Posted: 8/15/2025 1:53:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Scoobysmak][Edited]
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I will modify the title if the thread if is suited best to stay here....I did a search for "social security" and everything that popped up was in GD. I don't mind GD but I want serious discussion and opinions. Too many people there just toss out stuff because that topic has been crushed 87 bazzillion times there. I would like to keep this discussion specifically how to fix SS but understand sometimes it is considered attached to other social programs like "welfare." Welfare needs to be fixed as well but this program to me is specifically "socialism in nutshell" just like our tax system...should be a flat tax if you ask me but that is an entirely different topic for a later date if anyone cares to pursue it. I came here because most people that care about investments actually pay attention to SS and have more knowledge of the history and good/bad parts of it. The bad part of coming here might be that people here actually care about their retirement and are more one sided that people should have personal responsibility and the Gov shouldn't be involved. As a note, I fall into the "leave the Gov out of it" camp but leaving it open for discussion. I also feel I am lacking on what funds the program and who if anyone screwed the funding part up, if I am wrong feel free to point me in the right direction (links greatly appreciated). The only reason I could see that people want to keep the program is so that your life is safer and not have to worry about some stranger trying to rob you because they failed to plan out their life. On that aspect, my take is that if I am attacked I have the right to self defense and plenty of items on hand at my disposal to do it. For nearly a century the Gov has been "taxing" working people to pay out social security benefits. Some people that have been "taxed" all their lives and promised a payout from that tax feel they are owed this money. I don't disagree per say but "owed" is a rather strong word Vs the Gov being nice enough not to change the rules so you do get paid. I have no problem with people getting this money out of my paycheck since the laws are written that way, enjoy it and buy as much ammo as you can. I do have a problem with the program should have never existed to start with and now either the benefits people are "owed" will go down or they will have to tax the working class that much harder. It is obvious that the Gov can't be trusted to care about its citizens and let the nation debt go to the moon and beyond. Why should we trust them to help plan my retirement? (For those that care how it is calculated this section is for you, otherwise go to SKIP TO HERE) The current system take the highest 35 years of your indexed salary (every year adjusted for inflation) and divided by 420 (this is 35 yrs x 12 months). This gives you a value they call AIME (Average Indexed Monthly Earnings). Then the socialism starts and they take the AIME and run it though a PIA (Primary Insurance Amount) calculator. This calculator uses what they call "Bend Points". These bend points are adjusted every year, think to inflation but not sure. In 2025 the bend points are 1,226 for the first bend point and 7,391 for the second bend point. I will link to the bend points chart later. I will show three examples of how this PIA number is calculated. The first example is a person that had an AIME of $9,808 (this would be someone who averaged $117,696 a year for 35 years indexed for inflation) The PIA calculation works like this: You get 90% of the first $1,226, you get 32% of the difference between 7,391-1,226 = 6,165, and only 15% of the remaining amount. So for this individual you the calculated SS amount is $1,103.40 + $1,972.80 + $362.55 = $3,438.75 a month at full retirement age. This person will receive 13% of the money they made while working. The second example is some that had an AIME of $4,904 (this is an average salary of $58,848 indexed) First $1,226 get 90% = $1,103.40 They did not have a high enough salary to hit the second bend point so you take the AIME and subtract the 1226 = $3,678 This would give a SS check of $2,280.36, receives 47% of what they would have made while working The third example: AIME of $1,226 (this is an average salary of $14,712 a year indexed) They would receive $1,103.40 a month, receives 90% of what they made while working The first example made 2x what the second example did and 8x what the third example did but only receives a check 1.5x the amount the second example gets and just over 3x what the third example gets. Wealth redistribution program. Bend Points chart There are some other things involved to calculate this such as COLA once you pass retirement age but this is the basics and will get you a base number to go off of. (SKIP TO HERE if you are not worried how SS is calculated) To just scrap the program is BS, to tax people out of existence is BS and the way we are headed. EVERYONE needs to take a "haircut" so our kids and grand kids don't get screwed more than they already are. My proposal is as follows: This would start in 2032, 6+ years to get crap inline so it would be a smooth transition and to prepare people for the changes If you are 62 or older in 2032 the system would basically stay the same as it is today but no longer attached to inflation In 2032 the following would happen: 1. There would be a 3.3% reduction in benefits for each year you are under the age of 62 in 2032 (people born in 1999 would be the last SS recipients). There would be a 3% reduction in OSDIA taxes (only for the employee) per year. All employee SS taxes would be done in 34 years. In 40 years ALL OSDIA taxes would stop. 2. Everyone under age 62 in 2032 would be required to set up or have a retirement account. This retirement account will not be able to be accessed for any reason before age 55 except imminent death of the account holder, aka uncurable cancer. Divorce cannot access this account, but with married couples both parties will be held to the same standard. Starting at age 30, the account must have or maintain a balance that proves they can sustain bare minimum life at age 67 without working, use the poverty level number. This calculation will be taking the account balance and using the 4% withdraw rate. So the individual poverty rate in 2025 is $15,650. You will need an account balance of roughly 400k at age 67. At age 30 you need to have $10,000 (might need to adjust for inflation) in the account. The account will need to show a 10.5% increase each year from a baseline of that $10,000 initial investment (this number is the same for everyone for their age). If you do not maintain the balance the Gov will take up to 25% of your check and put it there, this is the only access the Gov has is to put money in the account. You will be charged a 5% fee to do this, so only 20% of the money taken will reach your account. If the market crashes more than 7% in one year then that year or years will be exempted from this. You will still be held to your initial numbers after the market returns. After age 67 the Gov no longer cares what your balance is, before that you had to maintain the numbers but could access after age 55. If you are legally married and the significant other does not work then the breadwinner will have to support both accounts, having one account but double the money doesn't count. On the flip side 401k's and other investment assets are no longer divided in court, only physical assets you acquired together like the house, cars, etc. In 40 years all SS crap would be over and stop supporting people that don't care about the future. Maybe some of them would start to care once they realized they have to actually put out some effort to survive and not live off the rest of us. |
RIP CeCe and FCSD you will be missed
Mike_314..If there was communism in the desert, there would soon be a shortage of sand.
87% shit posting - 13% I am caught in a rule change
RSM 20/21 RSL 4522: we will shit on your pillow.. (3613 note)
Mike_314..If there was communism in the desert, there would soon be a shortage of sand.
87% shit posting - 13% I am caught in a rule change
RSM 20/21 RSL 4522: we will shit on your pillow.. (3613 note)
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Your proposal sounds reasonable, but I don’t know if it would pass constitutional muster. Possibly it would, the ACA did. I find one thing funny about SS. The most diehard SS supporter would not voluntarily purchase more if it were available. I haven’t found the first person that would do that. Apparently they realize it is such a poor system that it has to be forced on people. |
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Originally Posted By grendelbane: Your proposal sounds reasonable, but I don’t know if it would pass constitutional muster. Possibly it would, the ACA did. I find one thing funny about SS. The most diehard SS supporter would not voluntarily purchase more if it were available. I haven’t found the first person that would do that. Apparently they realize it is such a poor system that it has to be forced on people. Thanks We have to pass it to see what is in it.....  |
RIP CeCe and FCSD you will be missed
Mike_314..If there was communism in the desert, there would soon be a shortage of sand.
87% shit posting - 13% I am caught in a rule change
RSM 20/21 RSL 4522: we will shit on your pillow.. (3613 note)
Mike_314..If there was communism in the desert, there would soon be a shortage of sand.
87% shit posting - 13% I am caught in a rule change
RSM 20/21 RSL 4522: we will shit on your pillow.. (3613 note)
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Originally Posted By Scoobysmak: This would start in 2032, 6+ years to get crap inline so it would be a smooth transition and to prepare people for the changes That’s going to be a problem as it allows the population to get whipped up into a frenzy and vote out whoever passed it and vote in whoever promises to keep the present system. Maybe I’m just cynical but I suspect they’d burn this country to the ground just to keep the payments going another month. |
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Originally Posted By Procat: That’s going to be a problem as it allows the population to get whipped up into a frenzy and vote out whoever passed it and vote in whoever promises to keep the present system. Maybe I’m just cynical but I suspect they’d burn this country to the ground just to keep the payments going another month. Most likely you are correct. If people could get educated before the media starts throwing out BS everywhere it might gain more support for it. 
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RIP CeCe and FCSD you will be missed
Mike_314..If there was communism in the desert, there would soon be a shortage of sand.
87% shit posting - 13% I am caught in a rule change
RSM 20/21 RSL 4522: we will shit on your pillow.. (3613 note)
Mike_314..If there was communism in the desert, there would soon be a shortage of sand.
87% shit posting - 13% I am caught in a rule change
RSM 20/21 RSL 4522: we will shit on your pillow.. (3613 note)
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I liked the semi privatization idea George W Bush was pushing. I never read up on it to see if it was a good idea or not and how it would be implemented but when the usual suspects started screeching, I figured it was probably a decent idea. Unfortunately, if we did away with social security we would shift the burden over to the welfare system because so many people truly rely on the system. Even people who planned well for retirement still depend on it as a critical part of their planning. In my case, I have never planned on it. Realistically I’ll probably get something from it but it’s never been a single part of my retirement planning so anything I get from it is a bonus. It’s amazing to see how many people love and depend on such a shitty program. That’s why it will never go away. It’ll change for sure but it’s not going away. |
"It behooves every man to remember that the work of the critic is of altogether secondary importance, and that, in the end, progress is accomplished by the man who does things."
Theodore Roosevelt
Theodore Roosevelt
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. It’s amazing to see how many people love and depend on such a shitty program. That’s why it will never go away. It’ll change for sure but it’s not going away. Sadly, I agree. Maybe 2 or 3 more generations of seeing 401ks outperform SS will change enough minds. Maybe not. |
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Originally Posted By ColtRifle: I liked the semi privatization idea George W Bush was pushing. I never read up on it to see if it was a good idea or not and how it would be implemented but when the usual suspects started screeching, I figured it was probably a decent idea. Unfortunately, if we did away with social security we would shift the burden over to the welfare system because so many people truly rely on the system. Even people who planned well for retirement still depend on it as a critical part of their planning. In my case, I have never planned on it. Realistically I’ll probably get something from it but it’s never been a single part of my retirement planning so anything I get from it is a bonus. It’s amazing to see how many people love and depend on such a shitty program. That’s why it will never go away. It’ll change for sure but it’s not going away. I probably should have read up on his plan but didn't. The more it is talked about replacing SS and having a good plan in place the odds of getting something done increases but like mentioned....the talking heads that scream DOOM will get the loudest voice....just how the media works.  I at least hope when SS either gets cut by 25% or the taxes go up people have a bigger distain for Gov controlling your money....its obvious they can't do it. I see them first removing the income cap and probably creating a third bend point of like .1% for anything above the current limit. The "means testing" to me is complete horse crap....meaning anyone who planned for their future gets screwed....but then the entire system is horse crap so there you have it. |
RIP CeCe and FCSD you will be missed
Mike_314..If there was communism in the desert, there would soon be a shortage of sand.
87% shit posting - 13% I am caught in a rule change
RSM 20/21 RSL 4522: we will shit on your pillow.. (3613 note)
Mike_314..If there was communism in the desert, there would soon be a shortage of sand.
87% shit posting - 13% I am caught in a rule change
RSM 20/21 RSL 4522: we will shit on your pillow.. (3613 note)
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Originally Posted By Scoobysmak: I probably should have read up on his plan but didn't. The more it is talked about replacing SS and having a good plan in place the odds of getting something done increases but like mentioned....the talking heads that scream DOOM will get the loudest voice....just how the media works. I at least hope when SS either gets cut by 25% or the taxes go up people have a bigger distain for Gov controlling your money....its obvious they can't do it. I see them first removing the income cap and probably creating a third bend point of like .1% for anything above the current limit. The "means testing" to me is complete horse crap....meaning anyone who planned for their future gets screwed....but then the entire system is horse crap so there you have it. I may be wrong but I think we are likely to see a combination of things to “fix” social security….just like last time. I bet we see an increase in the age you can claim it, a payroll tax % increase, an increase in the earnings cap without a substantial increase in future benefits for those who will be paying more, and a recalculation of benefits which will be worded in such a way that makes it appear it’s not a decrease but in reality is a decrease for future benefits. I bet people who are currently receiving benefits will not be cut. I think means testing is highly unlikely. Not saying it’s impossible but just very unlikely. That’s my conclusion after reading a lot about the topic. But, that’s just my opinion and who knows what really will happen. |
"It behooves every man to remember that the work of the critic is of altogether secondary importance, and that, in the end, progress is accomplished by the man who does things."
Theodore Roosevelt
Theodore Roosevelt
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Originally Posted By grendelbane: Sadly, I agree. Maybe 2 or 3 more generations of seeing 401ks outperform SS will change enough minds. Maybe not. Yeah. Imagine if our money had been invested in the market vs social security. Unfortunately, MOST people SUCK at planning for their financial future. I hate to say it but I fear a mandatory program is needed because the average person sucks so bad at financial planning/saving/investing. I don’t like it but the reality is, America is a first world country. Many people, when talking about people not saving for retirement, say things like “Fuck them. They didn’t plan so they can starve”. In principle, I agree. But the simple reality is, Americans will not accept old people starving in the streets. Maybe we should….but we will not. If we eliminated social security, we would shift the financial burden to welfare. We are going to pay one way or another so at least we should try to have the most efficient solution possible and those of us who are capable of actually planning, saving, and investing for our future will continue to do so and will continue to have good retirements without depending on the “system”. I don’t have the solution but it’s not going away. It’ll change for sure but it’s not going away. |
"It behooves every man to remember that the work of the critic is of altogether secondary importance, and that, in the end, progress is accomplished by the man who does things."
Theodore Roosevelt
Theodore Roosevelt
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Originally Posted By grendelbane: Sadly, I agree. Maybe 2 or 3 more generations of seeing 401ks outperform SS will change enough minds. Maybe not. I don’t know about that. Sample size of one and all but in my life I know tons of people who have saved nothing. In addition the seniors I’ve heard screech the loudest about getting their SS and cost of living increases have all generally had decent portfolios. Social security is their walking around money so they don’t have to touch their investments for day to day expenses. |
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Originally Posted By Procat: I don’t know about that. Sample size of one and all but in my life I know tons of people who have saved nothing. In addition the seniors I’ve heard screech the loudest about getting their SS and cost of living increases have all generally had decent portfolios. Social security is their walking around money so they don’t have to touch their investments for day to day expenses. To be fair, those same people paid in for years and, while they did financially plan well, they also expect something in return from social security just as they were promised. Still amazes me to see how many of them have made it a critical (or at least an important) part of their retirement plan vs just bonus money. I also know and am related to multiple people who years ago were telling everyone “social security won’t be there for me”. The weird part is, they didn’t plan to get by without social security. Now they are at social security age and are living on social security alone. These same people are politically conservative people. But, as I have learned over the years, liberals aren’t the only stupid people out there. There are lots of conservative people out there who are stupid as well. In my case, I know what it is supposed to pay me in the future and what age that I should collect to be best for me…..but if social security vanished tomorrow, my retirement plans are still on track and won’t change. The only thing social security will do for me (if I get anything from it) will allow me to travel even more than I currently am planning. If I get nothing from it, I’ll still be traveling and enjoying myself in retirement. |
"It behooves every man to remember that the work of the critic is of altogether secondary importance, and that, in the end, progress is accomplished by the man who does things."
Theodore Roosevelt
Theodore Roosevelt
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Originally Posted By ColtRifle: To be fair, those same people paid in for years and, while they did financially plan well, they also expect something in return from social security just as they were promised. Still amazes me to see how many of them have made it a critical (or at least an important) part of their retirement plan vs just bonus money. I also know and am related to multiple people who years ago were telling everyone “social security won’t be there for me”. The weird part is, they didn’t plan to get by without social security. Now they are at social security age and are living on social security alone. These same people are politically conservative people. But, as I have learned over the years, liberals aren’t the only stupid people out there. There are lots of conservative people out there who are stupid as well. In my case, I know what it is supposed to pay me in the future and what age that I should collect to be best for me…..but if social security vanished tomorrow, my retirement plans are still on track and won’t change. The only thing social security will do for me (if I get anything from it) will allow me to travel even more than I currently am planning. If I get nothing from it, I’ll still be traveling and enjoying myself in retirement. Originally Posted By ColtRifle: Originally Posted By Procat: I don’t know about that. Sample size of one and all but in my life I know tons of people who have saved nothing. In addition the seniors I’ve heard screech the loudest about getting their SS and cost of living increases have all generally had decent portfolios. Social security is their walking around money so they don’t have to touch their investments for day to day expenses. To be fair, those same people paid in for years and, while they did financially plan well, they also expect something in return from social security just as they were promised. Still amazes me to see how many of them have made it a critical (or at least an important) part of their retirement plan vs just bonus money. I also know and am related to multiple people who years ago were telling everyone “social security won’t be there for me”. The weird part is, they didn’t plan to get by without social security. Now they are at social security age and are living on social security alone. These same people are politically conservative people. But, as I have learned over the years, liberals aren’t the only stupid people out there. There are lots of conservative people out there who are stupid as well. In my case, I know what it is supposed to pay me in the future and what age that I should collect to be best for me…..but if social security vanished tomorrow, my retirement plans are still on track and won’t change. The only thing social security will do for me (if I get anything from it) will allow me to travel even more than I currently am planning. If I get nothing from it, I’ll still be traveling and enjoying myself in retirement. Unless other things totally fall apart I am pretty much similar to this. The first 2-4 years I could change as I wouldn't take as much out of my "nest egg" and the growth would more than cover any SS that I wouldn't get. My current retirement account makes more interest than I bring home every year (not yet what I make though). On top of that I have a military retirement I will get a couple years before age 60. I am currently single with no kids. I have over a decade to go before I can collect SS. Currently plan on working until age 63, probably work only part of the year and max out my 401k to take advantage of the extra roughly 4k I can stash in it (at least under the current rules). Then at this point I won't get hit with the increased IRMAA cost at age 65 unless I want to do some Roth conversions (my choice to pay it, not the Governments). I would hold off taking SS until after any Roth conversions.....why add to the pain. Once I hit age 75 I hope to be under IRMAA limits but doubt I will make it that long.... |
RIP CeCe and FCSD you will be missed
Mike_314..If there was communism in the desert, there would soon be a shortage of sand.
87% shit posting - 13% I am caught in a rule change
RSM 20/21 RSL 4522: we will shit on your pillow.. (3613 note)
Mike_314..If there was communism in the desert, there would soon be a shortage of sand.
87% shit posting - 13% I am caught in a rule change
RSM 20/21 RSL 4522: we will shit on your pillow.. (3613 note)
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Originally Posted By ColtRifle: To be fair, those same people paid in for years and, while they did financially plan well, they also expect something in return from social security just as they were promised. Still amazes me to see how many of them have made it a critical (or at least an important) part of their retirement plan vs just bonus money. I also know and am related to multiple people who years ago were telling everyone “social security won’t be there for me”. The weird part is, they didn’t plan to get by without social security. Now they are at social security age and are living on social security alone. These same people are politically conservative people. But, as I have learned over the years, liberals aren’t the only stupid people out there. There are lots of conservative people out there who are stupid as well. In my case, I know what it is supposed to pay me in the future and what age that I should collect to be best for me…..but if social security vanished tomorrow, my retirement plans are still on track and won’t change. The only thing social security will do for me (if I get anything from it) will allow me to travel even more than I currently am planning. If I get nothing from it, I’ll still be traveling and enjoying myself in retirement. Agree on all points, my post was just an observation. |
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My biggest concern with your plan is: does it generate enough revenue to keep paying benefits to existing SS recipients? It really "screws" people my age. I've already paid into SS and would continue to do so for a while, while also being expected to fund a gov't sponsored savings plan. And then on the back end only receiving vastly diluted SS payments. The sandwich generation. Very young people would do fine, and old people would get mostly the same amount of benefits. "Fair" is a subjective term, but it doesn't seem "fair" to people like me in their mid-40s. I do have IRA/401k but I don't think I'd want to cash those out and move them into the government control. |
Atypical Millennial
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Originally Posted By djkest: My biggest concern with your plan is: does it generate enough revenue to keep paying benefits to existing SS recipients? It really "screws" people my age. I've already paid into SS and would continue to do so for a while, while also being expected to fund a gov't sponsored savings plan. And then on the back end only receiving vastly diluted SS payments. The sandwich generation. Very young people would do fine, and old people would get mostly the same amount of benefits. "Fair" is a subjective term, but it doesn't seem "fair" to people like me in their mid-40s. I do have IRA/401k but I don't think I'd want to cash those out and move them into the government control. First question, my guess would be yes as the employers part never gets cut until SS is pretty much gone. I left the employers part untouched until it is totally gone to prevent from age discrimination over the years. Not being attached to inflation is where in 20 years the SS check is half of what they would be if attached to inflation, based on the past 20 years of COLA increases. To your concern, you would get a slice of SS and also will have what is taken out of your check for SS payments reduced to put extra funding into your private account. The longer you are from retirement age the more time you have, of course the inverse of the less you will receive. I am not much older than you. We don't have as much time to invest but we won't have to pull as much as since we will still get some payments from SS doing it this way. I am not going to lie and say I would wish I was born 50 years later on this plan and not pay any SS taxes at all but....this is the reason this thread is here because SS and trusting the Gov is for the birds. I was told as a kid SS won't be there for me so plan ahead. A black eye is better than being executed. The government will NOT have any control of your 401k type account, this is all you. Okay I will put it this way, every year just like taxes you have to send in a form from your private investment account(s) to prove you have saved enough for retirement. If you meet/or don't meet the age/amount requirements the government will leave your paycheck alone or add the 25% dumb tax to it the following year. Maybe prorate it make it a 10% stupid tax the first year, 15% stupid tax the second year, 20% stupid tax the third year, and max it at 25% from then on if you don't maintain your account properly (this all has to be consecutive years). The Gov only needs to know where to put the money when they take it from your check. Is the idea perfect, nope, could someone do better probably. I just tossed an idea and maybe someone has a better one. |
RIP CeCe and FCSD you will be missed
Mike_314..If there was communism in the desert, there would soon be a shortage of sand.
87% shit posting - 13% I am caught in a rule change
RSM 20/21 RSL 4522: we will shit on your pillow.. (3613 note)
Mike_314..If there was communism in the desert, there would soon be a shortage of sand.
87% shit posting - 13% I am caught in a rule change
RSM 20/21 RSL 4522: we will shit on your pillow.. (3613 note)