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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:21:41 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Papposilenus: I considered that both sides said my possibility is not an option for them. But, Russia has lied to their people about plenty of things. I see no reason not to add another lie to the list. Reframe "the real Ukraine" as the separatist oblasts and tada, you've "freed" Ukraine Don't get me wrong- I'm making that prediction in the capacity of "there are possible options other than Ukrainian annihilation in a conventional war or Nuclear WW3" not as something I expect It is not as simple as exchanging some land for peace. the land you would cede to Russia has a good share of Ukraine's natural resources. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:21:49 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cryo_tech: Russian civillians should be safe while Ukrainians suffer? Total war is total war. Total war is being waged on Ukraine. If you are rooting for terrorism on innocent civilians, women and children, you are NOT on my side and I would take a careful look at what side you claim to support and go the other way. That's a very, very bad look. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:21:56 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sq40: Trump is falling into the trap that will let the Democrats pound him as a Russian puppet again. “Collusion” charges will get backed up by statements like that, all over again. Maybe he can just go the fuck away finally then. What we need moving forward is another COMMANDER in chief. One akin to Eisenhower. Does one exist today? A strong military officer with a conservative mindset who can run as an R? Probably not |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:22:40 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cryo_tech: Trump should shut the fuck up. It's not his call. Its Zelenskyy's. Easy to whine for peace from your Florida home while orcs occupy Kherson and mariupol. Personally I think it's probably in the best interest of Ukraine to work out a peace deal. But it's not my call. We aren't the ones paying the ultimate price defending our homeland. The issue of what, if anything to give up to secure peace is up to the people of Ukraine alone. My other issue with trumps statement is what was left unsaid. He talked about the conflict like it was some unavoidable tragedy rather than laying the blame at Putins feet for being the asshole. |
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ZWE
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:25:27 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 6SJ7GT: It is not as simple as exchanging some land for peace. the land you would cede to Russia has a good share of Ukraine's natural resources. Also cede land, russia builds more tanks and shit, invades again in 8-10 years. Insert cake meme |
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USA
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:25:57 AM EDT
[#6]
This place keeps changing hands every few days it seems.
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:27:55 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By amanbearpig: If you are rooting for terrorism on innocent civilians, women and children, you are NOT on my side and I would take a careful look at what side you claim to support and go the other way. That's a very, very bad look. Orcs are orcs. Sorry you think there are innocent ones. Perhaps you've missed the photos of Ukrainian kids with limbs torn off and dead. Explain why Russians should sit safely in their cities with no fear, eating warm delicious food and smirking? Perhaps if their families were subjected to the same conditions and danger, then their support of this war would change. If not, oh well.  upload images |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:28:16 AM EDT
[#8]
 ???? "????" ????????? ????????? ??????? ????????? ? ????????? |
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USA
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:29:31 AM EDT
[#9]
Very good write-up and analysis of the game at play sourced from Arestovych.
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MN, USA
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:30:10 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE: Yet people here shit on Trump for urging them to reach an agreement before everyone ends up dead. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE: Originally Posted By Prime:
Yet people here shit on Trump for urging them to reach an agreement before everyone ends up dead. Gd a few pages ago - nuclear war is bad and Putin won't just stop at ukraine Trump - imma try and negotiate with a mad man and if doesn't do what I tell him to do I will just bomb him. That leads to nuclear war. Trump's an idiot. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:31:33 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By thehun06: My grandpa was a political prisoner in Siberia … I share the same feelings … Russians don’t really care. They never have. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By thehun06: Originally Posted By Jozsi: I can't find the heart to forgive them for what they did to Hungary in 1956. My grandfather and great grandfather died together frozen and naked in a prison.. Beaten..starved..tortured and left naked . They died clinging to each other as a father and son...and the fucken Russians and commie Hungarians thought it was funny.... I hate communism with all my heart.. I hate russia with every fiber of my being. I want them to apologize and beg forgiveness to my dad for putting a bullet in his back and shrapnels also. I want them grounded to powder into a nothing burger. 3rd world shithole.. Of nothingness..I want them shitting in the ground and wiping their ass with their hands...that's how savage I want them return to. My grandpa was a political prisoner in Siberia … I share the same feelings … Russians don’t really care. They never have. I remember studying the Hungarian revolution in high school in the 1970s. Joszi's posts have been solid and educational. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:31:53 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE: Yet people here shit on Trump for urging them to reach an agreement before everyone ends up dead. You're missing the part where all property will be seized and the citizens left alive will become forced labor. As soon as the Russian military recovers, they'll move on the rest of Ukraine and then into eastern Europe. We've seen it before and surrender to Russia is not going to turn out well. I agree that the loss of life is horrible and I pray every day for it to end. But I also know the battle against evil cannot be won by capitulation. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:31:57 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cryo_tech: Maybe he can just go the fuck away finally then. What we need moving forward is another COMMANDER in chief. One akin to Eisenhower. Does one exist today? A strong military officer with a conservative mindset who can run as an R? Probably not Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cryo_tech: Originally Posted By sq40: Trump is falling into the trap that will let the Democrats pound him as a Russian puppet again. “Collusion” charges will get backed up by statements like that, all over again. Maybe he can just go the fuck away finally then. What we need moving forward is another COMMANDER in chief. One akin to Eisenhower. Does one exist today? A strong military officer with a conservative mindset who can run as an R? Probably not Eisenhower? I still have the I Like Ike pin my mother wore to school back then. Family has been R for generations. As Supreme Allied Commander he was very capable. As CIC (President)? Not as much - he could have prevented our Vietnam War but he capitulated to the French. Was he better than the current CIC, yes of course. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:32:50 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE: You consider that winning? Yes they have had some wins and took back some of their ground. They have also had some major losses, lost most of their ports, cities are still be leveled, and only now is Russia actually starting to make a big push forward. Russian has what 10x the equipment/forces that Ukraine does and they have lost 10%. That means Russia still has 9x the equipment and forces compared to what Ukraine started with. As long as the rest of the world keeps supplying Ukraine with enough equipment I don't think they should negotiate but if there any delay in that equipment or if it stops then they could lose a lot of ground fast. The supply issues is what doomed all the troops moving on Kyiv. The Russian forces left have a strong and secure supply line behind them. That is a completely different type of war than what we just saw. 2 man tank crews and 2 weeks of training for conscripts isn't the way to win wars. Probably the only thing that will make Ukraine lose will be the supply issues you mention. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:36:27 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cryo_tech: Orcs are orcs. Sorry you think there are innocent ones. Perhaps you've missed the photos of Ukrainian kids with limbs torn off and dead. Explain why Russians should sit safely in their cities with no fear, eating warm delicious food and smirking? Perhaps if their families were subjected to the same conditions and danger, then their support of this war would change. If not, oh well. https://i.ibb.co/HPYWxrg/IMG-20220419-102329-204.jpg upload images Advocating for terrorism against innocent women and children is sick. In war bad and terrible things happen to many innocent people. Some wars are foolish, some worthwhile, yet all have innocent people suffering. Setting out with your specific goal being terror attacks on women and children on the other hand is disgusting. If your desire is to emulate ISIS and bin Laden, you are 100% in the wrong. That's not a 'difference of opinion', that's straight fact. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:39:52 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GiggleSmith: Meanwhile...... German Leopards for Ukraine: Scrap or Wunderwaffe?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYZfvi0Ab78Cliff notes? I'm going with junk.  |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:40:00 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cryo_tech: Orcs are orcs. Sorry you think there are innocent ones. Perhaps you've missed the photos of Ukrainian kids with limbs torn off and dead. Explain why Russians should sit safely in their cities with no fear, eating warm delicious food and smirking? Perhaps if their families were subjected to the same conditions and danger, then their support of this war would change. If not, oh well. https://i.ibb.co/HPYWxrg/IMG-20220419-102329-204.jpg upload images Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cryo_tech: Originally Posted By amanbearpig: If you are rooting for terrorism on innocent civilians, women and children, you are NOT on my side and I would take a careful look at what side you claim to support and go the other way. That's a very, very bad look. Orcs are orcs. Sorry you think there are innocent ones. Perhaps you've missed the photos of Ukrainian kids with limbs torn off and dead. Explain why Russians should sit safely in their cities with no fear, eating warm delicious food and smirking? Perhaps if their families were subjected to the same conditions and danger, then their support of this war would change. If not, oh well. https://i.ibb.co/HPYWxrg/IMG-20220419-102329-204.jpg upload images Even their mannequins suck at explosives handling. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:41:34 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BustinCaps: Even their mannequins suck at explosives handling. Well I woukd imagine plenty of their hero figures might n look like this now, so it's maybe partially accurate? |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:41:41 AM EDT
[#19]
Sounds like they dropped something large on Mariupol about 40 minutes ago. Ukraine says it hit a hospital, so it probably happened. What it was/did remains to be seen.
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:42:25 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cryo_tech: Find him and execute him like the others. Disproportionate violence should be met with the same. Perhaps terror attacks in Russia can be a response. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cryo_tech: Originally Posted By Prime:
Find him and execute him like the others. Disproportionate violence should be met with the same. Perhaps terror attacks in Russia can be a response. Well that's just dumb as fuck. The world is on Ukraine's side. Start killing Russian civilians and that changes. It also turns Russians who might oppose the war in favor of it. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:43:17 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Orion_Shall_Rise: two frames of a close up shell explosion. Reddit removed the pictures |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:45:31 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Naporter: Well that's just dumb as fuck. The world is on Ukraine's side. Start killing Russian civilians and that changes. It also turns Russians who might oppose the war in favor of it. I mean it's half said in jest and half not, but I'm not seeing any real opposition to this, and plenty of for it. It's not like you hit a subway. A power station? A government center? Water supply? Media and comms centers? Food distribution? Oh hell yes. And if people die, they die. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:46:38 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE: Yet people here shit on Trump for urging them to reach an agreement before everyone ends up dead. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE: Originally Posted By Prime:
Yet people here shit on Trump for urging them to reach an agreement before everyone ends up dead. Yet people here think Russia, after killing and raping whole towns and stating their aim is to “eradicate Ukrainian identity”, needs to be offered an olive branch and “not offended so as not to escalate” by the people being killed and eradicated. Galaxy brains I tell you… |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:46:48 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cryo_tech: Orcs are orcs. Sorry you think there are innocent ones. Perhaps you've missed the photos of Ukrainian kids with limbs torn off and dead. Explain why Russians should sit safely in their cities with no fear, eating warm delicious food and smirking? Perhaps if their families were subjected to the same conditions and danger, then their support of this war would change. If not, oh well. https://i.ibb.co/HPYWxrg/IMG-20220419-102329-204.jpg upload images I do get where you are coming from. But our country has been involved in wars in foreign countries that I didn't support where innocent civilians got hurt and killed. I didn't want our military to be involved, my government did it without my consent. I'm just saying that if you are going to hold the russian people to that level you should hold the american people to the same level. If you believe a double standard is fair, fine. Just say so and say why. Personally, I think a double standard is fair when comparing our culture to some other cultures. However, our own corrupt govt and our people are not totally different from russian corrupt govt and russian people. Did our state influenced media help rig our presidential election? Yep. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:47:46 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By realwar: Trucks from Russia and Belarus fleeing from EU before sanctions -- they are no longer allowed in EU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYejAhLZSNESeize them. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:47:54 AM EDT
[#26]
Question: do Russian sanctions mean we can keep all the uranium Hillary and Obama sold to Rosatom?
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USA
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:48:22 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JQ66: Reddit removed the pictures Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JQ66: Originally Posted By Orion_Shall_Rise: two frames of a close up shell explosion. Reddit removed the pictures https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Military-Picture-Thread-post-1945/5-2388949/?r=-1&page=30&anc=98290615#i98290615 |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:49:48 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stgdz: Gd a few pages ago - nuclear war is bad and Putin won't just stop at ukraine Trump - imma try and negotiate with a mad man and if doesn't do what I tell him to do I will just bomb him. That leads to nuclear war. Trump's an idiot. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stgdz: Originally Posted By SWIRE: Originally Posted By Prime:
Yet people here shit on Trump for urging them to reach an agreement before everyone ends up dead. Gd a few pages ago - nuclear war is bad and Putin won't just stop at ukraine Trump - imma try and negotiate with a mad man and if doesn't do what I tell him to do I will just bomb him. That leads to nuclear war. Trump's an idiot. Trump didn't say anything about bombing anyone or ordering anyone to do anything. He encouraged both sides to talk in order to stop the bloodshed. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:50:52 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Piratepast40: You're missing the part where all property will be seized and the citizens left alive will become forced labor. As soon as the Russian military recovers, they'll move on the rest of Ukraine and then into eastern Europe. We've seen it before and surrender to Russia is not going to turn out well. I agree that the loss of life is horrible and I pray every day for it to end. But I also know the battle against evil cannot be won by capitulation. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Piratepast40: Originally Posted By SWIRE: Yet people here shit on Trump for urging them to reach an agreement before everyone ends up dead. You're missing the part where all property will be seized and the citizens left alive will become forced labor. As soon as the Russian military recovers, they'll move on the rest of Ukraine and then into eastern Europe. We've seen it before and surrender to Russia is not going to turn out well. I agree that the loss of life is horrible and I pray every day for it to end. But I also know the battle against evil cannot be won by capitulation. I must have missed the part where Trump told Ukraine to surrender.  |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:51:07 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age: I do get where you are coming from. But our country has been involved in wars in foreign countries that I didn't support where innocent civilians got hurt and killed. I didn't want our military to be involved, my government did it without my consent. I'm just saying that if you are going to hold the russian people to that level you should hold the american people to the same level. If you believe a double standard is fair, fine. Just say so and say why. Personally, I think a double standard is fair when comparing our culture to some other cultures. However, our own corrupt govt and our people are not totally different from russian corrupt govt and russian people. Did our state influenced media help rig our presidential election? Yep. The double standard is fair because we aren't trying to conquer and enslave people. We (in our some times fucked up way) are doing it for good. It's not like we aren't fighting norks, North Vietnamese, taliban, isis and Iraqi invaders or wars. Orcs only invade to conquer, slaughter, terrorize, and subjugate. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:51:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: cryo_tech]
[#31]
Doubled
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:51:43 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE: You consider that winning? Yes they have had some wins and took back some of their ground. They have also had some major losses, lost most of their ports, cities are still be leveled, and only now is Russia actually starting to make a big push forward. Russian has what 10x the equipment/forces that Ukraine does and they have lost 10%. That means Russia still has 9x the equipment and forces compared to what Ukraine started with. As long as the rest of the world keeps supplying Ukraine with enough equipment I don't think they should negotiate but if there any delay in that equipment or if it stops then they could lose a lot of ground fast. The supply issues is what doomed all the troops moving on Kyiv. The Russian forces left have a strong and secure supply line behind them. That is a completely different type of war than what we just saw. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE: Originally Posted By vahog: The Ukrainians have no reason to negotiate because they are winning You consider that winning? Yes they have had some wins and took back some of their ground. They have also had some major losses, lost most of their ports, cities are still be leveled, and only now is Russia actually starting to make a big push forward. Russian has what 10x the equipment/forces that Ukraine does and they have lost 10%. That means Russia still has 9x the equipment and forces compared to what Ukraine started with. As long as the rest of the world keeps supplying Ukraine with enough equipment I don't think they should negotiate but if there any delay in that equipment or if it stops then they could lose a lot of ground fast. The supply issues is what doomed all the troops moving on Kyiv. The Russian forces left have a strong and secure supply line behind them. That is a completely different type of war than what we just saw. Russia has a smaller force than Ukraine has, manpower wise, committed to this war. They have lost perhaps 30% of their equipment so far, and Ukraine has a net gain of equipment from this conflict. Russia can only commit so much, they have a whole country to defend, and other oceans to patrol too. The only things Russia has to its advantage are Grads and Migs. The tanks and helicopters are a wash due to portable missiles. Though the map shows a lot of red areas, the Russians only have tenuous holds in areas of that map. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:51:49 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wulfmann: What I stated and you ignored and went off on a tirade in a different direction on a different subject never once addressing my point.. Let me repeat, the strategic bombing campaign to destroy German industry and terrorize civilians was a failure. All other things are not part of my statement and do not address my point at all. Up until the final days of WWII Germany was producing weapons, Jets, Me 109s, FW190s, Tigers/panthers etc and other panzers new U-Boats type XXI and XXIII Panzers were literally coming off the assembly line and driving down the street to engage us. Fighters were left unflown for lack of pilots, Small arms workers were actually running out the back door of factories while American troops were coming through the front doors. Germany never lacked weapons to wage war until the very last day so it was a wasted effort Besides the saturation bombing at Normandy (That was decisive) and the attacks on the fuel industry the only thing the Americans and British did was commit genocide of women and children. If that was the goal then we succeeded. If genocide was not the goal and stopping Germany from making weapons to wage war then it was a failure BTW I never met my uncle John. He was a crewman on a B17 in the Eighth Army Airforce and was killed on a mission to Germany When we do it they call it genocide. When they do it, and the battle of Britain comes to mind, and the Blitzkrieg, it's incidental to close combat. Russian rape and.murder of civilians is just because of a special military operation. And we don't need satellites for the truth about it, mostly because they had reporters on the ground in those areas who saw it firsthand. Some of them didn't live. The government corruption and the Maidan to end it are probably best left for another thread. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:53:59 AM EDT
[#34]
Also.
Every penny of sized RU assets should be confiscated to pay for the weapons se t to Ukraine |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:54:22 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rca2222: Did this get posted yet? https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/176088/FQqPzxWWUAYrGXc_jpg-2354354.JPG Wow, that's completely tone deaf. I didn't expect an ideal response from President Trump, but this is just sad. 
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:54:40 AM EDT
[#36]
Putin loses another top commander: Captain of 370ft Black Sea landing ship is killed in battle
Captain Alexander Chirva died from wounds sustained fighting in Ukraine. He was commander of the large, 370 ft landing ship Caesar Kunikov. Caesar Kunikov was damaged during a Ukrainian missile attack on March 24.   The Caesar Kunikov landing ship, which was thought to be damaged in during a Ukrainian missile attack on landing ships in the port of Berdyansk on March 24  370 ft landing ship Caesar Kunikov, capable of carrying ten main battle tanks plus 340 troops part of the Black Sea Fleet The Kunikov's sister landing ship the Orsk was hit and eventually sank while in port, having had its location advertised on Russian state propaganda. It is thought that Chirva and his ship were involved in the rescue operation, with fire from the Orsk reportedly spreading to other vessels as well as an ammunition depot and a fuel terminal in the port. 'Today we said goodbye to Alexander Grigorievich Chirva,' said Razvozhayev without giving more detail of the circumstances of his death. 'His courage, professionalism and experience saved the lives of the crew members.'   More |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:54:46 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age: I do get where you are coming from. But our country has been involved in wars in foreign countries that I didn't support where innocent civilians got hurt and killed. I didn't want our military to be involved, my government did it without my consent. I'm just saying that if you are going to hold the russian people to that level you should hold the american people to the same level. If you believe a double standard is fair, fine. Just say so and say why. Personally, I think a double standard is fair when comparing our culture to some other cultures. However, our own corrupt govt and our people are not totally different from russian corrupt govt and russian people. Did our state influenced media help rig our presidential election? Yep. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age: Originally Posted By cryo_tech: Orcs are orcs. Sorry you think there are innocent ones. Perhaps you've missed the photos of Ukrainian kids with limbs torn off and dead. Explain why Russians should sit safely in their cities with no fear, eating warm delicious food and smirking? Perhaps if their families were subjected to the same conditions and danger, then their support of this war would change. If not, oh well. https://i.ibb.co/HPYWxrg/IMG-20220419-102329-204.jpg upload images I do get where you are coming from. But our country has been involved in wars in foreign countries that I didn't support where innocent civilians got hurt and killed. I didn't want our military to be involved, my government did it without my consent. I'm just saying that if you are going to hold the russian people to that level you should hold the american people to the same level. If you believe a double standard is fair, fine. Just say so and say why. Personally, I think a double standard is fair when comparing our culture to some other cultures. However, our own corrupt govt and our people are not totally different from russian corrupt govt and russian people. Did our state influenced media help rig our presidential election? Yep. It’s a western luxury to think “we would never do that”. All of warfare, including terrorism and the general complacency of people just trying to earn a living and provide for their families, is people doing what they think they should. And as we’ve seen, those beliefs die with the believer. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:54:55 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Obo2: Also cede land, russia builds more tanks and shit, invades again in 8-10 years. Insert cake meme Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Obo2: Originally Posted By 6SJ7GT: It is not as simple as exchanging some land for peace. the land you would cede to Russia has a good share of Ukraine's natural resources. Also cede land, russia builds more tanks and shit, invades again in 8-10 years. Insert cake meme Thisnis what many fools parading the “give them a little…” line of negotiating are WILLFULLY overlooking. Russia already said it wants to eliminate all Ukrainians and Ukraine. It’s inevitable that you will have to fight them forever. The only way this makes sense is if Ukraine plans to use the time to rearm like crazy and attack the taken areas again. There is no more staring on defense or digging in for Ukraine. This is 100% a fight to the death for these two countries. Either currently or eventually. It’s not going to stop. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:55:01 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CPT_CAVEMAN: 2 man tank crews and 2 weeks of training for conscripts isn't the way to win wars. Probably the only thing that will make Ukraine lose will be the supply issues you mention. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CPT_CAVEMAN: Originally Posted By SWIRE: You consider that winning? Yes they have had some wins and took back some of their ground. They have also had some major losses, lost most of their ports, cities are still be leveled, and only now is Russia actually starting to make a big push forward. Russian has what 10x the equipment/forces that Ukraine does and they have lost 10%. That means Russia still has 9x the equipment and forces compared to what Ukraine started with. As long as the rest of the world keeps supplying Ukraine with enough equipment I don't think they should negotiate but if there any delay in that equipment or if it stops then they could lose a lot of ground fast. The supply issues is what doomed all the troops moving on Kyiv. The Russian forces left have a strong and secure supply line behind them. That is a completely different type of war than what we just saw. 2 man tank crews and 2 weeks of training for conscripts isn't the way to win wars. Probably the only thing that will make Ukraine lose will be the supply issues you mention. We are already seeing Ukraine supply issues in the contested areas. The US Defense officials are saying Russia is regrouping, they just need to 2 man crews to hold the line until they get resupplied. Holding the line isn't winning, which is the comment that I was responding to. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:55:45 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Papposilenus: It's not so simple. You're opinion seems based on trying to predict the future. Here is an option Russia secures the two separatist oblasts in the coming days. Russia finishes clearing the AZOV battalion. Russia and Ukraine then return to peace talks. Ukraine cedes control over the separatists oblasts and Crimea (which by the way were major hurdles to joining NATO) and Russia leaves the rest of Ukraine. -Russia "beat the Nazis" and obtained land -Ukraine continues to exist and solved its civil war and can join NATO and EU. While I'm certain this isn't the outcome Ukraine or Russia wanted, it's a possibility, no nukes were needed and Western support halted the creation of another Putin Puppet state. Am I right, who know. We might all die in nuclear fire next week, but your certainty is incorrect. There are plenty of possible outcomes. The mineral rights for crimea and the azov sea are auctioned off to Exxon Mobil, shell, Aramco, etc. Russia and Ukraine split it the money. That’s the only one I’d consider because unless one surrenders that area will never be secure to get minerals out got he ground. Both need to agree for anything to be done. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:59:04 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Billy_Ringo: New poster, thanks for the discussion and the info. Much appreciated. Personal observation: At this point, there is no win for Russia continuing this war. Even if they "win" the battle, there will be little or nothing left of Ukraine. What is left will come at a tremendous cost to govern. The military costs have been staggering, their current economic losses are staggering--their future economic losses are devastating. They are isolated from the rest of the world and it gets worse every day the war continues. If they use chemical or nuclear assets all of that gets magnified 10X. Putin and his cronies have no out. Their personal wealth has been tapped and Putin is a dead man walking. No head of state will want to be seen as doing anything but condemning him. He's toast. His travel will be confined to Russia or a few other countries beholden to Russia. That's it--and that's if they don't kill or jail him. Putin has no personal exit strategy. His massive wealth has and will continue to be taken away. Sooner or later the Russians will learn what is going on, and they won't like it. They may be limited as to what they can do, but there will be little or no support. The Russian generals have to understand there is no victory for them, their soldiers are being slowly decimated. They are being crippled militarily. The Russian command and control has been completely usurped by the death and firing of military leaders, thus further degrading their forces ability to wage war. Again, there are no beneficial outcomes for Russia to continue this war, none. The only thing, in my opinion, that forces Russian continuation is Putin's ego. That's it, that's the list. Kill Putin's ego. End the War. Peace. Excellent first post. Russia is fucked. They can’t even produce their signature product, the shitty T-72 or T-90 tank because they relied on parts from Germany and Ukraine of all places. The only good news for them is I’m sure the Germans can’t wait to start selling them tech again as soon as the blood dries. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/19/2022 10:59:58 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 4xGM300m: Cliff notes? I'm going with junk. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 4xGM300m: Originally Posted By GiggleSmith: Meanwhile...... German Leopards for Ukraine: Scrap or Wunderwaffe? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYZfvi0Ab78Cliff notes? I'm going with junk. Meh, the Leopard I had it's issues; but with the attritional aspect to kind of fight that's fixin' to emerge, it would be very useful to the UA. Leopards were designed as a Cold War defensive tank and are capable enough, since most vehicles in a Russian BTG are not latest-series upgraded MBT's, and what an L7 105mm will do to anything that is not the front glacis area or forward turret of an upgraded T72/T80 series or T90 is downright medieval. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:02:31 AM EDT
[#43]
The Female Fighters of Ukraine's Forgotten War
 The Female Fighters of Ukraine's Forgotten War A forgotten conflict has been tearing apart eastern Ukraine since 2014. Now women represent nearly a quarter of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, but their involvement in the conflict is not always accepted. Ukrainian sniper Yulia left her children behind to join the war on the country's icy fringes. "When our soldiers started dying, we couldn't just stand by. If you don't want to bury your own, then you need to bury others", she says. However, not all of her male comrades agree with her presence on the frontline. "For us, it's strange to see women involved in war. I understand feminism, equality and all that, but war isn't women's business", says her male commander Vasily, speaking from a bunker near enemy lines. Her involvement has also taken a toll on her relationship with her daughter. "She understands, but at the same time it hurts her because for the last four - almost five years I haven't been with them", says Yulia. Olga used to work at Donetsk International Airport, which was destroyed in the conflict. She now lives a stone's throw from the demarcation line. "We're scared to stay here, but we have no choice", she says, "we're hostages here." Whether taking up arms or raising a family, these women soldiers all share a common objective: to get back to normal life. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:04:17 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SilverBearX: A "conservative gathering".  Going to "help themselves" to your supplies. I will take things that didn't happen for 1,000 Alex. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SilverBearX: Originally Posted By sq40: Originally Posted By grambosc: Originally Posted By RolandofGilead: Originally Posted By Zam18th: Originally Posted By RolandofGilead: Originally Posted By sq40: Originally Posted By RogueShot12er: Originally Posted By Tuco22: Can this thread go back to being news and stuff. That'd be great. So like page 10? This is just a Ukraine rah rah thread. Nothing wrong with that just don't expect unbiased information if you are following it. It is what it is. 90% of Arfcom is either indifferent or pro Russia. This is really the only thread that is somewhat pro Ukraine. GD is more pro Russia than my Russian wife. It's pathetic. Damn. Is it really that bad? I've been mostly avoiding it out of fear I'll lose a lot of respect for members or this community. I checked it today after having been only in this thread and immediately regretted it. Yes it's that bad. It's bad, but my local real life acquaintances are even worse. I left a conservative gathering last month over the pro Russia parroting, convinced that at some future point we may come to violence over irreconcilable differences. They basically accused anyone not embracing Team Russia of being hostile, and brainwashed, and implied that during an emergency they'd just come help themselves to our preps. Maybe they were joking, but I now have to consider the possibility that I might have to use lethal force to defend myself and family from them at that point. I've cut off all communications cold, and hopefully they'll just move on now. However, I'm glad to have learned their true colors now instead of after a big SHTF event, when I may have hoped for their help. Damn. A "conservative gathering". Going to "help themselves" to your supplies. I will take things that didn't happen for 1,000 Alex. Not to start an argument or thread slide, but @grambosc is a pretty honest and reliable person. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:04:25 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FALFOX: I have been avoiding posting here because I know it will likely turn into a pissing match, and no one wants that. However, I need to say my piece. A great many of you have lost your fucking minds. Listen, I'm a cold war kid - I love seeing Russian tanks go boom just like everybody in here. I want Russia to lose this war. But they're not going to. Why? Because they are all in. They are about to roll over the fucking country, moving city to city, pounding them with MLRS and turning them into rubble one after the other, and the only question now is whether the world is willing to risk nuclear war to stop them. We are damned if we do, and the Ukes are damned if we don't. Hell they may pop tac nukes just out of spite, and if it seems like they are losing you can be effin SURE they will crack open that canned sunshine. UKRAINE. CANNOT. WIN. THIS. So. What then. World War 3? Sorry, but my answer is YES. Unless some kind of miracle happens and Putin is deposed, the options remain either Ukraine is subject to a crushing defeat or Poland/NATO intervenes and we are in WW3. OK, there is another possible scenario, we pour weapons into Ukraine and draw Russia into a terrible quagmire, and they somehow brainlessly spend the next 3 or 4 years wasting the entirety of their armed forces beating their heads against a javelin anvil, Ukraine is turned into a wasteland that would make wartorn Syria look inviting, and nearly every man, woman, and child still in the country dies in a twenty-first century reprise of the Holodomor. So WW3 it is. I'm predicting it. I give it two more months, and it will go nuclear within weeks of Nato stepping in. Maybe days. Prepare yourselves.  Pepper your angus! The Russians just started world war 3. Anyone who thinks that just sitting here and watching this guy do genocide because nukes is going to ask what happened when they start falling. Did you ever stop and think that maybe our presence on the ground there might serve to deter this guy from using them? Or.maybe he should just be abel to do whatever he wants or else? A first world military is going whole hog on one of it's little neighbors in violation of a treaty they signed in Budapest. If Ukraine had kept any of that stuff they use to have we would not be having this discussion right now. Oh, and sorry about the destruction of your nation in front of the whole world, but, you're not a member of the special club, so, sucks to be you. Gee, if only it actually stood for something? Sorry man, not okay with any of this, especially the part where we are just supposed to sit back and watch. Did that in 2020, and didn't win shit. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:04:42 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Yobro512: The mineral rights for crimea and the azov sea are auctioned off to Exxon Mobil, shell, Aramco, etc. Russia and Ukraine split it the money. That’s the only one I’d consider because unless one surrenders that area will never be secure to get minerals out got he ground. Both need to agree for anything to be done. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Yobro512: Originally Posted By Papposilenus: It's not so simple. You're opinion seems based on trying to predict the future. Here is an option Russia secures the two separatist oblasts in the coming days. Russia finishes clearing the AZOV battalion. Russia and Ukraine then return to peace talks. Ukraine cedes control over the separatists oblasts and Crimea (which by the way were major hurdles to joining NATO) and Russia leaves the rest of Ukraine. -Russia "beat the Nazis" and obtained land -Ukraine continues to exist and solved its civil war and can join NATO and EU. While I'm certain this isn't the outcome Ukraine or Russia wanted, it's a possibility, no nukes were needed and Western support halted the creation of another Putin Puppet state. Am I right, who know. We might all die in nuclear fire next week, but your certainty is incorrect. There are plenty of possible outcomes. The mineral rights for crimea and the azov sea are auctioned off to Exxon Mobil, shell, Aramco, etc. Russia and Ukraine split it the money. That’s the only one I’d consider because unless one surrenders that area will never be secure to get minerals out got he ground. Both need to agree for anything to be done. As opposed to Russian state owned companies doing it? They'll never take that deal. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:06:14 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sq40: Russia has a smaller force than Ukraine has, manpower wise, committed to this war. They have lost perhaps 30% of their equipment so far, and Ukraine has a net gain of equipment from this conflict. Russia can only commit so much, they have a whole country to defend, and other oceans to patrol too. The only things Russia has to its advantage are Grads and Migs. The tanks and helicopters are a wash due to portable missiles. Though the map shows a lot of red areas, the Russians only have tenuous holds in areas of that map. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sq40: Originally Posted By SWIRE: Originally Posted By vahog: The Ukrainians have no reason to negotiate because they are winning You consider that winning? Yes they have had some wins and took back some of their ground. They have also had some major losses, lost most of their ports, cities are still be leveled, and only now is Russia actually starting to make a big push forward. Russian has what 10x the equipment/forces that Ukraine does and they have lost 10%. That means Russia still has 9x the equipment and forces compared to what Ukraine started with. As long as the rest of the world keeps supplying Ukraine with enough equipment I don't think they should negotiate but if there any delay in that equipment or if it stops then they could lose a lot of ground fast. The supply issues is what doomed all the troops moving on Kyiv. The Russian forces left have a strong and secure supply line behind them. That is a completely different type of war than what we just saw. Russia has a smaller force than Ukraine has, manpower wise, committed to this war. They have lost perhaps 30% of their equipment so far, and Ukraine has a net gain of equipment from this conflict. Russia can only commit so much, they have a whole country to defend, and other oceans to patrol too. The only things Russia has to its advantage are Grads and Migs. The tanks and helicopters are a wash due to portable missiles. Though the map shows a lot of red areas, the Russians only have tenuous holds in areas of that map. They might have lost 30% of the equipment they allocated to this war. That is different than 30% of the equipment for the entire military. Who else is attacking Russia that they need to defend themselves from? China is friendly to them. Is Mongolia going to invade them? The majority of their boarder can't even be approached. They do barely have a hold on the contest areas, which is why they are regrouping and going to make that a proper war effort with secure supply lines. Their primary goal has always been to take full control of the Sea of Azov which they have pretty much done. That is not Ukraine winning. |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:07:09 AM EDT
[#48]
 'Neither disciplined nor comfortable': CNN reporter tours abandoned Russian military camp |
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:08:11 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SWIRE: Yet people here shit on Trump for urging them to reach an agreement before everyone ends up dead. Is this thread such upside down world that you're defending Trump 
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Posted: 4/19/2022 11:10:24 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sq40: I am probably one of the more people with a more aggressive stance against Russia, after hearing everything Putin had to say, and seeing the horrors against civilians his forces have committed. Putin is already calling this WWIII. He is already calling this a war against the US and Europe. So in my mind, anyone advocating holding back, is just behind the curve on just how import it is that Ukraine wins, and how important our own nuclear Brinkmanship is. I am at this point also. I know that even if Russia destroys Ukraine and we do nothing about it, they will not stop there. They have already threatened Finland and Sweden for their moves toward NATO membership, and NATO countries including Poland and Romania. Letting them genocide Ukraine because we're afraid of their nukes would only embolden them to go farther. And that's before even counting the additional lives that will be lost in those countries if Russia isn't stopped here. |
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