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Posted: 9/24/2024 9:32:38 PM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: Yeah the first quad packed setup, but I was all exited cause patriot...with Aegis brains. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: ESSM is real. It's been tested, but like the other dude said, probably not a quad pack option forthcoming. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 9/24/2024 9:34:09 PM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: No, as a matter of law they bar exit by those who have been conscripted, in practice its men of conscription age. You really don’t want to get into Russian military recruiting practices, they are brutal and can include rape. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Originally Posted By Citadel-SC: Every article says Russia was planning to do so or no decision was made, all date to 2022. Are you really suggesting that Russia bars all men aged to 60 from leaving the country? No, as a matter of law they bar exit by those who have been conscripted, in practice its men of conscription age. You really don’t want to get into Russian military recruiting practices, they are brutal and can include rape. So not even remotely analogous to Ukraine’s current policy. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 9:36:20 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Projections of nuclear first strikes on China apparently still showed 75 missiles getting through. No one wants a nuclear war. That's why the credible deterrence has worked and would continue to work. Obfuscation of this simple fact is only done by people selling shit we don't really need, and only believed by those with zero clue. The problem is that the clueless are in charge and making the buying decisions. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 9:36:42 PM EST
[#4]
No analogy? You’re telling me that JDAM-ER hasn’t been used? Tell me more? You can’t just count munitions 1:1. Western artillery is several times more effective than Russian artillery. And longer ranged. Go on Telegram if you want to see how Russians die. They are still assaulting without support.
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Posted: 9/24/2024 9:37:50 PM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Missilegeek: No one wants a nuclear war. That's why the credible deterrence has worked and would continue to work. Obfuscation of this simple fact is only done by people selling shit we don't really need, and only believed by those with zero clue. The problem is that the clueless are in charge and making the buying decisions. The idea of deterring with nuclear weapons only was discredited in 1956. If you move the threshold for escalation too high the enemy can do whatever they want under it. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 9:38:22 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Citadel-SC: So not even remotely analogous to Ukraine’s current policy. Close enough. And I’ve never heard of Ukrainians raping an 18 year old until he signs an indefinite contract. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 9:46:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: Missilegeek]
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: The idea of deterring with nuclear weapons only was discredited in 1956. If you move the threshold for escalation too high the enemy can do whatever they want under it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: No one wants a nuclear war. That's why the credible deterrence has worked and would continue to work. Obfuscation of this simple fact is only done by people selling shit we don't really need, and only believed by those with zero clue. The problem is that the clueless are in charge and making the buying decisions. The idea of deterring with nuclear weapons only was discredited in 1956. If you move the threshold for escalation too high the enemy can do whatever they want under it. That's why I said this Originally Posted By Missilegeek: When it comes to deterring China, a coherent forward basing strategy, backed by a credible Triad is all we need. Forward basing is a significant conventional force. Enough for a decent sized bloody battle, but not enough to fight a giant conventional war. When you bring enough shit to fight a conventional war, you just signal weakness and unwillingness to use your strategic deterrent when the situation merits it. You can also clearly articulate conditions of nuclear force. This approach worked for many decades. Preparing for a massive conventional war between strategic powers, a situation that has never been seen, is totally unproven and illogical. The current leadership ignorantly asks Raytheon how fast they can build missiles to prepare for some giant conventional missile war, that shouldn't even be an option. It most certainly shouldn't be the thing being openly discussed every single day, all day and virtually the only thing they are preparing for. I cannot emphasize enough how extremely stupid this administration and the military leadership is for promoting and moving down the path they are on. It is so stupid and dangerous that it makes the invasion of Iraq look like the Inchon landing by comparison. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 10:00:38 PM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Citadel-SC: That’s it? You fell for the human wave trope? Russia has an anywhere from 5-1 to 10-1 firepower advantage depending on the front. Russia lobes several hundred glide bombs into Ukrainian lines weekly, the Ukrainians have no answer and no analogy. The Ukrainians insist on defending every inch and often reinforce failure. The Russian strategy is to fix the Ukrainians in place, which they seem all to willing to abide, and then degrade and attrit them with fires. The Russians also have adopted small unit tactics quite successfully and don’t maneuver in masse. Studies have shown around 12% of casualties are from small arms. Just be cause the Ukrainians are on the defense does not mean less casualties by default and history shows such often. You guys saw the Wagner prisoner units get eaten up and projected that on to the whole war. It’s a simple deduction. But hey I’ll just believe western sources that basically claim the Russian army has been destroyed 3 times over and according to the Ukrainians has lost more equipment then it ever had. Yet here we are…just as predicted earlier in the thread. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Citadel-SC: Originally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Originally Posted By Citadel-SC: Explain in detail how you think that to be true. Why Ukrainian casualties would be lower? They fight in the defense and are less wasteful of lives. Russians are attacking like Zhukov, as if casualties don’t matter. In a way they don’t, a guy has to die for his commander to keep his wages. That’s it? You fell for the human wave trope? Russia has an anywhere from 5-1 to 10-1 firepower advantage depending on the front. Russia lobes several hundred glide bombs into Ukrainian lines weekly, the Ukrainians have no answer and no analogy. The Ukrainians insist on defending every inch and often reinforce failure. The Russian strategy is to fix the Ukrainians in place, which they seem all to willing to abide, and then degrade and attrit them with fires. The Russians also have adopted small unit tactics quite successfully and don’t maneuver in masse. Studies have shown around 12% of casualties are from small arms. Just be cause the Ukrainians are on the defense does not mean less casualties by default and history shows such often. You guys saw the Wagner prisoner units get eaten up and projected that on to the whole war. It’s a simple deduction. But hey I’ll just believe western sources that basically claim the Russian army has been destroyed 3 times over and according to the Ukrainians has lost more equipment then it ever had. Yet here we are…just as predicted earlier in the thread. You’ve swallowed so much Putin propaganda, you’ve lost the ability to use common sense, critical thinking, or deductive reasoning. We’ve all seen hundreds of meat-wave attacks shot to pieces, but you no doubt believe those are Fake. Btw, it’s not unusual at all, to lose the bulk of your original Army in a big war. (Multiple times) That’s why Training and Conscription is a thing. You’d know this already if you enjoyed consuming history as much as spoon-fed propaganda. Btw, your whole argument is retarded as well as sad, because this isn’t going to be decided by “amount of casualties”. It will be decided by Political will and Money. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 10:03:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: CarmelBytheSea]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Projections of nuclear first strikes on China apparently still showed 75 missiles getting through. https://www.reuters.com/world/chinas-intensifying-nuclear-armed-submarine-patrols-add-complexity-us-allies-2023-04-04/  
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Posted: 9/24/2024 10:08:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: CarmelBytheSea]
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Missilegeek: I guess we should get to work being less corrupt and more efficient than the CCP. It's understandable that we don't want to compete with slave labor, but there's a significant delta between that and what is happening. Paying $60,000+ per switchblade, and $3m per cruise missile is not the answer. "More air defense" at $3m to $10m per shot is also not the answer. When it comes to deterring China, a coherent forward basing strategy, backed by a credible Triad is all we need. We don't need piles of expensive missiles, because getting into a giant missile fight with China is the most fucking retarded strategy and planning that one could conceive. Only complete fucking idiots think it is acceptable. "I have an idea guys, let's try to beat the enemy at their own game, on their home turf!!!" -Carl Von Clusterfuck Is US leadership under Trump or anyone else willing to employ nukes? To deter, an enemy has to believe you’re willing to do How do we get from Sep 2024 to Beijing having no faith in its JL-3s and believing Washington DC is itching to go nuclear? Even Israel seems reticent to use its nukes to prevent Iran from acquiring a nuke. India and Pakistan seem to be the only countries, maybe North Korea, to actually do the needful and they still haven’t FO’d yet. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 9/24/2024 10:10:49 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BillofRights: You’ve swallowed so much Putin propaganda, you’ve lost the ability to use common sense, critical thinking, or deductive reasoning. We’ve all seen hundreds of meat-wave attacks shot to pieces, but you no doubt believe those are Fake. Btw, it’s not unusual at all, to lose the bulk of your original Army in a big war. (Multiple times) That’s why Training and Conscription is a thing. You’d know this already if you enjoyed consuming history as much as spoon-fed propaganda. Btw, your whole argument is retarded as well as sad, because this isn’t going to be decided by “amount of casualties”. It will be decided by Political will and Money. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BillofRights: Originally Posted By Citadel-SC: Originally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Originally Posted By Citadel-SC: Explain in detail how you think that to be true. Why Ukrainian casualties would be lower? They fight in the defense and are less wasteful of lives. Russians are attacking like Zhukov, as if casualties don’t matter. In a way they don’t, a guy has to die for his commander to keep his wages. That’s it? You fell for the human wave trope? Russia has an anywhere from 5-1 to 10-1 firepower advantage depending on the front. Russia lobes several hundred glide bombs into Ukrainian lines weekly, the Ukrainians have no answer and no analogy. The Ukrainians insist on defending every inch and often reinforce failure. The Russian strategy is to fix the Ukrainians in place, which they seem all to willing to abide, and then degrade and attrit them with fires. The Russians also have adopted small unit tactics quite successfully and don’t maneuver in masse. Studies have shown around 12% of casualties are from small arms. Just be cause the Ukrainians are on the defense does not mean less casualties by default and history shows such often. You guys saw the Wagner prisoner units get eaten up and projected that on to the whole war. It’s a simple deduction. But hey I’ll just believe western sources that basically claim the Russian army has been destroyed 3 times over and according to the Ukrainians has lost more equipment then it ever had. Yet here we are…just as predicted earlier in the thread. You’ve swallowed so much Putin propaganda, you’ve lost the ability to use common sense, critical thinking, or deductive reasoning. We’ve all seen hundreds of meat-wave attacks shot to pieces, but you no doubt believe those are Fake. Btw, it’s not unusual at all, to lose the bulk of your original Army in a big war. (Multiple times) That’s why Training and Conscription is a thing. You’d know this already if you enjoyed consuming history as much as spoon-fed propaganda. Btw, your whole argument is retarded as well as sad, because this isn’t going to be decided by “amount of casualties”. It will be decided by Political will and Money. All I’m hearing is noise. You’re going to have to do better than that. It’s not propaganda, it’s common sense and observation. Dismissing opinions as Putin propaganda is silly and childish. That’s all y’all know how to do and it betrays the weakness in your stances. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 9/24/2024 10:16:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: Citadel-SC]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: No analogy? You’re telling me that JDAM-ER hasn’t been used? Tell me more? You can’t just count munitions 1:1. Western artillery is several times more effective than Russian artillery. And longer ranged. Go on Telegram if you want to see how Russians die. They are still assaulting without support. Oh my god they used some JDAMS!!! No where near as many to even be comparable. Western artillery is marginally superior though not in every case but no where near levels the playing field given Russian fire superiority.,Go to telegram to see Russians die? I do but what does that prove? You can go there to see Ukrainians die as well….a lot of them. You haven’t made a viable case to disprove my assertion. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 9/24/2024 10:20:20 PM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Close enough. And I’ve never heard of Ukrainians raping an 18 year old until he signs an indefinite contract. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Originally Posted By Citadel-SC: So not even remotely analogous to Ukraine’s current policy. Close enough. And I’ve never heard of Ukrainians raping an 18 year old until he signs an indefinite contract. It’s not close enough. It’s nowhere near close. The war is not a meme. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 10:21:21 PM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: Is US leadership under Trump or anyone else willing to employ nukes? To deter, an enemy has to believe you’re willing to do How do we get from Sep 2024 to Beijing having no faith in its JL-3s and believing Washington DC is itching to go nuclear? Even Israel seems reticent to use its nukes to prevent Iran from acquiring a nuke. India and Pakistan seem to be the only countries, maybe North Korea, to actually do the needful Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: I guess we should get to work being less corrupt and more efficient than the CCP. It's understandable that we don't want to compete with slave labor, but there's a significant delta between that and what is happening. Paying $60,000+ per switchblade, and $3m per cruise missile is not the answer. "More air defense" at $3m to $10m per shot is also not the answer. When it comes to deterring China, a coherent forward basing strategy, backed by a credible Triad is all we need. We don't need piles of expensive missiles, because getting into a giant missile fight with China is the most fucking retarded strategy and planning that one could conceive. Only complete fucking idiots think it is acceptable. "I have an idea guys, let's try to beat the enemy at their own game, on their home turf!!!" -Carl Von Clusterfuck Is US leadership under Trump or anyone else willing to employ nukes? To deter, an enemy has to believe you’re willing to do How do we get from Sep 2024 to Beijing having no faith in its JL-3s and believing Washington DC is itching to go nuclear? Even Israel seems reticent to use its nukes to prevent Iran from acquiring a nuke. India and Pakistan seem to be the only countries, maybe North Korea, to actually do the needful We had a very credible and feared triad under Jimmy Carter. I agree that we do have a bit of a problem with the "credible" portion of having a "credible deterrent" And that problem extends pretty far and wide beyond the Whitehouse. Trump with a halfway decent NSA, SecDef and SecState could easily fix this issue in a few months. By this time next year, we could easily be postured to deter China from FIC aggression, SIC expansion, and economic disentanglement for the next generation or longer. There is a simple and cheap solution, we are just too stupid and weak to do it. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 10:21:24 PM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Citadel-SC: No quote didn’t want me to see huh? Oh my god they used some JDAMS!!! No where near as many to even be comparable. Western artillery is marginally superior though not in every case but no where near levels the playing field given Russian fire superiority.,Go to telegram to see Russians die? I do but what does that prove? You can go there to see Ukrainians die as well….a lot of them. You haven’t made a viable case to disprove my assertion. We went from no equivalent to not enough of them. Can you point to a single source that isn’t Russian influences that believes Ukraine has suffered greater casualties? Hint: compare the number of ambulances. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 10:27:09 PM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Missilegeek: It's the biggest budget on the planet, by a lot, for a generation. Adjusted for inflation, the biggest budget ever. Do we feel like we have a bigger budget than Reagan? We are getting massively ripped off. Sure we could spend more as a % of GDP, but why would we do that when 87% of it is an absolute waste? So a defense budget cut in half spent on nuke triad and a maybe 1 aircraft carrier, 1 Marine battalion a brigade of Army infantry and some fighter escorts for bombwrs but were serious about threatening nukes which will deter war? Or what’s the summary of your proposal? Also, what is the pitch to convince future CinC and Congress to adopt the proposal? I don’t disagree with you or Ron that there’s enormous waste in past and present defense spending |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 10:33:30 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Missilegeek: It's the biggest budget on the planet, by a lot, for a generation. Adjusted for inflation, the biggest budget ever. Do we feel like we have a bigger budget than Reagan? We are getting massively ripped off. Sure we could spend more as a % of GDP, but why would we do that when 87% of it is an absolute waste? Ah, gotcha. No blood for oil! The Navy should have to hold bake sales to build ships! I'm sure there are other International ANSWER and Code Pink slogans you could throw in here. Defense spending is at a generational low as percent of GDP, while all our enemies are ramping up their spending dramatically, and becoming more aggressive. But I'm sure we can sit at home, leave the rest of the world alone, and nothing bad will ever happen for us. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 10:38:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: CarmelBytheSea]
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Missilegeek: We had a very credible and feared triad under Jimmy Carter. I agree that we do have a bit of a problem with the "credible" portion of having a "credible deterrent" And that problem extends pretty far and wide beyond the Whitehouse. Trump with a halfway decent NSA, SecDef and SecState could easily fix this issue in a few months. By this time next year, we could easily be postured to deter China from FIC aggression, SIC expansion, and economic disentanglement for the next generation or longer. There is a simple and cheap solution, we are just too stupid and weak to do it. How would Trump implement this? Why would China not assume its JL-3s are sufficient to counter our nuclear threats? Trump didn’t seem to fare well with North Korea. He made a valiant effort but ultimately it failed and all his threats to destroy rocket man merely resulted in fruitless meetings and a 2024 just as belligerent nuclear North Korea How does Trump fare better? North Korea is small potatoes compared to China, North Korea has no submarines with nuclear weapons capable of reaching the continental USA nor the amount of nukes China has. How do we bridge the gap between a weak Biden today and a future in which Beijing fears our triad? It will be interesting to see what course Trump pursues on Iran’s nuclear program, especially with Israel not doing anything substantive about it but Trump vowing not to allow Tehran to acquire nukes in this year’s election campaign |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 10:39:33 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Missilegeek: We had a very credible and feared triad under Jimmy Carter. I agree that we do have a bit of a problem with the "credible" portion of having a "credible deterrent" And that problem extends pretty far and wide beyond the Whitehouse. Trump with a halfway decent NSA, SecDef and SecState could easily fix this issue in a few months. By this time next year, we could easily be postured to deter China from FIC aggression, SIC expansion, and economic disentanglement for the next generation or longer. There is a simple and cheap solution, we are just too stupid and weak to do it. What is it? |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 10:45:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: CarmelBytheSea]
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Ah, gotcha. No blood for oil! The Navy should have to hold bake sales to build ships! I'm sure there are other International ANSWER and Code Pink slogans you could throw in here. Defense spending is at a generational low as percent of GDP, while all our enemies are ramping up their spending dramatically, and becoming more aggressive. But I'm sure we can sit at home, leave the rest of the world alone, and nothing bad will ever happen for us. No, he’s not arguing that, he’s arguing a nuclear triad is the primary tool to prevent war with China if I understand correctly. But China has nuclear weapons capable subs in addition to whatever ground based working nukes it has and is working on the H6 bomber being nuclear capable. So China is pursuing their own triad today and is 2/3rds of the way there. https://www.airandspaceforces.com/article/strategy-policy-12/  
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Posted: 9/24/2024 10:46:02 PM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Citadel-SC: All I’m hearing is Noise. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Citadel-SC: Originally Posted By BillofRights: Originally Posted By Citadel-SC: Originally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Originally Posted By Citadel-SC: Explain in detail how you think that to be true. Why Ukrainian casualties would be lower? They fight in the defense and are less wasteful of lives. Russians are attacking like Zhukov, as if casualties don’t matter. In a way they don’t, a guy has to die for his commander to keep his wages. That’s it? You fell for the human wave trope? Russia has an anywhere from 5-1 to 10-1 firepower advantage depending on the front. Russia lobes several hundred glide bombs into Ukrainian lines weekly, the Ukrainians have no answer and no analogy. The Ukrainians insist on defending every inch and often reinforce failure. The Russian strategy is to fix the Ukrainians in place, which they seem all to willing to abide, and then degrade and attrit them with fires. The Russians also have adopted small unit tactics quite successfully and don’t maneuver in masse. Studies have shown around 12% of casualties are from small arms. Just be cause the Ukrainians are on the defense does not mean less casualties by default and history shows such often. You guys saw the Wagner prisoner units get eaten up and projected that on to the whole war. It’s a simple deduction. But hey I’ll just believe western sources that basically claim the Russian army has been destroyed 3 times over and according to the Ukrainians has lost more equipment then it ever had. Yet here we are…just as predicted earlier in the thread. You’ve swallowed so much Putin propaganda, you’ve lost the ability to use common sense, critical thinking, or deductive reasoning. We’ve all seen hundreds of meat-wave attacks shot to pieces, but you no doubt believe those are Fake. Btw, it’s not unusual at all, to lose the bulk of your original Army in a big war. (Multiple times) That’s why Training and Conscription is a thing. You’d know this already if you enjoyed consuming history as much as spoon-fed propaganda. Btw, your whole argument is retarded as well as sad, because this isn’t going to be decided by “amount of casualties”. It will be decided by Political will and Money. All I’m hearing is Noise. Exactly! That’s precisely my point. You’ve been entirely Demoralized. Ideologically subverted. The experts claim it’s permanent and cannot be reversed.  Former KGB Agent, Yuri Bezmenov, Warns America About Socialist Subversion |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 10:54:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: CarmelBytheSea]
[#22]
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Posted: 9/24/2024 11:05:14 PM EST
[#23]
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Posted: 9/24/2024 11:41:39 PM EST
[#24]
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Posted: 9/25/2024 12:14:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AbleArcher: You guys are the experts, I'll take your word for it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AbleArcher: Originally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Originally Posted By AbleArcher: Are they the only ones? The US Army is slightly degraded, but with one exception (Patriot) it matters less than most think. You guys are the experts, I'll take your word for it. Lol. It's all fun and games when you don't know what you don't know. Arguing with Ryan Scott is like time travelling to a WFX planning conference in 2019. |
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Posted: 9/25/2024 12:16:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: The Army will be the backbone of the pacific war for so many reasons, none of which involve artillery and armored vehicles. Except, you know....Korea. And HIMARS. And Patriot. And THAAD. 
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TN, USA
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Posted: 9/25/2024 12:18:21 AM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BillofRights: Exactly! That’s precisely my point. You’ve been entirely Demoralized. Ideologically subverted. The experts claim it’s permanent and cannot be reversed.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1EA2ohrt5QQuote HistoryOriginally Posted By BillofRights: Originally Posted By Citadel-SC: Originally Posted By BillofRights: Originally Posted By Citadel-SC: Originally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Originally Posted By Citadel-SC: Explain in detail how you think that to be true. Why Ukrainian casualties would be lower? They fight in the defense and are less wasteful of lives. Russians are attacking like Zhukov, as if casualties don’t matter. In a way they don’t, a guy has to die for his commander to keep his wages. That’s it? You fell for the human wave trope? Russia has an anywhere from 5-1 to 10-1 firepower advantage depending on the front. Russia lobes several hundred glide bombs into Ukrainian lines weekly, the Ukrainians have no answer and no analogy. The Ukrainians insist on defending every inch and often reinforce failure. The Russian strategy is to fix the Ukrainians in place, which they seem all to willing to abide, and then degrade and attrit them with fires. The Russians also have adopted small unit tactics quite successfully and don’t maneuver in masse. Studies have shown around 12% of casualties are from small arms. Just be cause the Ukrainians are on the defense does not mean less casualties by default and history shows such often. You guys saw the Wagner prisoner units get eaten up and projected that on to the whole war. It’s a simple deduction. But hey I’ll just believe western sources that basically claim the Russian army has been destroyed 3 times over and according to the Ukrainians has lost more equipment then it ever had. Yet here we are…just as predicted earlier in the thread. You’ve swallowed so much Putin propaganda, you’ve lost the ability to use common sense, critical thinking, or deductive reasoning. We’ve all seen hundreds of meat-wave attacks shot to pieces, but you no doubt believe those are Fake. Btw, it’s not unusual at all, to lose the bulk of your original Army in a big war. (Multiple times) That’s why Training and Conscription is a thing. You’d know this already if you enjoyed consuming history as much as spoon-fed propaganda. Btw, your whole argument is retarded as well as sad, because this isn’t going to be decided by “amount of casualties”. It will be decided by Political will and Money. All I’m hearing is Noise. Exactly! That’s precisely my point. You’ve been entirely Demoralized. Ideologically subverted. The experts claim it’s permanent and cannot be reversed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1EA2ohrt5QThat’s not an argument, you’re a meme. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 9/25/2024 12:23:58 AM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: We went from no equivalent to not enough of them. Can you point to a single source that isn’t Russian influences that believes Ukraine has suffered greater casualties? Hint: compare the number of ambulances. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Originally Posted By Citadel-SC: No quote didn’t want me to see huh? Oh my god they used some JDAMS!!! No where near as many to even be comparable. Western artillery is marginally superior though not in every case but no where near levels the playing field given Russian fire superiority.,Go to telegram to see Russians die? I do but what does that prove? You can go there to see Ukrainians die as well….a lot of them. You haven’t made a viable case to disprove my assertion. We went from no equivalent to not enough of them. Can you point to a single source that isn’t Russian influences that believes Ukraine has suffered greater casualties? Hint: compare the number of ambulances. I’ll stand by no equivalence given the relevance or lack of. I’m not using Russian sources, it’s my own deduction. The sources are all bonkers on both sides. They’re all lying because no one knows the true figures. All have agendas to boot. |
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Posted: 9/25/2024 12:25:56 AM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Except, you know....Korea. And HIMARS. And Patriot. And THAAD. The permanent and rotational rocket artillery in USFK are traditionally M270s and there’s no shortage of those. Don’t have enough missiles, but that’s not going to make or break anything given the fact that USFK is a side show if the Koreas fight. If the army is worried I recommend getting with Hanwha and integrating KFOM so you can shoot Chunmoo ammo. I noted the Patriot shortage as being the single thing given to Ukraine that was a real problem. THAAD hasn’t been given to Ukraine, but much was the context of my comments. Let’s stay in context here. I’ve always said that air defense is the most important thing the Army will do in the war with China. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 9/25/2024 12:26:58 AM EST
[#30]
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Posted: 9/25/2024 12:27:36 AM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Citadel-SC: I’ll stand by no equivalence given the relevance or lack of. I’m not using Russian sources, it’s my own deduction. The sources are all bonkers on both sides. They’re all lying because no one knows the true figures. All have agendas to boot. Your own deduction. Interesting source. For what it’s worth IIRC the present count of KIA named in media is 80k Russians and 55k Ukrainians and the Ukrainian figure is much newer than the Russian figure. Someone involved in counting said the next update will be over 100k. |
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Posted: 9/25/2024 12:28:22 AM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Citadel-SC: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-09-24/ukraine-s-allies-play-down-hopes-for-zelenskiy-s-victory-plan-breakthrough?embedded-checkout=true As predicted, we want out. If republicans had been smarter they could be strangling Biden-Harris with this, but they aren’t, so they can’t. |
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Posted: 9/25/2024 12:32:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: The permanent and rotational rocket artillery in USFK are traditionally M270s and there’s no shortage of those. Don’t have enough missiles, but that’s not going to make or break anything given the fact that USFK is a side show if the Koreas fight. If the army is worried I recommend getting with Hanwha and integrating KFOM so you can shoot Chunmoo ammo. I noted the Patriot shortage as being the single thing given to Ukraine that was a real problem. THAAD hasn’t been given to Ukraine, but much was the context of my comments. Let’s stay in context here. I’ve always said that air defense is the most important thing the Army will do in the war with China. You do know air defense is artillery right? And there's actually very little "permanent" combat capabilities stationed in Korea? 8th Army is not a maneuver element. You seem to significantly underestimate the amount of US Army forces required to move to country to execute any sort of coherent response to war with the North. Non-kinetic effects havent seemed to even register on your planning matrix here as an army capability, and it's essentially neck and neck with kinetic fires at this point. The Army has a massive role in anything in the Pacific, for a reason. BMD is huge. Long range fires are huge. Multidomain capabilities and effects are huge. An overlooked portion of that is you have to take and hold ground to execute any of them. Like I said, it's like getting an OPLAN dissertation from a lieutenant during an I Corps WFX a half dozen years ago. |
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Posted: 9/25/2024 12:35:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: CarmelBytheSea]
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Citadel-SC: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-09-24/ukraine-s-allies-play-down-hopes-for-zelenskiy-s-victory-plan-breakthrough?embedded-checkout=true As predicted, we want out. Saw that along with “appeal to the world pressure Russia” articles but waiting to see what Biden’s response to Zelensky’s victory/peace proposal is.  https://apnews.com/article/zelenskyy-peace-plan-biden-russia-ukraine-d5e0d1aa9bf7d17e13609c2564d26489 
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TN, USA
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Posted: 9/25/2024 12:37:00 AM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryThey’re now hitting Zaporizhia, so either Ukraine’s ADA is lacking there or the Russians have extended the range, I’m guessing latter. These are ground up designs and not cobbled together glide modules on dumb bombs. |
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Posted: 9/25/2024 12:42:25 AM EST
[#36]
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Posted: 9/25/2024 12:48:06 AM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Citadel-SC: They’re now hitting Zaporizhia, so either Ukraine’s ADA is lacking there or the Russians have extended the range, I’m guessing latter. These are ground up designs and not cobbled together glide modules on dumb bombs. Yeah I posted an article about Zaporizhia earlier https://www.politico.eu/article/volodymyr-zelenskyy-biden-putin-bomb-strikes-russia-bombing-ukraine-war-kremlin/ 
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Posted: 9/25/2024 1:05:08 AM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: You do know air defense is artillery right? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: You do know air defense is artillery right? When someone says artillery without saying ADA, you know what they mean. Don’t play dumb. And there's actually very little "permanent" combat capabilities stationed in Korea? 8th Army is not a maneuver element. You seem to significantly underestimate the amount of US Army forces required to move to country to execute any sort of coherent response to war with the North. I’m aware of what is in Korea and that you believe the U.S. will have months to move more in. Non-kinetic effects havent seemed to even register on your planning matrix here as an army capability, and it's essentially neck and neck with kinetic fires at this point. The Army has a massive role in anything in the Pacific, for a reason. BMD is huge. Long range fires are huge. You have to take and hold ground to execute either. 1. You do not need to take ground for ballistic missile defense because the air defense systems are always located at or near the target, particularly in the case of Army forward deployed systems which engage in the terminal phase. 2. I’ve been aware of the sensors the MDTF will use from the day that friends who know had an open source to show me. I’m sure that there’s a lot more I don’t know. I’m counting on it actually. 3. Taking ground to fire weapons that are available on the ships guarding the amphibious force could become a self locking ice cream cone quickly. Holding ground is another story. |
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Posted: 9/25/2024 1:35:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: When someone says artillery without saying ADA, you know what they mean. Don’t play dumb. I’m aware of what is in Korea and that you believe the U.S. will have months to move more in. 1. You do not need to take ground for ballistic missile defense because the air defense systems are always located at or near the target, particularly in the case of Army forward deployed systems which engage in the terminal phase. 2. I’ve been aware of the sensors the MDTF will use from the day that friends who know had an open source to show me. I’m sure that there’s a lot more I don’t know. I’m counting on it actually. 3. Taking ground to fire weapons that are available on the ships guarding the amphibious force could become a self locking ice cream cone quickly. Holding ground is another story. The fact that you think a Korea push would take months reinforces that you have no idea what you are talking about. Also, you think we could ever support a navy big enough to cover the entire Pacific A2AD threat bubble? We have the largest navy in the world by multiple factors and don't even come close. We couldn't even cover our own SLOCs. You saw an article about the MDTF? Neato. That thing you know virtually nothing about is just the tip of the capabilities spear while you equate army functions to tube artillery. Again, your thoughts are a waffle house TTX that you think matches reality. It's not even close.  Attached File |
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Posted: 9/25/2024 1:50:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: K30MuleLAR15]
[#40]
America's leadership along with the military had the russian bear by the scrotum and went and gobbled on the fisheggs giving them a lifeline to continue to be the worldwide menace that they are today.
Superspy Bush then klinton didn't even get a reacharound or maybe they did when the cccp collapsed. The only real advantage that the U.S. gained was the intel that was given to Uncle Sam. Only the dim bulb superspy did not use it to get rid of the commies here in the U.S. government, instead let it flourish into what it is today. Thanks H.W.  Attached File |
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Posted: 9/25/2024 2:04:18 AM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: The fact that you think a Korea push would take months reinforces that you have no idea what you are talking about. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: The fact that you think a Korea push would take months reinforces that you have no idea what you are talking about. Define push. Flying guys in to fill prepositioned equipment? Fast. How long do you think it’s going to take to move 300,000 personnel and equipment to the other side of the Pacific? Months. Also, you think we could ever support a navy big enough to cover the entire Pacific A2AD threat bubble? We have the largest navy in the world by multiple factors and don't even come close. We couldn't even cover our own SLOCs. More shit I never said. But you’re starting to catch on to the part where you won’t have a boat to go where you want to. You saw an article about the MDTF? Neato. That thing you know virtually nothing about is just the tip of the capabilities spear while you equate army functions to tube artillery. Again, your thoughts are a waffle house TTX that you think matches reality. It's not even close. You build a lot of strawmen. |
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Posted: 9/25/2024 2:12:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: More shit I never said. But you’re starting to catch on to the part where you won’t have a boat to go where you want to. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: More shit I never said. But you’re starting to catch on to the part where you won’t have a boat to go where you want to. Being that there isn't much that the boats can do before the A2AD boundary is secured and pushed back, a lot of people seem to believe there will be capacity. Missile boats also aren't carrying troops. Welcome to 2019. Originally Posted By Ryan_Scott: You build a lot of strawmen. You literally just told me your functional understanding of MDTF is from an article, most likely years ago. Your lack of understanding of those capabilities seals the deal you have no idea what role they fill, much less what other capabilities they are linked to. Otherwise that would lead every discussion of yours, but here we are. You are still consistently wrapped around tanks and 155 artillery. Your depth on the INDOPACOM problem is childlike at this point. |
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Posted: 9/25/2024 2:32:05 AM EST
[#43]
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Posted: 9/25/2024 2:50:18 AM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Being that there isn't much that the boats can do before the A2AD boundary is secured and pushed back, a lot of people seem to believe there will be capacity. Missile boats also aren't carrying troops. Welcome to 2019. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Being that there isn't much that the boats can do before the A2AD boundary is secured and pushed back, a lot of people seem to believe there will be capacity. Missile boats also aren't carrying troops. Welcome to 2019. You and I both know there’s a difference between a DDG, an LHA and an LSV. Stop building strawman. You literally just told me your functional understanding of MDTF is from an article, most likely years ago. Your lack of understanding of those capabilities seals the deal you have no idea what role they fill, much less what other capabilities they are linked to. Otherwise that would lead every discussion of yours, but here we are. You are still consistently wrapped around tanks and 155 artillery. Your depth on the INDOPACOM problem is childlike at this point. No, I told you that I was first introduced to the sensors the MDTF is bringing to the fight by an article someone vetted and sent to me. I don’t tell you that’s all I know. What have I said about tanks and shells? You’re the one who said that current tanks are outdated and we are desperately short of shells. What I said was that if you’re counting on land victories to win the war in Asia it’s all over already. Your capacity to understand not what is written but what you imagine to be written is emblematic of a larger problem in the military. |
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Posted: 9/25/2024 2:59:45 AM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: You and I both know there’s a difference between a DDG, an LHA and an LSV. Stop building strawman. No, I told you that I was first introduced to the sensors the MDTF is bringing to the fight by an article someone vetted and sent to me. I don’t tell you that’s all I know. What have I said about tanks and shells? You’re the one who said that current tanks are outdated and we are desperately short of shells. What I said was that if you’re counting on land victories to win the war in Asia it’s all over already. Your capacity to understand not what is written but what you imagine to be written is emblematic of a larger problem in the military. If you knew anything about any of this your posts would be shaped significantly different. But you don't, and they aren't. |
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Posted: 9/25/2024 3:26:02 AM EST
[#46]
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Posted: 9/25/2024 3:38:08 AM EST
[#47]
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Posted: 9/25/2024 6:55:18 AM EST
[#48]
Do you think these army engineers will run into any opposition when they build these airfields or will it be uncontested? The Japanese used to go in the ground right? Like under the terrain? There's a specific term for it I think.
Is there anything like that in Ukraine or the incursion area? I figure you guys in this thread would know. Underground sounds dangerous. |
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Posted: 9/25/2024 7:31:00 AM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryThe only way this is a credible threat is as the Soviet white sea bastion strategy from the cold war. Deep inside the yellow sea as far from US attack boats as they can get behind layers of defense and land based ASW. If they can launch from there it's a tougher problem. We have a pretty good idea that this is the plan indicated by the weird and still mysterious accident they had a couple years ago in the yellow sea. Lost part or all of a crew due to getting caught in some type of anti submarine defense in the yellow sea. They cannot deploy those boats in the blue water of the Pacific, they are noisy as shit and will get snatched up by fixed, mobil and SSN based sensors. If I know this, the Navy has been working the problem for a while. Still a tough nut to crack. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 9/25/2024 7:48:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: Citadel-SC]
[#50]
Quote HistoryA huge loss, Ukraine’s southern Donbass lynchpin. Looks like Ukrainsk probably fell too. Of course, it will be downplayed. Once Toresk, Chasiv Yar and Povrosk fall, there isn’t much to stop the Russians from finally rolling up the Donbass. |
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