Posted: 3/10/2025 1:02:23 PM EDT
Wowie kazowie!   Best video out there so far:  Robinson R88 Helicopter Review | Features, Price, & Performance Far beyond what I was expecting or predicting! My thoughts were an update to the 66 to better compete with the 505 by adding more room in the cabin, and a flat floor. I was not expecting something to directly compete with the H125 and H130! I guess RHC feels the R66 is already doing sufficiently well against the 505. It is still going to be a two-blade main rotor. Looking at all the spec's the R88 has greater space and payload than the H130, essentially equivalent to the original UH-1B (Bell 204), and nearly equivalent to the 205. Plus they are actively seeking an SPIFR certification. At $3.3M, it's the same price as either the H125 or H130. Like the R66 and 505, I suspect that when comparing similarly equipped ships, e.g. R88+options vs. H130+options, the R88 will come out many hundreds of thousands ahead. If the main rotor has an inertia approaching that of the Huey then that is going to shut down a lot of the usual Robbie-bashers. I guess we'll see in a year or three. |
|
Originally Posted By GlockPride: BUT, it’s still a ROBINSON… You betcha! The MOST popular, MOST produced civil helicopter make in the world! EVEN in the face of so much HATE. I couldn't find 2024 stat's, but in 2023 RHC sold 118 R66's and 163 R44's, while Bell sold a mere 77 505's. RHC is laughing all the way to the bank! I don't have flight hours to normalize a rate with. But comparing the civil fleet sizes, both RHC and Bell (Textron) claim approx. 13,000 ships flying around the world. In 2023 the NTSB CAROL database contains a total of 61 accidents involving all Robinson types (48 if you leave off the R22's), and 48 accidents involving Bell helicopters. It's not a slam dunk that Robbies are deathtraps. Even if you consider the type of flying, where the Bells are doing dangerous stuff like long line, utility, etc., the Robbies are doing dangerous stuff like training and keeping low time, low frequency private owners in the air. It's unfortunate that pre-SFAR 73 performance was so poor. And it's unfortunate that the Kiwis and the Brazilians are so very good at crashing them. But those issues are not at all representative of the modern day, U.S. Robinson environment. I've also noticed most of the hate and snobbery comes from those who have never once set foot in a piston powered helicopter. The R88 is best compared to a very modern version of a UH-1B. It's going to be a fantastic machine. Nobody would ever shit on a Huey. The blades are going to have to be very similar, the physics of available horsepower and aerodynamics will see to that. |
| 20-25 years ago I got to sit next to Tim Tucker (Chief Instructor at RHC) at a dinner the night before a safety seminar he was speaking at. Everybody was hitting him with questions about Robinson.....mainly what it was like to work for Frank (since he had been there since the early 80's.) The stories were wild, but he shared that they were working on concept for a 5-seater with more baggage space. He said Frank had finally accepted that piston engines were tapped out, turbocharging wouldn't work, so they were working with turbine companies for the right engine for it. He said they were just going to stretch a 44, but they were mainly using it as a test bed for a 7-8 seater. Holy crap, it took 20 years but it wasn't "vaporware", it was for real. Sad that Frank didn't live to see it, but the guy did a lot in his 90 years......helluva baseball player too!! |
|
Originally Posted By aa777888-2: It's unfortunate that pre-SFAR 73 performance was so poor. And it's unfortunate that the Kiwis and the Brazilians are so very good at crashing them. But those issues are not at all representative of the modern day, U.S. Robinson environment. Long before SFAR73, Robinson jacked up the insurance requirements for pilot looking to source insurance through the only reasonable provider out there, Pathfinder......which just happened to be Frank's brother-in-law. When the 44 came out in the early 90's, you had to have 200 hours of helicopter PIC, and I can't remember how much needed to be in the R44. You could only take one passenger up to a certain hourly requirement, then you could take 3. Safety school at RHC was a must as well. There were a bunch of requirements for instructors, and all kinds of other restrictions. They eased a few things, but amazingly when SFAR 73 came out in 1995, it looked a lot like Pathfinder's requirements. And that proves that Robinson definitely had a hand in pushing SFAR 73 through.......they wanted it. Frank never designed the R22 for flight instruction, crop dusting, cattle herding, etc; he designed it as a commuter but the market had other plans for it. The early 22's without tip weights were pretty dangerous from what I heard. I flew the next model, the HP and ours had the goofy governor system that would lower the collective as well as twist the throttle for you. That went away pretty quick and it just became the throttle one. I've flown the Alpha, Beta, and Beta II's (all before they went to the new blades)--that was 20+ years ago. I moved onto 206B's and L's. The power, ride, and comfort was nicer, but I missed the agility and tail rotor control of the Robinsons. Also, the Robinsons were a 1/10th of the maintenance. Not just because they just had less issues and less TBO's, it was because they were so much easier/faster to work on. In 2000 hrs of flying R22's and 44's, I had one issue where a venatherm stuck and I had to PL due to a high CHT, then occasional bad spark plugs or magneto contacts on start up.....all engine, not airframe. Lot more issue in the next 2000 hours in Bells with chip lights, bad generators, fuel controls, fuel value sticking, leaking hydraulics, and constantly doors popping open. Love them both, but as an owner or operator I'd take the Robinson if it could perform the same job. |
|
Originally Posted By delorean: Long before SFAR73, Robinson jacked up the insurance requirements for pilot looking to source insurance through the only reasonable provider out there, Pathfinder......which just happened to be Frank's brother-in-law. Originally Posted By delorean: Long before SFAR73, Robinson jacked up the insurance requirements for pilot looking to source insurance through the only reasonable provider out there, Pathfinder......which just happened to be Frank's brother-in-law. When the 44 came out in the early 90's, you had to have 200 hours of helicopter PIC, and I can't remember how much needed to be in the R44. You could only take one passenger up to a certain hourly requirement, then you could take 3. Safety school at RHC was a must as well. There were a bunch of requirements for instructors, and all kinds of other restrictions. They eased a few things, but amazingly when SFAR 73 came out in 1995, it looked a lot like Pathfinder's requirements. And that proves that Robinson definitely had a hand in pushing SFAR 73 through.......they wanted it. It's worth noting that among the more sophisticated and reputable underwriters the Safety Course no longer has the importance it once had. I asked my broker and underwriter if it would lower my rate if I went (I had a CPL-H before I became an owner) and they said "No". Frank never designed the R22 for flight instruction, crop dusting, cattle herding, etc; he designed it as a commuter but the market had other plans for it. The early 22's without tip weights were pretty dangerous from what I heard. I flew the next model, the HP and ours had the goofy governor system that would lower the collective as well as twist the throttle for you. That went away pretty quick and it just became the throttle one. I've flown the Alpha, Beta, and Beta II's (all before they went to the new blades)--that was 20+ years ago.  I moved onto 206B's and L's. The power, ride, and comfort was nicer, but I missed the agility and tail rotor control of the Robinsons. Also, the Robinsons were a 1/10th of the maintenance. Not just because they just had less issues and less TBO's, it was because they were so much easier/faster to work on. In 2000 hrs of flying R22's and 44's, I had one issue where a venatherm stuck and I had to PL due to a high CHT, then occasional bad spark plugs or magneto contacts on start up.....all engine, not airframe. Lot more issue in the next 2000 hours in Bells with chip lights, bad generators, fuel controls, fuel value sticking, leaking hydraulics, and constantly doors popping open. Love them both, but as an owner or operator I'd take the Robinson if it could perform the same job. I've never had the opportunity to fly the 206, but I do agree that in turbulence I would like to have something a bit more substantial. The 66 will perform the "same job", albeit it at a slightly slower airspeed in turbulence. On the other hand, when it's 20 gust 30, I'm very, very happy and comfortable with the tail rotor authority of the 44 or 66. I have a colleague who is comfortable in the 44 at gust 40! |
|
Originally Posted By aa777888-2: So, any of you Robbie-bashers/haters have any time in a Robinson product? Or are you all current or ex-MIL and moved right from the TH-xx to a turbine MIL ride and then to a civilian turbine seat? In true arfcom fashion I get both. I think it's the only piston chopper I've ever flown but I can't recall everything. Flies fine in my book. Attached File |
|
Originally Posted By aa777888-2: You betcha! The MOST popular, MOST produced civil helicopter make in the world! EVEN in the face of so much HATE. I couldn't find 2024 stat's, but in 2023 RHC sold 118 R66's and 163 R44's, while Bell sold a mere 77 505's. RHC is laughing all the way to the bank! I don't have flight hours to normalize a rate with. But comparing the civil fleet sizes, both RHC and Bell (Textron) claim approx. 13,000 ships flying around the world. In 2023 the NTSB CAROL database contains a total of 61 accidents involving all Robinson types (48 if you leave off the R22's), and 48 accidents involving Bell helicopters. It's not a slam dunk that Robbies are deathtraps. Even if you consider the type of flying, where the Bells are doing dangerous stuff like long line, utility, etc., the Robbies are doing dangerous stuff like training and keeping low time, low frequency private owners in the air. It's unfortunate that pre-SFAR 73 performance was so poor. And it's unfortunate that the Kiwis and the Brazilians are so very good at crashing them. But those issues are not at all representative of the modern day, U.S. Robinson environment. I've also noticed most of the hate and snobbery comes from those who have never once set foot in a piston powered helicopter. The R88 is best compared to a very modern version of a UH-1B. It's going to be a fantastic machine. Nobody would ever shit on a Huey. The blades are going to have to be very similar, the physics of available horsepower and aerodynamics will see to that. 20-something years ago when SFAR 73 was about to sunset, Frank was adamant that it be made permanent. It guarantees the factory school has a steady stream of business because they’re so popular. I asked a Robbie engineer once why they put so many fasteners on the fan scroll without inspection panels on top and his response was: “Why do you care, it’s just more billable hours for you?!” I’ve flown and wrenched on every Robinson type but the 88 and like them. I’ve taken my kids up in them and wouldn’t hesitate to do so in the future. |
|
Originally Posted By esa17: I asked a Robbie engineer once why they put so many fasteners on the fan scroll without inspection panels on top and his response was: “Why do you care, it’s just more billable hours for you?!” I still have several unique 5/32 box end wrenches that I collected off eBay and garage sales for that damn thing. That and the 20+ screws on the underbelly pan always seemed like overkill. |
|
Originally Posted By aa777888-2: So, any of you Robbie-bashers/haters have any time in a Robinson product? Or are you all current or ex-MIL and moved right from the TH-xx to a turbine MIL ride and then to a civilian turbine seat? My Brother owns a Robbie authorized service center. He could do sales but he wouldn't sell enough to get a decent discount compared to the big retailers. He currently has two R44's and four or five R22's. Within our group of idiots there is a huge selection of junk.... BO105 206L3 AS350 SA342 MH65 EC145 Every single one of these helicopter owners started in either an R22 or R44 owned by my Brother. Except for the Gazelle owner. He bought that as his first helicopter and my Brother taught him from zero. LOL.... All the guys still enjoy jumping into the R22 solo and boring holes in the sky. |