Posted: 2/29/2024 12:24:41 AM EDT
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Obviously because Dune 2 is about to be released. I have commented on it before. Overall, very happy with it. Again, Jessica comes off as so weak in this… Not at all my take on the character. In a woke world - why was she not stronger? Why is the Thufir actor such a turd? Some morbidly obese diabetic is not right for the character. WTF with Liet-Kynes? This is more of an Obi Wan, etc. type actor role. You want black for the role, give me Morgan Freeman or something. You blew the stronk female you already with Jessica, don’t F over the old wise guy with some 45 year old chick. I don’t give a crap about white, Asian, Persian, Sephardic, black, etc. but get the damn vibe and gender role right. There is some overall loss of tension with Jessica beloved concubine vs hidden agenda witch, the sheer near impossibility of a doctor being the traitor, etc. Don’t get me wrong, overall happy with it. But I hate the “off” portions. I really identified with Dune as a child, adolescent, and young adult. I was luck to be pretty smart. In aggregate, about 3 sd above the mean. While general intelligence and working memory about 2sd above the mean, and processing speed about 3sd above the mean, pattern recc was about 5. Which leads to some pretty strong predictive ability and “seeing” several alternate near “futures”- And reading the novel fascinated me as a child. Any taneishmwnt or offness in an adaptation rubs me wrong more than it should. |
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Originally Posted By ramairthree: Obviously because Dune 2 is about to be released. I have commented on it before. Overall, very happy with it. Again, Jessica comes off as so weak in this Not at all my take on the character. In a woke world - why was she not stronger? Why is the Thufir actor such a turd? Some morbidly obese diabetic is not right for the character. WTF with Liet-Kynes? This is more of an Obi Wan, etc. type actor role. You want black for the role, give me Morgan Freeman or something. You blew the stronk female you already with Jessica, don't F over the old wise guy with some 45 year old chick. I don't give a crap about white, Asian, Persian, Sephardic, black, etc. but get the damn vibe and gender role right. There is some overall loss of tension with Jessica beloved concubine vs hidden agenda witch, the sheer near impossibility of a doctor being the traitor, etc. Don't get me wrong, overall happy with it. But I hate the "off" portions. |
"My irritability keeps me alive and kicking" --Howard Devoto
"Didn't watch it. You don't rack up 100k posts by reading the articles before commenting on them, slow poke." --Aimless
"Didn't watch it. You don't rack up 100k posts by reading the articles before commenting on them, slow poke." --Aimless
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Originally Posted By ramairthree: Obviously because Dune 2 is about to be released. I have commented on it before. Overall, very happy with it. Again, Jessica comes off as so weak in this… Not at all my take on the character. In a woke world - why was she not stronger? Why is the Thufir actor such a turd? Some morbidly obese diabetic is not right for the character. WTF with Liet-Kynes? This is more of an Obi Wan, etc. type actor role. You want black for the role, give me Morgan Freeman or something. You blew the stronk female you already with Jessica, don’t F over the old wise guy with some 45 year old chick. I don’t give a crap about white, Asian, Persian, Sephardic, black, etc. but get the damn vibe and gender role right. There is some overall loss of tension with Jessica beloved concubine vs hidden agenda witch, the sheer near impossibility of a doctor being the traitor, etc. Don’t get me wrong, overall happy with it. But I hate the “off” portions. I really identified with Dune as a child, adolescent, and young adult. I was luck to be pretty smart. In aggregate, about 3 sd above the mean. While general intelligence and working memory about 2sd above the mean, and processing speed about 3sd above the mean, pattern recc was about 5. Which leads to some pretty strong predictive ability and “seeing” several alternate near “futures”- And reading the novel fascinated me as a child. Any taneishmwnt or offness in an adaptation rubs me wrong more than it should. Never understood the Atreides infatuation with Thufir... The dude fails them over, and over, and over, and over... If you read the books, its one failure after another... culminating in this one, and his eventual service to the Baron. I get the doctors betrayal... But Thufir was always a turd in the story... |
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Originally Posted By BDA: Never understood the Atreides infatuation with Thufir... The dude fails them over, and over, and over, and over... If you read the books, its one failure after another... culminating in this one, and his eventual service to the Baron. I get the doctors betrayal... But Thufir was always a turd in the story... Yes. But… Think of him as an NFL quarterback. That never makes it to the Super Bowl. He’s still am NFL quarterback. Not some dude that peaked in Hs football in bumfuck Texas. Give us Denzel, the fresh Prince, RD, jr., Ben Affleck, Tom selleck, or whatever in the role. Or some unknown that can convey high quality that was outclassed by even better, or whatever. The role/actor in this movie just conveys shitbag. We need someone that can convey I was a HS superstar, crushed it as D1, but as quarterback for the Cleveland browns I am up against the Steelers and Patriots and getting my shit pushed in by Bradshaw and Brady. |
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Originally Posted By ramairthree: Yes. But… Think of him as an NFL quarterback. That never makes it to the Super Bowl. He’s still am NFL quarterback. Not some dude that peaked in Hs football in bumfuck Texas. Give us Denzel, the fresh Prince, RD, jr., Ben Affleck, Tom selleck, or whatever in the role. Or some unknown that can convey high quality that was outclassed by even better, or whatever. The role/actor in this movie just conveys shitbag. We need someone that can convey I was a HS superstar, crushed it as D1, but as quarterback for the Cleveland browns I am up against the Steelers and Patriots and getting my shit pushed in by Bradshaw and Brady. Originally Posted By ramairthree: Originally Posted By BDA: Never understood the Atreides infatuation with Thufir... The dude fails them over, and over, and over, and over... If you read the books, its one failure after another... culminating in this one, and his eventual service to the Baron. I get the doctors betrayal... But Thufir was always a turd in the story... Yes. But… Think of him as an NFL quarterback. That never makes it to the Super Bowl. He’s still am NFL quarterback. Not some dude that peaked in Hs football in bumfuck Texas. Give us Denzel, the fresh Prince, RD, jr., Ben Affleck, Tom selleck, or whatever in the role. Or some unknown that can convey high quality that was outclassed by even better, or whatever. The role/actor in this movie just conveys shitbag. We need someone that can convey I was a HS superstar, crushed it as D1, but as quarterback for the Cleveland browns I am up against the Steelers and Patriots and getting my shit pushed in by Bradshaw and Brady. House Atreides was living in the shadow of the old Duke. Hawat was a remnant of that era, serving beyond his effectiveness. |
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I just caught a showing today. I loved the cinematography, the score, the battles, the details of writing, carvings, effects, etc. These two movies really brought the world alive in a manner that has not been done before. But… The whole Chani not beingKyne’s daughter , all anti offworlder, spiteful to Paul, etc. was really off putting. Not the love story, sacrifice, going along 100% knowing he is doing what he has to do for humanity instead of love, etc. just rubbed the story the wrong way. And we really lose something with the compressed timeline. Paul’s sister is born. Paul and Chani have a child together that is murdered as an infant in a raid. Off the top of my head, if the Atredies head for Dune in January 2024, they get betrayed/attacked around now, they spend spring and summer with the Fremen, his sister is born in the fall, Paul’s son in the winter, two years or so of fighting go by, he has his duel, makes the emperor his bitch, and the houses/guilds are like- Yep, we don’t get any spice unless we go along with this- so OK. Not some new straight to war thing. We all get Paul is not some glorious hero that will not be instilling the galaxy with love, harmony, and unicorn sparkles. Sure, he is going to be as brutal as a galactic Hitler. Not from madness, a list for power, or evilness. But because that’s how the human race survives. His mother was also painted on the evil side. At almost five hours for the two movies, slightly more than even the directors cut version of theminiseries, - I’m going to get flamed for this- because although the mini series is inferior in almost every other way- It did portray the novel much better to me. |
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Originally Posted By ramairthree: Obviously because Dune 2 is about to be released. I have commented on it before. Overall, very happy with it. Again, Jessica comes off as so weak in this… Not at all my take on the character. In a woke world - why was she not stronger? Why is the Thufir actor such a turd? Some morbidly obese diabetic is not right for the character. WTF with Liet-Kynes? This is more of an Obi Wan, etc. type actor role. You want black for the role, give me Morgan Freeman or something. You blew the stronk female you already with Jessica, don’t F over the old wise guy with some 45 year old chick. I don’t give a crap about white, Asian, Persian, Sephardic, black, etc. but get the damn vibe and gender role right. There is some overall loss of tension with Jessica beloved concubine vs hidden agenda witch, the sheer near impossibility of a doctor being the traitor, etc. Don’t get me wrong, overall happy with it. But I hate the “off” portions. I really identified with Dune as a child, adolescent, and young adult. I was luck to be pretty smart. In aggregate, about 3 sd above the mean. While general intelligence and working memory about 2sd above the mean, and processing speed about 3sd above the mean, pattern recc was about 5. Which leads to some pretty strong predictive ability and “seeing” several alternate near “futures”- And reading the novel fascinated me as a child. Any taneishmwnt or offness in an adaptation rubs me wrong more than it should. I thought it was pretty good. And yes, Liet-Kynes was obviously forced for the required check-box. |
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Originally Posted By ramairthree: I just caught a showing today. I loved the cinematography, the score, the battles, the details of writing, carvings, effects, etc. These two movies really brought the world alive in a manner that has not been done before. But… The whole Chani not beingKyne’s daughter , all anti offworlder, spiteful to Paul, etc. was really off putting. Not the love story, sacrifice, going along 100% knowing he is doing what he has to do for humanity instead of love, etc. just rubbed the story the wrong way. And we really lose something with the compressed timeline. Paul’s sister is born. Paul and Chani have a child together that is murdered as an infant in a raid. Off the top of my head, if the Atredies head for Dune in January 2024, they get betrayed/attacked around now, they spend spring and summer with the Fremen, his sister is born in the fall, Paul’s son in the winter, two years or so of fighting go by, he has his duel, makes the emperor his bitch, and the houses/guilds are like- Yep, we don’t get any spice unless we go along with this- so OK. Not some new straight to war thing. We all get Paul is not some glorious hero that will not be instilling the galaxy with love, harmony, and unicorn sparkles. Sure, he is going to be as brutal as a galactic Hitler. Not from madness, a list for power, or evilness. But because that’s how the human race survives. His mother was also painted on the evil side. At almost five hours for the two movies, slightly more than even the directors cut version of theminiseries, - I’m going to get flamed for this- because although the mini series is inferior in almost every other way- It did portray the novel much better to me. I don't understand the route they went with Chani in this movie. Were they trying to make her a "boss bitch"? Every other Fremen believes in Paul and follows him. She is in love with him, but still doesn't trust him? WTF? Why did they act like the Harkonnens got spice production back to normal? If that is so, why did the Emperor come to Dune? It's been a while since I read the book, so I could be wrong here, but I thought he came because things were too screwed up on Dune and the spice was not flowing. |
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Originally Posted By craig19: I don't understand the route they went with Chani in this movie. Were they trying to make her a "boss bitch"? Every other Fremen believes in Paul and follows him. She is in love with him, but still doesn't trust him? WTF? - I dont think it was the "boss bitch" thing. They made it clear that she and her faction weren't zealots like some of the others, so it makes sense for her to be a little skeptical... especially because she was so close to him and knew him from before he was their massiah. They also portrayed her as feeling betrayed. Why did they act like the Harkonnens got spice production back to normal? If that is so, why did the Emperor come to Dune? It's been a while since I read the book, so I could be wrong here, but I thought he came because things were too screwed up on Dune and the spice was not flowing. - When Paul sent his message, it verified that he had pretty damning evidenc that could have greatly shaken the Emperors position amoung the other houses (IE: he conspired to murder a prominant house and now there was unanticipated evidence). Thus, he came out to try to handle Paul as well as deal with the Harkonens (the parties to the conspiracy who screwed up). Then, while the Emperor was handling the Harkonens (the low hanging fruit) Paul ambushed them. I'm solely going off my impressions on the movie, not what was written into the books. |
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Originally Posted By craig19: I don't understand the route they went with Chani in this movie. Were they trying to make her a "boss bitch"? Every other Fremen believes in Paul and follows him. She is in love with him, but still doesn't trust him? WTF? Why did they act like the Harkonnens got spice production back to normal? If that is so, why did the Emperor come to Dune? It's been a while since I read the book, so I could be wrong here, but I thought he came because things were too screwed up on Dune and the spice was not flowing. There are some interviews with the director where he wanted characters to “represent” certain historical trends, not the characters they were in the book. So Stilgar becomes “fanatic religious people” Chani becomes “anti-colonialism” , “nonsectarian”, “antifacism” And, while I still don’t understand what went on the the mother in the first movie, in the second movie she becomes “evil colonialism personified” and “devious plotting religious figure/church” Or something along those lines. It kind of destroys some of the characterization and relationships and makes the movie worse in my opinion. |
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Originally Posted By ramairthree: I just caught a showing today. I loved the cinematography, the score, the battles, the details of writing, carvings, effects, etc. These two movies really brought the world alive in a manner that has not been done before. But The whole Chani not beingKyne's daughter , all anti offworlder, spiteful to Paul, etc. was really off putting. Not the love story, sacrifice, going along 100% knowing he is doing what he has to do for humanity instead of love, etc. just rubbed the story the wrong way. And we really lose something with the compressed timeline. Paul's sister is born. Paul and Chani have a child together that is murdered as an infant in a raid. Off the top of my head, if the Atredies head for Dune in January 2024, they get betrayed/attacked around now, they spend spring and summer with the Fremen, his sister is born in the fall, Paul's son in the winter, two years or so of fighting go by, he has his duel, makes the emperor his bitch, and the houses/guilds are like- Yep, we don't get any spice unless we go along with this- so OK. Not some new straight to war thing. We all get Paul is not some glorious hero that will not be instilling the galaxy with love, harmony, and unicorn sparkles. Sure, he is going to be as brutal as a galactic Hitler. Not from madness, a list for power, or evilness. But because that's how the human race survives. His mother was also painted on the evil side. At almost five hours for the two movies, slightly more than even the directors cut version of theminiseries, - I'm going to get flamed for this- because although the mini series is inferior in almost every other way- It did portray the novel much better to me. |
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Paul & Chani's kid was probably a casualty of....well, not really mattering too much (literally, he's there and "gone" pretty quick, and nobody really mentions him again)...and there only being so much screentime to go around. Somebody had to get cut (along with the Water Merchants, and Duncan's Fremen posse). Aliya....well, she's present, but doesn't do a whole lot in the first book. So they found a way to semi-combine her with Jessica's role. If they get around to making Dune Messiah or Children of Dune, she'll be a bigger part. |
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Originally Posted By Fulcrum-5: Paul & Chani's kid was probably a casualty of....well, not really mattering too much (literally, he's there and "gone" pretty quick, and nobody really mentions him again)...and there only being so much screentime to go around. Somebody had to get cut (along with the Water Merchants, and Duncan's Fremen posse). Aliya....well, she's present, but doesn't do a whole lot in the first book. So they found a way to semi-combine her with Jessica's role. If they get around to making Dune Messiah or Children of Dune, she'll be a bigger part. I’m going to disagree on the not mattering too much. He’s their child. He was slaughtered as an infant in a road. That’s some serious history and in it to win it they have together. He went from 15 year old showing up on Dune, with an assassination attempt, on the run after his father murdered, knife fight for his life, guerilla war against the Harkonnen, finds the love of his life, gets married, becomes a father, big brother to essentially a reverend mother, his kid slaughtered, faces off in a duel with another near peer chosen one, makes the emperor his bitch, etc., over like two years. Never was there the moody teenager aspect to his wife. A hammer of the novel is how he went from 15 to emperor that saw some shit over two years with his wife riding shotgun solid on his six. |
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I've read the novel several times since 1980, seen the 1984 movie and both mini series. I finished Dune again last month after seeing Dune 2. The novel is not a unified story that flows from beginning to end. It's far too ambitious and grand for that. The appendices(especially Irulan's analysis of how the Bene Gesseret completely failed to anticipate Paul and then ignored him for two years as Arrakis-the most important planet in the Imperium-blew up under the fulfillment of their own Missionaria Protectiva) are integral to the story. The whole backstory on the ecology of Dune, Kynes' father and the centuries-long dream of Green Arrakis is an appendix. The byzantine politics of the Imperium and the machinations of the Bene Gesserit require a huge amount of exposition that is simply impossible in a movie. I thought Villeneuve did an incredible job of conveying 34,000 years of world-building. To me, Chani was simply a love interest in the novel, and her being Kynes' daughter completely slipped my mind and still has little actual import to the plot. Jessica wasn't portrayed as evil...as a Reverend Mother she(like all of them-and Paul, eventually) was monstrous in her Terrible Purpose. Chalamet was excellent at portraying Paul's personality changing as he submitted to the awful Golden Path. The movie showed Paul's journey not as a triumph of the Hero when he faces his fears, but the Hero facing his horror and choosing it...hoping it's the least awful choice. Alia was used as an expository method for Jessica's plans, and to illustrate the power of the Water of Life. Feyd Rautha was the real revelation in the movie. Herbert's POV on him was a little confusing and bland; and the significance of Lady Margot's visit was a bit vague. Villeneuve brought them both into sharp focus.It was a great palate cleanser after the abortion of Sting's capering and mustache twirling. That made the final knife fight a sufficiently weighty climax. Austin Butler and Lia Seydoux hit all their scenes out of the park. |
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Originally Posted By feudist: I've read the novel several times since 1980, seen the 1984 movie and both mini series. I finished Dune again last month after seeing Dune 2. The novel is not a unified story that flows from beginning to end. It's far too ambitious and grand for that. The appendices(especially Irulan's analysis of how the Bene Gesseret completely failed to anticipate Paul and then ignored him for two years as Arrakis-the most important planet in the Imperium-blew up under the fulfillment of their own Missionaria Protectiva) are integral to the story. The whole backstory on the ecology of Dune, Kynes' father and the centuries-long dream of Green Arrakis is an appendix. The byzantine politics of the Imperium and the machinations of the Bene Gesserit require a huge amount of exposition that is simply impossible in a movie. I thought Villeneuve did an incredible job of conveying 34,000 years of world-building. To me, Chani was simply a love interest in the novel, and her being Kynes' daughter completely slipped my mind and still has little actual import to the plot. Jessica wasn't portrayed as evil...as a Reverend Mother she(like all of them-and Paul, eventually) was monstrous in her Terrible Purpose. Chalamet was excellent at portraying Paul's personality changing as he submitted to the awful Golden Path. The movie showed Paul's journey not as a triumph of the Hero when he faces his fears, but the Hero facing his horror and choosing it...hoping it's the least awful choice. Alia was used as an expository method for Jessica's plans, and to illustrate the power of the Water of Life. Feyd Rautha was the real revelation in the movie. Herbert's POV on him was a little confusing and bland; and the significance of Lady Margot's visit was a bit vague. Villeneuve brought them both into sharp focus.It was a great palate cleanser after the abortion of Sting's capering and mustache twirling. That made the final knife fight a sufficiently weighty climax. Austin Butler and Lia Seydoux hit all their scenes out of the park. Agree about those two hitting it out of the park. The harkonnens overall were 2D jokes in Dune ‘84. But I remember it being clear in The novel Feyd was not some random prince, but a peer both in breeding, potential, fight training, etc. I do think the relunctant shift of Paul was notable, but the current movies really underplayed his abilities and difference from Joe regular guy. This is a man that will go blind but just glance at the future and walk around “seeing” like he still has vision is sort of the least what he does. Jessica was weird in the movie. In art one she seemed weak and whiny. In part two twisted and 2d evil. In the novel I sort of got the vibe the BG only “think” they are controlling the plans within plan, there is something above that driving things. She’s a literal superhuman ninja priestess who fell in love with a man so good and honorable she gave him a son against all plans. I’m going to have to hard disagree about Kynes. Paul has a lot of Chirons in his life. Taught duty and honor by his father, fighting by… It goes on. Kynes was sort of a handoff/merlin/wise foreign king who was a link between Paul’s world and the Fremen. Whose very daughter he would marry. Grandfather to the god-emperor. The gender swap, familial line loss, etc. Really rubs me the wrong way. Just like turning Chani into a moody teenage girlfriend - Not the key married into the ruling Fremen family, mother of child slaughtered, ride or die wife, etc. Anyway, as I have noted the films were of magnificent production quality- Just some aspects/shifts of characters really soured me. |
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It’s almost like Villeneuve didn’t “get” the Bene Gesserit in the first movie, then tried to overcompensate in the second. Initially, Jessica is a whiny crybaby who snivels her way through almost every scene in the first movie. Very unlike a member of an order that literally seeks to maintain strict control over every aspect of their behavior and physiology. In the book, this is not the case. Jessica defies the BG by having Paul. Not out of her belief that she can birth the kwitsasz haderach, but because Leto, who she loves (in spite of being just a concubine), wants a male heir. She also becomes a reverend mother for the Fremen, and is (knowingly) exposed to the water of life while pregnant. She does not become some Machiavellian Vulcan after this- in fact she consoles Chani when Paul marries Irulan (“history will call us wives”). Liet-Kynes doesn’t bother me too much, but it kills an excellent storyline/subplot, albeit a subtle one. Stretching the guerilla campaign from multiple years to a couple months was stupid, and weakened the overall story significantly. Eliminating Alia makes no sense. Turning Chani into the anti-colonialist virtue-signaller is a huge detriment to the story. Ignoring that she dueled and killed all the people who wanted to challenge Paul’s rise is a significant miss, especially given that she and Jamis were involved. I love the portrayal of Vlad Harkonnen in the movies. He’s perfect. That was a home run, IMO. Bardem as Stilgar? *shrug* |
Not fly enough to be halal....
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Originally Posted By Cyberpunk1981: However I do think Dune should be made into a real series like "A Game of Thrones" was and given a proper treatment. If they did that I think they can go much further into the universe and depth without cutting so much out. This is the only way to remain faithful to the books, otherwise compromises are necessary. Dune has been considered the "unfilmable" book. I think this one came pretty close. |
| Bump for the third movie. And since the original book storyline ended with the second movie, and that's all I ever read, IDK what's coming next |
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General education should not be mere job training, but training in how to be fully human.
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