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Posted: 9/30/2018 11:07:17 PM EDT
[#1]
Venerable F-4 is the best 3rd gen fighter.
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Posted: 9/30/2018 11:14:12 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That number means nothing in isolation. How many sorties did it fly compared to the MiGs? How many of those were bombing missions? The Phantom did have a winning air-to-air record in Vietnam. Ground fire was the big killer of our jets. |
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Posted: 9/30/2018 11:14:34 PM EDT
[#3]
The F-4 was a heavy escort/attack aircraft that could dogfight.
Air to Air it wasn't ideal, but sufficient. |
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Posted: 9/30/2018 11:48:41 PM EDT
[#4]
It was my favorite plane growing up, just about all the kids in elementary school had F-4 book covers...
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Posted: 9/30/2018 11:58:50 PM EDT
[#5]
It was so mediocre that over 5000 were built. The most of any Western fighter as far as I know, but the Russians made a lot more of some models of MiGs.
 It's possible that the F-16 may end up being built in greater numbers than the F-4 at 5195 copies. If so it'll take the crown as the most produced post-cold-war fighter of all time. But with its current production total not know, with the last reliable data I have showing 4588 delivered airframes as of December of last year, then it'll take about another 600 orders to beat Phantom production totals. That could happen. And maybe it won't. Given that the F-35 keeps getting cheaper on a per copy basis as the production lines become more efficient, among other factors, that could end F-16 production. Except for those few customers who are US government approved for the 16 but not for the 35. |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 12:06:00 AM EDT
[#6]
1950s designed interceptor that was was never intended to dogfight, but instead use missles and radar. Very adaptable and capable design made it successful as a multi role aircraft. Tactics made it successful as a fighter.
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Posted: 10/1/2018 12:26:15 AM EDT
[#7]
Probably my favorite fighter of the period. Here is an F-4J on the cats on my first cruise.
 Attached File |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 12:28:03 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tomcats started carrying laser guided bombs in the Balkans and JDAMs in the WOT. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
To answer your question about Tomcats there is no comparison. Tomcats blow them away. The only thing a Phantom has going for it in a dogfight is speed. A tomcat is faster believe it or not, and can turn. In the bombing role the Tomcat never really got the chance to prove itself. |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 12:32:39 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If I'm reading Wiki right, 50 of them were shot down in Vietnam, not sure I'd call that the best... 
Consider the number of sorties flown, the air defense threat/Mig threat they faced and the nature of some of the missions (Wild Weasel), 50 jets shot down during a long war doesn't really reflect on the quality of the aircraft. In a war shit gets fucked up. Note the large hole near the engine. Not an F4 but you get the idea.  Attached File |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 6:17:05 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A really wonky design. A lot of it to aerodynamics seemed very strange to me 1940s or 1950s experimental like even. But powerful engines and a lot of fuel made for a really good payload, you could take a hit to with all that metal. . If I was going to make an aircraft back then I would make something very similar to an F5 but with a single larger engine, or maybe it would be more like a threesome between a mig-21 a F5 and mirage |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 6:34:05 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, it had all that weird retarded flight surface geometry to over-come its poor design. How can the same generation of engineers create the beautiful, perfect SR-71 but come up with the fucked up F-4 design? Oh...the F-4 was good, but by sheer american might, it go there eventually. It was like the ME-104 of WW2 or the spitfire, it got all the attention because it looked sexy but the other planes had far better kill ratios Phantoms were such outstanding planes that they’re still in service. Yes,quite a few were lost in Vietnam and by the Israelis and Iranians but the majority to air defense,not other fighters. The only 3rd generation fighter that turned more MiGs and Sukhois into smoking holes for fewer losses in the air is the Mirage III and to that you can attribute Israeli pilots over Arabs. However,Israeli Phantom drivers shot down Pakistanis,North Koreans and even Russians during Operation Rimon 20. I’d put my money on Japanese and ROK F-4s over Nork MiG-29s today. |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 6:37:44 AM EDT
[#12]
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Posted: 10/1/2018 6:47:28 AM EDT
[#13]
5,000+ were built. That says something.
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Posted: 10/1/2018 7:00:46 AM EDT
[#14]
F-106 was the best interceptor.
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Posted: 10/1/2018 8:40:26 AM EDT
[#15]
Damn, I was young once. Me stringing arming wire on MK82 fuze extenders. MK82 slicks centerline, and CBU's on the left inboard. Ubon Thailand, 433TFS, "Satan's Angels", 1969-1970.
 Attached File |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 8:48:26 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, it had all that weird retarded flight surface geometry to over-come its poor design. How can the same generation of engineers create the beautiful, perfect SR-71 but come up with the fucked up F-4 design? Oh...the F-4 was good, but by sheer american might, it go there eventually. It was like the ME-104 of WW2 or the spitfire, it got all the attention because it looked sexy but the other planes had far better kill ratios |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 8:55:04 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, it had all that weird retarded flight surface geometry to over-come its poor design. How can the same generation of engineers create the beautiful, perfect SR-71 but come up with the fucked up F-4 design? Oh...the F-4 was good, but by sheer american might, it go there eventually. It was like the ME-104 of WW2 or the spitfire, it got all the attention because it looked sexy but the other planes had far better kill ratios 
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Posted: 10/1/2018 8:59:36 AM EDT
[#18]
If one flew low altitude super sonic overhead, you'll understand the Doppler effect. You will never forget it.
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Posted: 10/1/2018 9:05:35 AM EDT
[#19]
My buddy once described the F-4 as "The aircraft that proved that, given large enough engines, even a brick will fly".
Seemed pretty close, to me. That being said, I think they're dead sexy and LOVE the things. |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 9:24:12 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A later (post '78) Mig-23 would give a Phantom a run for its money. Especially the 80's models that carried the AA-11. |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 9:49:00 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That could be attributed to ROE as much as anything else.... |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 9:50:55 AM EDT
[#22]
Ah, the F-4, or as we said. McDonnell-Douglas' proof that if you put enough motors on it, a brick can fly.
The F-4 had some drawbacks and some advantages. A really terrible glide ratio and in full A/B those two J79s really drink the gas. But the airframe itself was incredibly rugged and soaked up ground fire like nobody's business. A continual product improvement program kept them relevant for far longer than any of the century series fighters, which were all pretty "meh" in most roles. Not too many fighters have a service life as long as the F-4 series did, especially at the time. |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 9:57:24 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A Triumph of Power over Aerodynamics. If it was my ass in the seat, I'd rather have a Kfir/Mirage F1 or MIG-25 Foxbat Like much Russian equipment, it was a pile of flying shit. It never panned out. |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 10:10:03 AM EDT
[#24]
In the right hands the fucker could out fight anyone, in it's time.
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Posted: 10/1/2018 11:00:25 AM EDT
[#25]
It was very versatile leading to it long service life. So yes it could be said that it was the best. Was it the best dogfighter ? I think that more dependent on the tactics used.
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Posted: 10/1/2018 12:59:56 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
A later (post '78) Mig-23 would give a Phantom a run for its money. Especially the 80's models that carried the AA-11. Quoted:
... Or A-4 Skyhawks. In daytime visual set-ups, a properly-flown A-4 was almost unbeatable. But those set-ups are artificial. If you ever found yourself in actual combat turning against a single opponent, you made a big mistake and were in trouble. In real-world air-to-air combat, I would much rather have been in an F-4 than an A-4. |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 1:03:27 PM EDT
[#27]
A4 Skyhawk, the most fun ac I've ever flown!
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Posted: 10/1/2018 1:15:34 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If the F-8 had an M61 instead of the jammomatic mk12's, It would be my choice. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I always liked the F-8, . . .it had GUNS 
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Outof_f8.gif http://www.theworldwars.net/weapons/pictures/air/us/photos/photo_us_f-8_1.jpg https://thumbs-prod.si-cdn.com/OhEWnJO7hhCk6wF8XDbCywkPkT0=/800x600/filters:no_upscale():focal(1141x543:1142x544)/https://public-media.smithsonianmag.com/filer/78/4d/784d4d11-c09b-4120-966a-96fb5543b915/11x_on2015_f8crusader3_live.jpg  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTz0sAQaC_A |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 1:20:32 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It was so mediocre that over 5000 were built. The most of any Western fighter as far as I know, but the Russians made a lot more of some models of MiGs. https://www.avgeekery.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/BI2706.jpg It's possible that the F-16 may end up being built in greater numbers than the F-4 at 5195 copies. If so it'll take the crown as the most produced post-cold-war fighter of all time. But with its current production total not know, with the last reliable data I have showing 4588 delivered airframes as of December of last year, then it'll take about another 600 orders to beat Phantom production totals. That could happen. And maybe it won't. Given that the F-35 keeps getting cheaper on a per copy basis as the production lines become more efficient, among other factors, that could end F-16 production. Except for those few customers who are US government approved for the 16 but not for the 35. |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 1:22:33 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So was it a fucked up design or was it sexy or are you ignoring how successful of a plane it still is because it isn’t sexy? I’m confused. Phantoms were such outstanding planes that they’re still in service. Yes,quite a few were lost in Vietnam and by the Israelis and Iranians but the majority to air defense,not other fighters. The only 3rd generation fighter that turned more MiGs and Sukhois into smoking holes for fewer losses in the air is the Mirage III and to that you can attribute Israeli pilots over Arabs. However,Israeli Phantom drivers shot down Pakistanis,North Koreans and even Russians during Operation Rimon 20. I’d put my money on Japanese and ROK F-4s over Nork MiG-29s today. |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 1:33:18 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A mig 29 with a semi capable pilot will piss all over an f4 in a turning fight. The 29 has not fared well in actual air combat. |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 1:35:21 PM EDT
[#32]
They were beautiful birds.
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Posted: 10/1/2018 1:35:56 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: F4 a 60's fighter, the mig an 80's fighter. Put the mig on a 1on1 w/f15 and you don't even have to be good. The f15 is a 70's fighter. |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 1:38:03 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't forget the unarmed recce birds. |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 1:39:06 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You are absolutely right. I was replying to another absurd post. |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 1:41:13 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wha!? The Mig-23 was just an aweful airplane. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
A later (post '78) Mig-23 would give a Phantom a run for its money. Especially the 80's models that carried the AA-11. |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 1:44:11 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What all else are considered 3rd generation fighters? For the late 60s it sure as heck was hard to beat. I imagine in a real shooting war with Russia we'd of put as many sparrows & sidewinders on em and wiped out a crapton of Russians. MiG-25 falls in that era as well. US Teen fighters ushered in the 4th Generation, which was answered with the MiG-29, Su-27, and Mirage 2000. I don't agree with everything in these charts, but they do show good examples of 1st-4th Generation fighters: 
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Posted: 10/1/2018 1:47:25 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unfortunately the Sparrows and sidewinders of the late 1960s had a surprisingly high failure rate... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What all else are considered 3rd generation fighters? For the late 60s it sure as heck was hard to beat. I imagine in a real shooting war with Russia we'd of put as many sparrows & sidewinders on em and wiped out a crapton of Russians. The Sparrow was meant for shooting down bombers at BVR, not maneuvering fighters WVR from different aspects. |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 1:47:25 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If one flew low altitude super sonic overhead, you'll understand the Doppler effect. You will never forget it. |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 1:55:11 PM EDT
[#40]
Proof that anything can fly with enough thrust.
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Posted: 10/1/2018 1:56:39 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That was my squadron, but not until after they transitioned to the F-4. Flew J, Super J and S models. The Mig-23 was fast and very difficult to see nose-on, but those were about its only strengths, and it had plenty of weaknesses. Poor visibility, short legs, wings that couldn't transition while turning. Look up the now-declassified "Constant Peg" program. I went through that and flew against them. The Mig-21 was a far more dangerous opponent. Went through Navy Fighter Weapons School as an adversary, and then flew A-4s against plenty of F-4s and almost everything else. In daytime visual set-ups, a properly-flown A-4 was almost unbeatable. But those set-ups are artificial. If you ever found yourself in actual combat turning against a single opponent, you made a big mistake and were in trouble. In real-world air-to-air combat, I would much rather have been in an F-4 than an A-4. Quote HistoryQuoted:
That was my squadron, but not until after they transitioned to the F-4. Flew J, Super J and S models. Quoted:
A later (post '78) Mig-23 would give a Phantom a run for its money. Especially the 80's models that carried the AA-11. Quoted:
... Or A-4 Skyhawks. In daytime visual set-ups, a properly-flown A-4 was almost unbeatable. But those set-ups are artificial. If you ever found yourself in actual combat turning against a single opponent, you made a big mistake and were in trouble. In real-world air-to-air combat, I would much rather have been in an F-4 than an A-4. D(W/C 260)Peacher |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 1:57:27 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: MiG 25? Like much Russian equipment, it was a pile of flying shit. It never panned out. |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 2:04:54 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They would have gotten absolutely destroyed by F-14s. Other gen 3s I’d put in the category are MiG-21 and F-5, two incredibly successful airframes. He said he liked the F-4 better, that it was easier to fly, better reliability from the GE motors. With all-aspect missiles, he said he could and did hold his own, but the Tomcat had some clear advantages in maneuverability, as long as you were careful with throttle inputs. I'm trying to find the video now. |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 2:07:01 PM EDT
[#44]
Seen all the F4's I ever need to see.
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Posted: 10/1/2018 2:08:10 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Phantom II has (IIRC) 280 kills in Vietnam. They were not invincible, but they were the best. The F-4 Phantom II made McDonnel Douglas "The World's Largest Distributor of Mig Parts". Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If I'm reading Wiki right, 50 of them were shot down in Vietnam, not sure I'd call that the best... My screen background is a photo of a Phantom dropping 18 1,000lb bombs. |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 2:08:19 PM EDT
[#46]
Don't know, but it was my favorite model to build when I was younger and in to model building.
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Posted: 10/1/2018 2:14:59 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A mig 29 with a semi capable pilot will piss all over an f4 in a turning fight. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: So was it a fucked up design or was it sexy or are you ignoring how successful of a plane it still is because it isn’t sexy? I’m confused. Phantoms were such outstanding planes that they’re still in service. Yes,quite a few were lost in Vietnam and by the Israelis and Iranians but the majority to air defense,not other fighters. The only 3rd generation fighter that turned more MiGs and Sukhois into smoking holes for fewer losses in the air is the Mirage III and to that you can attribute Israeli pilots over Arabs. However,Israeli Phantom drivers shot down Pakistanis,North Koreans and even Russians during Operation Rimon 20. I’d put my money on Japanese and ROK F-4s over Nork MiG-29s today. Most MiG-29 pilots don't get anywhere near the hours Western pilots do. That was true with the East Germans even, who proved to not be very capable of adapting to NATO fighter tactics of being more of an independent/team thinker/player with your flight, vs taking GCI commands. |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 2:22:39 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A mig 29 with a semi capable pilot will piss all over an f4 in a turning fight. Well, no shit. Why would Mike Tyson be fighting a gorilla in the first place? Why would a Phantom be in a turning fight with a Mig 29? |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 2:23:14 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I used to watch the F-4s fly over the house as a kid. They are awesome. Sometime back, someone on here in one of these threads described the F-4 as the 60s muscle car of jet fighters. I always thought that was appropriate. They are sexy beasts. |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 2:30:05 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
Thoughts and comments on the F4 Phantom II...... best 3rd Gen fighter? Overweight poor maneuvering bucket sitting on two huge engines? How did they fare dogfighting with F14s? https://s14-eu5.startpage.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http:%2F%2F3ukr694671p02fhcme3a1bsaiek-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F04%2FCollings-f4-1200x800.jpg&sp=46d040616f31b69101424f112e103486 https://s16-us2.startpage.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http:%2F%2Fairshowstuff.com%2Fv4%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F05%2FIMG_8115web.jpg&sp=5b3950150e3e03529736725f99bf9b7b https://s17-us2.startpage.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=https:%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2Fi-jSxdRTNmc%2Fmaxresdefault.jpg&sp=3d25c4b06b29adccd89b877fce5d5d75 |
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