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USA
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Posted: Today 7:43:16 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Low_Country: I’d argue that universal suffrage does little more than enable and empower politicians whose intent is purely self-advancement and self-promotion, almost always to the detriment of the masses. A political class beholden to a more selective electorate would demand more responsibility and prudence from our representatives, to the benefit of everybody. The Devil is in the details, who is the arbiter of sufferage, you?... Most people would vote you off the island, see how that works? |
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Posted: Today 7:44:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: marcus5819]
[#2]
@macros73
I owe you an apology. I will hence for read before committing  Oppps |
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Posted: Today 7:45:11 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Thrasymachus: Because performing a task is not the same as ensuring the government has the consent of the governed. One of Madison's central points in the Federalist Papers is that the process of filtration is to avoid the worst tendencies of the masses. The founders did not take Plato as their reference point, but instead used Aristotle's and Machiavelli's idea of mixed systems to ensure having the positives of each type of governmental structure. When the notion of “consent of the governed” was established, what percentage of the governed would you estimate were dependent on the government for subsistence and survival? |
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USA
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Posted: Today 7:46:54 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Thrasymachus: Because performing a task is not the same as ensuring the government has the consent of the governed. One of Madison's central points in the Federalist Papers is that the process of filtration is to avoid the worst tendencies of the masses. The founders did not take Plato as their reference point, but instead used Aristotle's and Machiavelli's idea of mixed systems to ensure having the positives of each type of governmental structure. Machiavelli was a psychopath... |
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Posted: Today 7:47:05 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Low_Country: This is a problem, isn’t it? Kinda where my opinion is coming from. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Low_Country: Originally Posted By macros73: How much understanding of present issues or platforms is shown today by the majority of voters, even those who are small business owners, family men, or church pastors? Why family men, if the woman is working too, or the sole income earner? I'm not opposed to voter ID laws in principle, but that's a different argument vs. limiting who is allowed to vote at all. This is a problem, isn’t it? Kinda where my opinion is coming from. It is. Arbitrary restrictions on who can vote doesn't necessarily improve it, and depending on which faction manages to force through its definition of who should be franchised, it could make things worse. It concentrates the biases and ignorance to reflect those of the represented class, and sets a path towards violence between the represented and unrepresented. |
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Posted: Today 7:50:51 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By macros73: It is. Arbitrary restrictions on who can vote doesn't necessarily improve it, and depending on which faction manages to force through its definition of who should be franchised, it could make things worse. It concentrates the biases and ignorance to reflect those of the represented class, and sets a path towards violence between the represented and unrepresented. Nothing has to be arbitrary. I could list a couple dozen fair, objective, and non-partisan criteria off the top of my head which would easily increase the quality of our electorate. |
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Posted: Today 7:52:10 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By marcus5819: @macros73 I owe you an apology. I will hence for read before committing Oppps 
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NV, USA
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Posted: Today 7:52:26 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Low_Country: When the notion of “consent of the governed” was established, what percentage of the governed would you estimate were dependent on the government for subsistence and survival? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Low_Country: Originally Posted By Thrasymachus: Because performing a task is not the same as ensuring the government has the consent of the governed. One of Madison's central points in the Federalist Papers is that the process of filtration is to avoid the worst tendencies of the masses. The founders did not take Plato as their reference point, but instead used Aristotle's and Machiavelli's idea of mixed systems to ensure having the positives of each type of governmental structure. When the notion of “consent of the governed” was established, what percentage of the governed would you estimate were dependent on the government for subsistence and survival? Given the intermixing of church and state, a significant amount of the population. Add to that the advent the tax funded poorhouse, then the reality was that at the time of Locke's writing and the founding of the US a significant portion of society was dependent upon some form of subsidy. That is irrelevant to the point, however, since consent of the governed is an established right and not one that can be whittled away. |
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Posted: Today 7:53:43 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Low_Country: You are correct. Not everybody recognizes Trump is still a NY 90’s democrat at heart, who decided to run with an (R) behind his name. But that doesn’t make it any less true. Ok, let’s go with Trump, the 90’s Democrat (whatever that is): When you say Trump hijacked the Republican Party, the absurd implication is that the party was thriving under the 2000s Republicans. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: Today 7:54:04 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1paintball: Machiavelli was a psychopath... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1paintball: Originally Posted By Thrasymachus: Because performing a task is not the same as ensuring the government has the consent of the governed. One of Madison's central points in the Federalist Papers is that the process of filtration is to avoid the worst tendencies of the masses. The founders did not take Plato as their reference point, but instead used Aristotle's and Machiavelli's idea of mixed systems to ensure having the positives of each type of governmental structure. Machiavelli was a psychopath... Based upon? |
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Posted: Today 7:55:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: eurotrash]
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Low_Country: Nothing has to be arbitrary. I could list a couple dozen fair, objective, and non-partisan criteria off the top of my head which would easily increase the quality of our electorate. I’ll ask again, what criteria would you use to select delegates? I think I would make a great one. |
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GA, USA
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Posted: Today 7:56:33 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Low_Country: When the notion of “consent of the governed” was established, what percentage of the governed would you estimate were dependent on the government for subsistence and survival? Since without the government-provided Continental Army and government-provided laision with Spain snd France they would still be British subjects, I’d say “all of them”. |
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Posted: Today 7:59:09 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By eurotrash: I'll ask again, what criteria would you use to select delegates? I think I would make a great one. |
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Posted: Today 8:13:48 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Low_Country: Can you make an argument for universal suffrage using anything more than emotional appeals? And the 84% of GD who think Trump is the greatest president in the last 30 years were also ready to nominate Desantis. Quite the fickle bunch, wouldn't you say? Not exact the litmus test I'd choose when seeking objective truth. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/430926/IMG_0917-2827850.png Desantis got Jebbed. |
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Posted: Today 8:15:46 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Low_Country: Nothing has to be arbitrary. I could list a couple dozen fair, objective, and non-partisan criteria off the top of my head which would easily increase the quality of our electorate. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Low_Country: Originally Posted By macros73: It is. Arbitrary restrictions on who can vote doesn't necessarily improve it, and depending on which faction manages to force through its definition of who should be franchised, it could make things worse. It concentrates the biases and ignorance to reflect those of the represented class, and sets a path towards violence between the represented and unrepresented. Nothing has to be arbitrary. I could list a couple dozen fair, objective, and non-partisan criteria off the top of my head which would easily increase the quality of our electorate. I believe that within a few generations, that well-intentioned selection of the electorate would devolve and ignore the concerns of the unrepresented. |
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Posted: Today 8:20:37 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By eurotrash: Ok, let’s go with Trump, the 90’s Democrat (whatever that is): When you say Trump hijacked the Republican Party, the absurd implication is that the party was thriving under the 2000s Republicans. No, and I’m tired of that argument. There is much about the Bush Era GOP that doesn’t deserve support either. But you also cannot deny the GOP has moved further left under Trump, both fiscally and socially, than under any president in recent memory. |
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Posted: Today 8:25:38 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Low_Country: I appreciate the debate. But I just do not believe that some petty dope dealer on food stamps and 5 kids from 5 moms deserves the same sway as somebody like a successful small business owner, family man, or church pastor. I can't think of any other institution where there is a blanket assumption that everybody has the equal capability or is equally deserving, to perform a task. I don't know why governance should be any different. Or would you chose we have certain classes of citizens? |
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USA
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Posted: Today 8:29:51 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FreefallRet: Common written test, then the top 10% fight to the death for the position. Thunderdome. 
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USA
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Posted: Today 8:37:39 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Thrasymachus: Based upon? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Thrasymachus: Originally Posted By 1paintball: Originally Posted By Thrasymachus: Because performing a task is not the same as ensuring the government has the consent of the governed. One of Madison's central points in the Federalist Papers is that the process of filtration is to avoid the worst tendencies of the masses. The founders did not take Plato as their reference point, but instead used Aristotle's and Machiavelli's idea of mixed systems to ensure having the positives of each type of governmental structure. Machiavelli was a psychopath... Based upon? I`ve read "The Prince" and some of the Discourses, and while I can appreciate his impiricism and disdain for religion, he clearly exibited some Cluster B personality traits. |
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Posted: Today 8:37:54 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By eurotrash: I’ll ask again, what criteria would you use to select delegates? I think I would make a great one. I’d have to think about it. But probably something similar to what we have now. Governors, party leadership, state level legislators, etc… |
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Posted: Today 8:42:10 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FreefallRet: All Citizens should be allowed to vote Or would you chose we have certain classes of citizens? We do have different classes of citizens. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: Today 8:45:54 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1paintball: I`ve read "The Prince" and some of the Discourses, and while I can appreciate his impiricism and disdain for religion, he clearly exibited some Cluster B personality traits. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1paintball: Originally Posted By Thrasymachus: Originally Posted By 1paintball: Originally Posted By Thrasymachus: Because performing a task is not the same as ensuring the government has the consent of the governed. One of Madison's central points in the Federalist Papers is that the process of filtration is to avoid the worst tendencies of the masses. The founders did not take Plato as their reference point, but instead used Aristotle's and Machiavelli's idea of mixed systems to ensure having the positives of each type of governmental structure. Machiavelli was a psychopath... Based upon? I`ve read "The Prince" and some of the Discourses, and while I can appreciate his impiricism and disdain for religion, he clearly exibited some Cluster B personality traits. And that is relevant how? |
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USA
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Posted: Today 8:46:01 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryThe fact that Trump is not a religious fanatic is actually very appealing to many people, probably the majority of people... |
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Posted: Today 8:47:57 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By macros73: I believe that within a few generations, that well-intentioned selection of the electorate would devolve and ignore the concerns of the unrepresented. I want an electorate capable of holding the government accountable. I believe a selective and qualified electorate would be more capable of doing so, than a general unqualified electorate. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: Today 8:48:17 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1paintball: The fact that Trump is not a religious fanatic is actually very appealing to many people, probably the majority of people... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1paintball: The fact that Trump is not a religious fanatic is actually very appealing to many people, probably the majority of people... Yep, he just replaced worshiping God with worshiping himself. |
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Posted: Today 8:54:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: eurotrash]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Low_Country: I want an electorate capable of holding the government accountable. I believe a selective and qualified electorate would be more capable of doing so, than a general unqualified electorate. Sweet, sign me up. I pay my taxes, only have moving violations, have a solid work history of increasing responsibility, and I’m now part time University faculty. My candidate is Vince McMahon. |
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USA
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Posted: Today 8:57:00 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FreefallRet: I would vote for Desantis, but he didn't even make the first round cut vs a 78 plus year old former WWF star. Desantis got Jebbed. |
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Posted: Today 9:01:34 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By eurotrash: Sweet, sign me up. I pay my taxes, only have moving violations, have a solid work history of increasing responsibility, and I’m now part time University faculty. My candidate is Vince McMahon. I detest people who would restrict voting rights based on a presumption of how they would vote. I don’t agree with that. I would support non-partisan qualification. And you would pass the test. |
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USA
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Posted: Today 9:01:41 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Thrasymachus: Yep, he just replaced worshiping God with worshiping himself. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Thrasymachus: Originally Posted By 1paintball: The fact that Trump is not a religious fanatic is actually very appealing to many people, probably the majority of people... Yep, he just replaced worshiping God with worshiping himself. There is not a god that made us in his image, we made gods for ourselves in our idealized image. |
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USA
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Posted: Today 9:09:39 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Low_Country: I detest people who would restrict voting rights based on a presumption of how they would vote. I don’t agree with that. I would support non-partisan qualification. And you would pass the test. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: Today 9:12:10 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1paintball: There is not a god that made us in his image, we made gods for ourselves in our idealized image. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1paintball: Originally Posted By Thrasymachus: Originally Posted By 1paintball: The fact that Trump is not a religious fanatic is actually very appealing to many people, probably the majority of people... Yep, he just replaced worshiping God with worshiping himself. There is not a god that made us in his image, we made gods for ourselves in our idealized image.  That probably sounds really nice when you recite it in the mirror with your fedora on. |
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Posted: Today 9:14:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Low_Country]
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1paintball: Non-partisan? It is an extremely rare person that is born without innate tribal instincts, or to find someone who has overcome them. And yet, they exist. And you’re arguing against a guy encouraging precisely that type of selectivity. ETA: Or perhaps even better, somebody who harbors partisanship, recognizes it, and it able to overcome. How do you feel about Americans burning the Stars and Stripes? |
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CT, USA
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Posted: Today 9:15:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ranging-by-zipcode]
[#33]
Pick your poison when it went down hill 1830 HISTORY OF VOTING
Declaration of Independence 1776 When this country announced its independence from Britain, voting rights were based on property ownership. This typically meant that those voting were white males over the age of 21 of Protestant religion. 1787 In the newly drafted Constitution, states were given the power to set voting mandates and most were still favorable to white males who owned property. 1830 Many states had dropped religion and property ownership as requirements for voting and with such a large percentage of the population at the polls, political parties were beginning to develop. African American Voting 1868 The 14th Amendment recognizes African Americans as citizens, giving them the right to vote. However, state officials continue attempts to deny this right. 1870 African Americans were given the right to vote in the 15th Amendment. It prohibited any state or local government from denying that right. 1890 Wyoming becomes the first state to recognize women's right to vote and provide for it in a state constitution. 1913 Voting power is expanded with 17th Amendment, calling for the popular election of US. senators. Women Vote 1920 The 19th Amendment was added to the Constitution, giving women across the nation the right to vote. Native Americans Vote 1940 Congress recognizes Native Americans as citizens. However, it wasn't until 1947 that all states granted them the right to vote. 1964 The 24th Amendment declares that no person should be denied the right to vote because they cannot pay a "poll tax." 1965 An amendment to the Voting Rights Act bans the use of literacy tests, poll taxes and other obstacles designed to keep people from voting. Vote Peace 1971 The voting age is lowered to 18. |
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Posted: Today 9:19:01 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ranging-by-zipcode: Pick your poison when it went down hill 1830 HISTORY OF VOTING Declaration of Independence 1776 When this country announced its independence from Britain, voting rights were based on property ownership. This typically meant that those voting were white males over the age of 21 of Protestant religion. 1787 In the newly drafted Constitution, states were given the power to set voting mandates and most were still favorable to white males who owned property. 1830 Many states had dropped religion and property ownership as requirements for voting and with such a large percentage of the population at the polls, political parties were beginning to develop. African American Voting 1868 The 14th Amendment recognizes African Americans as citizens, giving them the right to vote. However, state officials continue attempts to deny this right. 1870 African Americans were given the right to vote in the 15th Amendment. It prohibited any state or local government from denying that right. 1890 Wyoming becomes the first state to recognize women's right to vote and provide for it in a state constitution. 1913 Voting power is expanded with 17th Amendment, calling for the popular election of US. senators. Women Vote 1920 The 19th Amendment was added to the Constitution, giving women across the nation the right to vote. Native Americans Vote 1940 Congress recognizes Native Americans as citizens. However, it wasn't until 1947 that all states granted them the right to vote. 1964 The 24th Amendment declares that no person should be denied the right to vote because they cannot pay a "poll tax." 1965 An amendment to the Voting Rights Act bans the use of literacy tests, poll taxes and other obstacles designed to keep people from voting. Vote Peace 1971 The voting age is lowered to 18. It really started going downhill when voter ID became viewed as a form of voter suppression. |
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USA
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Posted: Today 9:25:10 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Thrasymachus: That probably sounds really nice when you recite it in the mirror with your fedora on. 
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CT, USA
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Posted: Today 9:27:28 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By eurotrash: It really started going downhill when voter ID became viewed as a form of voter suppression. There is no one on this board smarter than our founding fathers  They were brilliant men . |
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Posted: Today 9:30:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Low_Country]
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ranging-by-zipcode: There is no one on this board smarter than our founding fathers They were brilliant men . Their greatest attribute, and one of the hallmarks of American exceptionalism, has always been compromise. Educated men debating, and then compromising, is something we should strive to return to. An all-or-none mentality demanded by the unwashed masses is the antithesis of American exceptionalism. |
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Posted: Today 9:33:21 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ranging-by-zipcode: There is no one on this board smarter than our founding fathers They were brilliant men . |
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Posted: Today 9:35:26 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FreefallRet: Brilliant men who owned slaves. Men should be judged by their actions in the times in which they lived. |
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CT, USA
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Posted: Today 9:41:27 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Low_Country: Their greatest attribute, and one of the hallmarks of American exceptionalism, has always been compromise. Educated men debating, and then compromising, is something we should strive to return to. An all-or-none mentality demanded by the unwashed masses is the antithesis of American exceptionalism. Dude you surprise me sometimes and I'm not easliy surprised on this board by comments posted . |
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Posted: Today 9:41:31 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ranging-by-zipcode: There is no one on this board smarter than our founding fathers They were brilliant men . Idk Hamilton was a dumbass who believed in central banking. |
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Posted: Today 9:46:32 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ranging-by-zipcode: Dude you surprise me sometimes and I'm not easliy surprised on this board by comments posted . Conversation and debate over ideas, not feelings, is something at which we can all strive to do better. And when talking stops, violence starts. |
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