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Link Posted: 12/16/2023 8:59:46 PM EST
[#1]
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Quoted:
Really.


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Quoted:


Really?
Really.




Seems to me they were safer going about their day to day business prior to getting kidnapped.
Link Posted: 12/16/2023 9:02:52 PM EST
[#2]
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If the fuckheads of hamas hadn't taken them hostage they would be alove today.

End of fucking story.

Kill hamas. All of them.
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That is the correct answer.
Link Posted: 12/16/2023 9:10:49 PM EST
[#3]
Friendly fire isn’t really friendly. The Israeli’s have a history with “friendly” fire.

This was pretty bad
Link Posted: 12/16/2023 9:24:25 PM EST
[#4]
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Friendly fire isn’t really friendly. The Israeli’s have a history with “friendly” fire.

This was pretty bad
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Stop bringing up the USS Liberty.

They repaid us for the attack with a small portion of the foreign aid we gave them that year.

They've paid their debts, let it go.
Link Posted: 12/16/2023 11:00:15 PM EST
[#5]
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I went to a highschool that was 30% Muslim. Are you sure about that ?
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I learned something new today.
Link Posted: 12/16/2023 11:27:16 PM EST
[#6]
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I learned something new today.
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I went to a highschool that was 30% Muslim. Are you sure about that ?


I learned something new today.
Yup. Muslims are all brunettes and Catholics are all blondes.
Link Posted: 12/17/2023 1:19:11 AM EST
[#7]
Guess they're gonna end up at the Russian approach to hostage "rescuing".
Link Posted: 12/17/2023 1:25:49 AM EST
[#8]
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They are also fighting an enemy that will use every dirty trick in the book and will break every 'rule' of war. You also have to consider that they are fighting in an urban area that has been turned into a fortress, it's not surprising they are a little quick on the trigger.

ETA: Fallujah was a tough fight but Gaza has gotta be worse. Fallujah had a population of about 100k but most had fled before the battle. The number of insurgents was much smaller than what Hamas fields and they didn't have years to prep the city for invasion.
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With a conscript army my guess is friendly fire incidents aren't particularly unusual
They are also fighting an enemy that will use every dirty trick in the book and will break every 'rule' of war. You also have to consider that they are fighting in an urban area that has been turned into a fortress, it's not surprising they are a little quick on the trigger.

ETA: Fallujah was a tough fight but Gaza has gotta be worse. Fallujah had a population of about 100k but most had fled before the battle. The number of insurgents was much smaller than what Hamas fields and they didn't have years to prep the city for invasion.


Fallujah was more like 300,000 but like you said most left before the battle.
Link Posted: 12/17/2023 2:12:41 AM EST
[#9]
It sucks. Shit happens and there's always confusion when fighting is occurring. No blame at all to the soldiers. All blame is on the Gaza scum. Eliminate the problem for the good of mankind, Israel. In the memory of those poor bastards killed.
Link Posted: 12/17/2023 2:14:21 AM EST
[#10]
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Israel seems to be taking 'shoot first ask questions later' to heart.   Their kill tally on their own population keeps growing, that cant be popular at home.   really makes you appreciate the professionalism of other first world militaries
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What a bunch of crap. How many of those professionals are fighting around their own populations?
Link Posted: 12/17/2023 3:09:25 AM EST
[#11]
I'm very pro-Israel but they fucked up big here. You can't just shoot unarmed people holding a white flag.
Link Posted: 12/17/2023 8:04:56 AM EST
[#12]
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Keep using Hamas as the source and Liberal “Journalists” who 100% support them…

You get stories like this.

They are desperate to save Hamas
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This. I do not trust Times of Israel as a source.

A paper started in 2012 by two ardent Leftists.
Link Posted: 12/17/2023 8:23:51 AM EST
[#13]
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This. I do not trust Times of Israel as a source.

A paper started in 2012 by two ardent Leftists.
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Keep using Hamas as the source and Liberal “Journalists” who 100% support them…

You get stories like this.

They are desperate to save Hamas



This. I do not trust Times of Israel as a source.

A paper started in 2012 by two ardent Leftists.


The incident happened..

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-778272

The IDF soldiers who mistakenly killed three Israeli hostages in Gaza on Friday violated the rules of engagement, IDF Chief-of-Staff Lt.-Gen. Herzi Halevi announced on Saturday night.

The soldiers shot at the hostages even though they screamed “Help!” in Hebrew, were bare from the waist up, and held up a white flag.

Halevi said that at this stage the IDF was treating it as a tragic error and violation under very difficult circumstances without a condemnation, but there could still theoretically be a criminal process at some later date led by the IDF legal division.
.....

The hostages raised a white flag, cried for help, and kept their upper bodies bare so that no one would suspect they were hiding a bomb under their shirts.

One IDF soldier fired on the three hostages.

Subsequently, the army has concluded that this initial fire killed two of the hostages, but only wounded the third one, whoran back into the building from which he had exited with the other two.

......

Some minutes later, the wounded third hostage exited the building again, pleading for a second time to be saved. Two different sets of soldiers other than the original soldier who killed the other two shot him dead.

Link Posted: 12/17/2023 8:37:09 AM EST
[#14]
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I went to a highschool that was 30% Muslim. Are you sure about that ?
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In Dearborn?
Link Posted: 12/17/2023 8:40:24 AM EST
[#15]
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In Dearborn?
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Quoted:


I went to a highschool that was 30% Muslim. Are you sure about that ?

In Dearborn?


Yep.
Link Posted: 12/17/2023 9:19:55 AM EST
[#16]
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Fallujah was more like 300,000 but like you said most left before the battle.
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You're right, fixed

Link Posted: 12/17/2023 1:18:41 PM EST
[#17]
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This. I do not trust Times of Israel as a source.

A paper started in 2012 by two ardent Leftists.
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Quoted:
Keep using Hamas as the source and Liberal “Journalists” who 100% support them…

You get stories like this.

They are desperate to save Hamas


This. I do not trust Times of Israel as a source.

A paper started in 2012 by two ardent Leftists.


Do me a favor, please find a source you consider trustworthy and post what they are saying about what happened to the hostages.  

If you do, you'll be the first.  Every time someone criticizes where I find the news, I ask them to give me better sources, but nobody ever does.
Link Posted: 12/17/2023 1:20:27 PM EST
[#18]
Fucking clowns.
Link Posted: 12/17/2023 1:34:04 PM EST
[#19]
They fucked up. I’m sure they feel horrible about it. Easy to Monday morning quarterback what I would’ve done. I’m sure a lot of these guys are not that well trained for such an intense scenario and some just freak out and air on the side of minimizing their own risk.

It doesn’t excuse anything. This was fucked up. I get why it happened though.
Link Posted: 12/19/2023 4:27:59 PM EST
[#20]
Update is from information found in Times of Israel.  Still waiting for a more "reliable" news source.

Times of Israel:  IDF probe reportedly reveals soldiers who shot dead hostages weren’t briefed on Hebrew sign spotted ahead of time

The Kan public broadcaster reveals new details about the probe into the IDF’s mistaken killing of three hostages last Friday.

According to the report, the IDF battalion that was on duty during the incident was not briefed by the unit it was replacing about the latter group’s spotting of a Hebrew sign that read “Help – three hostages” on one of the buildings at the scene.

Moreover, the probe reportedly determined that the IDF sharpshooter who shot dead the first two hostages Alon Shamriz and Samar Talalka did not recognize the white cloth they were carrying. In the briefing he received upon starting his shift, the sniper was told that the entire area was a combat zone and he was allowed to open fire at anyone suspicious.

The probe also found that the killing of the third hostage, Yotam Haim, was particularly egregious, since he managed to flee back into a nearby building after being shot with Shamriz and Talalka.

The battalion commander then shouted at the soldiers to hold their fire but one of them proceeded to shoot and kill Haim after he reappeared from the building a second time.
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Yotam Haim was the redhead.  


Alon Shamriz came from a family of Iranian Jews, and Samar Talalka was a Bedouin who worked in a kibbutz.  Initially it was reported they were both Bedouins.
Link Posted: 12/20/2023 7:52:43 AM EST
[#21]
Hostages killed on Friday seen on K9 unit video
Israeli hostages mistakenly killed by IDF were recorded on canine unit camera, but footage wasn't checked
The three Israeli hostages held in Gaza who were mistakenly killed on Friday by Israeli soldiers were recorded on a camera that was attached to a dog from the elite canine unit Oketz, a few days before they were shot and killed.

The camera attached to the dog's body recorded them in one of the buildings they were in, but the footage was not checked because the dog was killed during the activity.

In the footage, which was only watched in retrospect, hostages are heard calling for help in Hebrew.
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Link Posted: 12/20/2023 8:02:36 AM EST
[#22]
" In the briefing he received upon starting his shift, the sniper was told that the entire area was a combat zone and he was allowed to open fire at anyone suspicious."

Ruby Ridge ROE in one of the most densely populated areas of the globe might not be the best idea to minimize civilian casualties.
Link Posted: 12/21/2023 8:06:57 AM EST
[#23]
Haaretz:  Investigation Into Killing of Israeli Hostages by IDF Reveals a String of Errors and Flaws

Highpoints:
At 9:00 on Friday morning, one of the soldiers went to the third floor of an adjacent building to observe the surrounding area. He was armed with a rifle with telescopic sights, meant to allow precise identification before firing. Other soldiers were staying in the building's second floor.

At 9:46, the soldier identified three figures he considered suspicious, emerging from a house 500 meters away. Between them was another building, making it difficult to target the soldiers.

The soldier fired three rapid shots, killing al-Talalka and Shamriz and wounding Yotam Haim. He later testified that 'for a split second' he noticed that the three were not wearing shirts and were waving a white cloth, but he didn't understand that they were trying to give themselves up to the IDF.

Haim fell to the ground but managed to get up, began yelling "help!", and entered another building, 20 meters from where the soldiers were. Meanwhile, the battalion commander ordered, by shouting and over the radio, for his soldiers to desist from firing.

The commander, who saw the two dead men, called on Haim to come out of the building. He again told the soldiers not to shoot the wounded man or approach him, in case it was an attempt to lure soldiers.

At 9:49, two soldiers noticed Haim moving and opened fire, in spite of their commander's order. The hostage was killed instantly.

On December 13, a day before the hostages were killed, drones identified a building in the area on which the hostage's pleas for help were scrawled. As far as is known, the command post dealing with hostages and missing persons, headed by Maj. Gen. (res.) Nitzan Alon, was not informed of this.

The force that operated in the Shujaiyeh suburb belongs to the IDF's Battalion 17. It consisted of cadets from a squad commanders' course in the IDF's Infantry School (Brigade 828), who were inducted into the army's Golani brigade six months prior.

The battalion entered the Gaza Strip after the war broke out, following pressure by the brigade commander to integrate them in combat missions.
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Article:
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Link Posted: 12/28/2023 2:04:33 PM EST
[#24]
More details emerging about 3 Israeli hostages killed by the IDF--Source.

An investigation into the accidental shooting of three Israeli hostages, which was published Thursday, found that one of the hostages, Yotam Haim, was shot and killed roughly 15 minutes after the other hostages, Samer Fuad El-Talalka and Alon Shamriz, were also shot and killed.

During those 15 minutes, an Israeli officer pleaded with Haim to exit a building, to which he fled following the shooting of El-Talalka and Shamriz. When Haim left the building, he was shot by two soldiers, despite the fact that the officer had ordered them not to fire. Haim died shortly after.

The findings of the investigation into the tragic incident, which occurred earlier this month in the northern Gaza neighborhood of Shujaiyeh, were presented to the families of the three hostages.
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Link Posted: 12/28/2023 2:10:14 PM EST
[#25]
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It appears some soldiers think Gaza Strip is a free fire zone.
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Some?!?!!? Their ROE are way different than ours.
Link Posted: 12/28/2023 2:17:35 PM EST
[#26]
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" In the briefing he received upon starting his shift, the sniper was told that the entire area was a combat zone and he was allowed to open fire at anyone suspicious."

Ruby Ridge ROE in one of the most densely populated areas of the globe might not be the best idea to minimize civilian casualties.
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I don't think minimizing civilian casualties is an objective.
Link Posted: 12/28/2023 2:47:01 PM EST
[#27]
If the soldiers disobeyed an order not to fire, they belong in jail.

ROE is tricky with non-uniformed combatants (part of why official militaries are REQUIRED to wear uniforms). For example, during a war, you can generally target uniformed combatants without restriction (absent scenarios where you know they are wounded/surrendering). Not the same for non-uniformed combatants, you usually need specific facts such as being armed, emplacing explosives, etc.

But what happened with these hostages is likely a war crime. I say that as someone supportive of eradicating anyone associated with Hamas or other terror groups.
Link Posted: 12/28/2023 3:24:12 PM EST
[#28]
The IDF seems to be repleat with retards. They knew there were hostages in areas, yet an incident like this happens where the hostages escape, take every caution, listen to commands and still get shot by their own military in the scenario described. Idiots.
Link Posted: 12/28/2023 4:07:11 PM EST
[#29]
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Imagine a forum in the USA where "experts" post their perspective on why people were shot in Gaza, an area filled with Hamas animal-terrorists who do anything they can to kill all Jews
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C'mon guys, the IDF should get a pass to kill whatever shirtless, white flag waving people they want.
Hamas wants to kill JEWS! That's worse than wanting to kill people! That's wanting to kill Super People! Like, really bad.
Link Posted: 12/28/2023 9:00:38 PM EST
[#30]
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Some?!?!!? Their ROE are way different than ours.
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It appears some soldiers think Gaza Strip is a free fire zone.


Some?!?!!? Their ROE are way different than ours.


Not really how it works. Even the widest ROE doesn't allow what happened, because there are actually laws that govern all of this, that apply to all countries. They likely violated Israeli laws, they almost certainly violated international laws, the question is if they are held accountable.

The fact that they were ordered not to shoot, and did (if what is reported is true), could turn this into a pretty long jail sentence for those guys. It stops being an accident, which happens, regardless of ROE, and becomes a violation of military law, at best, a war crime, at worst. There is no allowance for deliberately targeting civilians, as a lot of Russians will one day find out when Putin dies, and they are also held to account for actions in Ukraine.
Link Posted: 12/28/2023 9:04:16 PM EST
[#31]
Conscripts.

The US is spoiled with a professional army.
Link Posted: 12/29/2023 1:21:19 PM EST
[#32]
Times of Israel:  Battalion chief told hostage to approach; when he did, a soldier shot him, probe finds


This infographic published by the IDF on December 28, 2023, details the locations of an incident

A few new details--the hostages escaped after their Hamas captors were killed on December 10th. During the firefight that killed their captors, troops of the Golani Brigade heard calls for help in Hebrew coming from a building in the area, but thought it was a ruse by Hamas.  They didn't go in for fear of booby traps.  A dog was sent in and calls for help in Hebrew can be heard on the video from the dog's camera.  The dog was killed and the video wasn't reviewed until December 18th.

The IDF found a note a note in Hebrew at the entrance to a tunnel--the 3 hostages were kept in that tunnel according to the IDF.  

Drones in the area filmed the signs the hostages put on a building but troops suspected it was a trap.

Article:
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