What technological leap forward happened, which allowed red dot sights to shrink, and internal lens mounts/ emiters become rugged enough that slide mounting to be practical? The other day, I was looking at my handgun and it's got to be the most abusive spot on a firearm to even try to get optic repeatability.

I put a red dot on a pistol 25 years ago. Tasco Optima 2000. Sold the pistol, still have the dot.

I think it is simple evolution over time. The first red dots ( I shot bullseye competition starting in the late 70’s when aim points were a new thing) were heavy bulky ate batteries and were unreliable. Demand from shooters to make them smaller lighter tougher and better battery life is what drove the trend.

Like most things firearms, the history goes way back beyond what most people consider. https://hi-luxoptics.com/blogs/history/early-reflex-sights


I can not answer the engineering specific questions. I would have to assume the biggest developments are in circuitry. None of it is particularly new tech. Mini red dots have been around since the mid 90's. Even some considered the best today such as the Trijicon RMR have been around about 15-20 years.

The big developments we are seeing in the last 5-10 years haven't been so much the sights, as much as the pistols and the ease of installation. 15 years ago you couldn't just go to the store and buy a handgun that was ready to have any kind of optic installed. Many of them couldn't even be custom milled as a simple operation. Today even many compact pistols are already setup for red dot use. That's the big change we have had, not the red dots themselves.

I mean its a diode and a screen. there just isnt much happening there. how people can justify paying aimpoint prices for an aluminum tube with a tiny LED in it has baffled me for years. a premium battle grade red dot should be 299.99.

…it’s pretty simple why. Eotech, Aimpoint, etc can charge what they charge because the $300 optics you speak of don’t have the battle tested and proven track records like they do.
Let me know what $300 micro rifle dot can handle the abuse an  Aimpoint micro can.
You want quality dots, you buy Aimpoint, EOTech, etc.
You want Chinesium you buy a $300 Holosun.
If you think they’re on the same level you live in an alternate reality.

Same goes for pistol optics. There’s still not one single pistol optic out there than can take the abuse of a Trijicon RMR or Aimpoint ACRO. Until one can, Trijicon and Aimpoint can easily keep commanding their $500+ price point for them.

Rifle scopes are just tubes with some glass in them, they should be $100. Or maybe you don't have any idea what it takes to actually manufacture red dots.

I'm sure that Tasco is just as good.

Excellent argument with points true and well made.

Too bad you ruined it by not understanding the term "price point".

Seems to me you’re the one who doesn’t understand.

The guy specifically said a premium battle grade red dot should be $300. Those things don’t go together. Period.
I’ve read his post numerous times and nowhere does he mention the words “price point”.

optics are much more complicated than red dots. I understand why optics cost more. although todays $3000 optics is pants on head retarded too.

I don't know what you think a red dot is, but the red dot's we are talking about here are reflex sights. They are optics.

They are not simpler than telescopic rifle scopes, in most ways they are more complicated. Telescopic rifle scopes cost more because the precision needed for the glass is far greater than that of a red dot. If you think red dots are so simple, go ahead and build one yourself. Its just an led in a tube, right?

Your last bit is ridiculous, about as intelligent as you act. Wait till you see what real night vision costs. Fuck, good iron sights can run $300, and you think a quality red dot can be made for that?

He might not, but since I worked for a defense contractor manufacturing them...

The mil spec ones cost what they do due to all the testing compliance costs.  That includes thermal stability, and return to point of aim through some brutal thermal cycles.

Also made NVGs for a while.  Roughly half the manufacturing cost was the 100% group A testing requirements.  Could have knocked 30% off the price easily if we could have done sample testing.

You've obviously never been on YouTube or heard of Sage Dynamics.

So you should be able to show me a video of Mr. Cowans where a $300 pistol dot holds up to the same abuse as an RMR?

This is one but he has several of the various models including RMR.  He's considered the authority on red dots.  

Other channels have beat the hell out of Holosun optics and they do very well.

Shit still breaks on them. (As it does in this video.) The lens literally broke. So you failed to post a $300 optic that holds up to the abuse an RMR can take.
Not battle proven.
CCP
List goes on.

I’ll keep spending a few bucks more on my RMR’s and ACRO’s.

The glass broke but it still worked.  Don't kid yourself RMRs break as well, I had to send one back.  Everything mechanical can break.

Most optics in the Ukraine/Russian war are Holosun or other Chinese manufacture so theirs your "combat proven".  Not to mention a ton if cops carry Holosun.  

I gotta ask, what "war" or abuse do you see yourself getting into?  You seem like you just want to die on the hill of "it can take the most abuse"

Who said RMR’s don’t break?

There were a couple things happen around the same time.

1- New generation of shooters who are comfortable with mounting a dot on their slide.  This created a larger market that increased demand.  More demand fuels investment in technology.

2- Optic companies and gun manufacturers finally came up with some good mounting techniques.

3- Manufacturing techniques improved that allowed for mass production.

4. Laser diode cost and size has come down due to technologies changing.  For instance, CD players are no longer in demand.  Take all that manufacturing ability and put it toward other products.

That may be true, but that applies to everything that gets properly tested. If you take that away, you get the fly by night China garbage from Ebay that cost $30 and is about as useful as a nerf gun sight.

They are using every crusty old thing they can scrounge up in the war. There's poor suckers out there fighting with bolt action mosin nagants. Even the new rifles, how many have any kind of optic at all? Looks like an awful lot of iron sights in pictures.

I do not hate Holosun, but the fact they are turning up in the Ukraine war is not amazing. I'm sure those guys love the heck out of them over their iron sights. I'm not that interested in them with the other options that are out there, but I will hand it to them. Holosun is probably the most improved company of the last 10 years, when most other companies have only gone downhill or at a minimum maintained. 10 years ago Holosun was just some trash you put on an airsoft gun. They were just another China trash brand. I don't know exactly when, but later in the 2010's they really stepped up, and then over Covid is when they really went mainstream. Now they seem to be the de-facto lower price brand.

What is kind of odd is that back 10+ years ago before so many pistols were cut for mini red dots, and tube red dots were the more common, the soild low price brand was Ultradot. Now you don't even hear a peep about them.

Huh, didn't know Holosun use to suck.  I've been running several for about five years, great value for the feature set.
Unless of course you wanna be tacticool, flexing on the gram.

Fixed that for you.

1st sfg

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Pics borrowed from the G19s in SF thread here.

Even delta force uses holosun.  

Here's another delta Pic, flexin on the gram.

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Lmfao. Lots of those dudes are given the green light to run lots of questionable shit. Doesn’t mean much.
If you’re happy with your budget CCP optics, do your thing.

Found it entertaining actually. I'd love to see a report on round count/any issues that it may incur.

And I do.....do my own thing. Internet ass pats and fist bumps are of little interest to me.

Early Holosun was way different. I don't even think they had a mini reflex red dot to begin with, they were tube red dots. They were absolute trash. Not because they were tube styles, tube styles still have advantages today, but they simply weren't trying to make a quality product. You didn't expect them to be, I'm pretty sure they were under $100.

I have not kept track of Holosun, and I don't know what models came out when. It's a young company, they just came out in 2014. You get into that 2018-2020 era and Holosun did a complete 180 to what they are today. They happened to be the brand that hit that market right at the peak, and they were smart enough to do things like keep standard footprints, and give features people wanted. The only downside is they aren't cheap anymore. A 508t is $400. That's really the crux of the issue for me. I could buy a pure china Holosun for $400, or buy a built in USA Leupold DPP for $450. People act like the Trijicon is a super high priced, but depending on the model the RMR or SRO at least can be had ballpark $500. It's really not that much more than Holosun.

Some just wanna argue in the face of facts.

You haven’t posted anything that factually disproves a single one of my arguments lmao.
Can’t make this shit up. Just because you like your Chinesium optic, doesn’t make it as good as an RMR. Period.
You literally posted a video proving my point that the $300 Chinese optic can’t, in fact, hold up to what an RMR can. And a hand full of SF guys using them means absolutely nothing to the thousands and thousands of RMR’s that have been in service for years both on pistols and on top of ACOGS and who knows what else.

If you think it's that easy to make a durable, long lasting illuminated red dot, then build one for a factor of the cost of current ones and RETIRE with all the money!

Something tells me you can't and won't do that.

Dollars to donuts that guy has nothing in his garage but a screwdriver set he got from the bargain bin at a hardware store. There's no way that guy even knows how to power an LED, much less figure out how to turn an actual laser into a red dot sight. He doesn't seem to be aware of all the other parts inside either. Good luck with that circuit board.

I'd love to see it explained somewhere exactly what the difference is engineering wise between something like a Trijicon or Aimpont and a Holosun or Primary Arms red dot.

I mean sure, product A went to war and a bunch of guys say they are great. But what is it exactly in a material or design sense that makes it more durable, more reliable or whatever?

RMR is so durable because of the patented owl ears. ACRO is so durable because it’s a stout ass 7075 tube with not two, but 4 lenses. The outter on each end being sacrificial.
As far as longevity I don’t know. But clearly the players like Trijicon and Aimpoint have found the superior boards, led’s, connectors etc as to why they can outlast the competition from a pure round count standpoint. Or maybe the others could do it too…but it would no longer fit within their crappy $300 price point.

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Broken optics in the armory

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There's plenty of reports of the seals on people's ACROs breaking and fogging up online, it's not quite as stable as you think.
I've had bad RMRs that lost adjustments, I've also had to have an SRO completely replaced due to battery drain issues.  I've had holosuns where the sisters broke as well. Every company makes bad optics here and there. To nearly all professional users, holosun, trijicon and aimpoint are all seem as about equal.

Lmao

I don't know why people get so hurt by this, thinking I'm putting something down, but get out of lala land. The models of Holosun that only came out 3-4-5 years ago with no stringent testing are not as good as Trijicon, Aimpoint, Eotech models that came out 10+ years ago and developed with harsh military testing. That doesn't make Holosun bad at all, that's just the reality. In 10 years its very possible Holosun could have a model or two that have that kind of history. Holosun has models that have some really good features. Just enjoy them for what they are.

You see it here and every other forum and Facebook group in the industry…people who buy budget things try to justify how/why their budget things are “just as good” as (insert better optic/gun/whatever) here. It’s a fucking epidemic.
Very, very few of them can simply admit that they know it’s not as good, and they simply bought it because it fits their budget. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. But stop lying to yourself that it’s better than something it isn’t and just accept what it is.

I'm certainly no expert in any of the engineering on red dots, but I wonder if potting the electronics made a huge difference in their robustness.

I tried hard to buy a trijicon for my pistol.  But they didn't offer green (needed cause better with my astigmatism),  and they didn't look as good looking through them,  and I didn't like having to remove to replace battery.   Also durability on the SRO's and acros seemed worse and the Rmr's seemed a draw with the 508t from the reports I researched at the time.  The fact it was cheaper wasn't a factor,  but a bonus

The point of view you are expressing is not accurate and simply does not gel with modern red dot usage and equipment evaluations.
Holosun v. Trijicon is not a matter of "My Taurus is just as good as a Beretta".  There are many distinguished military and LE units and also top level competitive shooters that prefer the Holosun to the Trijicon, regardless of the price difference.  I own at least a half dozen of each brand and I only use the Trijicon because it is required by my particular agency.  For my own carry purposes I choose to use the Holosun versus the Trijicon, simply for the fact that there are multiple reticles available, the controls are better, there is no dark green tint and I do not have to remove the optic to change out the battery.  Independent and agency testing has vetted the durability of the optic to my personal level of satisfaction.  It's really not a matter of "my cheaper optic is better than the full price model".

Example: the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department is probably the largest LE agency on the west coast and they have thoroughly tested and evaluated both optics and have found them fit for duty use.  In my conversations with their range personnel, the failure rate of both optics is about the same and based on the testing is why the optic was approved for full-time carry.

Trijicon is a good optic and it was a great optic 10 years ago, you are absolutely correct that back then the optics they made were far superior.  But just like many other companies, they rested on their laurels and failed to innovate, leading to the current industry situation.  I remember in the 90's and early 2000's where Leupold was the gold standard in optics, and just the same, they rested on their laurels to the point where their product was greatly overshadowed by many up and coming brands that have now become the industry standard (Vortex and Nightforce come to mind).  When vortex first came around, people referred to it as "cheap asian glass" and now decades later it is the primary use optic of many military SOF units.

Perhaps you don't have the firsthand experience with the brand causing you to have these perceptions, I was hesitant at first too but after running a few for several years I am absolutely sold on the platform.  Hopefully you can try one out for yourself and make a judgement based on the merits of the product and your experience.

I feel like a lot gets lost when we blindly blame whole brands, and I'm obviously guilty of that by blaming all of Holosun, but the reason is they are a young company. All of their models are new. This is probably more a fault of my own, but I find it really hard to trust a product that has only been on the market a couple of years. I'm assuming you are using something like a 508t due to the footprint, and I think that is one of the first good models they came out with. If you look at it from the perspective of that one model, then I can understand what you are saying, that that one has been vetted enough to trust.

It also seems so many are skimming over so many other great options. There's a lot more than the Trijicon RMR. The SRO has been out out about as long as the 508t, and it has the top mount battery, and large window that people seem to want. How is that not innovating? They just came out with an enclosed model which seems to be the new fad.

Then there's Eotech, Aimpoint, Sheild, even Sig recently got into the game and while a shaky start, they just released one that should be a banger. Theres so much out there, I simply find it hard to pay what Holosun wants for their sights, that maybe some models are as good, I refuse to believe they are better than everything else out there. Of equal quality products, I'm buying the non-China one every time.

Edit: I forgot about Leupold too. The Delta Point Pro is one of the best red dots on the market.

Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

Of the available options, the newer Holosun models are definitely the best choice.   I have a lot of experience with the above mentioned optics and I can tell you the nuances to each of them.
Eotech EFLX: This optic is manufactured in China and assembled in the USA, I had high hopes for this, having had one of the initial release models. The rubber gasket over the buttons will tore off during my first range session.  It is basically the same product as the bushnell red dot with a $100 markup, hard pass.
Aimpoint ACRO:  Good optic, small window and has shown to have issues with the internal seal breaking (only matters if you are in an environment where the temp fluctuates)
Shield Sights: Also made in China and generally regarded to be one of the worst RDS on the market due to the fact that the adjusters suck and no manual brightness.
Sig: Their Romeo sights are basically OEM manufactured for them by Holosun so they are made with the exact same electronics at a higher price.
Leupold: Great and dated optic, it eats battery really fast and is too tall to be used with most suppressor height sights, need XL height.

Realize that many cheap Chinese optics are generic rebrands, Holosun is probably the only one that makes their own shit: the parent company is Huanic Corp, which is a major global manufacturer of laser diodes.
Believe it or not, they are top of the heap in today's industry, hence the reason for the widespread adoption and prevalence in professional and competitive circles.

You obviously found what you like, and I certainly don't want to steer anyone away from that. I'm not brand loyal, especially not with red dots where I'm more or less tied to whatever pattern they are cut for unless you want to mess with adapters. I don't.

I'm not a big fan of Shield, but I'm almost positive they are made in the UK. Maybe they aren't top tier, but I can think of a lot, lot worse sights out there than an RMSc.

I'm not one to care that much about the absolute newest and greatest. From my perspective all of this is relatively new, and it definitely throws me for a loop when someone calls something like a Leupold DPP that came out when Trump became president "outdated". I'm more outdated than the sights are, I can't keep up. That's my own fault. I'm fine with less than the newest if they just work.

Sig as a brand is kind of hit an miss on their products anyway, but I feel like their new Romeo X and now Remeo X enclosed are going to perform really well. I'm getting the enclosed compact model as soon as it comes out for sale. You are the first person I've seen claim they are made by Holosun. I don't really see how it can even be true being as the Sig red dots are assembled in the USA. They claim to have stayed away from as much China components as possible for whatever requirement that was, possibly military. You know more than me about red dots by a long shot, but I think you are incorrect here. I've seen nothing that says the new Sig red dots are anything but made in their own plant of as many non-china parts as they can. They certainly fill a niche for me that no other brand has yet. The Williams LRS might have too, but that's for a different discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX7H1FsioOQ

You're pretty much correct on most counts.

I don't consider myself a brand loyalist at all either, I'm just trying to share my perception of what equipment is being used and vetted out there in military/LE/competition circles.  If you go to any USPSA match, tactical shooting course or LE training, at least 50% of shooters will be running Holosun and running them hard.

The RMSC is assembled in the UK but their component assemblies are sourced from China, I took a class with MSP a few years back and I recall them saying the only brand of RDS to stay away from was Shield as they have observed numerous failures with that brand, I readily admit I have no firsthand experience with them.
Regarding the holosun/sig, I spoke to one of the Holosun reps at a class about 4 years ago and he stated to me that they were OEM manufacturer for the Romeo of whatever that current generation was and it was an open secret in the industry, in the time that has passed this may have changed however.
As far as "US" made RDS, the only company I know of that makes all of their own components and subassemblies stateside are Trijicon and Leupold.  
I don't disagree that the DPP is a good and proven optic, I just can't help but wonder why they haven't updated the design in years to add features that most modern RDS have such as improved battery life, a lower deck height and a hi/low and on/off button.
The new Trijicon offerings like the RMR-HD is a step in the right direction, but I have no hands-on experience.  It would be difficult for me to buy one when I can get all of the features from a Holosun unit at half the price.

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The guy rocking the rare zombie model Eotech with the biohazard reticle fucks.


As for the back and forth over the RMR vs the Holosun, the Holosun is proven reliable at this point. They are also constantly innovating and at this point offers a lot of better options than what Trijicon offers. I like the RMR and I have more than a few. They work well but for the same price Holosun is offering a full enclosed red dot that has an internal battery and recharges via solar power. The Glock version of the SCS is amazing, it is sized perfect and looks like it was designed by Glock to fit their slide. Trijicon could have done it, but they refuse to innovate. I hate that Holosuns are made in China and part of the money spent on them goes back to the CCP but right now nothing exists that is better in some areas. I will still buy Trijicon products, I will still buy Aimpoint ACROs for some pistols but I will also still continue to use Holosun optics when the need arises because they are exceptionally good optics. If Trijicon starts making a better optic they will get my money. The RCR is on my short list but Trijicon doesn’t seem to want to produce them in a suitable number so they are OOS or at MSRP and I’m not paying more money than I spend on an Aimpoint ACRO for an enclosed emitter with a subpar attachment method.

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It is really a nice touch, I have a SCS on my M&P and it seems for every SCS model Holosun actually took the effort to make the optic really match the contours of the slides.  It's that little extra attention to detail that I appreciate.

There’s no way you actually believe this.
When you can literally get an RMR on sale for low to mid $400’s, you can’t possibly believe this is true. Stop lying to yourself.
The RMR is factually a better optic. Period. And doesn’t cost that much more in the grand scheme of things.