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Originally Posted By st0newall: i had a honda fit, replaced it with a fiesta st which i still have. i like small hatches. i wish they still made the fiesta st. i wish the performance hatch back was still i thing in the us but everyone wants a big pickup or Suv. the current oil situation may have an impact here. what i really wish theyd bring back would be the datsun 510. a real minicooper (original) would also be cool. i also had a crx HF that got about 45 mpg. these days you can get something like that in a prius. the destabilization of the world oil markets may accelerate the move to EVs whether we like it or not. Prius efficiency play (LE trim) is rated 57 combined. Higher trims are 52 across. 190ish hp, near 7 sec to 60 sprint. About the same hp, few tenths slower than 8k redline K20Z3 in the 8GEN Si mentioned above. More weight bit more torque. Drives much better around town with hybrid torque. Noisy for the money tho, Very much dig hot hatches - definately rally specials. All the reasons those arrived tho are gone. Now that WRC has given up homologation, only Akio's desire is keeping anyone in the game. Even elsewhere, but the current crop of "GTi" stuff in Europe is BEV  . Even Japanese mfg. Nissan Aura Nismo RS e-Power ain't coming. We'll see about Mazda Spirit Racing stuff. Honda Super N ain't quite and won't show in the States anyway, cool tho. GR Yaris - and it Corolla derivative ain't likely to happen again - with the necessitated trick stuff that turned out not to be needed. But it brought TGR-WRT a string of championships and now tied for total mfg with Lancia overall. Not a bad comeback for a cheating team that was banned from WRC.  |
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Originally Posted By HRoark87: Zero Probably not the best name for a Mitsubishi subcompact nowadays...
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The “Three Stupid” Rule: “Do not go to stupid places, with stupid people, and do stupid things”
Religion is a handy device for keeping the philosophically deficient in line.
Religion is a handy device for keeping the philosophically deficient in line.
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Originally Posted By st0newall: i had a honda fit, replaced it with a fiesta st which i still have. i like small hatches. i wish they still made the fiesta st. i wish the performance hatch back was still i thing in the us but everyone wants a big pickup or Suv. the current oil situation may have an impact here. what i really wish theyd bring back would be the datsun 510. a real minicooper (original) would also be cool. i also had a crx HF that got about 45 mpg. these days you can get something like that in a prius. the destabilization of the world oil markets may accelerate the move to EVs whether we like it or not. Damn dude we could be best friends. I would LOVE to have a FiST as my daily. I grew up in the backseat of a Datsun hatch (210 I think 
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Originally Posted By TaxPayer77: One time I drove a Corolla FX 16 GTS, thing was rad, 7500 redline. Now, you have to get a 2011 Civic SI for anything since that revs to 8k. The 3Rib 4A-GE lost some hp in FWD applications (worse VE due to packaging constraints). I want to say 5-6. Doesn't sound like much but it's about 4% - the RWD had 112. The later 7Rib was only slightly better. Later famous 'tops' (silver and black) made better use of those rpms to 8,200. Even then the 8 valve Mk1 GTI 1.8 out of Westmoreland was about as fast factory. High 9s. It also had a proven upgrade path. Junkyard Audi throttle body, Techtonics exhaust, and and easy cam swap. That and some sticky rubber, pulling out rear interior would get you well towards low 8s. The FX16 needed a special header - the common high volume RWD didn't work. So tougher to source. You could also advance and run high octane. Cams weren't nearly as easy. The flapper EFI also constrained intake side. Later MAP conversions were sourced from Japan, but by then few FX16s were around. I'm not sure they produced more than 10-15k per year over those two model years. GTS was maybe a third. There were other 7k+ rom hot hatch engines. But yea many went turbo. Even Charade 926 Turbo, but hell that was a Group B car. No shit. But Group B alone isn't what peeps think. Mitsu had one, so did Peugeot - maybe two depending how we slice it. Alto Works was 8k+. States didn't see any of those. B16A/B you mentioned. The 4A-GE Toyota. Suzuki G13A was close. Buddy had a Cultus GTi. In the States the G13B wasn't JDM 7500 but it was close to Toyotas. |
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Attached File Someone didn't think any Charade or Daihatsu was ever a Group B car.  There were differing B classes. You also had Group A homologated as you can see from the application, Group B9 was up to 1300cc with a 1.4 Turbo modifier. Which is why Daihatsu reduced bore by 3mm (to 926.7) meeting the 1300cc class limit with the turbo calculated displacement.Not only Hrpup be but it had local constituted class Group B wins. Entries could be cross classed. Factory supported effort but not the scale or extent Team Toyota Europe or Peugeot Sport got involved. They won both A and B classes at Kenya at least one year. A4 and B5 I think. It wasn't an overall or even top class win. But as prior, Group B didn't work as most people beleive. Charade was B Segment - SubCompact EPA class - that arrived with a base 1.0L and mostly worked the bottom of most markets. It didn't matter what Daihatsu did in States since they were allocated less then 20k import units /year on negotiated Japanese Voluntary Export Restraint. They couldn't move enough volume or construct enough footprint to make any kind of market in the States. So no transition to on soil mfg. Abandoned market with a pittance of sales. Tho product arrived back later when it mattered . |
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Originally Posted By Alacrity: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/14291/IMG_2800_jpeg-3829578.JPG Someone didn't think any Charade or Daihatsu was ever a Group B car. There were differing B classes. You also had Group A homologated as you can see from the application, Group B9 was up to 1300cc with a 1.4 Turbo modifier. Which is why Daihatsu reduced bore by 3mm (to 926.7) meeting the 1300cc class limit with the turbo calculated displacement.Not only Hrpup be but it had local constituted class Group B wins. Entries could be cross classed. Factory supported effort but not the scale or extent Team Toyota Europe or Peugeot Sport got involved. They won both A and B classes at Kenya at least one year. A4 and B5 I think. It wasn't an overall or even top class win. But as prior, Group B didn't work as most people beleive. Charade was B Segment - SubCompact EPA class - that arrived with a base 1.0L and mostly worked the bottom of most markets. It didn't matter what Daihatsu did in States since they were allocated less then 20k import units /year on negotiated Japanese Voluntary Export Restraint. They couldn't move enough volume or construct enough footprint to make any kind of market in the States. So no transition to on soil mfg. Abandoned market with a pittance of sales. Tho product arrived back later when it mattered . Wow that brings back memories. A friend of mine in high school drove a Charade--at least I'm pretty sure that's what it was. It was red and had "DAIHATSU" in huge letters across the back. I think his parents bought it new for him (they were pretty well off). His senior year he drove a mid-70s 911 with the whale tail. I took a very uncomfortable ride in the backseat once
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Originally Posted By TontoGoldstein: Mazda MX-5? Beyond the colloquial use in showrooms and car discussions, objective, measure driven classes exist In the States subcompact class is an official regulatory aspect stem from congressional action and EPCA '75. The class tiers are codified in CFR 40 600.315. The interior volumes mentioned prior. Under 85 cf Mini-, above but below 100cf Sub-, then Compact and so forth. Two seat cars are classified as such, in their own "Two-Seaters" class. CRX (in the States - JDM models had provisions for 4 "seats" lol), CR-Z, Insight all had more interior volume X Srill minis but excepted out, like MX-5 to the 2 seat class. But if not interior volume would place MX-5 in the MiniCompact class. Things like Scion iQ, with 4 seats was a MiniCompact. So were Spark, Fiat 500. Sport 2+2 like GR 86 and 944 are MiniCompact, 280ZX 2+2 large enough into SubCompact. All on interior volume calcs. That said Subcompact also has industry (S&P Mobility segments based on different measures). S&PM has comparable SUV classes, Subcompact Utility, and SubCompact Plus. Europe classification into A/B (subcompact)/C segments, like the States has both colloquial use and some based in both national market and EU regs. So MX-5 would be grouped with other 2 seaters in most cases. Not entirely pedantic - there's regulatory reasons for specificity in some use. |
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Was doing some research a week ago and found this interesting document And this fun link This thread has great timing It’s a shame how much is offered OCONUS that we’ll never get to enjoy here. While living in Germany in the early 2000’s I greatly admired the vw fox, lupo and polo cars. It was interesting that vw would have 3 or 4 engine options for each of those cars. That was part of their permit/drivers license process though where drivers have to work their way up through engine sizes. |
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Originally Posted By 2sledgehammers: Having bad timing I did the reverse. Got rid of a RAV4 to by a truck (Ranger Raptor ) that pretty much requires premium. Fun truck but premium does sting every fill up. This isn't 1985, just put regular in it and the engine will pull timing to compensate |
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Originally Posted By Lexustech48: Honest answer? Toyota Prius. They are pretty solid cars, and the hybrid powertrain is a mature technology. I test drove the latest gen 5 Prius, and they are gorgeous cars. The interior looked very futuristic. I really enjoyed the way it drove, with a 0-60 of 7 seconds. For a Prius, that's unheard of. Beautiful design, practical, Toyota reliability and 50 mpg combined. What's not to love? I never thought I'd say this, as I'm a sports car nut, but I'm seriously considering buying a Prius. |
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Originally Posted By Ameshawki: My Crosstrek gives me 38 mpg with good gas. I happy with that. Do you drive mostly on the highway @55mph? My 19 Crosstrek (2.0 cvt) averages about 30MPG. If someone wants a relatively comfortable, relatively smooth compact commuter I recommend the newer Prius, wife has a prime & without plugging it in it averages about 54mpg, when charged up it goes into the 70Mpg range, great car! |
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Originally Posted By Alacrity: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/14291/IMG_2800_jpeg-3829578.JPG Someone didn't think any Charade or Daihatsu was ever a Group B car. There were differing B classes. You also had Group A homologated as you can see from the application, Group B9 was up to 1300cc with a 1.4 Turbo modifier. Which is why Daihatsu reduced bore by 3mm (to 926.7) meeting the 1300cc class limit with the turbo calculated displacement.Not only Hrpup be but it had local constituted class Group B wins. Entries could be cross classed. Factory supported effort but not the scale or extent Team Toyota Europe or Peugeot Sport got involved. They won both A and B classes at Kenya at least one year. A4 and B5 I think. It wasn't an overall or even top class win. But as prior, Group B didn't work as most people beleive. Charade was B Segment - SubCompact EPA class - that arrived with a base 1.0L and mostly worked the bottom of most markets. It didn't matter what Daihatsu did in States since they were allocated less then 20k import units /year on negotiated Japanese Voluntary Export Restraint. They couldn't move enough volume or construct enough footprint to make any kind of market in the States. So no transition to on soil mfg. Abandoned market with a pittance of sales. Tho product arrived back later when it mattered . We worked on a Dihatsu Chirade at my first shop. Looked just like a Metro, but parts took weeks to arrive. It was simple but in the shop fairly often. It was also red with the name in the back panel, like a CRX. First car I really worked on was a Mazda 323. Axles, transmission, service work, etc. A buddy inherited it when his dad bought a new Protege. Then we were on to Civics and every other shit box we could track down. |
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Originally Posted By scrambler28: They should bring back the Gremlin. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/483437/2952_webp-3829276.JPG I remember the first one I ever saw. It was the smallest car I had ever seen. |
9 lives - 9 pellets... Coincidence?
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Originally Posted By ag04blast: What exactly do you want, there are plenty of small, sub-compact-ish options out there right now. Civic, Corolla, Elantra, K4, Mazda3, Prius, etc. There are still actual subcompacts available but they dont sell in real high numbers. Those listed here are small and are highly efficient - as much as the old subcompact category. Ill add, and if you want 2 seats they still make the Miata. I think he's referring to Fit/Yaris/Fiesta sized vehicles. Most of these weren't really better on gas than something like a Civic. The Miata isn't cheap (for its size) or particularly good on gas. |
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Originally Posted By M82Assault: This isn't 1985, just put regular in it and the engine will pull timing to compensate Originally Posted By M82Assault: Originally Posted By 2sledgehammers: Having bad timing I did the reverse. Got rid of a RAV4 to by a truck (Ranger Raptor ) that pretty much requires premium. Fun truck but premium does sting every fill up. This isn't 1985, just put regular in it and the engine will pull timing to compensate And give Ford a reason to void the powertrain warranty. Its a Ford, so one may very well need it. |
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Originally Posted By mursalot: Was doing some research a week ago and found this interesting document And this fun link This thread has great timing It's a shame how much is offered OCONUS that we'll never get to enjoy here. While living in Germany in the early 2000's I greatly admired the vw fox, lupo and polo cars. It was interesting that vw would have 3 or 4 engine options for each of those cars. That was part of their permit/drivers license process though where drivers have to work their way up through engine sizes. But auto, the Grey license, that was some time before the 90s got you some extras - moto classed as well which Pink didn't and I think the trailering endorsement. (Yea, there's restrictions towing and in my experience actively enforced). Pink in the 90s you hit 18, tested and passed. Spendy and many hoops compared to UK tho. But Class 3 was the general license which got you auto privileges to some non-commercial weight. Not Moto tho. I'm not sure later, but at some point - I want to say 2000, when much changed, but that seems too logical, and not strongly recalled , EU wide classes came in. Numbers to letters and card issued like the States. Those weren't tiered auto side AFAIK either. The displacement bracketing - that traditionally worked out to low, mid and high trims that eventually heavily corresponded to 1.0L, 1.4L and 1.6 - and kinda 2.0 in the core mass market - A (city cars like Lupo and Up) B (what Brits coined Superminis and States SubCompact officially - Polo as it grew) and C segments (Family Hatch - Golf) was tax based. Some of this bracketing developed as mfgs responded to tax regimes outside Germany. Italian 2.0L wall influenced, and others national markets tiering had impact. It worked into both practical tax response tiering and became expectational. Similar to States where some segments you could expect a 6 cylinder, and V8 and some heavy or perf V8. 1.0L as I mentioned earlier was entry/efficiency play that was roughly 50 hp. 1.4L was mass market mid (roughly 75hp) and upper trims got 1.6K and 100 corresponding hp range. Above that was perf and luxe with 3.0L plus being relatively rare both due to taxation (acquisition, yearly road) and opcosts due to fuel taxes. In Germany in the 90s every 100cc cubic centimeter tier, rounded up. 1001cc was taxed at 1100 - which is why mfgs pushed to near rounded limits. Tax was enhanced by a rate based on emissions (cat or not at one point when Euro 1 came in then Euro 2 etc) and fuel. Unlike other national markets Germany banged diesel pretty hard annually but subsidized fuel. But unlike other markets, no acquisition. You paid VAT - I want so say 15% - and registration. Most were private ownership. Today most are company owned as business provided vehicles - which is something most Americans aren't familiar with. There's incentivizing now that didn't exist then. In the 90s you had stuff like the Cinq 500, Daihatsu Cuore - Top Speed made the 600cc Reliant famous. Sub 1.0L, but weren't useful on UK's 1980s M or A roads when legal limits were 70 mph but no shit 90 was treated as the wall. So there was effective tiering as well. If you did that often you needed a car that could. Economy tiers were heavily - I'm gonna say exclusively petrol. Could be wrong but small diesels sucked even in the 90s and cost more. So 90s B Seg, VW had somthing like a 1.0L, 1.4L, 1.6L structure by the end of the 90s IIRC. Early 90s you had the Mk2, which had been around for evah. Superminis were really still pretty Spartan in the 80s and that carried over. VW, least in UK, had an economy Fox (1.0L) and some mid range. 1.0L were very cheap, stripped cars that omitted much. HVAC was a knob and over or two, 4MT, no power anything including steering (maybe a brake booster. No radio outside UK, which I bet were importer adds. But still only the dash speaker - no doors. 1.0L were dismal rides as I mentioned. AC came in but wasn't offered in many Superminis. These were mass market segments. Even today B and C segment - tho more B and C CUVS - dominate Europes top sellers - and national markets tend still to buy National mfgs. Germans buy VAG, BMW, MB. French PSA and Renault. Italians FIAT. Tho less than prior. I don't think Polo got it until Mk3. Then rare and only on more powerful engines on top trims. It wasn't a 1.0L car option until much later. Don't recall ever seeing G-Lader G40 outside mags. No RHD anyway. Polo GTI came in or out. In the 90s it was forbidden fruit in the UK. But Ford had XR2i and then RS's, Griffen's Corsa GSi and the king Peugeot 106 GTi. B Seg 1.6 tended to be perf. C Seg GTI was more 2.0L. In Germany in the 90s you started seeing more interest in diesel as biodiesel subsidies and availability came on. But mostly it was petrol oriented. Even in the mid '10s when diesel was heavily pushed for CO2, Germany and UK trailed. Neither hit half the market. France and Spain it was like every fucking car (70%+ @ '10 then by '18 diesel had gotten the shaft) and you could tell in urban areas because it wasn't merely VW who was cheating emissions. But, yea, it was tax structure that manipulated demand and caused the displacement - and de facto power tiering. In Germany it wasn't license. But in markets and segments where cost warranted you got forced induction to create power, where displacement did elsewhere. Cost was much more a thing in Europe than the States. Tax dodges drive everything. The famous example is Ferrari 2.0 engines, later turbocharged, for the Italian market cos taxes. Like 40%. But proper V8s depsite 2.0L. So even Ferrari owners and Maranello were coerced. Curious if you recall specific examples maybe later that I'm missing since I just don't have anything to correspond to mfgs strategies working licensing tiers and ps limitt. Outside moto. That came in late 90s. Prior in UK you had L-Plate learners - like smoker TZR 125 choked to 12hp. LOL that lasted until a wire was cut or a power valve mod. Like Ebikes in States now sorta. A 30hp 125 looked like a 12hp at a cop stop. Germany was similar. Insurance was an effective gatekeeper. Total hp was a limit as well. But I only recall the lower classes around 1990. |
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Originally Posted By vanvideo: I test drove the latest gen 5 Prius, and they are gorgeous cars. The interior looked very futuristic. I really enjoyed the way it drove, with a 0-60 of 7 seconds. For a Prius, that's unheard of. Beautiful design, practical, Toyota reliability and 50 mpg combined. What's not to love? I never thought I'd say this, as I'm a sports car nut, but I'm seriously considering buying a Prius. Originally Posted By vanvideo: Originally Posted By Lexustech48: Honest answer? Toyota Prius. They are pretty solid cars, and the hybrid powertrain is a mature technology. I test drove the latest gen 5 Prius, and they are gorgeous cars. The interior looked very futuristic. I really enjoyed the way it drove, with a 0-60 of 7 seconds. For a Prius, that's unheard of. Beautiful design, practical, Toyota reliability and 50 mpg combined. What's not to love? I never thought I'd say this, as I'm a sports car nut, but I'm seriously considering buying a Prius. |
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Originally Posted By maslin02: We worked on a Dihatsu Chirade at my first shop. Looked just like a Metro, but parts took weeks to arrive. It was simple but in the shop fairly often. It was also red with the name in the back panel, like a CRX. First car I really worked on was a Mazda 323. Axles, transmission, service work, etc. A buddy inherited it when his dad bought a new Protege. Then we were on to Civics and every other shit box we could track down. Originally Posted By maslin02: Originally Posted By Alacrity: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/14291/IMG_2800_jpeg-3829578.JPG Someone didn't think any Charade or Daihatsu was ever a Group B car. There were differing B classes. You also had Group A homologated as you can see from the application, Group B9 was up to 1300cc with a 1.4 Turbo modifier. Which is why Daihatsu reduced bore by 3mm (to 926.7) meeting the 1300cc class limit with the turbo calculated displacement.Not only Hrpup be but it had local constituted class Group B wins. Entries could be cross classed. Factory supported effort but not the scale or extent Team Toyota Europe or Peugeot Sport got involved. They won both A and B classes at Kenya at least one year. A4 and B5 I think. It wasn't an overall or even top class win. But as prior, Group B didn't work as most people beleive. Charade was B Segment - SubCompact EPA class - that arrived with a base 1.0L and mostly worked the bottom of most markets. It didn't matter what Daihatsu did in States since they were allocated less then 20k import units /year on negotiated Japanese Voluntary Export Restraint. They couldn't move enough volume or construct enough footprint to make any kind of market in the States. So no transition to on soil mfg. Abandoned market with a pittance of sales. Tho product arrived back later when it mattered . We worked on a Dihatsu Chirade at my first shop. Looked just like a Metro, but parts took weeks to arrive. It was simple but in the shop fairly often. It was also red with the name in the back panel, like a CRX. First car I really worked on was a Mazda 323. Axles, transmission, service work, etc. A buddy inherited it when his dad bought a new Protege. Then we were on to Civics and every other shit box we could track down. They weren't great cars. Better than Korea Motors or the GM/Ford Korean crap, but not Toyota/Mazda/GM Toyota crap. Or even VW.The 926T is cool cos Group B. I don't think the States ever got the DeTomaso. It wasn't a GTi-R or Glanza but it did like 120hp. They imported 2 road models. Charade and Rocky - which was more like a Jimny (Samurai) than that first Kia Sportage (which was BOF and LowTC). Los Alamitos HQ in OC did some institutional imports of the Hijet as prep. I think they were out by the time the DeTomoso G200 came in now that I think about it. The GTti was around when they were in but I don't think that make it either. ETA - good to see elsewhere your truck is hanging in. There's a few I wonder if they caught a shit sammich here. Glad it's not you. |
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Originally Posted By mancat: You can get a Nissan Versa with a manual for $19k. I have seriously thought of buying one. Maybe once my son needs a car. Had a versa as a rental for two weeks. Absolutely one of the worst cars I’ve ever had the displeasure of driving. Get him a used Mazda3 if you want him to enjoy driving. |
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
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@ege Sorry man we've been all over and not a lot of help for your short car ask later in the thread. GenY hit on some good options.  Should You Buy a 2026 Hyundai Venue? The Cheapest New Car in 2026 Ahmed likes it. He's a very astute former Toyota Master Diagnostic Tech. No CVT a plus Otherwise used, something like a Prius C would work if you'd like big mpgs as well. Later ('15 on) do better. Big dollar thing is the traction battery. They're starting to age out tho you can score a battery under $2k shipped or a Genuine from a local Toyota dealer @$2500. You can change it in your driveway. Keep the vents clean. They need the EGR system cleaned every 100 and you'll probably need an inverter coolant pump before 200k but otherwise pretty solid. Clean the battery. A buddy funds his Mini addiction/racing with buy and flip. His reco for these is '04 or the '05-''06 base manual. I never think they're a good idea but he's had good luck with careful choices. Those years are the Tritec engines. Later Prince suck. They are cheapish with lower miles. Sub 100k. Especially when leaking at valve cover, and a couple other seals. First is easy. Others not so much but DIY doable. . If you're interested he's got a list of fixes he does and resolves much for less than a grand - including DIY oil pan and/or cam position sensor seal if leaking done. Sporty, nicer choice. Otherwise is Scion xA, Yaris (fadedsun's experience isn't uncommon), Fit, or Mazda 2 - which the last Yaris iA were merely badged - long but almost a foot shorter than current Corolla. I'd avoid 500, Spark, Fiesta/Ecosport, Sonic. Agnostic on Versa manual - and Mirage manual if your handy, some soft spots that will require repeated attention. Kinda mixed on Rio hatch, Soul and Accent. 3GEN Accent was a 3 door hatch. Engine was decent (Alpha II, port injected, pretty well sorted by the time late Accents came in). But it's a timing belt and invariably treated like shit and poorly maintained. Has some common leaks develop which nobody fixes, tho easy enough. No CVT but the autos don't seem to go long - like 100-150, sometimes earlier. Maybe maint. Find a good one, manual, maybe. MX-5 which @TontoGoldstein reco'd - just realized he was asking you not ask in about Miata being a SubCompact  Luck man |
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Originally Posted By Alacrity: @ege Sorry man we've been all over and not a lot of help for your short car ask later in the thread. GenY hit on some good options.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjZGJ9U_LVoAhmed likes it. He's a very astute former Toyota Master Diagnostic Tech. No CVT a plus Otherwise used, something like a Prius C would work if you'd like big mpgs as well. Later ('15 on) do better. Big dollar thing is the traction battery. They're starting to age out tho you can score a battery under $2k shipped or a Genuine from a local Toyota dealer @$2500. You can change it in your driveway. Keep the vents clean. They need the EGR system cleaned every 100 and you'll probably need an inverter coolant pump before 200k but otherwise pretty solid. Clean the battery. A buddy funds his Mini addiction/racing with buy and flip. His reco for these is '04 or the '05-''06 base manual. I never think they're a good idea but he's had good luck with careful choices. Those years are the Tritec engines. Later Prince suck. They are cheapish with lower miles. Sub 100k. Especially when leaking at valve cover, and a couple other seals. First is easy. Others not so much but DIY doable. . If you're interested he's got a list of fixes he does and resolves much for less than a grand - including DIY oil pan and/or cam position sensor seal if leaking done. Sporty, nicer choice. Otherwise is Scion xA, Yaris (fadedsun's experience isn't uncommon), Fit, or Mazda 2 - which the last Yaris iA were merely badged - long but almost a foot shorter than current Corolla. I'd avoid 500, Spark, Fiesta/Ecosport, Sonic. Agnostic on Versa manual - and Mirage manual if your handy, some soft spots that will require repeated attention. Kinda mixed on Rio hatch, Soul and Accent. 3GEN Accent was a 3 door hatch. Engine was decent (Alpha II, port injected, pretty well sorted by the time late Accents came in). But it's a timing belt and invariably treated like shit and poorly maintained. Has some common leaks develop which nobody fixes, tho easy enough. No CVT but the autos don't seem to go long - like 100-150, sometimes earlier. Maybe maint. Find a good one, manual, maybe. MX-5 which @TontoGoldstein reco'd - just realized he was asking you not ask in about Miata being a SubCompact Luck man Thanks!—actually, I was hoping you’d chime in with more general car musings  GenY mentioned the Venue, which I had not considered. I’m on the east coast at the moment so I haven’t stopped by the Hyundai dealership back home yet, but I’ve been on the lookout for one in the wild. Surprisingly I haven’t seen any the last few days in the DC area. |
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Originally Posted By ske714: The main reason they ever existed here was because of CAFE. They aren't nearly as profitable as larger vehicles. A lot of them were sold at a loss, just so the automakers could sell big, high profit vehicles and still comply with CAFE. CAFE standards are the reason they don't exist anymore. The government in their idiotic reasoning decided that fuel mileage should be based on the size of the vehicle (specifically the wheel ase and track width) and auto manufacturers soon realized that the only way to meet the requirements was to make the vehicles bigger. This is precisely why the Ford Ranger and Toyota Tacoma are as big as full sized pickups from the 1980s and why Corollas are larger than Camrys used to be etc. If you look at a new Mazda crossover you will see that's it's identical to the older version except that the fenders now extend to the width of the mirrors and the new Tacoma has fender flares on it's fender flares. Until something intelligent is done about the insane CAFE standards you will never see a subcompact anything that isn't electric and you will only see subcompact electrics if battery technology improves considerably. |
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Originally Posted By vanvideo: I test drove the latest gen 5 Prius, and they are gorgeous cars. The interior looked very futuristic. I really enjoyed the way it drove, with a 0-60 of 7 seconds. For a Prius, that's unheard of. Beautiful design, practical, Toyota reliability and 50 mpg combined. What's not to love? I never thought I'd say this, as I'm a sports car nut, but I'm seriously considering buying a Prius. Originally Posted By vanvideo: Originally Posted By Lexustech48: Honest answer? Toyota Prius. They are pretty solid cars, and the hybrid powertrain is a mature technology. I test drove the latest gen 5 Prius, and they are gorgeous cars. The interior looked very futuristic. I really enjoyed the way it drove, with a 0-60 of 7 seconds. For a Prius, that's unheard of. Beautiful design, practical, Toyota reliability and 50 mpg combined. What's not to love? I never thought I'd say this, as I'm a sports car nut, but I'm seriously considering buying a Prius. That's one of the best generational turnarounds in recent auto history. The 4th gen Prius was a disgustingly ugly car. Probably top-3 for the decade, and bad enough to appear on all time lists. The 5th gen Prius isn't exactly poster material, but it's much more attractive, and I think the design will age well. |
"Sometimes, the grass is greener because it's on a septic system."
"Sporterizing: The art of spending $700 on a $300 gun to make it worth $200." -GTwannabe
"Sporterizing: The art of spending $700 on a $300 gun to make it worth $200." -GTwannabe
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Originally Posted By Wirebrush: CAFE standards are the reason they don't exist anymore. The government in their idiotic reasoning decided that fuel mileage should be based on the size of the vehicle (specifically the wheel ase and track width) and auto manufacturers soon realized that the only way to meet the requirements was to make the vehicles bigger. This is precisely why the Ford Ranger and Toyota Tacoma are as big as full sized pickups from the 1980s and why Corollas are larger than Camrys used to be etc. If you look at a new Mazda crossover you will see that's it's identical to the older version except that the fenders now extend to the width of the mirrors and the new Tacoma has fender flares on it's fender flares. Until something intelligent is done about the insane CAFE standards you will never see a subcompact anything that isn't electric and you will only see subcompact electrics if battery technology improves considerably. Originally Posted By Wirebrush: Originally Posted By ske714: The main reason they ever existed here was because of CAFE. They aren't nearly as profitable as larger vehicles. A lot of them were sold at a loss, just so the automakers could sell big, high profit vehicles and still comply with CAFE. CAFE standards are the reason they don't exist anymore. The government in their idiotic reasoning decided that fuel mileage should be based on the size of the vehicle (specifically the wheel ase and track width) and auto manufacturers soon realized that the only way to meet the requirements was to make the vehicles bigger. This is precisely why the Ford Ranger and Toyota Tacoma are as big as full sized pickups from the 1980s and why Corollas are larger than Camrys used to be etc. If you look at a new Mazda crossover you will see that's it's identical to the older version except that the fenders now extend to the width of the mirrors and the new Tacoma has fender flares on it's fender flares. Until something intelligent is done about the insane CAFE standards you will never see a subcompact anything that isn't electric and you will only see subcompact electrics if battery technology improves considerably. That didn't go into effect until 2011. |
9 lives - 9 pellets... Coincidence?
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I’d never buy a subcompact. When I was on the fire department we used to joke that they doubled as a coffin when you got in a wreck with one, wasn’t even worth cutting the body out. Called Cavaliers “cadavaliers” A Crown Vic is as small as I’ll go. I had a guy rear end a P71 I had in a Chevy 2500 at 40 MPH and not only was I not injured, I wasn’t even sore the next day. Fuck small cars. 22 MPG is plenty. I stopped giving a shit about gas prices when I was 16 and had an F-150. |
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Originally Posted By 15jonshoot: The only thing I see on the freeway are rear bumpers. I set the cruise at 75 and get passed like I'm standing still. Guess gas prices aren't a big concern for most. I’m letting my diesel F-250 cool off lately but my V8 sedan is getting used plenty. Gas was 5.00 a gallon in ‘08 when I started driving and was making 10 bucks an hour. This is nothing. I live a mile from my job and only work half the days in a year so even if it was $15 a gallon it wouldn’t affect me that much, I could just drive less. |
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Originally Posted By ske714: That didn't go into effect until 2011. Originally Posted By ske714: Originally Posted By Wirebrush: Originally Posted By ske714: The main reason they ever existed here was because of CAFE. They aren't nearly as profitable as larger vehicles. A lot of them were sold at a loss, just so the automakers could sell big, high profit vehicles and still comply with CAFE. CAFE standards are the reason they don't exist anymore. The government in their idiotic reasoning decided that fuel mileage should be based on the size of the vehicle (specifically the wheel ase and track width) and auto manufacturers soon realized that the only way to meet the requirements was to make the vehicles bigger. This is precisely why the Ford Ranger and Toyota Tacoma are as big as full sized pickups from the 1980s and why Corollas are larger than Camrys used to be etc. If you look at a new Mazda crossover you will see that's it's identical to the older version except that the fenders now extend to the width of the mirrors and the new Tacoma has fender flares on it's fender flares. Until something intelligent is done about the insane CAFE standards you will never see a subcompact anything that isn't electric and you will only see subcompact electrics if battery technology improves considerably. That didn't go into effect until 2011. Impacted much in design calculus.. It made small footprints awful untenable - given buyers moves off the segment, the diverging global situation, etc. If your point is the segment was already waning, I get it. If they were still selling as top 5 regularly, there could have been stronger lobbying, (kill, carve or capture) , possibly some other actions. it's certainly impacted investment paths tho. Lots of tendrils in all decisions and corp strategies. But footprint box (WB x Avg Track Width) caused directives to move those points. |
Tertium non datur
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Originally Posted By Ege: Thanks! actually, I was hoping you'd chime in with more general car musings GenY mentioned the Venue, which I had not considered. I'm on the east coast at the moment so I haven't stopped by the Hyundai dealership back home yet, but I've been on the lookout for one in the wild. Surprisingly I haven't seen any the last few days in the DC area. Originally Posted By Ege: Originally Posted By Alacrity: @ege Sorry man we've been all over and not a lot of help for your short car ask later in the thread. GenY hit on some good options. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjZGJ9U_LVoAhmed likes it. He's a very astute former Toyota Master Diagnostic Tech. No CVT a plus Otherwise used, something like a Prius C would work if you'd like big mpgs as well. Later ('15 on) do better. Big dollar thing is the traction battery. They're starting to age out tho you can score a battery under $2k shipped or a Genuine from a local Toyota dealer @$2500. You can change it in your driveway. Keep the vents clean. They need the EGR system cleaned every 100 and you'll probably need an inverter coolant pump before 200k but otherwise pretty solid. Clean the battery. A buddy funds his Mini addiction/racing with buy and flip. His reco for these is '04 or the '05-''06 base manual. I never think they're a good idea but he's had good luck with careful choices. Those years are the Tritec engines. Later Prince suck. They are cheapish with lower miles. Sub 100k. Especially when leaking at valve cover, and a couple other seals. First is easy. Others not so much but DIY doable. . If you're interested he's got a list of fixes he does and resolves much for less than a grand - including DIY oil pan and/or cam position sensor seal if leaking done. Sporty, nicer choice. Otherwise is Scion xA, Yaris (fadedsun's experience isn't uncommon), Fit, or Mazda 2 - which the last Yaris iA were merely badged - long but almost a foot shorter than current Corolla. I'd avoid 500, Spark, Fiesta/Ecosport, Sonic. Agnostic on Versa manual - and Mirage manual if your handy, some soft spots that will require repeated attention. Kinda mixed on Rio hatch, Soul and Accent. 3GEN Accent was a 3 door hatch. Engine was decent (Alpha II, port injected, pretty well sorted by the time late Accents came in). But it's a timing belt and invariably treated like shit and poorly maintained. Has some common leaks develop which nobody fixes, tho easy enough. No CVT but the autos don't seem to go long - like 100-150, sometimes earlier. Maybe maint. Find a good one, manual, maybe. MX-5 which @TontoGoldstein reco'd - just realized he was asking you not ask in about Miata being a SubCompact Luck man Thanks! actually, I was hoping you'd chime in with more general car musings GenY mentioned the Venue, which I had not considered. I'm on the east coast at the moment so I haven't stopped by the Hyundai dealership back home yet, but I've been on the lookout for one in the wild. Surprisingly I haven't seen any the last few days in the DC area.  The real issue is, that's a very short OAL to meet. Seeing this will be a city car and not main use (low mile yearly) some of the stuff I banged up should be less critically viewed. Cali has some subsidies you could play. Otherwise if that's a hard number, you've got to go back a ways in model gens to meet it. Or very recently/current Mirage, Mini, or Spark is what I think your stuck with last 5 or so years. |
Tertium non datur
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Originally Posted By Wirebrush: CAFE standards are the reason they don't exist anymore. The government in their idiotic reasoning decided that fuel mileage should be based on the size of the vehicle (specifically the wheel ase and track width) and auto manufacturers soon realized that the only way to meet the requirements was to make the vehicles bigger. This is precisely why the Ford Ranger and Toyota Tacoma are as big as full sized pickups from the 1980s and why Corollas are larger than Camrys used to be etc. If you look at a new Mazda crossover you will see that's it's identical to the older version except that the fenders now extend to the width of the mirrors and the new Tacoma has fender flares on it's fender flares. Until something intelligent is done about the insane CAFE standards you will never see a subcompact anything that isn't electric and you will only see subcompact electrics if battery technology improves considerably. buyers don't want sub compacts in numbers that make it worth building them. The vehicles excel in dense urban driving. Larger hybrids have far taken over the fuel efficiency in the driving the majority of Americans actually do. The Smart car for example sold poorly peaking at just under 25,000 units a year. If it sold 250,000 units they would still be getting built. The consumer has spoken and they don't want subcompact cars because outside of dense urban driving they are senseless in 2026. a 2-door Toyota Yaris hatchback got 30 city 36 mpg hwy. A Prius of the time got ~50mpg. |
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Originally Posted By Alacrity: I don't ever recall German auto licensing to be tiered or requiring work through. Moto yes. But auto, the Grey license, that was some time before the 90s got you some extras - moto classed as well which Pink didn't and I think the trailering endorsement. (Yea, there's restrictions towing and in my experience actively enforced). Pink in the 90s you hit 18, tested and passed. Spendy and many hoops compared to UK tho. But Class 3 was the general license which got you auto privileges to some non-commercial weight. Not Moto tho. I'm not sure later, but at some point - I want to say 2000, when much changed, but that seems too logical, and not strongly recalled , EU wide classes came in. Numbers to letters and card issued like the States. Those weren't tiered auto side AFAIK either. The displacement bracketing - that traditionally worked out to low, mid and high trims that eventually heavily corresponded to 1.0L, 1.4L and 1.6 - and kinda 2.0 in the core mass market - A (city cars like Lupo and Up) B (what Brits coined Superminis and States SubCompact officially - Polo as it grew) and C segments (Family Hatch - Golf) was tax based. Some of this bracketing developed as mfgs responded to tax regimes outside Germany. Italian 2.0L wall influenced, and others national markets tiering had impact. It worked into both practical tax response tiering and became expectational. Similar to States where some segments you could expect a 6 cylinder, and V8 and some heavy or perf V8. 1.0L as I mentioned earlier was entry/efficiency play that was roughly 50 hp. 1.4L was mass market mid (roughly 75hp) and upper trims got 1.6K and 100 corresponding hp range. Above that was perf and luxe with 3.0L plus being relatively rare both due to taxation (acquisition, yearly road) and opcosts due to fuel taxes. In Germany in the 90s every 100cc cubic centimeter tier, rounded up. 1001cc was taxed at 1100 - which is why mfgs pushed to near rounded limits. Tax was enhanced by a rate based on emissions (cat or not at one point when Euro 1 came in then Euro 2 etc) and fuel. Unlike other national markets Germany banged diesel pretty hard annually but subsidized fuel. But unlike other markets, no acquisition. You paid VAT - I want so say 15% - and registration. Most were private ownership. Today most are company owned as business provided vehicles - which is something most Americans aren't familiar with. There's incentivizing now that didn't exist then. In the 90s you had stuff like the Cinq 500, Daihatsu Cuore - Top Speed made the 600cc Reliant famous. Sub 1.0L, but weren't useful on UK's 1980s M or A roads when legal limits were 70 mph but no shit 90 was treated as the wall. So there was effective tiering as well. If you did that often you needed a car that could. Economy tiers were heavily - I'm gonna say exclusively petrol. Could be wrong but small diesels sucked even in the 90s and cost more. So 90s B Seg, VW had somthing like a 1.0L, 1.4L, 1.6L structure by the end of the 90s IIRC. Early 90s you had the Mk2, which had been around for evah. Superminis were really still pretty Spartan in the 80s and that carried over. VW, least in UK, had an economy Fox (1.0L) and some mid range. 1.0L were very cheap, stripped cars that omitted much. HVAC was a knob and over or two, 4MT, no power anything including steering (maybe a brake booster. No radio outside UK, which I bet were importer adds. But still only the dash speaker - no doors. 1.0L were dismal rides as I mentioned. AC came in but wasn't offered in many Superminis. These were mass market segments. Even today B and C segment - tho more B and C CUVS - dominate Europes top sellers - and national markets tend still to buy National mfgs. Germans buy VAG, BMW, MB. French PSA and Renault. Italians FIAT. Tho less than prior. I don't think Polo got it until Mk3. Then rare and only on more powerful engines on top trims. It wasn't a 1.0L car option until much later. Don't recall ever seeing G-Lader G40 outside mags. No RHD anyway. Polo GTI came in or out. In the 90s it was forbidden fruit in the UK. But Ford had XR2i and then RS's, Griffen's Corsa GSi and the king Peugeot 106 GTi. B Seg 1.6 tended to be perf. C Seg GTI was more 2.0L. In Germany in the 90s you started seeing more interest in diesel as biodiesel subsidies and availability came on. But mostly it was petrol oriented. Even in the mid '10s when diesel was heavily pushed for CO2, Germany and UK trailed. Neither hit half the market. France and Spain it was like every fucking car (70%+ @ '10 then by '18 diesel had gotten the shaft) and you could tell in urban areas because it wasn't merely VW who was cheating emissions. But, yea, it was tax structure that manipulated demand and caused the displacement - and de facto power tiering. In Germany it wasn't license. But in markets and segments where cost warranted you got forced induction to create power, where displacement did elsewhere. Cost was much more a thing in Europe than the States. Tax dodges drive everything. The famous example is Ferrari 2.0 engines, later turbocharged, for the Italian market cos taxes. Like 40%. But proper V8s depsite 2.0L. So even Ferrari owners and Maranello were coerced. Curious if you recall specific examples maybe later that I'm missing since I just don't have anything to correspond to mfgs strategies working licensing tiers and ps limitt. Outside moto. That came in late 90s. Prior in UK you had L-Plate learners - like smoker TZR 125 choked to 12hp. LOL that lasted until a wire was cut or a power valve mod. Like Ebikes in States now sorta. A 30hp 125 looked like a 12hp at a cop stop. Germany was similar. Insurance was an effective gatekeeper. Total hp was a limit as well. But I only recall the lower classes around 1990. Originally Posted By Alacrity: Originally Posted By mursalot: Was doing some research a week ago and found this interesting document And this fun link This thread has great timing It's a shame how much is offered OCONUS that we'll never get to enjoy here. While living in Germany in the early 2000's I greatly admired the vw fox, lupo and polo cars. It was interesting that vw would have 3 or 4 engine options for each of those cars. That was part of their permit/drivers license process though where drivers have to work their way up through engine sizes. But auto, the Grey license, that was some time before the 90s got you some extras - moto classed as well which Pink didn't and I think the trailering endorsement. (Yea, there's restrictions towing and in my experience actively enforced). Pink in the 90s you hit 18, tested and passed. Spendy and many hoops compared to UK tho. But Class 3 was the general license which got you auto privileges to some non-commercial weight. Not Moto tho. I'm not sure later, but at some point - I want to say 2000, when much changed, but that seems too logical, and not strongly recalled , EU wide classes came in. Numbers to letters and card issued like the States. Those weren't tiered auto side AFAIK either. The displacement bracketing - that traditionally worked out to low, mid and high trims that eventually heavily corresponded to 1.0L, 1.4L and 1.6 - and kinda 2.0 in the core mass market - A (city cars like Lupo and Up) B (what Brits coined Superminis and States SubCompact officially - Polo as it grew) and C segments (Family Hatch - Golf) was tax based. Some of this bracketing developed as mfgs responded to tax regimes outside Germany. Italian 2.0L wall influenced, and others national markets tiering had impact. It worked into both practical tax response tiering and became expectational. Similar to States where some segments you could expect a 6 cylinder, and V8 and some heavy or perf V8. 1.0L as I mentioned earlier was entry/efficiency play that was roughly 50 hp. 1.4L was mass market mid (roughly 75hp) and upper trims got 1.6K and 100 corresponding hp range. Above that was perf and luxe with 3.0L plus being relatively rare both due to taxation (acquisition, yearly road) and opcosts due to fuel taxes. In Germany in the 90s every 100cc cubic centimeter tier, rounded up. 1001cc was taxed at 1100 - which is why mfgs pushed to near rounded limits. Tax was enhanced by a rate based on emissions (cat or not at one point when Euro 1 came in then Euro 2 etc) and fuel. Unlike other national markets Germany banged diesel pretty hard annually but subsidized fuel. But unlike other markets, no acquisition. You paid VAT - I want so say 15% - and registration. Most were private ownership. Today most are company owned as business provided vehicles - which is something most Americans aren't familiar with. There's incentivizing now that didn't exist then. In the 90s you had stuff like the Cinq 500, Daihatsu Cuore - Top Speed made the 600cc Reliant famous. Sub 1.0L, but weren't useful on UK's 1980s M or A roads when legal limits were 70 mph but no shit 90 was treated as the wall. So there was effective tiering as well. If you did that often you needed a car that could. Economy tiers were heavily - I'm gonna say exclusively petrol. Could be wrong but small diesels sucked even in the 90s and cost more. So 90s B Seg, VW had somthing like a 1.0L, 1.4L, 1.6L structure by the end of the 90s IIRC. Early 90s you had the Mk2, which had been around for evah. Superminis were really still pretty Spartan in the 80s and that carried over. VW, least in UK, had an economy Fox (1.0L) and some mid range. 1.0L were very cheap, stripped cars that omitted much. HVAC was a knob and over or two, 4MT, no power anything including steering (maybe a brake booster. No radio outside UK, which I bet were importer adds. But still only the dash speaker - no doors. 1.0L were dismal rides as I mentioned. AC came in but wasn't offered in many Superminis. These were mass market segments. Even today B and C segment - tho more B and C CUVS - dominate Europes top sellers - and national markets tend still to buy National mfgs. Germans buy VAG, BMW, MB. French PSA and Renault. Italians FIAT. Tho less than prior. I don't think Polo got it until Mk3. Then rare and only on more powerful engines on top trims. It wasn't a 1.0L car option until much later. Don't recall ever seeing G-Lader G40 outside mags. No RHD anyway. Polo GTI came in or out. In the 90s it was forbidden fruit in the UK. But Ford had XR2i and then RS's, Griffen's Corsa GSi and the king Peugeot 106 GTi. B Seg 1.6 tended to be perf. C Seg GTI was more 2.0L. In Germany in the 90s you started seeing more interest in diesel as biodiesel subsidies and availability came on. But mostly it was petrol oriented. Even in the mid '10s when diesel was heavily pushed for CO2, Germany and UK trailed. Neither hit half the market. France and Spain it was like every fucking car (70%+ @ '10 then by '18 diesel had gotten the shaft) and you could tell in urban areas because it wasn't merely VW who was cheating emissions. But, yea, it was tax structure that manipulated demand and caused the displacement - and de facto power tiering. In Germany it wasn't license. But in markets and segments where cost warranted you got forced induction to create power, where displacement did elsewhere. Cost was much more a thing in Europe than the States. Tax dodges drive everything. The famous example is Ferrari 2.0 engines, later turbocharged, for the Italian market cos taxes. Like 40%. But proper V8s depsite 2.0L. So even Ferrari owners and Maranello were coerced. Curious if you recall specific examples maybe later that I'm missing since I just don't have anything to correspond to mfgs strategies working licensing tiers and ps limitt. Outside moto. That came in late 90s. Prior in UK you had L-Plate learners - like smoker TZR 125 choked to 12hp. LOL that lasted until a wire was cut or a power valve mod. Like Ebikes in States now sorta. A 30hp 125 looked like a 12hp at a cop stop. Germany was similar. Insurance was an effective gatekeeper. Total hp was a limit as well. But I only recall the lower classes around 1990. Thank you for the clarification! For some reason I had it in my head that the motorcycle rules applied to the cars as well. It’s been over 20 years so again, thank you for the correction. |