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Link Posted: 10/15/2024 10:24:33 PM EDT
[#1]
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Originally Posted By jwnc:
OP has caught on to what's been going on for over a decade. since the dawn of time.  
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fixt
Link Posted: 10/15/2024 10:25:00 PM EDT
[#2]
I have trouble finding attorneys to hire regardless of age or experience

I’m finding a lot of support staff and paralegals, but some need to do a lot of growing up.
Link Posted: 10/15/2024 10:25:10 PM EDT
[#3]
Depends on the field.  It's a growing problem in IT related fields.  Who needs a highly paid, competent older White guy when you can snatch a young DEI hire (especially overseas) for 1/3 to 1/2 the cost and try to train him to be only fractionally as good?

Not so much in more traditional engineering disciplines, where experience is highly valued and your skillset doesn't become obsolete every 3 years.  Most of the senior managers are in their 50s or even 60s, although many engineers plan their lives well enough to comfortably retire before hitting their 60s, so they are becoming less common. There is also the issue of having credibility when presenting proposals and reports to clients.  Snot noses don't have it....
Link Posted: 10/15/2024 10:28:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Rheinmetall792] [#4]
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Originally Posted By Gelandewagen:



Absolutely.

And the endless cycle of downgrading jobs.

Your Director gets promoted or leaves? We post it as a Sr. Manager and 1/2 the pay.

Also, the DEI hiring managers get a green light for rampant Nepotism. Business Unit VP is Indian? 12 months later his whole staff is Indian.

Quality manager is Latina? Somehow all her people become Latina over a few years.

Instead of being frowned on, this gets celebrated.
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One of the regional leaders in my company is Indian and pushing the idea of us using more and more remote workers.........in India.  And guess what?  Turns out he owns a stake in one of the companies in India, so he has more than one ulterior motive.  I told him we'd consider it if the need arises (but my real answer is no thanks).
Link Posted: 10/15/2024 10:28:39 PM EDT
[#5]
Meh.

I’m closer to 60 than 50.

From 45 to 55 I was number one most of the time, always second or top three greater than 90th percentile in a group of about 50 in a field with average cognitive ability 1.5sd above the mean in the most challenging location in the state, typically within the top ten in the nation.  The other two power players were also middle aged white males.  The up and coming guys that were going to crush it were also pushing 40 or over 40 white or Asian males.

With the final kid finishing college and getting married I took a position with a less stressful organization but better pension/retirement.
I dropped from being a one percenter to a 2 percenter. But got 40K in bonuses.
Two years later I got a small raise.  A month or two latter than that another16K raise.  Then another month or two and another 22K raise on top of that.  Plus the 40K in bonuses again.
(Correction, I lost 3K of the 40K in bonuses for not going to any meetings.)
I just launch an email quarterly with findings and state the meetings are irrelevant.
I get paid between 16 hours a month to 26 to 36 hours a month to launch that email.

I do totally bust ass in house about 1500 hours a year though.

I’m not saving my current and previous organizations are not desperate for younger, non-male, non-white, non north-Asian  superstars.  They just don’t have any and can’t find any.
Link Posted: 10/15/2024 10:38:10 PM EDT
[#6]
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Originally Posted By Colt1860:
That's weird because we're told that older people work so much harder.  
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Depends on the job I think. Before I quit running cable for a living I noticed that I was slowing down once I got into my late 50's.  Of course my vast experience allowed me to more than make up for that slowness with efficiency and complete my tasks faster when compared to the younger bucks who would always waste a lot of time and effort FAFOing their way through every job.

Link Posted: 10/15/2024 10:44:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Mike_48] [#7]
Deleted

Link Posted: 10/15/2024 10:52:53 PM EDT
[#8]
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Originally Posted By Happy_Hour_Hero:
Anybody that hasn’t looked for higher pay as a new hire in the last 4 years has a good chance of being paid less than new hires, regardless of either’s age
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I don't get it, people will stay at the same place for many years losing money doing it.
Link Posted: 10/15/2024 11:20:44 PM EDT
[#9]
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Originally Posted By manderson1911:
I am GenX and I hope they dont lump me in the worthless boomers we hate them too.
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I hope not either.
Link Posted: 10/15/2024 11:24:40 PM EDT
[#10]
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Originally Posted By Trout_Hunter:
Do you have any idea when email started being used regularly? This is for those over 40. Not those over 70.
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1983 for me. I’ll be 69 on Friday
Link Posted: 10/15/2024 11:27:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SGT_Tentpeg] [#11]
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Originally Posted By wganz:

1983 for me. I’ll be 69 on Friday
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Originally Posted By wganz:
Originally Posted By Trout_Hunter:
Do you have any idea when email started being used regularly? This is for those over 40. Not those over 70.

1983 for me. I’ll be 69 on Friday


1985 for me at Digital Equipment Corporation, with seven years of sending radio teletype messages with paper tape and punch cards before that in the army.  I'll be 65 in a couple of months..
Link Posted: 10/15/2024 11:29:17 PM EDT
[#12]
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Originally Posted By UTex86:


I’m not 40 yet but this is where I’m at. Oddly enough I’m one of the OGs in the office based on tenure. We are a young office and the top territory by far.

None of the headaches of management and uncapped income based on my production.

If I retire in this role that’s fine with me.
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Yep.  From now until 65 I have nothing but upside.  I feel very lucky.  
Link Posted: 10/15/2024 11:31:38 PM EDT
[#13]
I bet their Teams is set for Do Not Disturb from 9am until 5pm.

Kharn
Link Posted: 10/15/2024 11:36:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: W_E_G] [#14]
I'm supposed to get my first Social Security check in 30 days.

I'll be rolling in it!

And doing creepy stuff with the nephews (just kidding)

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 10/15/2024 11:51:46 PM EDT
[#15]
I run a small financial services firm and just finished expanding our software development team by 2 people.

Honestly, I would be just as likely to interview someone with 5 years or 15 years of experience.

Having said that, from the candidates that I saw, it was the younger ones who impressed me the most with their communication skills, recent and relevant knowledge and pace of adoption and problem solving.

I think IT/software will continue to be a young person's game.
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 12:00:44 AM EDT
[#16]
Elder Millennial here, ageism isn't an issue for me but I've kept up with technology.

I'm known around the office as the guy who can open an attachment, and I also know how to use what the younger generation call a "short cut"

Just a little trick for you older millennials, if you hold down the C-tarl button and the C button (the trick is to do this at the same time) you can avoid having to use the mouse to copy other people's work.
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 12:02:38 AM EDT
[#17]
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Originally Posted By Subpar:
Huh.  

I figured I got passed over for promotion because I’m a loser with a skinny wiener.  Maybe it was age related though.
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You may be entitled to compensation
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 12:04:26 AM EDT
[#18]
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Originally Posted By bullsi191145:
Ageism is real, and it will happen to you at some point.

I saw a department get gutted by 50%, and it was only the older people with gray hair that got let go.  This was a huge multi-national company…. They justified it by saying those were the most expensive (ie experienced) employees.
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It'll Happen To You! (The Simpsons)
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 12:06:57 AM EDT
[#19]
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Originally Posted By TheTallest:
I'm 47 and was promoted twice in 7 months. The first time was in March of 2024 and I got a $9,000 a year raise and then I was promoted again two weeks ago and got an $18,000 a year raise.
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That darned bias in favor of the tall I guess.
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 12:13:34 AM EDT
[#20]
40yo and older? Shit, I’m gonna have to get my career straight sooner than I thought. 😂 guess I know why I keep seeing younger and younger “directors”.
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 12:15:22 AM EDT
[#21]
Have they tried cutting back on avocados?
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 12:21:42 AM EDT
[#22]
Originally Posted By JLPettimoreIII:

As the U.S. workforce grows older, the problems around ageism in the office are coming to a head. Elder millennials, Gen X, and boomer employees all say they're experiencing serious discrimination issues, and it's hurting their morale.

About 90% of U.S. workers aged 40 or older say they have experienced ageism in the workplace, according to a new report from Resume Now, a jobs platform. The most glaring example is compensation nearly half of these older workers report earning less than their younger colleagues, according to the study. And the same proportion of respondents, about 49%, say they make less money than Gen Z and younger millennial workers for doing the same job.

Older millennials, Gen Xers, and boomers say they're also being given fewer opportunities to progress in their roles, creating barriers in their career growth. About 22% of employees 40 years or older say their work environments skip over older colleagues for challenging assignments, according to the report. Nearly all survey participants said that ageism limits their access to professional development and training services, and around 16% of respondents say their employer engages in a pattern of passing over older workers for promotions in favor of younger counterparts who may have fewer qualifications.

Unsurprisingly, this ageism is impacting the way workers show up to their jobs. Discrimination bulldozes employee well-being: of workers aged 40 or older who have faced ageism, 45% say the bias made them feel isolated and lonely, 44% suffered from depression, and 36% experienced anxiety.

Unfortunately, ageism can be difficult to prove and police, putting up roadblocks for affected staffers to advocate for themselves. About 94% of survey participants who have faced age bias say they have reported the discrimination to their HR teams, but only 45% say that HR mediated the situation. Among workers who have faced ageism, about 37% of those who reported the situation say the ageist coworker was given a warning, 30% said they got a slap on the wrist but weren't fired, 23% say the person was terminated, and 5% said administration took no action.

There's no doubt that the workforce is getting older. And as long as ageism persists, HR leaders must work to help companies dismantle their bias, create more equitable career advancement opportunities, and recognize that America's aging workforce should be respected for their contributions.

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moar
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LOL!  Karma is a bitch, isn't it?

Not long ago, those now "over 40" were saying that the "over 40" at the time they were in their 20s were too old.

Now it's their turn.  Welcome to the club and enjoy it.  

Wait until they are "over 50" and are denied employment because they are "overqualified".



Link Posted: 10/16/2024 12:21:57 AM EDT
[#23]
I'm 52 and feel fortunate to work for a corporation where promotions, raises, and bonuses are based solely on how much money you personally brought in to the company that year. (No team projects in my field. You sink or swim depending on your own results.) Make no mistake, like any large multinational, they give lip service to a lot of leftist garbage, but the bottom line is about the money. Doesn't matter if you are a 22 year-old transexual, black feminist Chinaman. You're not moving up if you don't perform.

Not in sales, but our monthly contests always remind me of this scene when people are complaining about how they didn't bring in much money that month.







Link Posted: 10/16/2024 12:27:51 AM EDT
[#24]
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 12:31:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Karankawa] [#25]
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Originally Posted By RC03:

She looks familiar.  Was/is a member here?
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Originally Posted By RC03:
Originally Posted By JLPettimoreIII:
Originally Posted By jwnc:OP has caught on to what's been going on for over a decade.  Older white men are being replaced by DEI hires or youngsters.

We have seen it all.  We don't make the mistakes that the youngsters do, therefore we were paid more.  Nope, not any more.

The companies do it at their own risk, but that doesn't help if you are unemployed.
i put the IED training on mute and make $75/hr to zone out and dream about food and/or our Queen.

https://i.redd.it/whlydhl4zzu91.jpg

She looks familiar.  Was/is a member here?


That’s one of our resident Ukie bros.
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 4:37:10 AM EDT
[#26]
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Originally Posted By anymanusa:
At my company they're paying 20-30 yr veterans 70-90k a year, and then they are turning around and hiring fresh grads at 70-75k a year. Some old folks are rightfully angry, and the output from the new grads is not high in 90% of the cases.

I'm saying I see it and it's happening where I work and it's just enticing bullshit for a young generation that would rather be doing anything other than working.

The company can't keep them here so they keep offering THEM more money and status and the old guys get to keep their same pay and job since they have been such loyal servants to the company.

It's pretty fucked up.
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Looks like showing is valued more than loyalty. Perhaps the loyal producers need to change their game.
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 4:51:00 AM EDT
[#27]
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Originally Posted By UTex86:
> Refuses to use that gat dang email
> Mad the zoomer makes 50% more
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Nobody over 40 uses email. And that's why age discrimination exists.

Got it.
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 4:53:43 AM EDT
[#28]
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Originally Posted By OKnativeson:

I'm 54 and the most experienced, most credentialed Technologist in my Department.

no.. I will not take on Management Duties or other duties without a bump in pay.
no.. I will not change my schedule to accommodate Managements inability to hire competent employee's without a pay increase.


they use those metrics to dangle the carrot for a future raise. its always "Future Pay Increase"

Corps do not want to pay those older than 50 for numerous reasons. they want the expertise and experience, but they do not want an employee who is knowledgeable in using the word " NO'.
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TL;DR - Corporations want 1st world benefits at a 3rd world price.
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 4:58:04 AM EDT
[#29]
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Originally Posted By doolyd:
Well, if I am being honest, at 49 yrs old I am not as sharp as I was in my late 20's.  Used to struggle working with older people who could barely work a computer and now I find myself to be that person.  Oh well.  Life sucks.  What can I say.
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I'm 58. I was behind my peers in computing. I didn't build my first machine from scratch with no assistance until 1996. It was a Pentium II running SCSI. The hard drive was a 9 gig Seagate Cheeta. (It is still running, on Win98se) I am on the lower end of tech savvy for Gen X. The 68 year old across the street bought a car Saturday and his grandkids couldn't figure out how to pair his phone but I did in about 5 seconds. I put the line around 1960 for birth year of people who missed computing growing up. I had friends who got a Mac when they first came out. We were freshmen.

There is no way a 49-year-old can barely work a computer. 69 I believe.
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 5:01:00 AM EDT
[#30]
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Originally Posted By Colt1860:
That's weird because we're told that older people work so much harder.  
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You were lied to about gained efficiencies.
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 5:02:10 AM EDT
[#31]
"Elder Millennial"

That made my day. I'm gonna use that on some 65-year-olds today.
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 5:12:09 AM EDT
[#32]
Ageism against people over 40?

I just got the old-timers to quit with the "you're just a kid" bullshit a couple years ago, and now I gotta worry about people thinking I'm too old?
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 5:20:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: kp01] [#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Rheinmetall792:
Depends on the field.  It's a growing problem in IT related fields.  Who needs a highly paid, competent older White guy when you can snatch a young DEI hire (especially overseas) for 1/3 to 1/2 the cost and try to train him to be only fractionally as good?

Not so much in more traditional engineering disciplines, where experience is highly valued and your skillset doesn't become obsolete every 3 years.  Most of the senior managers are in their 50s or even 60s, although many engineers plan their lives well enough to comfortably retire before hitting their 60s, so they are becoming less common. There is also the issue of having credibility when presenting proposals and reports to clients.  Snot noses don't have it....
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I'm one of those people... Having worked at Intel for over 10 years, I was passed up on being hired as a full time employee multiple times. I was always a contract worker with various types of contracts. Some 18 months, some never ending etc. I quit last March, and now working for self/friend. I've been in tech since I was 22.

Some of the things I've done for Intel I should have been a full time employee due to what I managed and what I had access too, but I was not. I'm 42, 43 in Dec...
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 5:22:27 AM EDT
[#34]
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Originally Posted By MikeMilligan:
The goal is to spend your 50s either retired or as the individual contributor who knows where the bodies are buried, if you still need an income.
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Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 5:26:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Makarov] [#35]
Beginning in my late 40s, I definitely felt like I was being “nudged” out of my supervisory roles. There seemed to be an emphasis on “making room for the millennials”  and I saw younger workers accelerated along a career path in a few short years that took me decades to achieve.

Ten years later and many of those people have left the organization for “better” opportunities and we go through a cycle of new hires with less education and less experience than the description requires, we accommodate them, we give them authority but shift responsibilities onto aging employees. Then the younger workers quit or move-on, Rinse and repeat.

The problem for my organization is that the aging “loyal” workforce is all approaching or reached retirement age. At some point that well of institutional KSAs is going to run dry since it is not being replenished.

I am NOT saying that I am so good that I am an “indispensable” employee. I am saying my organization’s short-sighted management has simply MADE me indispensable.

The upside for me is that I am in the drivers seat. I now only work when I want, come and go as I please and I don’t put up with a lot of BS. Can they fire me? Sure, I just don’t care, so it’s not really much of a threat. I’ve got enough money. They have no clubs to use on me, all they have left are carrots.

Link Posted: 10/16/2024 5:33:31 AM EDT
[#36]
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Originally Posted By fike:


Sure.

I have seen/heard both sides of the story quite a few times and it’s almost always an older person who has gotten lazy or behind in knowledge/technology.

Undoubtedly, it happens strictly because of age, but to pretend that it isn’t often skill based is pretty bad.
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From what I’ve seen it’s mainly a cost saving exercise like others have stated. Older people have put in the time and experience to get to higher income levels. Of course people earning significantly more are going to be in the crosshairs when the next quarter profits are on the line.
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 5:35:18 AM EDT
[#37]
I was hired at 52 years old as IT Director

Experience is still a thing.
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 6:29:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: jwnc] [#38]
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Originally Posted By Homernomer:


Nobody over 40 uses email. And that's why age discrimination exists.

Got it.
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Originally Posted By Homernomer:
Originally Posted By UTex86:
> Refuses to use that gat dang email
> Mad the zoomer makes 50% more


Nobody over 40 uses email. And that's why age discrimination exists.

Got it.


No one UNDER 40 uses email.

It's all Slack and text.

"Didn't you get my Slack?  I sent it two minutes ago."

(Or JIRA if you are a real techie.)
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 6:45:07 AM EDT
[#39]
Slightly off topic but a friend who is a white male in his mid 50's tried to get hired by MSFT and AMZN.

He knows more about storage than pretty much anyone, having been a C level tech guy in storage companies and having about 100 patents.  He also has 10X FU money, so that isn't the issue, he is just bored and wants to get back in the game after an acquisition (where he made even more money).

Both turned him down. Vague reasons.  Backchannel to the exec recruiter - "Holy crap this guy is smart, but he seemed too politically conservative, we don't think that the would fit in."

Link Posted: 10/16/2024 6:48:57 AM EDT
[#40]
When I was 49 I was laid off in the last of several layoffs the company had. The manager told me he had me on the retain list he submitted to legal. When the list came back a black guy was substituted for me and I was laid off.

The black guy was pretty much worthless which is why he was on the list to get laid off. Then he quit 3 months later.
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 7:01:12 AM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JLPettimoreIII:
that escalated quickly.gif
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It’s not personal, they are just worthless in my line of work. That’s not to say that the ones willing and able might not make it but it’s doubtful. To do my job you need experience that can only come from time in boots. These little ones are too visual orientated. They don’t hear, smell or feel their surroundings. And when they do see something they lack the imagination to wonder why they are seeing it.
 They do fine in a task based roll with constant follow up but the individual thinkers are few and far between. Of all the utes that work for me know I have one that will be able to cover my job in 10 years.

I’m leaving to go to a different facility to take over for a guy retiring after 47 years. They went looking for me outside the company instead of failing with a zoomer they already have.
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 7:03:57 AM EDT
[#42]
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Originally Posted By Procyon:
Two people at my company recently got promoted.

One to the level I’m at. She’d been with the company only 9 months and couldn’t do anything with product line she was charged with leading. But still got promoted.

The other person has more tenure at the company, but he was unable to do anything with the product line that he was leading. He was promoted from my level to the next level higher (highest IC level).

I left the product I’d taken from 0 to 1 (from nothing to launch and rapid growth) which is growing 20% QoQ (it’s really on fire). I then took over a stagnant product and have it growing 25% YoY from 2023.

They’re at least 10-15 years younger than I am.
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But they swallow.
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 7:07:17 AM EDT
[#43]
In my industry, we usually change technology about every 5-7 years.  With that, I have to sit on teams calls to go over the changes, usually run by DEI hires reading from a script.  That gets old, the software isn't beta tested, and we usually work through the bullshit to make it work.  I wish they would simply send out the training deck in email, then again, I use that time wisely to amuse myself here in GD.  

A lot of design work in my field is being offshored to India, and as a Gen-Xer, I don't see anyone coming in behind me, and I really don't care.  I invested aggressively throughout my career, for I was dirt fucking poor growing up and I vowed never to live like that again:  I'll be retired at 55.  The current trend is to dump the old guy, hire a DEI or college grad at half the pay rate, and we get moved along.  I don't take it personal, for I have no control over it.   For me, the key is being well networked, don't burn bridges, and be good at what you do.  DEI is a fucking fad and this too shall pass; however, two things will come of it.  Either that mindset needs to change, or the downward trend of doubling down on stupid will continue and companies will suffer.  Throwing away $ to cover up incompetence will only last for so long, especially if the company is on the market.  I look at what it has done to the Secret Service, FBI, and the upper echelons of the armed forces, and I simply laugh.  The days of hiring the best and brightest person for a position are over, at least from my perspective.

I've instilled my drive into my children, they'll do well, I'm confident of that.  In a few short years, I'll be spending my free time shooting, reloading, and cycling.  Good luck to the Snowflakes, Millennials and the gender neutral they-them.  Once upon a time, we were a great nation founded on innovation, patriotism and hard work.  That's gone folks.
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 7:07:40 AM EDT
[#44]
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Originally Posted By Colt1860:
That's weird because we're told that older people work so much harder.  
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Some just quiet quit from repeated azz rape. There is no incentive to bust ass when it gets you nowhere.
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 7:16:56 AM EDT
[#45]
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Originally Posted By www-glock19-com:
Company I work cannot find anyone under 40 that can pass a drug test , has a valid driver's license , and has a driving record clean enough to get covered by insurance.
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I see that a lot!
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 7:20:14 AM EDT
[#46]
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Originally Posted By bullsi191145:
Ageism is real, and it will happen to you at some point.

I saw a department get gutted by 50%, and it was only the older people with gray hair that got let go.  This was a huge multi-national company…. They justified it by saying those were the most expensive (ie experienced) employees.
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100% this.

It happened to me earlier this year.
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 7:22:12 AM EDT
[#47]
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Originally Posted By Trout_Hunter:


Do you have any idea when email started being used regularly? This is for those over 40. Not those over 70.
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I had jobs in 1993-1998 where email was used internally, but not externally. The first job with external email use was 1998.
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 7:25:40 AM EDT
[#48]
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Originally Posted By 10mmManiac:


Some of the most miserable people I worked with in tech were those that maxed out their 401's, Roth's, and other investments and penny pinched all their lives and didn't live a little. Not saying it's a bad thing, but these people were majorly depressed, saying they couldn't afford anything and so on.
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Originally Posted By 10mmManiac:
Originally Posted By MikeMilligan:
By the time you’re 50+ a promotion is the last thing you should want. Do all that ladder climbing shit in your 30s and 40s. By 50 your 401k money should be compounding enough so your accumulation phase should be over.

The goal is to spend your 50s either retired or as the individual contributor who knows where the bodies are buried, if you still need an income.



Some of the most miserable people I worked with in tech were those that maxed out their 401's, Roth's, and other investments and penny pinched all their lives and didn't live a little. Not saying it's a bad thing, but these people were majorly depressed, saying they couldn't afford anything and so on.


It’s definitely a balancing act, true. But the point is unless there’s been a divorce or medical event, someone in their 50s shouldn’t have to struggle to earn like someone in their 20s. That’s the point of work is to not have to do it forever.
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 7:27:28 AM EDT
[#49]
One of my 25 year old employees recently showed me the email icon on his phone…he has over 52k unread emails. He said he doesn’t use email “unless it’s really important.”
Link Posted: 10/16/2024 7:30:23 AM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Ajek:
One of my 25 year old employees recently showed me the email icon on his phone…he has over 52k unread emails. He said he doesn’t use email “unless it’s really important.”
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Work or personal emails?

I see people I know use email with personal accounts having thousands of unread emails. Lots of spam or advertising type emails. There’s too many to go through, they say. Well, if you’d get off the email lists that would really cut down on the new stuff.
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