What is a PDW? Lets discuss (Page 2 of 2)
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Originally Posted By PieterCoetzee: How'bout you call them CDWs or Civilian Defense Weapons. THEN you can use whatever you think fits your role and wont be accused of using the wrong locker room (sarcasm) I'll keep calling them PDWs because it is by far the best definition of the type of gun we are talking about in the PDW thread, as something more than an EDC handgun and less than a carbine. I'll compromise though. Since you insist a PDW can only be something that fits the NATO request from the 80s that didn't even use the term PDW or lead to an actual contract and issued standard, you can use the term Pedantic Defensive Weapons for your narrow definition, and we will use Personal Defensive Weapons for the guns we're talking about used to actually defend people and everyone can keep using the initials how they see fit. 
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Originally Posted By Aimless: You're calling each other names at 8 on a sunday in a thread about ancient rome. smiley_freak.gif
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Originally Posted By ROCK6: D/296 laid out specific requirements for new round and weapons. Compact, with an overall length no greater than an average soldier’s should width (approximately 50cm/20in) Capable of defeating CRISAT-standard soft body armor at 200 meters Better range and accuracy than the 9mm round The shoulder-fired PDW had to weigh less than 3kg/6.6lbs with a magazine capacity of at least 20 rounds The handheld PDW had to weigh less than 1kg/2.2lbs with a magazine capacity of at least 20 rounds Both PDWs had to be compact enough to be carried “hands-free” by a soldier at all times, whether in a vehicle, aircraft cockpit, or when doing their normal job What Makes a PDW a PDW Strip away the brand names and the history, and the PDW reduces to five functional traits: Compact Form Shorter overall length than a standard carbine. Operable in confined spaces like vehicle interiors, stairwells, doorways. Transportable in a bag, case, or on the body without significantly impeding other work. Greater Capability Than a Handgun Longer effective range, improved accuracy through additional contact points, longer sight radius, and higher magazine capacity. Defensive Orientation PDWs are built for reactive engagements. The user’s primary mission is something other than combat and their defensive tool needs to be ready when required without impeding how they move, work, or carry. Rapid Deployment The weapon needs to go from carried to ready faster than a slung carbine allows, and in more situations than a holstered pistol permits Portability and Concealment as Priorities Portability and concealment are intentional design aspects of PDWs, not afterthoughts. A weapons platform that meets the first four criteria but requires a dedicated rifle case is not a PDW. What a PDW is Not A PDW is not a primary combat weapon. It’s not intended to be a standard-issue infantry rifle. Compared to a standard service rifle, a PDW lacks range and terminal performance, but that’s an intentional tradeoff for all the traits listed above. Understanding those trade-offs is much more useful than pretending they don’t exist. PDW or CDW, doesn't matter, it can be what ever you need it to be. It's not a legal term, so GD can't sue you  ROCK6 Great breakdown, IMO. The general requirements come close to what we've talked about in the PDW thread as well, other than "better than 9mm" and "defeating body armor at 200y". Under 20 inches, less than 6.6 lbs and magazine capacity of at least 20 rounds fits most of the stuff actually used as PDWs, from Fluxs to MP5ks to MCX Rattlers. |
Originally Posted By Aimless: You're calling each other names at 8 on a sunday in a thread about ancient rome. smiley_freak.gif
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Originally Posted By PieterCoetzee: Mine in BOLD Expand the quote for my full comments How'bout you call them CDWs or Civilian Defense Weapons. THEN you can use whatever you think fits your role and wont be accused of using the wrong locker room (sarcasm) And then the common, applicable-to-anyone term can be Personal Defense Weapon. As I am a person, and it's a weapon I choose to defend myself with. ezpz |
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Originally Posted By yamahawarrior89: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/372855/1000006720_jpg-3830279.JPG PDW's should be 308  Yes. |
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50+ pages of PDW discussion https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/A-mostly-peaceful-election-year-Let-s-talk-PDWs-v2-0/5-2730988/ |
Greatest PDW ad ever: Introducing the Flux Defense Raider 365 |
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To answer the question without turning into a circle jerk where everyone presents their favorite implementation, we need to write a performance specification. It needs to define the characteristics of the weapon. Overall size and weight Terminal performance Ballistics Barrier/armor performance For a military arm, the specification needs to consider supply chain: will we introduce a new caliber, or adapt a weapon to an existing caliber? We are defining a weapon that can be carried full time by support troops whose daily tasks might involve driving vehicles and equipment, servicing those machines, aircraft operations, clerical work, anything where a burdensome weapon becomes a liability. Now before everyone gets up in arms, know that I just made up these figures. As a starting point let's go with: The weapon will be capable of shoulder-supported fire A stock can be implemented, of folding, collapsible, or fixed design. This does not exclude bullpup designs Overall length, with stock stowed: 16 inches Weight with full ammunition load: 4 pounds Effective range: 200 m (how do we define this?) Ammunition capacity: not less than 20 rounds Aiming system: iron sights or optics. The aiming system must be demonstrated to the weapon's effective range, including any needed ballistics hold over Accuracy: 1.5 MOA mean radius |
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Originally Posted By 9D1Alpha: So , is "P" for personal , or is it really for personnel ? I've always seen it as "Personal" as is in "individual trooper" ROCK6 |
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants" - Thomas Jefferson
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Is the original specification or solicitation that HK and FN designs fulfilled available? ETA: google thinks it's classified or never publicly published. It provided a link to the trials documentation: https://www.scribd.com/document/726642973/Report-on-Future-PDW-Caliber-Assessment |
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Originally Posted By PieterCoetzee: Of course you will. Now take the male and female off bathroom doors because thats being too precise.  What a lucid and mature rebuttal. |
Originally Posted By Aimless: You're calling each other names at 8 on a sunday in a thread about ancient rome. smiley_freak.gif
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Originally Posted By ROCK6: I've always seen it as "Personal" as is in "individual trooper" ROCK6 Originally Posted By ROCK6: Originally Posted By 9D1Alpha: So , is "P" for personal , or is it really for personnel ? I've always seen it as "Personal" as is in "individual trooper" ROCK6 The document I just linked uses "personal" |
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Originally Posted By TNC: The document I just linked uses "personal" Originally Posted By TNC: Originally Posted By ROCK6: Originally Posted By 9D1Alpha: So , is "P" for personal , or is it really for personnel ? I've always seen it as "Personal" as is in "individual trooper" ROCK6 The document I just linked uses "personal" That being NATO . If you go to a different organization like DHS , they have room for M4s in somewhat of an "other" categorization. So , one agency/organization can/will vary from one to another. So whatever a PDW is depends on whatever the interpretation is by the adopter. |
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My humble contribution: Attached File 11.5" 5.56 AR-15 pistol. With the sights folded and the light removed, it fits in an ice fishing case (magazine inserted). The light is stored in a side pouch with a coin to tighten the screw. The sling is secured to the side with two short paracord segments. It doesn't really interfere with operation when it is stowed, and all that's needed to let it loose is to tug on the loose ends of the strings and the sling becomes fully useable. The rest of the paracord wrap helps insulate exposed skin from hot or cold aluminum. The muzzle device is a Simple Threaded Devices linear compensator. I wish that they still made them. I've driven several hours at a time with this at my side. Did that a few times back in 2020. |
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Originally Posted By 74novaman: What a lucid and mature rebuttal. Of course it is, you just dont like what it says. Once you begin to blur language and definitions were do you stop. IF words dont have meaning then we cant communicate. |
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Originally Posted By PieterCoetzee: Of course it is, you just dont like what it says. Once you begin to blur language and definitions were do you stop. IF words dont have meaning then we cant communicate. The term you're looking for is "where do you stop". Not "were do you stop". As long as we're being extra particular about words having meaning, you should strive to use the correct ones when you attempt to communicate. Either way, deliberately pretending to not understand what someone means when they call a Flux Raider or a Sig Rattler a PDW because it doesn't fit a very narrow definition from a failed NATO trial from 30 years ago is tiresome. Everyone else seems to not struggle with the concept that a PDW means "less than a carbine, more than an EDC" in terms of gun ownership and use. Enjoy being pedantic for the sake of pedantry I suppose. |
Originally Posted By Aimless: You're calling each other names at 8 on a sunday in a thread about ancient rome. smiley_freak.gif
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Originally Posted By 74novaman: The term you're looking for is "where do you stop". Not "were do you stop". As long as we're being extra particular about words having meaning, you should strive to use the correct ones when you attempt to communicate. Either way, deliberately pretending to not understand what someone means when they call a Flux Raider or a Sig Rattler a PDW because it doesn't fit a very narrow definition from a failed NATO trial from 30 years ago is tiresome. Everyone else seems to not struggle with the concept that a PDW means "less than a carbine, more than an EDC" in terms of gun ownership and use. Enjoy being pedantic for the sake of pedantry I suppose. Fair enough you caught my typo; but saying a "PDW means "less than a carbine, more than an EDC" leaves out the armor piercing requirement, which was/is a major requirement. I have no problem with SMGs, Honey Badgers, FLUX type weapons. I think they have great value for civilians; but I also suggest that the ability to defeat armor plates remains an important characteristic of a PDW. |
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Nice. |
