Pope Leo excommunicates SSPX Bishops (Page 3 of 3)
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Requests to meet after announcing consecrations. Actions are louder than words, indeed. And those actions started long before Leo was Pope. I guess it's on us to discern what those actions really say about the actors. From where I sit, SSPX has thrown decades of red meat of half truths and conspiracy theories to its eager constituency and quite literally has decided it is more Catholic than the Pope. You can't reconcile with people who are not interested in reconciliation. They have been requesting for over 5 yrs. Traditionis custodes, they say, confirmed their need to go forward with the Consecrations. Could you please reference the half-truths and conspiracies? |
"Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't be there. Eighty are just targets. Nine are the real fighters, and we are glad to have them. For they make the battle. Ah! But THE one! The One is a WARRIOR, and he will bring the others home." -Heraclitus
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Originally Posted By Zhukov: Reading up about SSPX, I found this amusing entry about one of the 4 "bishops" ordained by Lefebre: Oh - so disobeying your superiors is bad? Obeidience is not infallible. Bishop Williamson was amazing. You should watch some of his lectures and homilies. |
"Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't be there. Eighty are just targets. Nine are the real fighters, and we are glad to have them. For they make the battle. Ah! But THE one! The One is a WARRIOR, and he will bring the others home." -Heraclitus
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: As for conspiracy theory, one huge one is the idea that the FSSP is a trap meant to lure unsuspecting faithful and which will have the rug pulled out from under it in due time, as opposed to a legitimate outreach from the Church to those who want to preserve the liturgies and rites in the way the Church seeks to reserve the various eastern rites (and, as recently as the 18th century, was quite hostile to... my own sense of a "type" of personality that tried to latinize eastern liturgies is the same "type" that is openly hostile to to NO, so I sense a certain irony in how some western-rite traditionalists seek out eastern rite churches as a refuge). Time will tell. When we start reading about suppression of FSSP ordinations and congregations, many here can rightfully tell me they told me so. But all around me, I see younger people wanting more reverence and tradition while the aging boomers cling to their "make this relevant for the modern era" rhetoric they were indoctrinated with / learned in the 1970s. I don't see that as the fault of Vatican 2 or the NO as much as a certain wing of the Church taking an inch and trying to stretch it out to a mile. I'll always be the odd egg that wants NO masses in Latin, as I've attended far too many masses in vernaculars where I did not know the prayers and responses. So, what to I know? The FSSP, is in a tenuous situation. They very well could have the "rug pulled out from under them." I see, if the SSPX falls, then the Ecclesia Dei communities, and then ALL of the diocesan TLMs. The Diocesan TLM's are already on tenuous ground. They can only happen under request and indult from the Vatican. To say this is conspiracy, is ridiculous. Traditionis custodes explicitly states that it is to move the ENTIRE Church into the NO Liturgy. |
"Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't be there. Eighty are just targets. Nine are the real fighters, and we are glad to have them. For they make the battle. Ah! But THE one! The One is a WARRIOR, and he will bring the others home." -Heraclitus
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Originally Posted By skid2041: The FSSP, is in a tenuous situation. They very well could have the "rug pulled out from under them." I see, if the SSPX falls, then the Ecclesia Dei communities, and then ALL of the diocesan TLMs. The Diocesan TLM's are already on tenuous ground. They can only happen under request and indult from the Vatican. To say this is conspiracy, is ridiculous. Traditionis custodes explicitly states that it is to move the ENTIRE Church into the NO Liturgy. Originally Posted By skid2041: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: As for conspiracy theory, one huge one is the idea that the FSSP is a trap meant to lure unsuspecting faithful and which will have the rug pulled out from under it in due time, as opposed to a legitimate outreach from the Church to those who want to preserve the liturgies and rites in the way the Church seeks to reserve the various eastern rites (and, as recently as the 18th century, was quite hostile to... my own sense of a "type" of personality that tried to latinize eastern liturgies is the same "type" that is openly hostile to to NO, so I sense a certain irony in how some western-rite traditionalists seek out eastern rite churches as a refuge). Time will tell. When we start reading about suppression of FSSP ordinations and congregations, many here can rightfully tell me they told me so. But all around me, I see younger people wanting more reverence and tradition while the aging boomers cling to their "make this relevant for the modern era" rhetoric they were indoctrinated with / learned in the 1970s. I don't see that as the fault of Vatican 2 or the NO as much as a certain wing of the Church taking an inch and trying to stretch it out to a mile. I'll always be the odd egg that wants NO masses in Latin, as I've attended far too many masses in vernaculars where I did not know the prayers and responses. So, what to I know? The FSSP, is in a tenuous situation. They very well could have the "rug pulled out from under them." I see, if the SSPX falls, then the Ecclesia Dei communities, and then ALL of the diocesan TLMs. The Diocesan TLM's are already on tenuous ground. They can only happen under request and indult from the Vatican. To say this is conspiracy, is ridiculous. Traditionis custodes explicitly states that it is to move the ENTIRE Church into the NO Liturgy. Where does traditionis custodes "explicitly state" this? |
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Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
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As someone that grew up Catholic in the 70s/80s and has been Orthodox for 20+ years, I think the RCC could have done a better job with the transition to English, especially with the music. The Orthodox churches in the US kept their traditional melodies, with English text. It seems to have been a successful thing. I’m in choir so I’m intimately familiar with our music. Years ago I went to the funeral of a Western Rite Orthodox priest. It was all in English, but the music surprised me. It was Gregorian chant with English text. It worked pretty well, to my ears. There’s no reason the RCC had to ditch Gregorian chant. Just switch the Latin for English text. The NO translation could have been better, as well. I remember the bad hymns when I was growing up. Let There Be Peace on Earth was a favorite at my childhood parish and my mother threw a fit if it wasn’t sung weekly (at the end of Mass). Ugh. I still cringe. |
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Where does traditionis custodes "explicitly state" this? Under Article 3. They can not utilize any church buildings, no other Traditional groups will be allowed to be established. The whole thing shows their hand in removal of the TLM. |
"Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't be there. Eighty are just targets. Nine are the real fighters, and we are glad to have them. For they make the battle. Ah! But THE one! The One is a WARRIOR, and he will bring the others home." -Heraclitus
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Originally Posted By skid2041: Under Article 3. They can not utilize any church buildings, no other Traditional groups will be allowed to be established. The whole thing shows their hand in removal of the TLM. Originally Posted By skid2041: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Where does traditionis custodes "explicitly state" this? Under Article 3. They can not utilize any church buildings, no other Traditional groups will be allowed to be established. The whole thing shows their hand in removal of the TLM. You said it was explicit, and now you are saying it is in the subtext? |
History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which Trump is always right.
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: You said it was explicit, and now you are saying it is in the subtext? I guess you are correct. I apologize for my wording. I am definitely biased by living through it. With that said, it is abrogating the TLM at diocesan parishes. Every few months another Bishop is removing and denying the TLM. I need to find it, but there was commentary from the Vatican that stated, it is to bring the Trad communities into the NO. I will continue to look. |
"Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't be there. Eighty are just targets. Nine are the real fighters, and we are glad to have them. For they make the battle. Ah! But THE one! The One is a WARRIOR, and he will bring the others home." -Heraclitus
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Originally Posted By skid2041: @EastWest I believe, if the excommunication is even valid, it will definitely be lifted. If anything, this has solidified my Faith in Tradition. I still believe I am still a Faithful servant to the Church. Originally Posted By skid2041: Originally Posted By EastWest: @skid2041 Yes, I believe I had watched parts of this video recently. I fully agree with her/your conclusions about the message Rome is sending to "normie NO or converts". Shame on them. I still maintain that Leo/Fernandez are selectively weaponizing canon law to suit the personal agendas of both/each. There are other forms of episcopal disobedience they could have gone after. The German bishops and material heresy come to mind. https://europeanconservative.com/articles/commentary/german-bishops-and-the-specter-of-schism-how-did-it-come-to-this/ But they've drawn the lines and unless Leo/Fernandez does some fancy backpedaling, they will have to live with it. That could be ugly on several levels. Back around the time I was received into the Catholic Church (1986) I had concerns that due to the way the western Church was heading, we would eventually see a real or a de facto schism. This would look like a majority "liberal" RC Church (which I called "American Catholic") that would operate separately from an authentic, orthodox Catholicism with much smaller membership numbers. Perhaps we are there. Or maybe we will (miraculously) see a pope lift the July 2nd excommunication just as Pope Benedict did (of the 1988 excommunication) for the SSPX in March 2009. @EastWest I believe, if the excommunication is even valid, it will definitely be lifted. If anything, this has solidified my Faith in Tradition. I still believe I am still a Faithful servant to the Church. @skid I fully agree... and like you, this has solidified my faith in Tradition. As my wife always says to me, "Your soul is your own, just practice the Catholic faith and don't try to change things that are out of your control." I, too, believe I am still a faithful servant to/of the Church. Allegedly St Athanasius was excommunicated by the patriarch of Constantinople for going against the Arian heresy. I, too, expect the July 2nd excommunication to eventually be lifted - and I see quite divergent scenarios of what could happen. We'll see, brother. |
Put not your trust in princes, in sons of men, in whom there is no salvation.
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth, on that very day his plans perish.
Psalms 145/146
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth, on that very day his plans perish.
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Originally Posted By skid2041: I guess you are correct. I apologize for my wording. I am definitely biased by living through it. With that said, it is abrogating the TLM at diocesan parishes. Every few months another Bishop is removing and denying the TLM. I need to find it, but there was commentary from the Vatican that stated, it is to bring the Trad communities into the NO. I will continue to look. Originally Posted By skid2041: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: You said it was explicit, and now you are saying it is in the subtext? I guess you are correct. I apologize for my wording. I am definitely biased by living through it. With that said, it is abrogating the TLM at diocesan parishes. Every few months another Bishop is removing and denying the TLM. I need to find it, but there was commentary from the Vatican that stated, it is to bring the Trad communities into the NO. I will continue to look. Data point of one, but our Bishop here just established a chaplaincy specifically for the FSSP to minister to adherents throughout the diocese. It went into effect last week. |
History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which Trump is always right.
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Data point of one, but our Bishop here just established a chaplaincy specifically for the FSSP to minister to adherents throughout the diocese. It went into effect last week. Thats amazing. Most, are the exact opposite. |
"Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't be there. Eighty are just targets. Nine are the real fighters, and we are glad to have them. For they make the battle. Ah! But THE one! The One is a WARRIOR, and he will bring the others home." -Heraclitus
As a spectator to this, it sometimes seems that I'm reading on a kindergarten level of a doctoral thesis.  I'm now hesitant about going ahead with starting OCIA in the fall. This whole mess sadly reminds me of the schism in the Presbyterian church where the mainline church went full liberal retard and now openly LGBTQ+ individuals are fully eligible to serve as ministers, elders, and deacons. The once orthodox Presbyterian USA church service is now looking like a Pentecostal folk festival. For now, I'm sticking with saying the Rosary and reading the Douay-Rheims translation daily. Praying that this mess clears up. All this is way above my head on what liturgy to attend. I pray for the Church. Ave Maria. |
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Originally Posted By wganz: I'm now hesitant about going ahead with starting OCIA in the fall. … Praying that this mess clears up. All this is way above my head on what liturgy to attend. The Church has said to “remain firm in communion with the Roman Pontiff, with the bishops in communion with him, and with the whole Church (cf. Lumen Gentium, 22; can. 751 CIC), and to refrain from participating in the celebrations and activities promoted by the aforementioned Society of Saint Pius X." They are a small group of schismatics that are very easy to avoid. Seems clear and simple. Simply remain in the Church. Remain with our Pope. God have mercy on them for the scandalizing they are doing. |
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Originally Posted By wganz: As a spectator to this, it sometimes seems that I'm reading on a kindergarten level of a doctoral thesis. I'm now hesitant about going ahead with starting OCIA in the fall. This whole mess sadly reminds me of the schism in the Presbyterian church where the mainline church went full liberal retard and now openly LGBTQ+ individuals are fully eligible to serve as ministers, elders, and deacons. The once orthodox Presbyterian USA church service is now looking like a Pentecostal folk festival. For now, I'm sticking with saying the Rosary and reading the Douay-Rheims translation daily. Praying that this mess clears up. All this is way above my head on what liturgy to attend. I pray for the Church. Ave Maria. If you had already discerned Rome to be Home, don't let this stop you. It seems clear to me that the Catholic Church is bigger than any single Pope. Now on the other hand, if you have reservations about the authority of Scripture vs. tradition, that would be a valid reason to hold up. |
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Originally Posted By wganz: As a spectator to this, it sometimes seems that I'm reading on a kindergarten level of a doctoral thesis. I'm now hesitant about going ahead with starting OCIA in the fall. This whole mess sadly reminds me of the schism in the Presbyterian church where the mainline church went full liberal retard and now openly LGBTQ+ individuals are fully eligible to serve as ministers, elders, and deacons. The once orthodox Presbyterian USA church service is now looking like a Pentecostal folk festival. For now, I'm sticking with saying the Rosary and reading the Douay-Rheims translation daily. Praying that this mess clears up. All this is way above my head on what liturgy to attend. I pray for the Church. Ave Maria. I apologize for confusing you. Don't worry about the politics. Go to OCIA, ask plenty of questions. The answers are all there, even if the instructor doesnt know. The SSPX has been ostracized, misunderstood by normie Catholics, & hated by some, for a long time. |
"Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't be there. Eighty are just targets. Nine are the real fighters, and we are glad to have them. For they make the battle. Ah! But THE one! The One is a WARRIOR, and he will bring the others home." -Heraclitus
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Originally Posted By wganz: As a spectator to this, it sometimes seems that I'm reading on a kindergarten level of a doctoral thesis. I'm now hesitant about going ahead with starting OCIA in the fall. This whole mess sadly reminds me of the schism in the Presbyterian church where the mainline church went full liberal retard and now openly LGBTQ+ individuals are fully eligible to serve as ministers, elders, and deacons. The once orthodox Presbyterian USA church service is now looking like a Pentecostal folk festival. For now, I'm sticking with saying the Rosary and reading the Douay-Rheims translation daily. Praying that this mess clears up. All this is way above my head on what liturgy to attend. I pray for the Church. Ave Maria. I suggest ignoring Church politics and stay the course. The Church is the Church regardless of who leaves it and why. None of this has any bearing on your own path and salvation unless you let it. God bless! |
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Data point of one, but our Bishop here just established a chaplaincy specifically for the FSSP to minister to adherents throughout the diocese. It went into effect last week. Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Originally Posted By skid2041: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: You said it was explicit, and now you are saying it is in the subtext? I guess you are correct. I apologize for my wording. I am definitely biased by living through it. With that said, it is abrogating the TLM at diocesan parishes. Every few months another Bishop is removing and denying the TLM. I need to find it, but there was commentary from the Vatican that stated, it is to bring the Trad communities into the NO. I will continue to look. Data point of one, but our Bishop here just established a chaplaincy specifically for the FSSP to minister to adherents throughout the diocese. It went into effect last week. What liturgy do you go to currently? |
Give me that old time religion
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Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: I suggest ignoring Church politics and stay the course. The Church is the Church regardless of who leaves it and why. None of this has any bearing on your own path and salvation unless you let it. God bless! Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Originally Posted By wganz: As a spectator to this, it sometimes seems that I'm reading on a kindergarten level of a doctoral thesis. I'm now hesitant about going ahead with starting OCIA in the fall. This whole mess sadly reminds me of the schism in the Presbyterian church where the mainline church went full liberal retard and now openly LGBTQ+ individuals are fully eligible to serve as ministers, elders, and deacons. The once orthodox Presbyterian USA church service is now looking like a Pentecostal folk festival. For now, I'm sticking with saying the Rosary and reading the Douay-Rheims translation daily. Praying that this mess clears up. All this is way above my head on what liturgy to attend. I pray for the Church. Ave Maria. I suggest ignoring Church politics and stay the course. The Church is the Church regardless of who leaves it and why. None of this has any bearing on your own path and salvation unless you let it. God bless! Take this advice @wganz I'm in the same boat and the church politics are a distraction to your(and my) conversion. Focus on the reasons you're coming to the church. |
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Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: What liturgy do you go to currently? Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Originally Posted By skid2041: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: You said it was explicit, and now you are saying it is in the subtext? I guess you are correct. I apologize for my wording. I am definitely biased by living through it. With that said, it is abrogating the TLM at diocesan parishes. Every few months another Bishop is removing and denying the TLM. I need to find it, but there was commentary from the Vatican that stated, it is to bring the Trad communities into the NO. I will continue to look. Data point of one, but our Bishop here just established a chaplaincy specifically for the FSSP to minister to adherents throughout the diocese. It went into effect last week. What liturgy do you go to currently? Just the standard Latin Rite Novus Ordo mass. |
History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which Trump is always right.
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Just the standard Latin Rite Novus Ordo mass. Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Originally Posted By skid2041: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: You said it was explicit, and now you are saying it is in the subtext? I guess you are correct. I apologize for my wording. I am definitely biased by living through it. With that said, it is abrogating the TLM at diocesan parishes. Every few months another Bishop is removing and denying the TLM. I need to find it, but there was commentary from the Vatican that stated, it is to bring the Trad communities into the NO. I will continue to look. Data point of one, but our Bishop here just established a chaplaincy specifically for the FSSP to minister to adherents throughout the diocese. It went into effect last week. What liturgy do you go to currently? Just the standard Latin Rite Novus Ordo mass. 10-4, I do as well for the most part. |
Give me that old time religion
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Originally Posted By wganz: For now, I'm sticking with saying the Rosary and reading the Douay-Rheims translation daily. Praying that this mess clears up. All this is way above my head on what liturgy to attend. I pray for the Church. Ave Maria. For now, depending where you live, there might be Latin Masses within easy driving distance at "regular" Catholic churches. For me an hours drive has four to choose from. I think at least three of them offer Sunday Latin Mass, although it varies Low and High Mass depending on week at least at some. I used to drive my Mom to one every Sunday. She liked all the singing in Latin. |
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Dr. Marshall, with all sorts of "trad" credential here, weighing in. Why I Cannot Support the SSPX under Fr Pagliarani - by Dr. Taylor Marshall He focuses on the bit I'd read about regarding the consecration ceremony itself beginning at 15:30. |
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This came out on YT this evening. I have a high opinion of both of these men, John-Henry Westin and Fr James Altman. I agree with Fr Altman's thinking here, have been saying at least a couple of the things that he brings up in this conversation.  Fr. Altman on the SSPX Bishop Consecrations and Excommunications ETA Oh, and if you don't have much time, watch the first five minutes and see Pope Leo and the Archbisop-ette of Canterbury in a vespers service together. Leo's apparent support of her ministry baffles me. |
Put not your trust in princes, in sons of men, in whom there is no salvation.
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth, on that very day his plans perish.
Psalms 145/146
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth, on that very day his plans perish.
Psalms 145/146
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Originally Posted By EastWest: This came out on YT this evening. I have a high opinion of both of these men. I agree with Fr Altman's thinking here, have been saying at least a couple of the things that he brings up in this conversation.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1YRtJqSQKcETA Oh, and if you don't have much time, watch the first five minutes and see Pope Leo and the Archbisop-ette of Canterbury in a vespers service together. Leo's apparent support of her ministry baffles me. Leo has zero authority over the Archbishop-ette. Even bringing that up continues ongoing campaign to make this about the Pope and not about the SSPX. And it's SSPX that picked this exact battlefield, down to the date and time. I think this guy is completely mischaracterizing what has happened. |
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Leo has zero authority over the Archbishop-ette. Even bringing that up continues ongoing campaign to make this about the Pope and not about the SSPX. And it's SSPX that picked this exact battlefield, down to the date and time. I think this guy is completely mischaracterizing what has happened. Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Originally Posted By EastWest:P This came out on YT this evening. I have a high opinion of both of these men. I agree with Fr Altman's thinking here, have been saying at least a couple of the things that he brings up in this conversation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1YRtJqSQKcETA Oh, and if you don't have much time, watch the first five minutes and see Pope Leo and the Archbishop-ette of Canterbury in a vespers service together. Leo's apparent support of her ministry baffles me. Leo has zero authority over the Archbishop-ette. Even bringing that up continues ongoing campaign to make this about the Pope and not about the SSPX. And it's SSPX that picked this exact battlefield, down to the date and time. I think this guy is completely mischaracterizing what has happened. I have no idea why you would bring up the question of Leo's authority (or lack thereof) over Dame Sarah Mullally. That's germane to nothing. Of course the Roman pope has no authority over a protestant bishop. Pope Leo essentially concelebrates a vespers service with a protestant bishop who among other things generally supports abortion and same sex unions. That's not some ad hominem attack on the Pope by Fr Altman. Leo's concelebrating with her (especially given what she stands for) is a problem. It is clear to me that we are seeing selective, weaponization of canon law. While the Vatican ignores the spirit of the law. If Rome wants to follow the letter of the law and excommunicate the SSPX for consecrating four bishops who uphold the Catholic faith, that is its right. But that it ignores the actions and teachings of people like Fr James Martin, most of the bishops in Germany, WomenPriestsUSA, etc looks - at best - like hypocrisy and heavy handed politics on the part of the Vatican leadership. |
Put not your trust in princes, in sons of men, in whom there is no salvation.
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth, on that very day his plans perish.
Psalms 145/146
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth, on that very day his plans perish.
Psalms 145/146
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Leo has zero authority over the Archbishop-ette. Even bringing that up continues ongoing campaign to make this about the Pope and not about the SSPX. And it's SSPX that picked this exact battlefield, down to the date and time. I think this guy is completely mischaracterizing what has happened. Its about both, the Papal seat AND the SSPX holding to 2000 yrs of Catholic doctrine and Traditions. It shows the glaring contrast that the Church Leadership has turn to the World. Remember, the Cardinal who excommunicated, is stated on recorded as saying, "all men are saved." This has never been held by the Catholic Faith. Again, its all about the perception. It weakens the Church and its Authority as the Bride of Christ. You are either under fielty to the City of Man or the City of God.... you can not be both. Which is what caused ABp Lefevre to Consecrate in 1987. When St Pope JPII allowed a Buddha state to be placed on top of the tabernacle, in Assisi. It scandalized the Faith. |
"Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't be there. Eighty are just targets. Nine are the real fighters, and we are glad to have them. For they make the battle. Ah! But THE one! The One is a WARRIOR, and he will bring the others home." -Heraclitus
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The Pope has conveniently withheld his voice from all the SSPX controversy. He posted a milquetoast letter that said just enough for people to think this was all coming from him. He is taking a back seat to distance himself from it. Total politics. This grave of excommunication, can not be delegated to a lower commitee. This requires pure, concise, direct Authority from the Pope. But, again, it is irrelevant to what the globalist want. All they need is the Perception. They have finally figured oit how to circumvent the Seat of Peter. I am glad that the contrast is being shown in the light of day. The sifting will be occurring, for better or worse for us. |
"Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't be there. Eighty are just targets. Nine are the real fighters, and we are glad to have them. For they make the battle. Ah! But THE one! The One is a WARRIOR, and he will bring the others home." -Heraclitus
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The worst part of this is the Vatican has so far failed to care for the flock they are now telling not to go to SSPX Mass under threat of excommunication. If the Catholic Dioceses where these SSPX churches are located do not immediately offer TLM every Sunday, then they have abandoned and rejected part of the Catholic flock entrusted to their care. |
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Originally Posted By skid2041: The Pope has conveniently withheld his voice from all the SSPX controversy. He posted a milquetoast letter that said just enough for people to think this was all coming from him. He is taking a back seat to distance himself from it. Total politics. This grave of excommunication, can not be delegated to a lower commitee. This requires pure, concise, direct Authority from the Pope. But, again, it is irrelevant to what the globalist want. All they need is the Perception. They have finally figured oit how to circumvent the Seat of Peter. I am glad that the contrast is being shown in the light of day. The sifting will be occurring, for better or worse for us. That's a great point about perception being a means to circumvent the Seat of Peter. I'm also glad that the contrast between the Vatican and the SSPX is being shown in the light of day. I just feel sorry for the rank and file in Roman Catholic parishes under the current leadership. |
Put not your trust in princes, in sons of men, in whom there is no salvation.
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth, on that very day his plans perish.
Psalms 145/146
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth, on that very day his plans perish.
Psalms 145/146
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Originally Posted By skid2041: The Pope has conveniently withheld his voice from all the SSPX controversy. He posted a milquetoast letter that said just enough for people to think this was all coming from him. He is taking a back seat to distance himself from it. Total politics. This grave of excommunication, can not be delegated to a lower commitee. This requires pure, concise, direct Authority from the Pope. But, again, it is irrelevant to what the globalist want. All they need is the Perception. They have finally figured oit how to circumvent the Seat of Peter. I am glad that the contrast is being shown in the light of day. The sifting will be occurring, for better or worse for us. |
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Originally Posted By Zhukov: Seriously? Originally Posted By Zhukov: Originally Posted By skid2041: The Pope has conveniently withheld his voice from all the SSPX controversy. He posted a milquetoast letter that said just enough for people to think this was all coming from him. He is taking a back seat to distance himself from it. Total politics. This grave of excommunication, can not be delegated to a lower commitee. This requires pure, concise, direct Authority from the Pope. But, again, it is irrelevant to what the globalist want. All they need is the Perception. They have finally figured oit how to circumvent the Seat of Peter. I am glad that the contrast is being shown in the light of day. The sifting will be occurring, for better or worse for us. "What conspiracy theories?" |
History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which Trump is always right.
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
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Interesting. You must not know their is a greater spiritual battle going on. The Church was infiltrated long ago. It is known a documented. Have you ever heard of the Perpetual Instruction of the Alta Vendita? They did not want to take over the Seat of Peter, but to get one elected that would be formative to their needs. "We must reach the triumph of the revolutionary idea through the Pope by means of small, carefully calibrated steps, though never explicitly defined. […] The work we are undertaking is not the task of a day, a month, or even a year. It may last many years, perhaps a century: but in our ranks, the soldier dies, and the war continues. […] What we must seek and await, as the Jews await the Messiah, is a Pope suited to our needs. […] With him alone, we will more assuredly launch our assault on the Church." The communist recruiting homosexuals and sociopaths and placing them in seminaries? The "globalist" are wanting the world-wide church. The Church of the Antichrist. If you do not think this is occurring, you havent been paying attention. Or, maybe you don't care. |
"Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't be there. Eighty are just targets. Nine are the real fighters, and we are glad to have them. For they make the battle. Ah! But THE one! The One is a WARRIOR, and he will bring the others home." -Heraclitus
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Originally Posted By skid2041: The Church was infiltrated long ago. It hit hard a couple of times in the middle ages. But it's always temporary. I heard horrible things in the early 1980s from new college graduates who visited a seminary after thinking of becoming Priests. But things have been reversing for over a decade. I've seen more old fashioned devoted Priests in the last few years than ever before. The work is within the Church, not splitting off and making yourself a target and excuse to punish everyone for TLM. The restrictions keep being put in place because the SSPX is easily blamed for going too far. I think there would be far more TLM Masses in the world today if the SSPX did not exist. |
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Originally Posted By skid2041: Interesting. You must not know their is a greater spiritual battle going on. The Church was infiltrated long ago. It is known a documented. Have you ever heard of the Perpetual Instruction of the Alta Vendita? They did not want to take over the Seat of Peter, but to get one elected that would be formative to their needs. "We must reach the triumph of the revolutionary idea through the Pope by means of small, carefully calibrated steps, though never explicitly defined. [ ] The work we are undertaking is not the task of a day, a month, or even a year. It may last many years, perhaps a century: but in our ranks, the soldier dies, and the war continues. [ ] What we must seek and await, as the Jews await the Messiah, is a Pope suited to our needs. [ ] With him alone, we will more assuredly launch our assault on the Church." The communist recruiting homosexuals and sociopaths and placing them in seminaries? The "globalist" are wanting the world-wide church. The Church of the Antichrist. If you do not think this is occurring, you havent been paying attention. Or, maybe you don't care. Originally Posted By skid2041: Interesting. You must not know their is a greater spiritual battle going on. The Church was infiltrated long ago. It is known a documented. Have you ever heard of the Perpetual Instruction of the Alta Vendita? They did not want to take over the Seat of Peter, but to get one elected that would be formative to their needs. "We must reach the triumph of the revolutionary idea through the Pope by means of small, carefully calibrated steps, though never explicitly defined. [ ] The work we are undertaking is not the task of a day, a month, or even a year. It may last many years, perhaps a century: but in our ranks, the soldier dies, and the war continues. [ ] What we must seek and await, as the Jews await the Messiah, is a Pope suited to our needs. [ ] With him alone, we will more assuredly launch our assault on the Church." The communist recruiting homosexuals and sociopaths and placing them in seminaries? The "globalist" are wanting the world-wide church. The Church of the Antichrist. If you do not think this is occurring, you havent been paying attention. Or, maybe you don't care. No mainstream, verifiable organization is officially working to implement the Alta Vendita. Mainstream historians and sociologists classify the document as a historical relic of 19th-century Italian anti-clericalism rather than an active, functioning blueprint for a modern organization. However, looking at this through the lens of modern geopolitics and religious discourse, the answer changes depending on the perspective: The Secular and Academic Perspective From a historical standpoint, the specific group behind the document the Carbonari ceased to exist in the mid-to-late 19th century as Italy successfully unified. Modern Freemasonry universally rejects the Alta Vendita, stating that they do not have a coordinated agenda to infiltrate or manage the internal affairs of the Catholic Church. Mainstream researchers view the document as 19th-century anti-Masonic propaganda used by monarchists and traditionalists to discredit secular, democratic political movements. The Traditionalist Catholic Perspective Within the world of Traditionalist Catholic commentary, the ideas of the Alta Vendita are viewed as actively operating today, even if not under that specific name. Prominent traditionalist authors argue that modern groups act out the script of the book:
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Originally Posted By Zhukov: Did some brief AI research and it came up with this when I asked it a follow-up question: I think the much simpler explanation is: The world itself is becoming more secular, no secretive organization needed. Originally Posted By Zhukov: Originally Posted By skid2041: Interesting. You must not know their is a greater spiritual battle going on. The Church was infiltrated long ago. It is known a documented. Have you ever heard of the Perpetual Instruction of the Alta Vendita? They did not want to take over the Seat of Peter, but to get one elected that would be formative to their needs. "We must reach the triumph of the revolutionary idea through the Pope by means of small, carefully calibrated steps, though never explicitly defined. [ ] The work we are undertaking is not the task of a day, a month, or even a year. It may last many years, perhaps a century: but in our ranks, the soldier dies, and the war continues. [ ] What we must seek and await, as the Jews await the Messiah, is a Pope suited to our needs. [ ] With him alone, we will more assuredly launch our assault on the Church." The communist recruiting homosexuals and sociopaths and placing them in seminaries? The "globalist" are wanting the world-wide church. The Church of the Antichrist. If you do not think this is occurring, you havent been paying attention. Or, maybe you don't care. No mainstream, verifiable organization is officially working to implement the Alta Vendita. Mainstream historians and sociologists classify the document as a historical relic of 19th-century Italian anti-clericalism rather than an active, functioning blueprint for a modern organization. However, looking at this through the lens of modern geopolitics and religious discourse, the answer changes depending on the perspective: The Secular and Academic Perspective From a historical standpoint, the specific group behind the document the Carbonari ceased to exist in the mid-to-late 19th century as Italy successfully unified. Modern Freemasonry universally rejects the Alta Vendita, stating that they do not have a coordinated agenda to infiltrate or manage the internal affairs of the Catholic Church. Mainstream researchers view the document as 19th-century anti-Masonic propaganda used by monarchists and traditionalists to discredit secular, democratic political movements. The Traditionalist Catholic Perspective Within the world of Traditionalist Catholic commentary, the ideas of the Alta Vendita are viewed as actively operating today, even if not under that specific name. Prominent traditionalist authors argue that modern groups act out the script of the book:
It's interesting the AI even cited Dr. Marshall, and even he can separate his distrust in forces within the Church from the facts of the matter at hand. If the "whatabout" logic is to be taken as some sort of refutation, I have to wonder if there is anything SSPX could do that wouldn't be excused under the "state of emergency" rhetoric. Meanwhile, the plain facts of the matter are that SSPX consecrated these Bishops in direct defiance of Rome, misrepresented this with a false Papal document during the rite itself, and the new Bishops publicly vowed obedience to the man whom they were actively disobeying while taking said vows. Literally the only thing the Vatican could do do prevent this schism would be to have conceded to SSPX demands, after which I guarantee you we'd be hearing about how this is "proof" the society doesn't have schismatic tendencies and that Pope Francis was wrongfully implying otherwise in Traditionis Custodes. |
History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which Trump is always right.
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
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@Bohr_Adam The accompanying letter to TC. Explains how they wish to remove the TLM. TC accompanying letter from Pope Francis "Indications about how to proceed in your dioceses are chiefly dictated by two principles: on the one hand, to provide for the good of those who are rooted in the previous form of celebration and need to return in due time to the Roman Rite promulgated by Saints Paul VI and John Paul II, and, on the other hand, to discontinue the erection of new personal parishes tied more to the desire and wishes of individual priests than to the real need of the “holy People of God.” At the same time, I ask you to be vigilant in ensuring that every liturgy be celebrated with decorum and fidelity to the liturgical books promulgated after Vatican Council II, without the eccentricities that can easily degenerate into abuses. Seminarians and new priests should be formed in the faithful observance of the prescriptions of the Missal and liturgical books, in which is reflected the liturgical reform willed by Vatican Council II." |
"Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't be there. Eighty are just targets. Nine are the real fighters, and we are glad to have them. For they make the battle. Ah! But THE one! The One is a WARRIOR, and he will bring the others home." -Heraclitus
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: It's interesting the AI even cited Dr. Marshall, and even he can separate his distrust in forces within the Church from the facts of the matter at hand. If the "whatabout" logic is to be taken as some sort of refutation, I have to wonder if there is anything SSPX could do that wouldn't be excused under the "state of emergency" rhetoric. Meanwhile, the plain facts of the matter are that SSPX consecrated these Bishops in direct defiance of Rome, misrepresented this with a false Papal document during the rite itself, and the new Bishops publicly vowed obedience to the man whom they were actively disobeying while taking said vows. Literally the only thing the Vatican could do do prevent this schism would be to have conceded to SSPX demands, after which I guarantee you we'd be hearing about how this is "proof" the society doesn't have schismatic tendencies and that Pope Francis was wrongfully implying otherwise in Traditionis Custodes. You know Dr Marshall wrote a whole book on the infiltration, right? "Infiltration" |
"Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't be there. Eighty are just targets. Nine are the real fighters, and we are glad to have them. For they make the battle. Ah! But THE one! The One is a WARRIOR, and he will bring the others home." -Heraclitus
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Originally Posted By Zhukov: Did some brief AI research and it came up with this when I asked it a follow-up question: I think the much simpler explanation is: The world itself is becoming more secular, no secretive organization needed. The group is known who wrote it. At that time it was an Italian masonic sect. This has all been prophesied by many saints and visions from Our Lady. You don't have to follow private revelations though. But things line up pretty well. |
"Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't be there. Eighty are just targets. Nine are the real fighters, and we are glad to have them. For they make the battle. Ah! But THE one! The One is a WARRIOR, and he will bring the others home." -Heraclitus
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Originally Posted By skid2041: @Bohr_Adam The accompanying letter to TC. Explains how they wish to remove the TLM. TC accompanying letter from Pope Francis "Indications about how to proceed in your dioceses are chiefly dictated by two principles: on the one hand, to provide for the good of those who are rooted in the previous form of celebration and need to return in due time to the Roman Rite promulgated by Saints Paul VI and John Paul II, and, on the other hand, to discontinue the erection of new personal parishes tied more to the desire and wishes of individual priests than to the real need of the “holy People of God.” At the same time, I ask you to be vigilant in ensuring that every liturgy be celebrated with decorum and fidelity to the liturgical books promulgated after Vatican Council II, without the eccentricities that can easily degenerate into abuses. Seminarians and new priests should be formed in the faithful observance of the prescriptions of the Missal and liturgical books, in which is reflected the liturgical reform willed by Vatican Council II." Thank you. That is indeed explicit. Chalk me up an another one who suspects the pushback will decrease now that it is not as associated with the conspiracy theories, however legitimate. It really seems to contradict the otherwise strong support for preserving the ancient Eastern liturgies. |
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Originally Posted By skid2041: You know Dr Marshall wrote a whole book on the infiltration, right? "Infiltration" Originally Posted By skid2041: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: It's interesting the AI even cited Dr. Marshall, and even he can separate his distrust in forces within the Church from the facts of the matter at hand. If the "whatabout" logic is to be taken as some sort of refutation, I have to wonder if there is anything SSPX could do that wouldn't be excused under the "state of emergency" rhetoric. Meanwhile, the plain facts of the matter are that SSPX consecrated these Bishops in direct defiance of Rome, misrepresented this with a false Papal document during the rite itself, and the new Bishops publicly vowed obedience to the man whom they were actively disobeying while taking said vows. Literally the only thing the Vatican could do do prevent this schism would be to have conceded to SSPX demands, after which I guarantee you we'd be hearing about how this is "proof" the society doesn't have schismatic tendencies and that Pope Francis was wrongfully implying otherwise in Traditionis Custodes. You know Dr Marshall wrote a whole book on the infiltration, right? "Infiltration" Yes. I am well aware of his book and perspective (have not read it)l that is why I posted his video. I genuinely wasn't sure where he'd fall on this issue, but nobody can accuse the man of intellectual inconsistency. And that's where I'm at with SSPX at this point. |
History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which Trump is always right.
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
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A few Bishops in Europe are making steps to increase Latin Mass access to those who were attending SSPX. We need to see this in the US as well. https://www.ewtnnews.com/world/europe/after-sspx-excommunications-oslo-bishop-offers-wider-latin-mass-access After SSPX excommunications, Oslo bishop offers wider Latin Mass access The bishops of Oslo and Copenhagen have condemned the Society of St. Pius X consecrations as schism while pledging to protect the traditional liturgy within the Church. One of the first concrete diocesan responses in Europe to the fallout from the recent Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) excommunications has come from Norway. Bishop Fredrik Hansen of Oslo has moved to reassure Catholics attached to the Traditional Latin Mass while warning of the grave ecclesial consequences of the society's latest schismatic act. In a letter issued after the illicit episcopal consecrations, Hansen said the four bishops along with their two consecrating bishops "removed themselves from ecclesial communion and from unity with the pope" by taking part in the consecrations without a papal mandate, thereby incurring "the most grave ecclesiastical penalty: 'latae sententiae' excommunication." The Norwegian prelate then expressed willingness to expand access to the traditional liturgy within the Diocese of Oslo for Catholics who may now find themselves disoriented by the SSPX crisis. Keeping the old Mass within the Church Hansen turned directly to Catholics in his diocese who have attended SSPX chapels because of their attachment to the preconciliar liturgy and spirituality. Acknowledging that "these are difficult and distressing days for you," he urged them first of all to "hold fast to unity with our Holy Father, the bishop of Rome, and with me as bishop of Oslo." Rather than simply warning the faithful away from the SSPX, Hansen paired his appeal with a concrete pastoral offer. He pointed out that Mass according to the 1962 Missal is already celebrated every Sunday at St. Joseph Church in Oslo and added that "if there is a need for it, and if it would be for the good of the Church and of souls, I will also expand this form of Mass celebration in our local Church." This makes Norway one of the first places in Europe where a diocesan bishop has responded to the SSPX crisis not only by reaffirming Rome's judgment but also by signaling greater provision for Catholics attached to the older liturgy within full communion with the Church. Hansen also urged Catholics to pray rosaries for Church unity while reminding the laity to "refrain from participating in Masses and other activities run by the Society of St. Pius X." A wider Scandinavian response In neighboring Denmark, speaking to CNA Deutsch, the German-language sister service of EWTN News, Bishop Czes aw Kozon of Copenhagen strongly condemned the SSPX consecrations, calling them "tragic and completely pointless." "It also shows that this is about more than just the old Mass," Kozon said. "People who previously praised the magisterium, emphasized obedience, and promoted the unity of the Church are suddenly doing something like this, which is a clear sign of disobedience and harms the unity of the Church." At the same time, Kozon defended continued space for the traditional liturgy within the Church. Having recently celebrated a pontifical Mass in the traditional rite, he said the older form "should be preserved as long as there are believers who love it and feel connected to it." Kozon also cautioned against framing the old and new rites as rivals. "There shouldn't be any competition between the two forms of Mass," he said, noting instead a pastoral approach that allows room for Catholics attached to the traditional liturgy while affirming the postconciliar liturgy as the Church's ordinary form. |
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Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot: A few Bishops in Europe are making steps to increase Latin Mass access to those who were attending SSPX. We need to see this in the US as well. https://www.ewtnnews.com/world/europe/after-sspx-excommunications-oslo-bishop-offers-wider-latin-mass-access Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot: A few Bishops in Europe are making steps to increase Latin Mass access to those who were attending SSPX. We need to see this in the US as well. https://www.ewtnnews.com/world/europe/after-sspx-excommunications-oslo-bishop-offers-wider-latin-mass-access After SSPX excommunications, Oslo bishop offers wider Latin Mass access The bishops of Oslo and Copenhagen have condemned the Society of St. Pius X consecrations as schism while pledging to protect the traditional liturgy within the Church. One of the first concrete diocesan responses in Europe to the fallout from the recent Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) excommunications has come from Norway. Bishop Fredrik Hansen of Oslo has moved to reassure Catholics attached to the Traditional Latin Mass while warning of the grave ecclesial consequences of the society's latest schismatic act. In a letter issued after the illicit episcopal consecrations, Hansen said the four bishops along with their two consecrating bishops "removed themselves from ecclesial communion and from unity with the pope" by taking part in the consecrations without a papal mandate, thereby incurring "the most grave ecclesiastical penalty: 'latae sententiae' excommunication." The Norwegian prelate then expressed willingness to expand access to the traditional liturgy within the Diocese of Oslo for Catholics who may now find themselves disoriented by the SSPX crisis. Keeping the old Mass within the Church Hansen turned directly to Catholics in his diocese who have attended SSPX chapels because of their attachment to the preconciliar liturgy and spirituality. Acknowledging that "these are difficult and distressing days for you," he urged them first of all to "hold fast to unity with our Holy Father, the bishop of Rome, and with me as bishop of Oslo." Rather than simply warning the faithful away from the SSPX, Hansen paired his appeal with a concrete pastoral offer. He pointed out that Mass according to the 1962 Missal is already celebrated every Sunday at St. Joseph Church in Oslo and added that "if there is a need for it, and if it would be for the good of the Church and of souls, I will also expand this form of Mass celebration in our local Church." This makes Norway one of the first places in Europe where a diocesan bishop has responded to the SSPX crisis not only by reaffirming Rome's judgment but also by signaling greater provision for Catholics attached to the older liturgy within full communion with the Church. Hansen also urged Catholics to pray rosaries for Church unity while reminding the laity to "refrain from participating in Masses and other activities run by the Society of St. Pius X." A wider Scandinavian response In neighboring Denmark, speaking to CNA Deutsch, the German-language sister service of EWTN News, Bishop Czes aw Kozon of Copenhagen strongly condemned the SSPX consecrations, calling them "tragic and completely pointless." "It also shows that this is about more than just the old Mass," Kozon said. "People who previously praised the magisterium, emphasized obedience, and promoted the unity of the Church are suddenly doing something like this, which is a clear sign of disobedience and harms the unity of the Church." At the same time, Kozon defended continued space for the traditional liturgy within the Church. Having recently celebrated a pontifical Mass in the traditional rite, he said the older form "should be preserved as long as there are believers who love it and feel connected to it." Kozon also cautioned against framing the old and new rites as rivals. "There shouldn't be any competition between the two forms of Mass," he said, noting instead a pastoral approach that allows room for Catholics attached to the traditional liturgy while affirming the postconciliar liturgy as the Church's ordinary form. I'd love to see FSSP flourish and grow, and offer special masses at NO parishes for things like Christmas and what not, maybe at the Cathedrals. I don't like this either/or nonsense. But I also get the argument that the new mass was established at Vatican II. |
History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which Trump is always right.
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: I'd love to see FSSP flourish and grow, and offer special masses at NO parishes for things like Christmas and what not, maybe at the Cathedrals. I don't like this either/or nonsense. But I also get the argument that the new mass was established at Vatican II. With you 100% |
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An extremely well balanced review of what is going on: Is the Church Unfair to Traditional Catholics? |
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Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot: An extremely well balanced review of what is going on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLWmNB4Vvp8I've been watching a lot of Jimmy Akin videos, lately. He takes a balanced approach to everything, which I appreciate. (watching one on Novus Ordo right now)  Why the Novus Ordo? Should We Support Both Forms? | Ask Me Anything  What is Schism and What is Heresy? | AMA Catholicism w/Jimmy Akin |
Why is the sky blue?
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What makes the green grass grow?