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I’m still chuckling about “but muh safe ‘space.’” We already have the Captain Kirks. The only thing left is the ships. There are one or two other countries on this planet that can pull together the monolithic will and resources and they have already caught us napping once.
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I would prefer that money be spent figuring out how to feed, clothe, shelter, and care for all the people currently on earth than spending all those resources looking to go somewhere else. I guess the plan is for those who go somewhere else to simply leave all those who aren't fed, and otherwise cared for behind.
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Quoted:
I would prefer that money be spent figuring out how to feed, clothe, shelter, and care for all the people currently on earth than spending all those resources looking to go somewhere else. I guess the plan is for those who go somewhere else to simply leave all those who aren't fed, and otherwise cared for behind. View Quote |
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Quoted:
I would prefer that money be spent figuring out how to feed, clothe, shelter, and care for all the people currently on earth than spending all those resources looking to go somewhere else. I guess the plan is for those who go somewhere else to simply leave all those who aren't fed, and otherwise cared for behind. View Quote Why do you think they need your concern to steer my time and money to that need? Why do you think they have no ability to figure that out for themselves? Why do you feel it necessary to hijack our resources and steer them toward people who will consume them only because it is easier than taking care of themselves? Why do you feel it is an either/or proposition? When people like me see people like you show up with concerns like this, we understand what you are really saying. The iron fist in the velvet glove always picks itself to benefit first and most when it camps on the shore of the river of rescources and says “look what good I am doing when I let you bring a straw to drink.” When good things happen anywhere, it is in spite of people like you, not because of you. When humanity achieves great things, it is because they were able to defend their actions from the locusts that would plague the great crops of human achievement. |
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Quoted:
If you want to give yourself some perspective on risk, the next time you are in a low light pollution area, look up and start counting 1 Mississippi, 2 Mississippi... It won’t take many before you see meteors, A few minutes at the most. Yes it’s neat to see the little fireball dying in the air. What I have also seen is a little line that illuminates for a tiny fraction of a second. That was a small object going unusually fast. Everything is out there. The larger they are the rarer they are. The faster they are the less mass they need to have an disparate effect on an object they impact. The exact same physics that work for the 5.56 round apply to planets. One of the videos I looked at examined the effect of a 30 meter diamond ball impacting earth at various speeds, fractions of the speed of light. Those are extremely unlikely to be a problem for us but being small and fast we’d have no chance to see something like that coming. And what if we did? As previously pointed out, there is a small window of opportunity and a small range of object types we could hope to affect. No offense but this is hilariously naive. Here is a story to give a little perspective with a very non-alarmist slant to avoid panicking the turtles crossing the highway. Wait till one gets really close. As far as what do we do to acquire science fiction hyperdrive spaceships to go warp speed to the star of our choice, that is ignoring the answer to the real question “what can we do with what we have?” The link I posted to the Grand Tour is opportunity. The timing is what it is-a window of opportunity a doable time in the future. When you plan from A to Z, launching large amounts equipment into orbit, going to work on an asteroid, building a ship, sending it on its way using the planetary alignment to launch ourselves out of the Solar System in the direction of likely habitable zone planets we have already discovered. It will take hundreds of years to make the journey with what we have now. But show me where the science breaks down? The only “blue sky” we are looking at is fusion technology isn’t mature enough to be useful. Yet. What we are lacking is the motive, and that will be found when somebody wants us to pay 1% tax on tea or we read the Zimmerman telegram or someone sinks a passenger ship or puts a beeping satellite over our heads or flies airplanes into our buildings. Whatever it is, it has to be the kind of thing people the likes of TetonCounty get. What kind of impact on Americans did funding the space race have? It was nothing like past war efforts and I am quite confident it wouldn’t have any more than that when we get to work in space again. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
If you want to give yourself some perspective on risk, the next time you are in a low light pollution area, look up and start counting 1 Mississippi, 2 Mississippi... It won’t take many before you see meteors, A few minutes at the most. Yes it’s neat to see the little fireball dying in the air. What I have also seen is a little line that illuminates for a tiny fraction of a second. That was a small object going unusually fast. Everything is out there. The larger they are the rarer they are. The faster they are the less mass they need to have an disparate effect on an object they impact. The exact same physics that work for the 5.56 round apply to planets. One of the videos I looked at examined the effect of a 30 meter diamond ball impacting earth at various speeds, fractions of the speed of light. Those are extremely unlikely to be a problem for us but being small and fast we’d have no chance to see something like that coming. And what if we did? As previously pointed out, there is a small window of opportunity and a small range of object types we could hope to affect. Quoted: In your scenario nothing in our solar system would be safe. How do you suggest we get to another star system without invoking scifi technology? Here is a story to give a little perspective with a very non-alarmist slant to avoid panicking the turtles crossing the highway. Wait till one gets really close. As far as what do we do to acquire science fiction hyperdrive spaceships to go warp speed to the star of our choice, that is ignoring the answer to the real question “what can we do with what we have?” The link I posted to the Grand Tour is opportunity. The timing is what it is-a window of opportunity a doable time in the future. When you plan from A to Z, launching large amounts equipment into orbit, going to work on an asteroid, building a ship, sending it on its way using the planetary alignment to launch ourselves out of the Solar System in the direction of likely habitable zone planets we have already discovered. It will take hundreds of years to make the journey with what we have now. But show me where the science breaks down? The only “blue sky” we are looking at is fusion technology isn’t mature enough to be useful. Yet. What we are lacking is the motive, and that will be found when somebody wants us to pay 1% tax on tea or we read the Zimmerman telegram or someone sinks a passenger ship or puts a beeping satellite over our heads or flies airplanes into our buildings. Whatever it is, it has to be the kind of thing people the likes of TetonCounty get. What kind of impact on Americans did funding the space race have? It was nothing like past war efforts and I am quite confident it wouldn’t have any more than that when we get to work in space again. What is "hilariously naive" are people thinking we can colonize another solar system with any technology known to man. Let me lay out the challenges for you. Closest star is over 4 light years away. Traveling at 0.1C is a >40 year one way trip so you will by necessity have to have a 'generational' ship if you want to colonize an exoplanet. In a previous post I showed that getting a 500 ton ship to an exoplanet @ 0.1C will require the energy equivalent of 40,000 tons of U235 assuming 100% efficiency. Where is your energy source and how do you fit it into a 500 ton ship? Traveling at 0.1C makes any debris you hit larger than a pin head a catastrophic event. (1 gram @ 0.1C has 450000000000 J of kinetic energy equal to ~ 240,000 pounds of TNT.) How do you plan to avoid impacts on this 40 year journey or absorb even a "small" debris hit? Given the 40 year trip you will need to "grow" your own food and have near 100% recycling. All on a 500 ton ship. You will need artificial gravity to avoid the deterioration & death of the crew. That requires a large spinning portion of the ship for crew habitat. How do you pick your destination? It will need to be suitable for human life "as found" unless you plan on teraforming the planet, using what came in a 500 ton ship. How do you find a suitable planet >4 light years away with any degree of certainty? If you get it wrong it's "end of mission". Those are just some of the technical challenges in a trip to the stars. My example 500 ton ship is way to small to cover the requirements of interstellar travel. The International Space station weighs 460 tons and has no blast shields, no gravity, no engines and does not provide replenishment food. So tell me who is hilariously naive? Locating near earth threats and having a method to deflect impacts is possible with todays technology but not with todays political and economic realities. Same goes for human interplanetary travel. Link to a technical discussion on interstellar travel - Journal of the Royal Astronomical Society Bad News: Interstellar Travel May Remain in Science Fiction Some sobering news from a recent rocket science conference: It is highly improbable that humans will ever explore beyond the Solar System. This downbeat opinion comes from the Joint Propulsion Conference in Hartford, Connecticut, where future space propulsion challenges were discussed and debated. It is widely acknowledged that any form of interstellar travel would require huge advances in technology, but it would seem that the advances required are in the realms of science fiction and are not feasible. Using current technology would take tens of thousands of years, and even advanced concepts could take hundreds. But above all else, there is the question of fuel: How could a trip to Proxima Centauri be achieved if we’d need 100 times more energy than the entire planet currently generates? In a previous article on the Universe Today, I explored how long it would take to travel to the nearest star using the slowest mode of transportation (the ion driven 1998 Deep Space 1 mission) and the fastest mode of transportation (the solar gravitational accelerated 1976 Helios 2 mission) currently available. I also discussed the theoretical possibility of using nuclear pulse propulsion (a series of fusion bombs dropped behind an interplanetary spaceship to give thrust), much like the 1970’s Daedalus star ship concept (pictured top). Unfortunately, the ion drive option would take a whopping 81,000 years to get to Proxima Centauri, our nearest star, and using the Sun for a gravitational assist would still take us at least 19,000 years to reach our destination. That is 2,700 to 600 generations, certainly a long-term commitment! To put these figures into perspective, 2,700 generations ago, homo sapiens had not developed the ability to communicate by speech; 600 generations ago the Neanderthals had only recently become extinct. The nuclear pulse propulsion option seems far better taking only 85 years to travel to our nearest star. Still, this is a very long trip (let’s hope they’d offer business class at least…). Already there are huge challenges facing the notion of travelling to Proxima Centauri, but in a recent gathering of experts in the field of space propulsion, there are even more insurmountable obstacles to mankind’s spread beyond the Solar System. In response to the idea we might make the Proxima trek in a single lifetime, Paulo Lozano, an assistant professor of aeronautics and astronautics at MIT and conference deligate said, “In those cases, you are talking about a scale of engineering that you can’t even imagine.” OK, so the speed simply isn’t there for a quick flight over 4.3 light years. But there is an even bigger problem than that. How would these interstellar spaceships be fuelled? According to Brice N. Cassenti, an associate professor with the Department of Engineering and Science at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, at least 100 times the total energy output of the entire world would be required for the voyage. “We just can’t extract the resources from the Earth,” Cassenti said during his conference presentation. “They just don’t exist. We would need to mine the outer planets.” For mankind to extend its reach into the stars, we need to come up with a better plan. Even the most advanced forms of propulsion (even anti-matter engines) cannot make the gap seem any less massive. Suddenly the thought of a warp drive seems more attractive… |
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Quoted: In your scenario nothing in our solar system would be safe. How do you suggest we get to another star system without invoking scifi technology? View Quote I will try to take this in small bites. I was replying to the scenario of a sun/black hole intruding on our solar system. As the poster of that scenario said there is ZERO recourse to prevent destruction of Earth and the rest of the solar system should that happen. What is "hilariously naive" are people thinking we can colonize another solar system with any technology known to man. Let me lay out the challenges for you. Closest star is over 4 light years away. Traveling at 0.1C is a >40 year one way trip so you will by necessity have to have a 'generational' ship if you want to colonize an exoplanet. In a previous post I showed that getting a 500 ton ship to an exoplanet @ 0.1C will require the energy equivalent of 40,000 tons of U235 assuming 100% efficiency. Where is your energy source and how do you fit it into a 500 ton ship? View Quote Our discussion of reaching out from the solar system is hilariously naive at its core but your question was funny and now you’re trying to flip the script. I still enjoy the discussion. The ship that might make such a journey will have to be a long term large, nuclear powered generational ship. Size and mass are trade offs but not necessarily liabilities. My fuel is water. It is on Ceres. It is within the realm of today’s technology to launch equipment that would be landed on Ceres, extract water from the icy crust or if feasible, the liquid ocean that may lie below the crust. It would have a fission reactor for power (today’s tech.) Mechanical power, electricity and heat are produced. Now we are extracting water and putting it into orbit. The escape velocity of Ceres is .51 km/s. We are putting ice blocks into orbit using a launch tube. The propellant would be hydrogen and oxygen created by electrolysis (using electrical power from the reactor) and launch the block outward at >1700 feet per second if my math is correct. I don’t fit it into the ship, I fit the ship into it. A ship consisting of a framework embedded into ice would be strengthened and protected by it. Traveling at 0.1C makes any debris you hit larger than a pin head a catastrophic event. (1 gram @ 0.1C has 450000000000 J of kinetic energy equal to ~ 240,000 pounds of TNT.) How do you plan to avoid impacts on this 40 year journey or absorb even a "small" debris hit? View Quote Given the 40 year trip you will need to "grow" your own food and have near 100% recycling. All on a 500 ton ship. You will need artificial gravity to avoid the deterioration & death of the crew. That requires a large spinning portion of the ship for crew habitat. How do you pick your destination? It will need to be suitable for human life "as found" unless you plan on teraforming the planet, using what came in a 500 ton ship. How do you find a suitable planet >4 light years away with any degree of certainty? If you get it wrong it's "end of mission". Those are just some of the technical challenges in a trip to the stars. My example 500 ton ship is way to small to cover the requirements of interstellar travel. The International Space station weighs 460 tons and has no blast shields, no gravity, no engines and does not provide replenishment food. So tell me who is hilariously naive? Locating near earth threats and having a method to deflect impacts is possible with todays technology but not with todays political and economic realities. Same goes for human interplanetary travel. View Quote Edit: Im going to point out your link is a scientific discussion of interplanetary travel being discussed by scientists and “hilarious” is not an accurate characterization of their treatment of the subject. Also, with respect to the above ship, larger also better accommodates a rotating section. |
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What we are lacking is the motive, and that will be found when somebody wants us to pay 1% tax on tea or we read the Zimmerman telegram or someone sinks a passenger ship or puts a beeping satellite over our heads or flies airplanes into our buildings. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
What we are lacking is the motive, and that will be found when somebody wants us to pay 1% tax on tea or we read the Zimmerman telegram or someone sinks a passenger ship or puts a beeping satellite over our heads or flies airplanes into our buildings. Quoted:
Something really big, and really fast hitting us is a low probability, high consequence event. Actually for the human race it's a fatal event. Because we don't do anything long-term. We only react to problems. If we sit around waiting for Captain Kirk to show up with the Enterprise, before we move off this planet, we're doomed. By the time we know something is heading our way, it will be too late. Kiss your species goodbye. ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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I would prefer that money be spent figuring out how to feed, clothe, shelter, and care for all the people currently on earth than spending all those resources looking to go somewhere else. I guess the plan is for those who go somewhere else to simply leave all those who aren't fed, and otherwise cared for behind. View Quote ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Space colonies are not just rich kids tooling around the bay in their billionaire daddy's multi-million dollar yacht, having a good time while the poor starve; they are a way that the ENTIRE human species can (hopefully) survive. I'm really not trying to be insulting here, really I'm not: but are you stupid? ![]() ![]() |
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This is relevant to the discussion. Now up the speeds by a factor of a million and you have a real icebreaker.
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https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/roadmap_to_interstellar_flight_tagged.pdf
Lecture video Here's a very short video on NASA's 360 channel. ![]() Going Interstellar We have the technology, right now, to send unmanned probes out, at relativistic speeds. Basically, we can reach Alpha Centauri in 15 years. If we decided to do it. |
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This is relevant to the discussion. Now up the speeds by a factor of a million and you have a real icebreaker. View Quote That would be like angling armor to deflect a bullet. Never been done before. |
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![]() 10 Unsettling Solutions to the Fermi Paradox |
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I honestly cannot understand people like you. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Space colonies are not just rich kids tooling around the bay in their billionaire daddy's multi-million dollar yacht, having a good time while the poor starve; they are a way that the ENTIRE human species can (hopefully) survive. I'm really not trying to be insulting here, really I'm not: but are you stupid? ![]() ![]() View Quote |
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Quoted: Pretty neat. We should shoot those bb's at a metal cone with a narrow angle, to test how well the bb's can be deflected. Lets use the same sheet aluminum as the HDD's. That would be like angling armor to deflect a bullet. Never been done before. View Quote Israeli tanks had a type of armor that resisted armor piercing by using 2 layers electrified that basically shorted and turned the penetrator to plasma between them. The same principle might be useful here. Then you are dealing with molecules or gas instead of solid particles and the energy is diffused against your hull. |
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Why would we need to out our minds out in the universe, when the universe already created us?
The very molecules that make up your body, the atoms that construct the molecules, are traceable to the crucibles that were once the centers of high mass stars that exploded their chemically rich guts into the galaxy, enriching pristine gas clouds with the chemistry of life. So that we are all connected to each other biologically, to the earth chemically and to the rest of the universe atomically. |
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Why would we need to out our minds out in the universe, when the universe already created us? The very molecules that make up your body, the atoms that construct the molecules, are traceable to the crucibles that were once the centers of high mass stars that exploded their chemically rich guts into the galaxy, enriching pristine gas clouds with the chemistry of life. So that we are all connected to each other biologically, to the earth chemically and to the rest of the universe atomically. View Quote ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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Agreed. We should be on Mars already. View Quote Earth will be the domain of sensitive, gynocentric SJW's. |
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I actually think it will be easy once we start. If you look at what was developed in a short time to reach the moon it was amazing.
If we had continued at that place we would be on Mars today! Yes there would have been growing pains. |
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"Space elevators" (basically trains into space) are the answer to your needs to boost boku freight up into space... which is what we really need to make space exploration a reality (same as how trains were really "how the West was won" against the Injuns, not the 1873 Winchester, the "gun that won the West"
![]() ![]() ![]() Space Elevators & Orbital Tethers |
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I would genuinely be proud af if my great grandchildren conquered a planet
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![]() Life in a Space Colony, ep2: Colony Spaceships |
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as a whole, "we" eat tide pods for inta-twitter likes.....and we have shit holes left in this world
No |
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"Space elevators" (basically trains into space) are the answer to your needs to boost boku freight up into space... which is what we really need to make space exploration a reality (same as how trains were really "how the West was won" against the Injuns, not the 1873 Winchester, the "gun that won the West" ![]() ![]() ![]() View Quote It would be much more feasible on the moon though. There are some really interesting things you can do with tethers, but I think technology has moved in a direction where they don't make much sense anymore. |
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Quoted: It's REALLY hard to make an elevator work in Earth's gravity well. I mean so hard it's almost certainly cheaper to lift everything we need to build everything we need in space with BFRs. You not only need exotic materials but you need a LOT of exotic materials and you need to replace those materials constantly and the benefit over really well-developed heavy lift like we'll have long before we can build an elevator is minimal at best. It's also incredibly risky and vulnerable to terror and such, a space elevator crashing to Earth would be a catastrophe just because of how much it costs to build one. Maybe in the far future. It would be much more feasible on the moon though. There are some really interesting things you can do with tethers, but I think technology has moved in a direction where they don't make much sense anymore. View Quote |
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Cheap heavy lift is very close.
Falcon Heavy is here. BFR and New Glenn will be very soon. They are enough to make a whole heck of a lot of in space business ventures viable. The key businesses I refer to are asteroid Mining, asteroid Refining, and Manufacturing. You only need to get enough Mass up off the Earth to get these three businesses started... and then they will be self supporting and replicating. Once they're up... you don't need any more mass from Earth (except people). You can build everything you need from then on using resources in space. There's so much there for the taking that we would be shipping stuff to Earth not the other way around. The Moon is a perfect place to build refineries and manufacturing plants. Direct asteroid to hit in a designated impact zone... collect the pieces and refine them into materials to use to make anything and everything. Launch using the proven reusable rockets we can build from the very low gravity the Moon has and send goods down to Earth or to moon orbiting ship yards or anywhere else you need things to go. |
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Cheap heavy lift is very close. Falcon Heavy is here. BFR and New Glenn will be very soon. They are enough to make a whole heck of a lot of in space business ventures viable. The key businesses I refer to are asteroid Mining, asteroid Refining, and Manufacturing. You only need to get enough Mass up off the Earth to get these three businesses started... and then they will be self supporting and replicating. Once they're up... you don't need any more mass from Earth (except people). You can build everything you need from then on using resources in space. There's so much there for the taking that we would be shipping stuff to Earth not the other way around. The Moon is a perfect place to build refineries and manufacturing plants. Direct asteroid to hit in a designated impact zone... collect the pieces and refine them into materials to use to make anything and everything. Launch using the proven reusable rockets we can build from the very low gravity the Moon has and send good down to Earth or to moon orbiting ship yards or anywhere else you need things to go. View Quote ![]() BO has yet to put a single pound into orbit. That shit is a decade behind SpaceX. |
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Quoted: ![]() BO has yet to put a single pound into orbit. That shit is a decade behind SpaceX. View Quote I expect both schedules will slip... and Heck BFR could slip too... They're all in a dead heat to launch around the same time. But only BFR and New Glenn hold any promise of affordable mass to orbit. |
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Cheap heavy lift is very close. Falcon Heavy is here. BFR and New Glenn will be very soon. They are enough to make a whole heck of a lot of in space business ventures viable. The key businesses I refer to are asteroid Mining, asteroid Refining, and Manufacturing. You only need to get enough Mass up off the Earth to get these three businesses started... and then they will be self supporting and replicating. Once they're up... you don't need any more mass from Earth (except people). You can build everything you need from then on using resources in space. There's so much there for the taking that we would be shipping stuff to Earth not the other way around. The Moon is a perfect place to build refineries and manufacturing plants. Direct asteroid to hit in a designated impact zone... collect the pieces and refine them into materials to use to make anything and everything. Launch using the proven reusable rockets we can build from the very low gravity the Moon has and send goods down to Earth or to moon orbiting ship yards or anywhere else you need things to go. View Quote ![]() |
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Yeah, we're awesome. http://www.borgenmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/10-Largest-refugee-camps.jpg View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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And yet the Earth has 7 billion people, areas of desert that are now lush, and there are sprawling cities all over the globe. Whoever wrote that movie was a dumbass. http://www.borgenmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/10-Largest-refugee-camps.jpg |
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