. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Originally Posted By mcantu: Unless they get the MGS version, the Strykers aren't going to add any capabilities over their current 8-wheeled BTRs They don't need capability they need capacity. Just wanted to quote this because it's so succinct and cuts to the heart of it. We can argue capability increases all we want but when soldiers have to crowd source pickup trucks and are assaulting with hummers, any vehicles we send will be a big help. |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 9:46:11 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dominion21: Thanks Charlie! Regarding the T-72 and T-62: members have been in these things; correct me if I’m wrong about these model’s originally adopted in 1972 and 1962, respectively: - they are smaller than an Abrams are far more cramped and more quickly fatigue the crewmen - ok - not a huge deal, but then: - they are loud as hell inside (often armor is this way) but: the T tanks are so loud they impede communication between crewmen- and that can be a problem. Compounding that, - the main gun optics. My understanding was the T62s were made with a sort of blank grid on the optic, but initially there is no central point of impact on it. Rather, the factory fires rounds from the brand new tank, then marks the impacts on the tank’s sight. There is your aiming point . Yeah, maybe that “works” but it’s a very crude way of doing things (if true). EDIT: T-72 video; the interior tour begins around the 7:30 mark. Yeah - it’s cramped as hell inside that thing.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krp2y88nNCoIt will take dedication and practice to use it to its theoretical potential. The Ukrainians are fighting for the survival of their nation; how dedicated is the average Russian tanker to the “special military operation?” Charlie contrasted how much more excellent our own armor is, as far as being able to see and hit the enemy at ridiculously long ranges. Just how long is classified (as it should be). But it is clear: Western tanks have a massive advantage over Russian T-72s. But, but - the T-90! The Armata-14 ! The 90 is extremely rare (at least in Ukraine) and the Armata is vapor-ware at this point. They are not coming to rescue the Russian army of 2023. Even if the Russians could put more T-90s into action, my bet is our armor would still out-range and out-class them in nearly every aspect. Charlie raises a good question concerning US and Western training + maintenance versus what will happen to western armor in Ukrainian hands. Guess we will just have to wait and see how well the Ukrainians are able to exploit western donated armor to their advantage. My hope is to see a Bradley proudly parked in the center of liberate Mariupol soon, resting up for the final liberation of Crimea. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dominion21: Originally Posted By CharlieR: Originally Posted By sq40: Question, This discussion of “better tanks”, with various models discussed, what advantages do the various western tanks offer? How big of a difference is there? I seem to recall a large tank battle in Iraq that was and absolute Turkey shoot. Are the western tanks that much better? Yes. Thermals are very well made and you can see stuff a long way away. The ballistic computer is very very good. As a dumb 19 year old 30 or so years ago, put the sight on an E (human) silhouette, lase it with the rangefinder, fire the COAX, burst of 6-9 rounds, got a hit. The gun will blow sabot rounds through anything. Armor is best in world The combination of armor and thermal sight and gun and computer means it can move on you in the dark and get hits from crazy distances. Biggest problem is it requires a lot of maintenance. So does the Bradley, but we send the Bradley. I have commented on that thoroughly. Biggest M1 tank problems are: 1. Its heavy. AT 70 tons, you need to plan what bridges or ford sites to get it somewhere. It has wide tracks and good cross country mobility but bridges are a thing. 2. Moving 70 tons at 40mph requires a big ass turbine engine and that guzzles gas. Western tanks need lots of gas. My opinion, its not really that hard to employ. It is hard to fix and maintain. Teaching a Ukrainian to be a mechanic on teh thing is harder then to be a gunner. Some posters have said we're on top of that. Knowing how the US Army thinks....we probably are. But unless we have people incountry driving broken tanks around to Poland or West Ukraine will be a pain in teh ass. Given the huge maintenance requirements, Id push Western tanks, maybe M1s, and the Infantry get what they get. Thanks Charlie! Regarding the T-72 and T-62: members have been in these things; correct me if I’m wrong about these model’s originally adopted in 1972 and 1962, respectively: - they are smaller than an Abrams are far more cramped and more quickly fatigue the crewmen - ok - not a huge deal, but then: - they are loud as hell inside (often armor is this way) but: the T tanks are so loud they impede communication between crewmen- and that can be a problem. Compounding that, - the main gun optics. My understanding was the T62s were made with a sort of blank grid on the optic, but initially there is no central point of impact on it. Rather, the factory fires rounds from the brand new tank, then marks the impacts on the tank’s sight. There is your aiming point . Yeah, maybe that “works” but it’s a very crude way of doing things (if true). EDIT: T-72 video; the interior tour begins around the 7:30 mark. Yeah - it’s cramped as hell inside that thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krp2y88nNCoIt will take dedication and practice to use it to its theoretical potential. The Ukrainians are fighting for the survival of their nation; how dedicated is the average Russian tanker to the “special military operation?” Charlie contrasted how much more excellent our own armor is, as far as being able to see and hit the enemy at ridiculously long ranges. Just how long is classified (as it should be). But it is clear: Western tanks have a massive advantage over Russian T-72s. But, but - the T-90! The Armata-14 ! The 90 is extremely rare (at least in Ukraine) and the Armata is vapor-ware at this point. They are not coming to rescue the Russian army of 2023. Even if the Russians could put more T-90s into action, my bet is our armor would still out-range and out-class them in nearly every aspect. Charlie raises a good question concerning US and Western training + maintenance versus what will happen to western armor in Ukrainian hands. Guess we will just have to wait and see how well the Ukrainians are able to exploit western donated armor to their advantage. My hope is to see a Bradley proudly parked in the center of liberate Mariupol soon, resting up for the final liberation of Crimea. I keep having to say this the T80bvms and t84oplots and t64 bvm-1 are by far better armored and better tanks than T72s. Some have turbines all have ceramic and spall liners, some have hunter killer with Thales type thermal sights and fire controls. The T72 was the Corolla of the soviets and the t64 the corvette. They never exported them for a reason and they cost 2x as much per unit for a reason. A t80bvm or t84 oplot is on par with an m1 if it tank combat 1 on1 blood sport style fight with crack crews which isn’t realistic. I’d note that the oplot can basically hit a m1 with a very slightly smaller stugna type missile at 7.5km. Would the m1 survive? IDK probably? maybe but 1200mm after kontackt 5 is a lot of penetration. The real weakpoint is the 125 sabot rounds. They just aren’t used much anyway and the Russians don’t build many new ones because they lie. The Ukrainians and Russians mostly use late 80s sabot rounds. A lot of tank kills are HE disable shots with follow ups of HE, atgms, drones, or artillery until either it burns or the crew escapes or dies. Anyway m1a2 would be awesome but they’d get killed too if employed in 1 man hit squad Like the Russians do. The Ukrainians just need good tanks with spares and good thermal hunter killer capability, comms, trackers, and lots of HE, AmP, whatever and a few crow bars. I want to see them there but I think they are heavy. France should send 100 leclercs and Poland can send 100 Twardys, we can send 300 brads and move on to air assets and Ukraine can also revamp their T80s and modern T64s with western help. There tanks are little dense things run by small people by necessity. I remember seeing a t64 next to m1a2 and being like damn she’s thick. It had a turbine which I found interesting. Didn’t realize that Ukraine did the turbine thing first. |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 9:50:06 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Ruck: The WEF in 2023 is the equivalent boogeyman of the UN in the 1990s. Change my mind. (The sad thing is crying wolf about Klaus Schwab and the WEF hiding under every bed takes away from some very legitimate things to be concerned over with it.) Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Ruck: Originally Posted By Prime: Originally Posted By xd675: The problem is that it is NOT the Ukrainian people running things. They will not have freedom at the end of this. You need to look at the agreements the the WEF and global corporation is forcing on Ukraine too. Quick example is Ukraine's government suddenly mere months away from the capitol being under siege has decided they need to address the issue of gay marriage. How many other backroom deals are being done through NGOs to open Ukraine up to further exploitation by the Soros/Schwab types? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/08/04/ukraine-zelensky-gay-marriage/ This is not a modern version of the American revolution. This is a global hegemony prying a country from the Russian sphere of interest. None of the warring parties are really concerning themselves with what the people of Ukraine want. That is babbling nonsense straight from the Kremlin. There are actual Ukrainians and their relatives in this thread. You're saying enforcing a restraining order against an abusive ex is "prying" apart a family, while the battered wife begs someone to do something. Go diversify your sources of information. The WEF in 2023 is the equivalent boogeyman of the UN in the 1990s. Change my mind. (The sad thing is crying wolf about Klaus Schwab and the WEF hiding under every bed takes away from some very legitimate things to be concerned over with it.) I was concerned about them years ago but constantly connecting them to everything under the Sun in a bunch of grand conspiracies has completely derailed the legit concerns. I was just reading yesterday about how the FAA issue was the beginning of a WEF cyber attack to plunge the world into darkness.  |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 9:55:38 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: I keep having to say this the T80bvms and t84oplots and t64 bvm-1 are by far better armored and better tanks than T72s. Some have turbines all have ceramic and spall liners, some have hunter killer with Thales type thermal sights and fire controls. The T72 was the Corolla of the soviets and the t64 the corvette. They never exported them for a reason and they cost 2x as much per unit for a reason. A t80bvm or t84 oplot is on par with an m1 if it tank combat 1 on1 blood sport style fight with crack crews which isn't realistic. I'd note that the oplot can basically hit a m1 with a very slightly smaller stugna type missile at 7.5km. Would the m1 survive? IDK probably? maybe but 1200mm after kontackt 5 is a lot of penetration. The real weakpoint is the 125 sabot rounds. They just aren't used much anyway and the Russians don't build many new ones because they lie. The Ukrainians and Russians mostly use late 80s sabot rounds. A lot of tank kills are HE disable shots with follow ups of HE, atgms, drones, or artillery until either it burns or the crew escapes or dies. Anyway m1a2 would be awesome but they'd get killed too if employed in 1 man hit squad Like the Russians do. The Ukrainians just need good tanks with spares and good thermal hunter killer capability, comms, trackers, and lots of HE, AmP, whatever and a few crow bars. I want to see them there but I think they are heavy. France should send 100 leclercs and Poland can send 100 Twardys, we can send 300 brads and move on to air assets and Ukraine can also revamp their T80s and modern T64s with western help. There tanks are little dense things run by small people by necessity. I remember seeing a t64 next to m1a2 and being like damn she's thick. It had a turbine which I found interesting. Didn't realize that Ukraine did the turbine thing first. Seems like countries are worried about escalation. And also worried the Russians will get a propaganda victory whenever they knock out a Western MBT. |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 10:06:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Finslayer83]
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MelGibsonEnthusiast: With all the rumblings of us sending Strykers, I'm really interested to see how they perform in a high intensity 21st century conventional war. This. The war has been a proving ground for lots of systems. I’m sure there are massive amounts of contractors etc, getting feedback from UKR forces. |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 1/12/2023 10:07:34 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd675: The problem is that it is NOT the Ukrainian people running things. They will not have freedom at the end of this. You need to look at the agreements the the WEF and global corporation is forcing on Ukraine too. Quick example is Ukraine's government suddenly mere months away from the capitol being under siege has decided they need to address the issue of gay marriage. How many other backroom deals are being done through NGOs to open Ukraine up to further exploitation by the Soros/Schwab types? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/08/04/ukraine-zelensky-gay-marriage/ This is not a modern version of the American revolution. This is a global hegemony prying a country from the Russian sphere of interest. None of the warring parties are really concerning themselves with what the people of Ukraine want. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd675: Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By _disconnector_: I think a lot of us are missing the point. I **WANT** America to initiate, fund, and even direct revolutions that lead to freedom. Not South American tin-pot dictators mind you - but revolutions that lead to democracies that are willing to fight for their existence and freedoms. Revolutions like Maidan in Ukraine. If we participated there I'd PROUDLY wave that flag. I'd fucking run that on the front page of the Times in bold print with pride. When did we get so amazingly pussified that we can't even admit that we help other people fight for freedom? What has happened to Reagan's "shining city on a hill"? Who are we if we aren't willing to fight to help others achieve the freedoms that we enjoy? When did conservatives become the party of "fuck everyone but ourselves"? When did the world turn upside down and the goddamn commie LIBERALS become the party that is about exporting our greatest commodity? That commodity, my friends, is FREEDOM. Fuck Russia, fuck their entire kleptocratic, totalitarian, one-man-rule system. People that mention Russian corruption and America in the same sentence have absolutely fallen for the propaganda that they have been pumping into our society since 1917. America *at its worst* is still better than Putin's system on its best day. We have assholes here - but at least we can (eventually) vote them out. It may take time and effort but our democracy still works. It's feeble but it's still better than anything that came out of the last 500 years in Russia. They have caused more misery, pain, and heartache for the world than any other nation. Period. Anyone who wants to argue this should talk to a Pole or a Ukrainian. I repeat - I want my tax dollars sent to kick out assholes like Viktor Yanukovych. Because fuck that guy, the system that he represents, and his masters in the Kremlin. Don't fall for the propaganda. We have been and are still are part of a system that represents human freedom and dignity. The Russian are not. /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/1zvslystz4-7.gif The problem is that it is NOT the Ukrainian people running things. They will not have freedom at the end of this. You need to look at the agreements the the WEF and global corporation is forcing on Ukraine too. Quick example is Ukraine's government suddenly mere months away from the capitol being under siege has decided they need to address the issue of gay marriage. How many other backroom deals are being done through NGOs to open Ukraine up to further exploitation by the Soros/Schwab types? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/08/04/ukraine-zelensky-gay-marriage/ This is not a modern version of the American revolution. This is a global hegemony prying a country from the Russian sphere of interest. None of the warring parties are really concerning themselves with what the people of Ukraine want. "Sphere of interest," you say? How about "tradition of limitless theft, rape, and genocide" instead? Supporting Ukraine's present fight against Russia is the right thing to do, no matter what country you are or how stupid your salient political beliefs happen to be. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/12/2023 10:11:40 PM EDT
[#26]
https://archive.ph/vbOEn Under a plan proposed by the U.S. weapons manufacturer Boeing and first reported by Reuters in November, the United States could provide the so-called Ground-Launched Small Diameter Bomb (GLSDB) to Ukraine. The transfer, if completed, would give Ukraine weapons with twice the range of the precision munitions the United States has already supplied for HIMARS batteries and would enable Ukraine to hit targets that have been out of reach for the duration of the war. ... Instead, officials inside the Office of the Secretary of Defense and the U.S. Air Force are concerned that the long lead time to deploy the SDB could render the weapons redundant given the fast pace of fighting in Ukraine, which has not let up in the Donbas region in towns such as Bakhmut and Soledar despite the onset of a punishing winter. The ground-launched variant of the SDB, which is jointly produced by Boeing and the Swedish manufacturer Saab, uses a rocket motor to help launch it to altitude before gliding to its target, giving it the ability to fly around terrain or circle back to a target. GBU-39 SDBs would need to be paired with M26 rocket motors—the two main components of the GLSDB—before being used in combat, a process that would take months. But proponents of the move are worried that the dithering could slow down that process even more, pushing the timeline back for when Ukraine fields the weapon as industry waits for the Pentagon’s signoff. ... Estimates vary on how long the integration could take: John Hardie and Bradley Bowman, both analysts at the hawkish Foundation for Defense of Democracies (FDD) in Washington, estimated that Ukraine could get two launchers and 24 weapons within nine months after the Pentagon approves the plan, and 12 launchers and 750 bombs by the end of 2024 ... The 250-pound precision bomb—about 50 pounds heavier than the Guided Multiple Launch Rocket System (GMLRS) munitions that the United States has already provided—could prove effective in rooting out reinforced Russian positions, such as trenches, and can be launched from hidden positions to avoid being spotted. But it is still smaller than the ATACMS munition, which is about two times heavier. |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 10:13:15 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Freiheit8472: I might have to go to marriage counseling if my wife finds out I’m emotionally cheating on her with Ukraine. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Freiheit8472: Originally Posted By Haub: Oh man, someone on Ukraine's twitter created a parody of the old Like a Rock Chevy commercial LOL
I might have to go to marriage counseling if my wife finds out I’m emotionally cheating on her with Ukraine. I’ll one up that, whole family’s cheating with Ukraine. Spent 2 hours today because someone said my friend was captured at Soledar. Took us 2 hours of shifting through bs Russian crap to find pic. Not him. |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 10:18:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Freiheit8472]
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fervid_dryfire: "Sphere of interest," you say? How about "tradition of limitless theft, rape, and genocide" instead? Supporting Ukraine's present fight against Russia is the right thing to do, no matter what country you are or how stupid your salient political beliefs happen to be. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fervid_dryfire: Originally Posted By xd675: Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By _disconnector_: I think a lot of us are missing the point. I **WANT** America to initiate, fund, and even direct revolutions that lead to freedom. Not South American tin-pot dictators mind you - but revolutions that lead to democracies that are willing to fight for their existence and freedoms. Revolutions like Maidan in Ukraine. If we participated there I'd PROUDLY wave that flag. I'd fucking run that on the front page of the Times in bold print with pride. When did we get so amazingly pussified that we can't even admit that we help other people fight for freedom? What has happened to Reagan's "shining city on a hill"? Who are we if we aren't willing to fight to help others achieve the freedoms that we enjoy? When did conservatives become the party of "fuck everyone but ourselves"? When did the world turn upside down and the goddamn commie LIBERALS become the party that is about exporting our greatest commodity? That commodity, my friends, is FREEDOM. Fuck Russia, fuck their entire kleptocratic, totalitarian, one-man-rule system. People that mention Russian corruption and America in the same sentence have absolutely fallen for the propaganda that they have been pumping into our society since 1917. America *at its worst* is still better than Putin's system on its best day. We have assholes here - but at least we can (eventually) vote them out. It may take time and effort but our democracy still works. It's feeble but it's still better than anything that came out of the last 500 years in Russia. They have caused more misery, pain, and heartache for the world than any other nation. Period. Anyone who wants to argue this should talk to a Pole or a Ukrainian. I repeat - I want my tax dollars sent to kick out assholes like Viktor Yanukovych. Because fuck that guy, the system that he represents, and his masters in the Kremlin. Don't fall for the propaganda. We have been and are still are part of a system that represents human freedom and dignity. The Russian are not. /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/1zvslystz4-7.gif The problem is that it is NOT the Ukrainian people running things. They will not have freedom at the end of this. You need to look at the agreements the the WEF and global corporation is forcing on Ukraine too. Quick example is Ukraine's government suddenly mere months away from the capitol being under siege has decided they need to address the issue of gay marriage. How many other backroom deals are being done through NGOs to open Ukraine up to further exploitation by the Soros/Schwab types? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/08/04/ukraine-zelensky-gay-marriage/ This is not a modern version of the American revolution. This is a global hegemony prying a country from the Russian sphere of interest. None of the warring parties are really concerning themselves with what the people of Ukraine want. "Sphere of interest," you say? How about "tradition of limitless theft, rape, and genocide" instead? Supporting Ukraine's present fight against Russia is the right thing to do, no matter what country you are or how stupid your salient political beliefs happen to be.  It’s dirt simple like Capta said. EVEN IF any of their whining complaints were true, two wrongs don’t make a right. Especially if one wrong is genocide and the other is, what, oooo someone supported people fighting against genocidal maniacs? |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 10:19:45 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By OHBuckeyes: This didn't age very well. Almost like you will say or believe anything that fits your narrative? You had multiple posts claiming without a doubt this was a Russian killing Russians dressed like UKR soldiers. Do you still trust your friend near Soledar? The amount of propaganda on both sides is very eye opening, and in hindsight the US government was doing the same shit in the Middle East. See the BS Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman stories. Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By OHBuckeyes: Originally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: This was red on red. Wagner smokes mobiks dressed in Ukrainian camouflage. I just spent 30 minutes talking to my friend near Soledar, he sent me that video earlier today. Lots of giveaways that the guys in uniform are not Ukrainian. Too long to explain other than it’s true, typed out explanations 5x. The guys obviously couldn’t hear a word after the grenade. They just shouted we’re with you a bunch. The guy already killed one with grenade, better to leave no one to tell. This didn't age very well. Almost like you will say or believe anything that fits your narrative? You had multiple posts claiming without a doubt this was a Russian killing Russians dressed like UKR soldiers. Do you still trust your friend near Soledar? The amount of propaganda on both sides is very eye opening, and in hindsight the US government was doing the same shit in the Middle East. See the BS Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman stories. Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see. Wtf you talking about dude? It’s Russians on Russians in that video. I trust my friend who is a recon captain there more than other bs. Plus they are speaking Russian and other bullshit. The fact that they were using Ukrainian uniforms I heard about 2 days before I got the video. |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 10:20:15 PM EDT
[#30]
ISW assessment for January 12th.
https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-january-12-2023 |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 10:23:46 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: I believe you. My question is why did the killer post the video? Or was it posted by someone else? Maybe found him dead and took his GoPro? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Originally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: This was red on red. Wagner smokes mobiks dressed in Ukrainian camouflage. I just spent 30 minutes talking to my friend near Soledar, he sent me that video earlier today. Lots of giveaways that the guys in uniform are not Ukrainian. Too long to explain other than it’s true, typed out explanations 5x. The guys obviously couldn’t hear a word after the grenade. They just shouted we’re with you a bunch. The guy already killed one with grenade, better to leave no one to tell. I believe you. My question is why did the killer post the video? Or was it posted by someone else? Maybe found him dead and took his GoPro? I asked, probably the guy uploaded it for cash payouts, Wagner a mafia gang. |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 10:29:24 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: Wtf you talking about dude? It’s Russians on Russians in that video. I trust my friend who is a recon captain there more than other bs. Plus they are speaking Russian and other bullshit. The fact that they were using Ukrainian uniforms I heard about 2 days before I got the video. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: Originally Posted By OHBuckeyes: Originally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: This was red on red. Wagner smokes mobiks dressed in Ukrainian camouflage. I just spent 30 minutes talking to my friend near Soledar, he sent me that video earlier today. Lots of giveaways that the guys in uniform are not Ukrainian. Too long to explain other than it’s true, typed out explanations 5x. The guys obviously couldn’t hear a word after the grenade. They just shouted we’re with you a bunch. The guy already killed one with grenade, better to leave no one to tell. This didn't age very well. Almost like you will say or believe anything that fits your narrative? You had multiple posts claiming without a doubt this was a Russian killing Russians dressed like UKR soldiers. Do you still trust your friend near Soledar? The amount of propaganda on both sides is very eye opening, and in hindsight the US government was doing the same shit in the Middle East. See the BS Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman stories. Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see. Wtf you talking about dude? It’s Russians on Russians in that video. I trust my friend who is a recon captain there more than other bs. Plus they are speaking Russian and other bullshit. The fact that they were using Ukrainian uniforms I heard about 2 days before I got the video.  From a telegram link earlier. Orc on orc liberation. |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 10:31:08 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ludder093: Send them a few of these as well. All the time and effort in making those static positions with barbed wire and concrete pyramids for nothing  https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/animated-gif-source-1557337062.gif https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPH-CCu0d-wTheir breaching line charges seem like they would make a pretty devastating close in weapon itself. How long do they take to reload? |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 10:35:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: gentlemanfarmer]
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Freiheit8472: From a telegram link earlier. Orc on orc liberation. Thank you for that I just spent 15 minutes redacting an encrypted chat to shove up ops blind side but I guess double pen is fine. |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 10:46:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ITCHY-FINGER]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By OHBuckeyes: This didn't age very well. Almost like you will say or believe anything that fits your narrative? You had multiple posts claiming without a doubt this was a Russian killing Russians dressed like UKR soldiers. Do you still trust your friend near Soledar? The amount of propaganda on both sides is very eye opening, and in hindsight the US government was doing the same shit in the Middle East. See the BS Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman stories. Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see. He heard wrong. There were many of us arguing one side or the other in that incident. There was something weird about the shooting though. My first thought was the shooter was wearing UA uniform which resulted in the obvious confusion by the two victims. We will never know. Not sure why you are so upset at someone being wrong. We have all been wrong about something in this 3500+ pages. edit: Maybe he was right. |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 10:51:38 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zam18th:
https://archive.ph/vbOEn That is exactly what they need!!! |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 10:57:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1Andy2]
[#37]
edited
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Posted: 1/12/2023 11:01:10 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: He heard wrong. There were many of us arguing one side or the other in that incident. There was something weird about the shooting though. My first thought was the shooter was wearing UA uniform which resulted in the obvious confusion by the two victims. We will never know. Not sure why you are so upset at someone being wrong. We have all been wrong about something in this 3500+ pages. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Originally Posted By OHBuckeyes: This didn't age very well. Almost like you will say or believe anything that fits your narrative? You had multiple posts claiming without a doubt this was a Russian killing Russians dressed like UKR soldiers. Do you still trust your friend near Soledar? The amount of propaganda on both sides is very eye opening, and in hindsight the US government was doing the same shit in the Middle East. See the BS Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman stories. Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see. He heard wrong. There were many of us arguing one side or the other in that incident. There was something weird about the shooting though. My first thought was the shooter was wearing UA uniform which resulted in the obvious confusion by the two victims. We will never know. Not sure why you are so upset at someone being wrong. We have all been wrong about something in this 3500+ pages. Dude I’m telling you there is no confusion not for me, not for my buddy, not for an intel officer in that AO. It’s russky on Russky. The attackers plainly are Wagner contract guys. Has an ak12 with a thermal. I’ve seen one aK12 in UA service at a checkpoint when I was there, another as a trophy. No one Carrie’s those in line units on an assault. Good way to get killed by your own. The ID card. You can tell by the accents as well. The vog launcher. Saw stacks of those because there were no grenades. Guys just pose with them in photos then pull them off. Would you lug an m203 with no ammo? So prior warning that this was happening Video confirmation from a friend I trust who knows his way around the battlefield The guns and equipment The language used The brutality of the shooters The shooters kit is pure Wagner Ukraine doesn’t have pea brains in hasty fighting positions lumped together generally, not in Soledar or Bhakmut 46 vdv airmobile now and some other groups are there not mobiks. Confirmed by other friend who knows On and on They just put it up to stroke the Russian stronk folks. |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 11:03:48 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: Ukrainian TG identifies one of the two killed in the Kremmina video yesterday. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/203719/2A67EF67-8F40-4862-9FD9-A929CBD1E28B-2669243.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/203719/59F6C398-302E-4959-BFB0-0C93CB9B61F4-2669242.jpg This is why you were called out. I have no idea what it says obviously |
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USA
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Posted: 1/12/2023 11:06:11 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Freiheit8472: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/539199/5C16E781-A295-4802-9643-5C73B88610AA-2670009.png From a telegram link earlier. Orc on orc liberation. I suppose it is technically possible it was Russian on Russian friendly fire but this is kinda terrible "proof". Like awful Russian propaganda level. No offense. |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 11:07:37 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1Andy2: The last image has a name visible, man. @gentlemanfarmer Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1Andy2: Originally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: Thank you for that I just spent 15 minutes redacting an encrypted chat to shove up ops blind side but I guess double pen is fine. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/419667/25F41F36-DA6F-458B-AB9B-678A3F822FEE_jpe-2670011.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/419667/41A9B1B5-3E7E-4189-8509-01FFC585C2FC_jpe-2670012.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/419667/5AF3C792-A9C6-43B9-9825-1728D37462AE_jpe-2670013.JPG The last image has a name visible, man. @gentlemanfarmer What name I’m me I don’t see anything |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 11:10:36 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mokerr: This is why you were called out. I have no idea what it says obviously Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mokerr: Originally Posted By Prime: Ukrainian TG identifies one of the two killed in the Kremmina video yesterday. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/203719/2A67EF67-8F40-4862-9FD9-A929CBD1E28B-2669243.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/203719/59F6C398-302E-4959-BFB0-0C93CB9B61F4-2669242.jpg This is why you were called out. I have no idea what it says obviously Says they died in kremina |
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USA
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Posted: 1/12/2023 11:11:03 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dominion21: Thanks Charlie! Regarding the T-72 and T-62: members have been in these things; correct me if I’m wrong about these model’s originally adopted in 1972 and 1962, respectively: - they are smaller than an Abrams are far more cramped and more quickly fatigue the crewmen - ok - not a huge deal, but then: - they are loud as hell inside (often armor is this way) but: the T tanks are so loud they impede communication between crewmen- and that can be a problem. Compounding that, - the main gun optics. My understanding was the T62s were made with a sort of blank grid on the optic, but initially there is no central point of impact on it. Rather, the factory fires rounds from the brand new tank, then marks the impacts on the tank’s sight. There is your aiming point . Yeah, maybe that “works” but it’s a very crude way of doing things (if true). EDIT: T-72 video; the interior tour begins around the 7:30 mark. Yeah - it’s cramped as hell inside that thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krp2y88nNCoIt will take dedication and practice to use it to its theoretical potential. The Ukrainians are fighting for the survival of their nation; how dedicated is the average Russian tanker to the “special military operation?” Charlie contrasted how much more excellent our own armor is, as far as being able to see and hit the enemy at ridiculously long ranges. Just how long is classified (as it should be). But it is clear: Western tanks have a massive advantage over Russian T-72s. But, but - the T-90! The Armata-14 ! The 90 is extremely rare (at least in Ukraine) and the Armata is vapor-ware at this point. They are not coming to rescue the Russian army of 2023. Even if the Russians could put more T-90s into action, my bet is our armor would still out-range and out-class them in nearly every aspect. Charlie raises a good question concerning US and Western training + maintenance versus what will happen to western armor in Ukrainian hands. Guess we will just have to wait and see how well the Ukrainians are able to exploit western donated armor to their advantage. My hope is to see a Bradley proudly parked in the center of liberate Mariupol soon, resting up for the final liberation of Crimea. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dominion21: Originally Posted By CharlieR: Originally Posted By sq40: Question, This discussion of “better tanks”, with various models discussed, what advantages do the various western tanks offer? How big of a difference is there? I seem to recall a large tank battle in Iraq that was and absolute Turkey shoot. Are the western tanks that much better? Yes. Thermals are very well made and you can see stuff a long way away. The ballistic computer is very very good. As a dumb 19 year old 30 or so years ago, put the sight on an E (human) silhouette, lase it with the rangefinder, fire the COAX, burst of 6-9 rounds, got a hit. The gun will blow sabot rounds through anything. Armor is best in world The combination of armor and thermal sight and gun and computer means it can move on you in the dark and get hits from crazy distances. Biggest problem is it requires a lot of maintenance. So does the Bradley, but we send the Bradley. I have commented on that thoroughly. Biggest M1 tank problems are: 1. Its heavy. AT 70 tons, you need to plan what bridges or ford sites to get it somewhere. It has wide tracks and good cross country mobility but bridges are a thing. 2. Moving 70 tons at 40mph requires a big ass turbine engine and that guzzles gas. Western tanks need lots of gas. My opinion, its not really that hard to employ. It is hard to fix and maintain. Teaching a Ukrainian to be a mechanic on teh thing is harder then to be a gunner. Some posters have said we're on top of that. Knowing how the US Army thinks....we probably are. But unless we have people incountry driving broken tanks around to Poland or West Ukraine will be a pain in teh ass. Given the huge maintenance requirements, Id push Western tanks, maybe M1s, and the Infantry get what they get. Thanks Charlie! Regarding the T-72 and T-62: members have been in these things; correct me if I’m wrong about these model’s originally adopted in 1972 and 1962, respectively: - they are smaller than an Abrams are far more cramped and more quickly fatigue the crewmen - ok - not a huge deal, but then: - they are loud as hell inside (often armor is this way) but: the T tanks are so loud they impede communication between crewmen- and that can be a problem. Compounding that, - the main gun optics. My understanding was the T62s were made with a sort of blank grid on the optic, but initially there is no central point of impact on it. Rather, the factory fires rounds from the brand new tank, then marks the impacts on the tank’s sight. There is your aiming point . Yeah, maybe that “works” but it’s a very crude way of doing things (if true). EDIT: T-72 video; the interior tour begins around the 7:30 mark. Yeah - it’s cramped as hell inside that thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krp2y88nNCoIt will take dedication and practice to use it to its theoretical potential. The Ukrainians are fighting for the survival of their nation; how dedicated is the average Russian tanker to the “special military operation?” Charlie contrasted how much more excellent our own armor is, as far as being able to see and hit the enemy at ridiculously long ranges. Just how long is classified (as it should be). But it is clear: Western tanks have a massive advantage over Russian T-72s. But, but - the T-90! The Armata-14 ! The 90 is extremely rare (at least in Ukraine) and the Armata is vapor-ware at this point. They are not coming to rescue the Russian army of 2023. Even if the Russians could put more T-90s into action, my bet is our armor would still out-range and out-class them in nearly every aspect. Charlie raises a good question concerning US and Western training + maintenance versus what will happen to western armor in Ukrainian hands. Guess we will just have to wait and see how well the Ukrainians are able to exploit western donated armor to their advantage. My hope is to see a Bradley proudly parked in the center of liberate Mariupol soon, resting up for the final liberation of Crimea. T-90s themselves vary a lot. The original T-90 is essentially an upgraded T-72. The T-90A redesigned the turret. The T-90MS is further improved with a newer turret design and stores some ammo in the rear of the turret. Things like sights/sensors for the commander are much more ergonomic in the newest versions. Fairly big difference going up against a T-90 compared to a T-90MS. Of course they don't have too much of the modern stuff. |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 11:11:42 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: What name I’m me I don’t see anything The second name on the last picture can be read through the yellow paint over. |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 11:13:43 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By amanbearpig: I suppose it is technically possible it was Russian on Russian friendly fire but this is kinda terrible "proof". Like awful Russian propaganda level. No offense. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By amanbearpig: Originally Posted By Freiheit8472: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/539199/5C16E781-A295-4802-9643-5C73B88610AA-2670009.png From a telegram link earlier. Orc on orc liberation. I suppose it is technically possible it was Russian on Russian friendly fire but this is kinda terrible "proof". Like awful Russian propaganda level. No offense. You suppose? Ok you do you man. I can’t teach you Russian and you don’t believe me. |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 11:19:50 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: You suppose? Ok you do you man. I can’t teach you Russian and you don’t believe me. I wasn't replying to you? 
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Posted: 1/12/2023 11:22:04 PM EDT
[#47]
Thank you for that I just spent 15 minutes redacting an encrypted chat to shove up ops blind side but I guess double pen is fine.
The last image has a name visible, I misspelled his name anyway and it’s not in Cyrillic not a big deal I redacted more for me than him. Main thing is no faces |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 11:22:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Freiheit8472]
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: You suppose? Ok you do you man. I can’t teach you Russian and you don’t believe me. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: Originally Posted By amanbearpig: Originally Posted By Freiheit8472: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/539199/5C16E781-A295-4802-9643-5C73B88610AA-2670009.png From a telegram link earlier. Orc on orc liberation. I suppose it is technically possible it was Russian on Russian friendly fire but this is kinda terrible "proof". Like awful Russian propaganda level. No offense. You suppose? Ok you do you man. I can’t teach you Russian and you don’t believe me. Alrighty, it’s GD and beating horses is what we do in liu (btw I can’t spell it well enough for spellcheck to even help me) of more developments. Isn’t it about time for more ukr mod or isw reports? Eta: I understand man bear, I wish we had 100% confirmation too. And agreed this isn’t worth us in-fighting over |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 11:36:00 PM EDT
[#49]
Ha, Starsky made a video in Russian for Ivan…
 The "RUSSIAN HELL": this is how it looks like in real life |
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Posted: 1/12/2023 11:37:00 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Seems like countries are worried about escalation. And also worried the Russians will get a propaganda victory whenever they knock out a Western MBT. Time to get the propaganda on our side, imagine how great it will look when western iron lays waste to the Russians. |
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