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Posted: 12/12/2021 11:48:34 PM EDT
 What the Magi Mean to Christmas |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 12:58:33 AM EDT
[#1]
Kind of sloppy language to say Jesus was "created by God in Mary's womb."
Jesus IS God, and He is co-eternal with the Father, "begottan, not made," who "came down from heaven and was incarnate." He took flesh in Mary's womb (from Mary) and became man, but he was never "created." That's Arianism, and it's a heresy. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 3:05:24 AM EDT
[#2]
Have read that there were many messiahs, some deliberate frauds, some just well intentioned, and several real ones. Each of the real ones was to have a 'power', each different. A community sent out searchers (the Magi) to attempt to find and confirm each one. At least that's one of the stories from that time period.
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Posted: 12/13/2021 10:11:57 AM EDT
[#3]
If MacArthur was Roman Catholic or Orthodox, there would be a whole lot of "where's that in the Bible" being posted in this thread.
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Posted: 12/13/2021 10:56:32 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If MacArthur was Roman Catholic or Orthodox, there would be a whole lot of "where's that in the Bible" being posted in this thread. I like to ask Lutherans and Calvinists about the perpetual virginity of Mary since both of those guys didn’t question it. I’m looking in my Bible but i must be missing it. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 11:48:22 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I like to ask Lutherans and Calvinists about the perpetual virginity of Mary since both of those guys didn’t question it. I’m looking in my Bible but i must be missing it. It's in Ezekiel 44. "The man then brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary that faced east, but it was shut. And the LORD said to me, “This gate is to remain shut. It shall not be opened, and no man shall enter through it, because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it. Therefore it will remain shut." |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 10:42:09 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Kind of sloppy language to say Jesus was "created by God in Mary's womb." Jesus IS God, and He is co-eternal with the Father, "begottan, not made," who "came down from heaven and was incarnate." He took flesh in Mary's womb (from Mary) and became man, but he was never "created." That's Arianism, and it's a heresy. Sorry to have triggered you, could you be more specific when JM was speaking fast and loose with the word of God |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 11:53:41 PM EDT
[#7]
4:11 and following.
"He is created in the womb of Mary by God Himself through the work of the Holy Spirit." Christ was not "created." |
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Posted: 12/15/2021 12:01:26 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 4:11 and following. "He is created in the womb of Mary by God Himself through the work of the Holy Spirit." Christ was not "created." Yes, scripture says that, I agree.. You really have to be careful in who you worship, idolize, etc... eternity is a awful long time...  |
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Posted: 12/15/2021 10:22:23 AM EDT
[#9]
Arianism is a heresy. Google it.
The Son of God is eternal. If you believe the Son is a created being, you are in danger of Hell. I mean that sincerely and with kindness. I'm not being an edgy internet tough guy. |
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Posted: 12/15/2021 4:58:33 PM EDT
[#10]
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Posted: 12/15/2021 7:05:29 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you believe the Son is a created being, you are in danger of Hell. I don't recall teachings to that effect by any of the scriptural witness. |
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Posted: 12/15/2021 7:12:05 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't recall teachings to that effect by any of the scriptural witness. "Before Abraham was, I AM." |
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Posted: 12/15/2021 7:36:11 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "Before Abraham was, I AM." Did you look up the scripture reference Jesus made in his previous sentence to set the context? It would seem important that when Jesus cites a scripture, you should read and understand it. Given that context, who is Jesus claiming to be with the claim that "I am he"? Secondly, where does this "hell" thingamawatzit fit into the picture? You really didn't establish the claim "If you believe the Son is a created being, you are in danger of Hell" or you will need to explain how you are interpreting the single phrase taken out of its context. |
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Posted: 12/15/2021 8:17:31 PM EDT
[#14]
I have made the warning.
I don't need to prove it. You need to examine yourself and find out why you oppose all of Christianity's teaching for 2000 years. This isn't an arfcom pissing contest to see who can post the best zinger. I've got nothing more to say than to urge you to look into it and repent. |
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Posted: 12/15/2021 9:40:14 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have made the warning. I don't need to prove it. You need to examine yourself and find out why you oppose all of Christianity's teaching for 2000 years. This isn't an arfcom pissing contest to see who can post the best zinger. I've got nothing more to say than to urge you to look into it and repent. Accepting a doctrine out of fear of some punishment or because other people believe it, is about the worst two possible justifications for accepting a doctrine as true. The creator made sure we had plenty of material to understand who he is and what he is about. The question that should be asked is whether the doctrine being proposed is one of "Christianity's teachings" or is God's teaching. People should feel free to reject the former if it disagrees with the latter. |
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Posted: 12/16/2021 12:00:03 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Accepting a doctrine out of fear of some punishment or because other people believe it, is about the worst two possible justifications for accepting a doctrine as true. The creator made sure we had plenty of material to understand who he is and what he is about. The question that should be asked is whether the doctrine being proposed is one of "Christianity's teachings" or is God's teaching. People should feel free to reject the former if it disagrees with the latter. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I have made the warning. I don't need to prove it. You need to examine yourself and find out why you oppose all of Christianity's teaching for 2000 years. This isn't an arfcom pissing contest to see who can post the best zinger. I've got nothing more to say than to urge you to look into it and repent. Accepting a doctrine out of fear of some punishment or because other people believe it, is about the worst two possible justifications for accepting a doctrine as true. The creator made sure we had plenty of material to understand who he is and what he is about. The question that should be asked is whether the doctrine being proposed is one of "Christianity's teachings" or is God's teaching. People should feel free to reject the former if it disagrees with the latter. For the reasons you just gave is why you should KNOW Jesus was not created, and that He IS God. |
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Posted: 12/16/2021 7:31:31 AM EDT
[#17]
By the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the virgin Mary and became man.
ETA (bow your head) |
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Posted: 12/16/2021 8:44:09 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: By the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the virgin Mary and became man. ETA (bow your head) He was already God. |
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Posted: 12/16/2021 1:38:54 PM EDT
[#19]
John
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Consubstantial. Uncreated. Begotten, not Made. One in Being with the Father. |
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Posted: 12/16/2021 3:09:46 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. Quote HistoryQuoted: John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. I have no idea what you are trying to make of this text. Can you clarify? What does the noun "Word" refer to, and what does the noun "God" refer to? For example are you saying "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with the Father and Jesus was the Father"? Quoted: 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Consubstantial. Uncreated. Begotten, not Made. One in Being with the Father. Begotten literally means "brought into existence". At one time the thing didn't exist and then it was brought into existence. Your claims appear to be self contradictory. To me the passage is clear, God's logos was made flesh. And the logos made flesh is Jesus. The uniquely begotten son of the father, a brother to many sons and daughters who are also begotten of God. A son that didn't exist before, now exists and he is full of grace and truth. |
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Posted: 12/16/2021 3:23:42 PM EDT
[#21]
Anathema.
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Posted: 12/16/2021 6:10:23 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have no idea what you are trying to make of this text. Can you clarify? What does the noun "Word" refer to, and what does the noun "God" refer to? For example are you saying "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with the Father and Jesus was the Father"? Begotten literally means "brought into existence". At one time the thing didn't exist and then it was brought into existence. Your claims appear to be self contradictory. To me the passage is clear, God's logos was made flesh. And the logos made flesh is Jesus. The uniquely begotten son of the father, a brother to many sons and daughters who are also begotten of God. A son that didn't exist before, now exists and he is full of grace and truth. Quote HistoryQuoted: I have no idea what you are trying to make of this text. Can you clarify? What does the noun "Word" refer to, and what does the noun "God" refer to? For example are you saying "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with the Father and Jesus was the Father"? Begotten literally means "brought into existence". At one time the thing didn't exist and then it was brought into existence. Your claims appear to be self contradictory. To me the passage is clear, God's logos was made flesh. And the logos made flesh is Jesus. The uniquely begotten son of the father, a brother to many sons and daughters who are also begotten of God. A son that didn't exist before, now exists and he is full of grace and truth. Your position, as outlined above, is literally Arianism (Christ was made, within Time and thus not co-eternal, is distinct from, and therefore subordinate to, the Father). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism That doctrine has long been utterly rejected by Christians: We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; -The Nicene Creed. (385 AD). Without meaning to pry....can I ask if you are a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness? Both of which adopted (modified) Arianism, and as such are not considered "Christian" in the usual sense (that is, Nicene Christianity, which label covers everyone from Primitive Baptist to Russian Orthodox to Anglican). |
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Posted: 12/16/2021 6:19:23 PM EDT
[#23]
@Jesus
This should clear things up. |
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Posted: 12/16/2021 7:38:12 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your position, as outlined above, is literally Arianism (Christ was made, within Time and thus not co-eternal, is distinct from, and therefore subordinate to, the Father). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism That doctrine has long been utterly rejected by Christians: -The Nicene Creed. (385 AD). Quote HistoryQuoted: Your position, as outlined above, is literally Arianism (Christ was made, within Time and thus not co-eternal, is distinct from, and therefore subordinate to, the Father). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism That doctrine has long been utterly rejected by Christians: -The Nicene Creed. (385 AD). I'm well aware of the 4th century creeds. As I stated earlier: The question that should be asked is whether the doctrine being proposed is one of "Christianity's teachings" or is God's teaching. People should feel free to reject the former if it disagrees with the latter. The passage you cited says Jesus is begotten. The word "begotten" means "brought into being". If your doctrine directly contradicts the passage you cite to support your doctrine, then I suggest that the doctrine needs to be rejected. Quoted: Without meaning to pry....can I ask if you are a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness? Both of which adopted (modified) Arianism, and as such are not considered "Christian" in the usual sense (that is, Nicene Christianity, which label covers everyone from Primitive Baptist to Russian Orthodox to Anglican). To answer your question directly: No. Definitely meaning to pry. . . can I ask, why is it when I ask about the scriptures offered to promote a particular doctrine (i.e. John 8:58 and John 1:1-2,14), the response is to pronounce doom ("anathema", "danger of hell") or ask about me (am I a "Mormon" or "Jehovah's' Witness") as an obvious dodge? |
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Posted: 12/16/2021 8:00:28 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm well aware of the 4th century creeds. As I stated earlier: The question that should be asked is whether the doctrine being proposed is one of "Christianity's teachings" or is God's teaching. People should feel free to reject the former if it disagrees with the latter. The passage you cited says Jesus is begotten. The word "begotten" means "brought into being". If your doctrine directly contradicts the passage you cite to support your doctrine, then I suggest that the doctrine needs to be rejected. Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm well aware of the 4th century creeds. As I stated earlier: The question that should be asked is whether the doctrine being proposed is one of "Christianity's teachings" or is God's teaching. People should feel free to reject the former if it disagrees with the latter. The passage you cited says Jesus is begotten. The word "begotten" means "brought into being". If your doctrine directly contradicts the passage you cite to support your doctrine, then I suggest that the doctrine needs to be rejected. The "begotten" part is from the Creed, and is addressing the fact that, even though Christ was "born of the Virgin Mary", that doesn't mean he was a "made" creature, like you or I. He, as the opening passages of John state, existed from before Time, with the Father and being of the Father ("the Word was with God, and the Word was God"). The "begotten" part is referring to his Incarnating in human form. Et verbum caro factum est/and the Word was made flesh. To answer your question directly: No. Definitely meaning to pry. . . can I ask, why is it when I ask about the scriptures offered to promote a particular doctrine (i.e. John 8:58 and John 1:1-2,14), the response is to pronounce doom ("anathema", "danger of hell") or ask about me (am I a "Mormon" or "Jehovah's' Witness") as an obvious dodge? In this case (and, BTW, you were free to tell me to bug off on any personal inquiry....that's why I couched it as such), knowing if someone is from a community that has a significantly different Christological understanding is vitally important, lest we simply start yelling past each other with the theological equivalents of "LESS FILLING!"/"TASTES GREAT!". A Mormon, who holds to the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, explicitly rejects the concept of the Trinity and is never, ever, ever going to reach any agreement of Christ's nature with anyone from Nicene Christianity. Since your stated proposition was essentially the textbook definition of Arianism, it made me wonder if your theological background was coming from a Nontrinitarian source. |
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Posted: 12/17/2021 1:21:46 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The "begotten" part is from the Creed, and is addressing the fact that, even though Christ was "born of the Virgin Mary", that doesn't mean he was a "made" creature, like you or I. He, as the opening passages of John state, existed from before Time, with the Father and being of the Father ("the Word was with God, and the Word was God"). The "begotten" part is referring to his Incarnating in human form. Et verbum caro factum est/and the Word was made flesh. Quote HistoryQuoted: The "begotten" part is from the Creed, and is addressing the fact that, even though Christ was "born of the Virgin Mary", that doesn't mean he was a "made" creature, like you or I. He, as the opening passages of John state, existed from before Time, with the Father and being of the Father ("the Word was with God, and the Word was God"). The "begotten" part is referring to his Incarnating in human form. Et verbum caro factum est/and the Word was made flesh. I understand these to be the creedal assertions 250 years or so after the apostolic witness. In one creed Jesus is said to be "begotten, not made", which strikes me as either neglecting the fact that the saints are also "begotten of God", or needing one definition of the word "begotten" for Jesus and another for the saints. In that same vein, like you I understand the word "God" to be a co-referring term with "the Father", but the creedal formulation has the word "God" refer to something else. Quoted: In this case (and, BTW, you were free to tell me to bug off on any personal inquiry....that's why I couched it as such), knowing if someone is from a community that has a significantly different Christological understanding is vitally important, lest we simply start yelling past each other with the theological equivalents of "LESS FILLING!"/"TASTES GREAT!". As such, Christians should behave as Christians are called to behave. |
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Posted: 12/17/2021 1:46:22 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As such, Christians should behave as Christians are called to behave. Indeed. "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed." |
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Posted: 12/17/2021 3:06:34 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Indeed. "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed." The question under contention in passage you are quoting (i.e. Gal 1) was which covenant contains the gospel and how do you obtain the things promised in the covenant? The two covenants in the debate were were the Covenant with Abraham, and the Covenant of the Law (See Gal 3). Paul explains that it is undoubtedly the covenant with Abraham (Gal 3:8) and concludes that the pathway into obtaining those promises is "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.". I'm not sure how this relates to any of the discussions thus far, but it is good to contemplate what the gospel is, what was promised, and how to obtain the things promised. 
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Posted: 12/17/2021 9:55:11 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To answer your question directly: No. You have something to hide. |
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Posted: 12/17/2021 11:41:46 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Arianism is a heresy. Google it. The Son of God is eternal. If you believe the Son is a created being, you are in danger of Hell. I mean that sincerely and with kindness. I'm not being an edgy internet tough guy. The Human Son of God that was created in the womb of Mary, yes , created by God/HS Mary did not have physical intercourse with God or the HS...?? right... So how did Jesus develop in her womb..?? Mary could not produce Jesus by her own physical resources.. Who gave the world the sacrifice that redeemed/covered all sin for those who believed OT revelations...?? John 3:16 Some scripture is not exploding with details that would satisfy all questions asked concerning the pregnancy of Christ but some scripture is void with those details for Godly reasons I assume. I can accept Sola Scriptura, leads me to accept the KISS concept of scripture, what was revealed by the prophets in the OT and fullfilled in the NT Luke 11 verse 28.... Jesus said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” With Sola Scriptura I dont have to defend any denominations beliefs |
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Posted: 12/17/2021 11:46:56 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Consubstantial. Uncreated. Begotten, not Made. One in Being with the Father. This is pretty basic stuff. It's hilarious we have people arguing against it. |
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Posted: 12/18/2021 2:12:07 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: With Sola Scriptura I dont have to defend any denominations beliefs ....except the denomination that taught you to adhere to Sola Scriptura.  Generally, at this point in history, all but the truly crazy interpretations of scripture are taught by tradition (or Tradition, if you're Catholic or Orthodox), not derived from independent study of Scripture (although many deny this inconvenient fact, starting with Luther, who tolerated no guff from folks who wouldn't follow his interpretation of Scripture). Even "nondenominational" Christians still follow what they've been taught that Scripture means in most particular cases (and, when there's a disagreement about what a particular item means, a new Protestant sect is born!). |
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Posted: 12/18/2021 1:43:34 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is pretty basic stuff. It's hilarious we have people arguing against it. The scripture part of is pretty basic stuff. The logical contradiction in the other part, not so much. 
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