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Posted: 9/15/2024 8:21:04 PM EDT
In two weeks, I plan to install electrical conduit in a shed in a remote location. The source of power will be solar DC converted to AC. I'll never be inspected for code but of course would like to do a competent installation.
I wired another shed before it had interior walls in it. I drilled through studs and ran Romex. It was simple circuitry and a learning experience that turned out well. This next shed has interior walls, hence the choice of conduit. I have the outlets and fixtures laid out and I am developing my parts list. The two pictures below illustrate my questions. These are hand fitted mockups for discussion. Also, I will be out in the middle of nowhere and do not want to get involved with heating and bending custom pieces. I want to just plug-and-play. With the handy box screwed to the wall, the knockouts do not line up with the conduit if the conduit was tacked to the wall. The 'offset' piece of conduit seems to solve that, but it takes the offset plus a coupling on each side of the box (in and out). That's 4 pieces. On the left side of the picture, I put conduit straight into the box. At the box, the conduit would stand proud of the wall. It is flexible enough to be tacked every 16" until the next box. Does it matter? TLDR: Can I run conduit straight into the handy box, or do I need to do the offset thing?  
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TX, USA
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Posted: 9/15/2024 9:28:14 PM EDT
[#1]
You can get stand- off straps / mineral-lite name of some .
If you using Gray PVC , can use a heat gun, heat the pipe and make long radius bends, or buy some Use the 4” square boxes, those 1 gang are a pain-in-the-ass to pull wire |
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Posted: 9/15/2024 10:39:03 PM EDT
[#2]
I have to agree those single gang boxes make it harder to pull wire. Also make sure to get the correct type of wire. I know you said that you won't get inspected, but it is against code to run romex in conduit.
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OR, USA
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Posted: 9/15/2024 10:43:16 PM EDT
[#3]
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Posted: 9/15/2024 10:45:47 PM EDT
[#4]
dont forget conduit fill.
# of wires per guage in a conduit |
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Posted: 9/15/2024 11:10:15 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mrrick: dont forget conduit fill. # of wires per guage in a conduit Really handy app out there for that too. I think it's called conduit fill calculator |
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Posted: 9/15/2024 11:37:46 PM EDT
[#6]
You are going to hate those tiny boxes. Just use 4S and a raised industrial cover. Bond ground to any metal box.
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Posted: 9/16/2024 8:36:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Lexington]
[#7]
I am looking into the conduit fill charts. I want to use three 12 ga. wires in 1/2" conduit. If that won't fly, then I will use 14 ga. The energy usage will be modest: a few LED lights, phones, computers, and tool batteries. Maybe a space heater on occasion.
I don't plan on actually pulling the wire. The runs will be mostly short (8'-10') and straight. I figure I can pre-load the conduit and then attach it to the boxes, shifting the wire at each end as needed for installation and the short pull through the box. I'm going to give it a go. I had to look up 4S. Roomy. Good idea. Back to the question of the offset piece. Is it required in a "by-the-book" application? I read a synopsis of code and it stated that the conduit must be supported and not overly prone to flexing. Conduit straight to the box w/ no offset should do that, right? |
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Posted: 9/16/2024 9:22:31 AM EDT
[#8]
I preferred to use EMT conduit and bend the offsets.
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Posted: 9/16/2024 10:18:30 AM EDT
[#9]
 Attached FileUse clamps like these. I would run EMT, but I can bend that stuff in my sleep. Not hard to learn and you could probably find a bender cheap at a pawn shop. 30-40$ new. 12g works and will max out 1/2”. I never tried pre loading conduit probably because it would take longer and I was on the clock. |
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IA, USA
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Posted: 9/16/2024 10:27:28 AM EDT
[#10]
I think I'd do the offset - its going to get flexy between the boxes
I used these offsets when I put in 1/2" emt to get it back to flush with the wall https://www.menards.com/main/electrical/conduit-conduit-fittings-raceways/conduit-fittings-supports/sigma-proconnex-trade-emt-to-box-offset-set-screw-connector/44006/p-1444430890323-c-9538.htm?exp=false 
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Posted: 9/16/2024 11:02:06 AM EDT
[#11]
Not a pro either. I prefer EMT too and it is what I use mostly. I am the jerk that bends 1/2” EMT with a 3/4” bender. I bought a 3/4” bender and was being loaned a 1/2” when I did my garage. The guy in fact had a 3/4” bender not a 1/2” bender.
Now if your shed is is going to be moisture prone I’d go with the grey plastic. It’s very easy to work. I pull a ground wire no matter what so it really doesn’t matter. I never use the EMT in lieu of a ground. Permitable last I knew but bad practice as things can get loose over time breaking your ground connection. I forget the exact max gap on conduit brackets but iirc a full stick needs at least 3-4 by my personal tastes which exceed requirements. I like one near each end, within a foot for support and one or two spaced in the middle. I think you can literally get away with two as long as they are within 36” of the ends. That may depend on whether your box is anchored to the wall like normal or stubbed out mid air on EMT next to a piece of equipment like a furnace. |
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Posted: 9/16/2024 11:59:04 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SteelonSteel: Not a pro either. I prefer EMT too and it is what I use mostly. I am the jerk that bends 1/2” EMT with a 3/4” bender. I bought a 3/4” bender and was being loaned a 1/2” when I did my garage. The guy in fact had a 3/4” bender not a 1/2” bender. Now if your shed is is going to be moisture prone I’d go with the grey plastic. It’s very easy to work. I pull a ground wire no matter what so it really doesn’t matter. I never use the EMT in lieu of a ground. Permitable last I knew but bad practice as things can get loose over time breaking your ground connection. I forget the exact max gap on conduit brackets but iirc a full stick needs at least 3-4 by my personal tastes which exceed requirements. I like one near each end, within a foot for support and one or two spaced in the middle. I think you can literally get away with two as long as they are within 36” of the ends. That may depend on whether your box is anchored to the wall like normal or stubbed out mid air on EMT next to a piece of equipment like a furnace. Hell man you know more than some apprentices. |
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Posted: 9/16/2024 5:31:07 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DVCER: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/857/IMG_0995_png-3323880.JPG Use clamps like these. I would run EMT, but I can bend that stuff in my sleep. Not hard to learn and you could probably find a bender cheap at a pawn shop. 30-40$ new. 12g works and will max out 1/2”. I never tried pre loading conduit probably because it would take longer and I was on the clock. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DVCER: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/857/IMG_0995_png-3323880.JPG Use clamps like these. I would run EMT, but I can bend that stuff in my sleep. Not hard to learn and you could probably find a bender cheap at a pawn shop. 30-40$ new. 12g works and will max out 1/2”. I never tried pre loading conduit probably because it would take longer and I was on the clock. I've seen those clamps at Home Depot. I got an old EMT bender at a garage sale for $10, but I still don't want that headache. I think I can plug-and-play faster with PVC. Thanks for the confirmation of 12 ga. and 1/2" tube. Originally Posted By stewie97: I think I'd do the offset - its going to get flexy between the boxes I used these offsets when I put in 1/2" emt to get it back to flush with the wall https://www.menards.com/main/electrical/conduit-conduit-fittings-raceways/conduit-fittings-supports/sigma-proconnex-trade-emt-to-box-offset-set-screw-connector/44006/p-1444430890323-c-9538.htm?exp=false https://cdn.menardc.com/main/items/media/GAMPA001/ProductXLarge/44006.jpg That looks like the ticket. 3/8" offset. The shorter threads will give me more room in the single box if I go that route. Is it OK (according to the book) to mix metal with PVC? |
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Posted: 9/16/2024 5:34:48 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SteelonSteel: I forget the exact max gap on conduit brackets but iirc a full stick needs at least 3-4 by my personal tastes which exceed requirements. I like one near each end, within a foot for support and one or two spaced in the middle. I think you can literally get away with two as long as they are within 36” of the ends. That may depend on whether your box is anchored to the wall like normal or stubbed out mid air on EMT next to a piece of equipment like a furnace. I was going to tack one on every stud (16"), or maybe every other if it looks like overkill. The box will be screwed into a stud. |
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Posted: 9/16/2024 5:36:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Jerret_S]
[#15]
Your recpetacle wont fit if you go that route and if it somehow does good luck.
Use the double gang box or whatever they are called with a larger faceplate that goes to a single receptacle. |
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Posted: 9/16/2024 5:53:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SteelonSteel]
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DVCER: Hell man you know more than some apprentices. Zero official training......my brother is that guy, did commercial buildings like hospitals and such. I’d help him a little on his side jobs. It only takes one time of him having to go back and redo your work to never make that particular mistake again. He was very protective of his rep. Inspectors would see him on a job and look at the panel and an outlet and put an inspection sticker on it. They knew his work was better than ok. When it came time to build my garage I spec’d it all out, did my research, run the plan by him, make a couple changes based on suggestions. Most of his suggestions were telling me I was over building, over the necessary wire size etc. The only 14 ga in my garage is the LED lights. Even then they could have fit on one run but they’re on three runs.  Phase 1 electrical was lights and outlets. That was romex in the walls. Next year phase 2 was 240v for the metal lathe, a compressor and several welding outlets. That was in EMT surface mounted in case I wanted to change machine locations. I let him do the panel and some connections in the welding circuits. (Bug connectors, insulating taped then the regular tape) . He came back to pop the 240v breakers in. My brother eventually moved to the distribution side and rebuilt transformer stations before getting a Homer Simpson job in sector 7G. Between him and my lineman next door neighbor I had a good amount of help and guidance. I know not much but I can read the NEC and ask questions!  If I knew the right guy I be a helper again but I’m to old to do crawl spaces. 
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Posted: 9/16/2024 6:02:18 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lexington: I was going to tack one on every stud (16"), or maybe every other if it looks like overkill. The box will be screwed into a stud. Yea that is crazy over kill. My contractor that built my shell for the garage was aghast at how many roofing screws I used in my ceiling of metal roofing. I was like you, overkill is good kill. 3-4 feet between is plenty of support. If your walls are unfinished and just bare studs and open bays, consider running the conduit up high and dropping vertical conduits down on a stud. That way you or someone else is not inclined to stick shovels and rakes behind your conduit like a rack. That’s a bit of a no no. Even worse with romex in the open studs and people that do that.  |
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Posted: 9/16/2024 9:45:56 PM EDT
[#18]
How about using smurf tube? I don't know the real name of it. I used in my garage quite few years back.
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 9/16/2024 10:08:20 PM EDT
[#19]
I watched a YouTube video and learned to bend metal conduit. I’m No pro but simple bends are not difficult at all once you do it a few times.
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Posted: 9/17/2024 3:32:35 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ef4life: I watched a YouTube video and learned to bend metal conduit. I’m No pro but simple bends are not difficult at all once you do it a few times. I will be in the wilderness and I have a number of projects to complete in addition to this one. That's why I want to plug-and-play as much as possible. Thanks to everyone for entertaining my crazy ideas and giving advice. I learned something. I am going to use PVC conduit and the PVC offset at the entry and exit of each box. I have 8 boxes and this is no big deal for parts count, and it certainly dresses the installation better. I can get a receptacle into a single-wide box if I trim the threaded pieces and use the top knockout. Since I need only 16 male adaptors, I can do the trimming at home and take them with me. (Well, plus 6 for 3 switches.) Or I can use the two-wide box and not do custom work. Common sense may yet prevail. 
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Posted: 9/17/2024 3:39:43 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SteelonSteel: Yea that is crazy over kill. My contractor that built my shell for the garage was aghast at how many roofing screws I used in my ceiling of metal roofing. I was like you, overkill is good kill. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SteelonSteel: Originally Posted By Lexington: I was going to tack one on every stud (16"), or maybe every other if it looks like overkill. The box will be screwed into a stud. Yea that is crazy over kill. My contractor that built my shell for the garage was aghast at how many roofing screws I used in my ceiling of metal roofing. I was like you, overkill is good kill. I'm a former engineer. Anything worth designing is worth over-designing! The Anal Retentive Carpenter was not available. We'll have to settle for the chef.  Anal Retentive Chef - Saturday Night Live |
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MS, USA
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Posted: 9/17/2024 4:52:30 PM EDT
[#22]
I’d go with pvc conduit for your project and stock up on extra fittings, even some you don’t think you’ll need since you will be in a remote location. Buy extra everything and just return what’s left. No need to be one or two inexpensive pieces away from completing a project, been there done that.
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Posted: 9/17/2024 9:47:01 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By chumpmiester: I have to agree those single gang boxes make it harder to pull wire. Also make sure to get the correct type of wire. I know you said that you won't get inspected, but it is against code to run romex in conduit. This, you'll need 3 rolls, wire will depend on the circuit. You can do a blank cover or 2 2 gang outlets or a single. Bend the conduit or buy the offset. Proud if you dont care about that. |
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Posted: 9/18/2024 12:34:19 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hobs98: This, you'll need 3 rolls, wire will depend on the circuit. You can do a blank cover or 2 2 gang outlets or a single. Bend the conduit or buy the offset. Proud if you dont care about that. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hobs98: Originally Posted By chumpmiester: I have to agree those single gang boxes make it harder to pull wire. Also make sure to get the correct type of wire. I know you said that you won't get inspected, but it is against code to run romex in conduit. This, you'll need 3 rolls, wire will depend on the circuit. You can do a blank cover or 2 2 gang outlets or a single. Bend the conduit or buy the offset. Proud if you dont care about that. I am not going to pull wire in the usual method. These will be short runs and I will preload the conduit with the wire, then install. shifting the end of the wire to either end of the conduit as needed. Famous last words, perhaps, but do-able. I would do the same with double-wide boxes. |
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Posted: 9/18/2024 11:27:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Lexington]
[#25]
Is it required that all the conduit connections be cemented together? I will do it for the offset + coupling assemblies to make them rigid, but would like to press fit the rest of the runs. Is this allowed in a proper installation?
ETA: Online references seem to indicate that joints must be cemented. I'll go with that. |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 9/19/2024 9:24:22 PM EDT
[#26]
Yes, cement all joints. Skip the offsets and buy Arlington quick latch conduit hangers (click-its). It will line up that way.
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Posted: 9/22/2024 6:56:19 PM EDT
[#27]
If you get in a pinch you can use a torch or heat gun on the pvc conduit and it will bend.
Just roll it back and forth with your foot while sweeping up and down the pipe. Try on a test piece as you will burn the first one. I think you will find it more work to “preload” the pipe with wire than to push it through later. You can find 12ga thhn / thwn black,white,green all rolled together ready to pull. Simpull is one brand. |
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Posted: 9/23/2024 11:06:37 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Handydave: If you get in a pinch you can use a torch or heat gun on the pvc conduit and it will bend. Just roll it back and forth with your foot while sweeping up and down the pipe. Try on a test piece as you will burn the first one. I think you will find it more work to “preload” the pipe with wire than to push it through later. You can find 12ga thhn / thwn black,white,green all rolled together ready to pull. Simpull is one brand. This get a fish tape or the flexible fiberglass pull pullsticks.both are handy things to have. Dont forget the wire lube. What I meant with the 3 separate wires verses Romex. NEC and fire code won't allow you to run Romex in conduit. |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 9/23/2024 11:29:59 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lexington: I am not going to pull wire in the usual method. These will be short runs and I will preload the conduit with the wire, then install. shifting the end of the wire to either end of the conduit as needed. Famous last words, perhaps, but do-able. I would do the same with double-wide boxes.  Attached File |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 8:45:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Lexington]
[#30]
"Yes, cement all joints. Skip the offsets and buy Arlington quick latch conduit hangers (click-its). It will line up that way."
Cemented joints. Check. The Arlington hangers stand off the wall and I want as flush an installation as I can get. Will use standard clips. "You can find 12ga thhn / thwn black, white, green all rolled together ready to pull. Simpull is one brand." I will look into Simpull. "This get a fish tape or the flexible fiberglass pull pullsticks.both are handy things to have. Dont forget the wire lube. What I meant with the 3 separate wires verses Romex. NEC and fire code won't allow you to run Romex in conduit." Wire lube. Didn't know about that. Will get some. I will not be running Romex in the conduit. Will run three separate wires. The fish tape is growing on me. I was hoping not to buy a tool that I will never use again. "George C. Scott eye roll" I know. Did I mention I will be out in the middle of nowhere and the project is not large? I will try a little "field expediency" and will figure out how good or bad the idea was in short order. And if I have a bad idea, I can work through it because I am not wiring a whole house. I am often alone out there and have done quite a bit of "Egyptian engineering" with levers, fulcrums, inclines, cubits, etc. I have even found a third hand via my teeth or knee at times. The job is: 1 breaker box, 8 outlets, three switches, 3 light fixtures, and about 100' of conduit and wire. This starts Saturday. Will have no comms for 8 days. Will report back for your entertainment. |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 9/24/2024 1:10:37 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hobs98: This get a fish tape or the flexible fiberglass pull pullsticks.both are handy things to have. Dont forget the wire lube. What I meant with the 3 separate wires verses Romex. NEC and fire code won't allow you to run Romex in conduit. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hobs98: Originally Posted By Handydave: If you get in a pinch you can use a torch or heat gun on the pvc conduit and it will bend. Just roll it back and forth with your foot while sweeping up and down the pipe. Try on a test piece as you will burn the first one. I think you will find it more work to "preload" the pipe with wire than to push it through later. You can find 12ga thhn / thwn black,white,green all rolled together ready to pull. Simpull is one brand. This get a fish tape or the flexible fiberglass pull pullsticks.both are handy things to have. Dont forget the wire lube. What I meant with the 3 separate wires verses Romex. NEC and fire code won't allow you to run Romex in conduit. Where do people come up with this crap? Not true at all. Romex is allowed inside conduit when installed indoors. It's done every day when using EMT to sleeve romex down to boxes on concrete or block walls. I did it myself on Saturday, and I am a licensed master electrician in 3 states. |
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Posted: 9/26/2024 10:04:35 PM EDT
[#32]
OK, for $17 a 20' roll of fish tape just made the list.
 Last chance for advice. Should I use 12 ga. or 14 ga. wire in 1/2" conduit? Leaning 12 ga. for capacity, but maybe 14 ga. pulls easier. I will run only three wires. The biggest load on one circuit might be two resistive space heaters, 800W max each, 6.7A each. The other loads, split across two circuits, will be phone and computer chargers, tool battery chargers, and low wattage LED lights. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 9/28/2024 9:08:06 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lexington: OK, for $17 a 20' roll of fish tape just made the list. Last chance for advice. Should I use 12 ga. or 14 ga. wire in 1/2" conduit? Leaning 12 ga. for capacity, but maybe 14 ga. pulls easier. I will run only three wires. The biggest load on one circuit might be two resistive space heaters, 800W max each, 6.7A each. The other loads, split across two circuits, will be phone and computer chargers, tool battery chargers, and low wattage LED lights. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 9/29/2024 9:18:48 PM EDT
[#34]
Those two space heaters might be a continuous load at 6.7 amps x 2 x 1.25 = 16.75 amps. A 20 amp breaker is rated at 16 amps continuous load. That's pretty close so you might want to split them on separate circuits.
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Posted: 10/11/2024 8:56:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Lexington]
[#35]
Report
Here are some examples of the work. I didn't complete it because the breaker box was a bit more involved and I saved it for later, plus I had other projects to complete. I plan to trench from one small building to this building for power. The small building gets ample sunshine for solar panels. The charge controller, inverter, and batteries will be inside as well. I had to take off the interior paneling (installed by prior owner) to make some provisions for mounting the breaker box and getting my connections from outside. That's for another day. As for the conduit, I think the offsets are overkill, drive up the parts count, and create unnecessary work. I ran conduit along the two long side walls and did the offsets at the outlets. I changed that method at the light switch and the work was faster and cleaner in appearance with no apparent downside. In some instances, I wished I had tighter radius 90 deg. bends, but I wasn't prepared to heat and bend conduit, so c'est la vie. Pushing 12 ga. cabled wire through the conduit was very easy. I had no idea this stuff existed until I got to the store. I was prepared to buy three separate spools of wires. I only fished the one section with three 90 deg bends. I now have confidence that I can complete the project like a piece of cake.   
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Posted: 10/11/2024 2:29:53 PM EDT
[#36]
It’ll work fine. Do bond the ground in the metal boxes. Everyone sells the green 10-32 ground screws that fit in the back of the box.
You can simply bare a section of the incoming green and wrap it or do a pigtail off the grounds. |
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Posted: 10/11/2024 3:18:07 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DVCER: It’ll work fine. Do bond the ground in the metal boxes. Everyone sells the green 10-32 ground screws that fit in the back of the box. You can simply bare a section of the incoming green and wrap it or do a pigtail off the grounds. With PVC conduit, what does the ground in the boxes actually conduct to? I was going to run a ground from the main breaker box to a rod outside, or to the metal floor frame of the shed. All of the grounds would tie to that point. |
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Posted: 10/11/2024 4:27:49 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lexington: With PVC conduit, what does the ground in the boxes actually conduct to? I was going to run a ground from the main breaker box to a rod outside, or to the metal floor frame of the shed. All of the grounds would tie to that point. Right, but the metal boxes make a very good conductor. If somehow a hot wire comes in contact with the side of an ungrounded metal box and you somehow are grounded you will get lit up touching that metal. If the box is grounded, the breaker simply trips. Yeah, most devices carry the ground from the attached ground wire to the yoke of the device thus grounding the metal box from the yoke screws. I never did much residential electrical, but pretty sure it is code to ground them. |
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Posted: 10/11/2024 4:29:00 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DVCER: I never did much residential electrical, but pretty sure it is code to ground them. Then it shall be done. Thanks. |
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