How are you zeroing your pistol dots? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 3/24/2026 9:24:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Jambalaya][Edited]
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One of the things you seldom read about is the actual process of zeroing RDS on handguns. I have been supporting the barrel (dust cover) and the butt of the grip with sandbags for stability and shooting at targets at a precisely measured 25 yards (I use a roll up fiberglass tape measure to locate my target stand). I have read that other people just shoot offhand. And folks with co-witnessed irons sometimes just line up the dot with the irons and don't even shoot. I use a laser bore sight to get close and then touch up the adjustments at the range using the sandbags as described above. What's your process? |
| I just got done with this process with a bunch of new guns for the PD. We did essentially the same thing you did, bore sighted to get them close, then shot from a rest to check zeros. I'd never do it off hand at distance, I'm a good shot and wouldn't assume I can get close to the mechanical accuracy of the gun by shooting offhand. |
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Based on the advice from the Hornady ballisticians, I would shoot a thirty shot group. Or at least twenty. The Hornady Podcast Ep. 050 - Your Groups Are Too Small You could shoot a large group on one target, or shoot smaller groups on a set of targets and overlay them to make a large group. |
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Originally Posted By woddwo: Based on the advice from the Hornady ballisticians, I would shoot a thirty shot group. Or at least twenty. The Hornady Podcast Ep. 050 - Your Groups Are Too Small You could shoot a large group on one target, or shoot smaller groups on a set of targets and overlay them to make a large group. This was just random cheap 115 grain 9mm ball ammo. But still, I can shoot a 2" ten shot group with cheap bulk .22lr out of my MkII from the same sandbags without even trying too hard. I'd be very happy with 10 shots of 9mm bulk ammo inside 2" at 25 yards. But with an 8" group at that range, that's a miss on some of the farther steel targets at the local matches, especially offhand and in a hurry. |
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Some people, instructors even, do advocate for off hand zeroing. Their thought is that you want the human influence is how I understand it and how I remember Jedlinski explaining it in person. I won't say it's wrong necessarily, but anyway you'll see below. That being said, my personal experience with that is I saw no difference. Plus I prefer 25 yard zeroes and doing that verification group offhand at 25 isn't very easy. My groups with a handgun at 25 with a dot are 6-8". So, I have target that you shoot at 5 but it's a 25 yard zero. You aim in one spot and adjust POI to another. It works well. I do that off hand. Then do a check group at 25 bagged in. I've never seen any difference. Can someone? I dunno, maybe. Seems like splitting hairs to me. |
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Originally Posted By ManiacRat: I'll also add that "lollipopping" from the sight isn't a good idea. As the only zeroing method I'd agree. As a method of getting the hits on target to begin the adjustment, it is fine. I'd just use good two hand stance at 25m. Empty a mag and adjust. Repeat until satisfied. It may not be such a nice group from that distance, but you should still be able to see where the center is. Besides, handheld is the way it will be used, so theoretically best match. I don't have the strongest wrists, so that might matter. |
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I pre adjust the dot to be right on top of the front sight right across the living room before I go to the range. Usually, after that, I only need to move dot a few clicks to get it where I want it. I used to sight in at 12 yds. off hand. I have used a rest before but didn't see a real advantage. That was in my CZ days when nice small groups were a way of life. The last few years I've still done the pre sight in at the house before going to the range. However, I do the zero (final adjustment of the dot to point of impact) at 7 to 10 yds offhand. Not all my M&Ps will shoot nice groups. I have three full sized ones and a couple Shield Plus pistols that do better. So far I've not even tried an M&P at 25 yds. No more than 15 yds. up to this point. Five yds. to fifteen yds., I can't tell it's off enough to worry about. The groups open up but the impact is around the point of aim. |
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I went to the range today with my disappointingly inaccurate M9A4. I've been chasing whatever the problem is on this gun for months, trying to eliminate potential causes. I've replaced the locking block, which has helped with barrel lockup. I've also ordered a new (hopefully better fitting) optics plate. I thought perhaps it was a parallax issue with the Osight, but at 25 yards moving my head around, the dot appeared to be pretty static on the target. This is the best I could do with WWB 115gr FMJ with the factory optics plate. 15 rounds (one magazine) at 25 yards produced a 3.69" group. I'd be plenty happy with this for a $300 plastic gun. But a $1200 Beretta should do better. I can shoot a 2" group with my beater Ruger MkII and Federal bulk .22 ammo at 25 yards without really trying super hard, so I don't think my technique is the problem. There is a matter of the twist rate being a little better suited to 124gr ammo, but that shouldn't account for such a large error.  I'd like to see a group half this size, but I think I'm going to have to be satisfied with this. I'll try a different M9A4 and a Holosun when the Dlah plate shows up. In any case, I went through the same sight-in process but instead of supporting the gun direcly, I used a 2 handed grip and supported my hands with the sandbags, and it actually seems to be a little better than supporting the gun directly with the bags. |
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Originally Posted By JKTFinn: As the only zeroing method I'd agree. As a method of getting the hits on target to begin the adjustment, it is fine. I'd just use good two hand stance at 25m. Empty a mag and adjust. Repeat until satisfied. It may not be such a nice group from that distance, but you should still be able to see where the center is. Besides, handheld is the way it will be used, so theoretically best match. I don't have the strongest wrists, so that might matter. Like I said I won't say it's wrong at all. I just personally see no difference in that me doing a rested zero versus a free standing zero. I tend to think of it as do whatever works for you. But some instructors get frothy at the mouth over one way or the other. Heard it this past weekend actually. |
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| I watched a video where the guy made a big cross on his target with blue tape. He just used the tape lines themselves to zero first elevation, is he hitting the vertical tape line. Then windage, hitting the horizontal tape line, it was kinda wierd to see but it seemed to work well. He did use sandbags. |
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@jambalaya 1. Are you watching the target or dot? It's imperative you remain target focused. If you watch the dot, you will get shotgun patterns. 2. Try different ammo. Not so much projo weight, as you said it isn't that big of deal. But WWB is awful. It's good blasting ammo. But that's about it. |
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Originally Posted By ManiacRat: @jambalaya 1. Are you watching the target or dot? It's imperative you remain target focused. If you watch the dot, you will get shotgun patterns. 2. Try different ammo. Not so much projo weight, as you said it isn't that big of deal. But WWB is awful. It's good blasting ammo. But that's about it. It's hard to really answer that about being target focused. I turn the brightness down to minimize astigmatism bloom so the dot itself is pretty faint and you can see the target through it. As a test, I took a CZ P-09 F to the range this past Saturday. I shot the same WWB through it and got a better group. 2.3" for 11 shots. This was using the same ammo. I really do think it's something wrong with that Beretta at this pont. 
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Whenever I tried resting the pistol in a rest I would get larger groups, but when I rested my arms from my wrists all the way up to my shoulders on a big range bag without the pistol contacting anything using normal grip like I was unsupported I would get better groups for zeroing. |
Liberal men are pissing their panties like little girls over guns all the time, like wusses, it's really pathetic that grown men can't act like....well, men.
m14brian
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Theres at least one Federal agency that uses a collimater to zero its guns for duty issue. They are bore sighted and that’s it. The gun that shot this PPC National Record was hand zeroed at 10 yards. It’s not rocket science. Over thinking it doesn’t make it better. Attached File |
Distinguished
 Zeroing a Handgun Red Dot Sight |
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Originally Posted By ManiacRat: I'll also add that "lollipopping" from the sight isn't a good idea. It's a different sight system and should be zeroed independently. Just like rifles. People tend to over think these dots. Just think like you would with a rifle. Doing the “lollipop” method is simply to get your red dot in the ballpark and then fine tune from there. Red dots and iron sights are never going to really “align” but the quick indexing just helps reduce the frustration of trying to find where you dot is hitting. I usually sandbag at 10 meters and then push out to 25 meters. Once I’m good, I’ll bring it back in and start from 5 to 10, to 25 meters off hand to confirm. And yes, my 25 meter opens up off hand, but I’m still comfortably inside the “C” zone. I just think trying to zero off hand will only exacerbate poor shooting habits. If you’re a well-trained, unsupported competition shooter, I think that disparity is mitigated. If you’re an average shooter with bad habits that pop up from time to time, zeroing a red dot unsupported isn’t going to help you improve your shooting skills, speed, or accuracy. ROCK6 |
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Originally Posted By ROCK6: Doing the "lollipop" method is simply to get your red dot in the ballpark and then fine tune from there. Red dots and iron sights are never going to really "align" but the quick indexing just helps reduce the frustration of trying to find where you dot is hitting. I usually sandbag at 10 meters and then push out to 25 meters. Once I'm good, I'll bring it back in and start from 5 to 10, to 25 meters off hand to confirm. And yes, my 25 meter opens up off hand, but I'm still comfortably inside the "C" zone. I just think trying to zero off hand will only exacerbate poor shooting habits. If you're a well-trained, unsupported competition shooter, I think that disparity is mitigated. If you're an average shooter with bad habits that pop up from time to time, zeroing a red dot unsupported isn't going to help you improve your shooting skills, speed, or accuracy. ROCK6 |
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I kind of bore sight. Then I use a high tech, high speed rest. I flip one of the range's sitting bench's on end. I set a Game Changer Shmedium bag on it. I zero. I have also used old school with a stack of firewood and a sock full of dried beans. Seriously, use good ammo. By that I mean HST, Gold, Dot or the like. Bottom of the barrel 110 grain FMJ is good for training and getting on paper. Good ammo gives you the best chances for success for the final zero. |
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Originally Posted By ManiacRat: Yep, if you read up a bit. We discussed that. But often times I've come across folks who think you can just plop the dot on the front sight and be done. Have come across it many times when teaching red dot classes. They think they have a zero, but find out otherwise. I can only imagine. I was asssiting our trainers with our Soldiers (combat support) using their new EOTech optics on their M4's to get them zeroed in. They were literally trying to align the red dot through their front and rear sights. They just zeroed with their irons and just asusmed they were used with the optic  It was a disaster and we had to stop the firing line and doing some serious retraining. ROCK6 |
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OP, so this was my recent M&P 2.0 zero results. I got a 4.5" 20 shot group at 25 yards. Like you, I wasn't exactly thrilled with the accuracy, but at the same time I don't think it would really matter if it could do a 2" group. This was Winchester 124gr nato.  I did pull a few shots on this one and it probably would have been a 3.25" group had I not had those few left flyers. |
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Originally Posted By JBecker_72: OP, so this was my recent M&P 2.0 zero results. I got a 4.5" 20 shot group at 25 yards. Like you, I wasn't exactly thrilled with the accuracy, but at the same time I don't think it would really matter if it could do a 2" group. This was Winchester 124gr nato. https://i.postimg.cc/pd11ksCP/IMG-4651.jpg I did pull a few shots on this one and it probably would have been a 3.25" group had I not had those few left flyers. But still, I have encountered some pretty distant small falling steel targets at matches in my area and they are small enough and far enough that I can't be reasonably sure my M9A4 will hit them. If I can get my other one to shoot a tight group, I might just consider selling this one instead of chasing accuracy that I'll never see out of it. I'm totally happy with my 2.3" CZ group. |
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Originally Posted By ROCK6: I can only imagine. I was asssiting our trainers with our Soldiers (combat support) using their new EOTech optics on their M4's to get them zeroed in. They were literally trying to align the red dot through their front and rear sights. They just zeroed with their irons and just asusmed they were used with the optic It was a disaster and we had to stop the firing line and doing some serious retraining. ROCK6 Going way back when I first used optics on rifles, I don't recall ever thinking to use both systems together. Now I don't know if I read something that explained they were separate or I just assumed. Been too long ago. |
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Originally Posted By gman556: Whenever I tried resting the pistol in a rest I would get larger groups, but when I rested my arms from my wrists all the way up to my shoulders on a big range bag without the pistol contacting anything using normal grip like I was unsupported I would get better groups for zeroing. I get more consistent and repeatable results if I put my arms on the rest and have the gun supported only by my hands out in space in front of the rest. |
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Originally Posted By dmk0210: This happens with me as well. I get more consistent and repeatable results if I put my arms on the rest and have the gun supported only by my hands out in space in front of the rest. Originally Posted By dmk0210: Originally Posted By gman556: Whenever I tried resting the pistol in a rest I would get larger groups, but when I rested my arms from my wrists all the way up to my shoulders on a big range bag without the pistol contacting anything using normal grip like I was unsupported I would get better groups for zeroing. I get more consistent and repeatable results if I put my arms on the rest and have the gun supported only by my hands out in space in front of the rest. For a while I was writing off some of my handloads because of this. I did try placing a towel in the u notch of the rest and that made some more difference, but I found the latter to be the best result for me. |
Liberal men are pissing their panties like little girls over guns all the time, like wusses, it's really pathetic that grown men can't act like....well, men.
m14brian
m14brian
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Originally Posted By AJE: I'd never do it off hand at distance, I'm a good shot and wouldn't assume I can get close to the mechanical accuracy of the gun by shooting offhand. Then once zero'd, I confirm that I can get good hits at 25y on a B8 target. And if you look at the 10y zero with a ballistic calculator, it's not a bad zero compared to 25y. |
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I zero supported at 15 yards then confirm offhand at the same distance. I chose this zero distance based on my carry ammo which is Federal 124gr +P HST. I have found this zero to be more effective for me than a 25 yard zero. This is the ballistic table from Federal's online calculator at 70F with a 5mph wind. 
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Ill offer my .02. If using a rest to zero a handgun I have found that if you do anything other than just steady the pistol, it will shoot high. This is a coming from zeroing 500 S&W, 460s etc. You could bear down on the gun and get better groups but it would invariably shoot high in the field. I zero my G21 duty gun at 25 yards resting my arms on a shooting bag. I may try the methods discussed above next time. |
| I generally start w/ the dot on top of the front sight to get me close. Then I shoot offhand but w/ my shoulder against the concrete divider at the local range I go to. Gives me decent support for off hand. Starts out close enough and fine tune from there. |
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Reminder to zero using your carry ammo, or your specific competition ammo if it's a competition gun. I will lollipop the dot on the front sight to get it close, then shoot offhand at 25 yards. Sometimes resting forearms on a bench. I have also noticed that resting the pistol itself will negatively effect groups. All my red dot equipped pistols end up with the dot on the right hand corner of the front iron. Just an example of how they are two separate sighting systems and can be different. |
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| As others have said I like to line up with irons to get on paper. I zero offhand 15 yards. Confirm good repeatable hits at 25. Then I like to pop a couple clays in the range berm at 40 yards to build confidence in the zero. |
What it boils down to is that they fear an effective resistance to their power: So, Left in power=Guns bad, mmmmkay...?, Right in power=Guns good!-thskirk
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I don't zero them from a rest because I don't shoot them from a rest, and doing so can (in my experience) dramatically change POI. Basically, I zero windage to the irons, then I do a walkback drill on a dueling tree plate back to around 35 yards to get the elevation right and make minor corrections to windage. Typically it doesn't require much adjustment. This results in a quick zero that will get you within a USPSA A zone easily out to 50 which is the outer limit of distance that you'll expect to see in a match or defensive gun use. You don't need a 30 shot group to zero a pistol red dot lol, that's ridiculous. |
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I spent a lot of time looking for a "definitive method" to zero my very first dot (just recently purchased and not yet been to the range with it). What I found was pretty much all over the place. What I've done so far is get my dot pretty close with a laser boresight. The rest of what I'll do is based on a combination of advice for zeroing and advice for learning how to shoot with a red dot instead of iron sights. I will spend time at the range shooting from a rest to tweak the zero until the holes in the target are where the dot was. Then I'll practice shooting off hand to keep my hits where I want them. My plan is to start out at 10 yards - the ballistics seem to put 9mm 25 yard shots close a 10 yard zero - and practice, practice, practice. As for the "rocket science" part, I want the physical zero to be as solid and accurate as possible, so any issues with accuracy are training problems, not mechanical problems. By taking ME out of the equation for zeroing the red dot and making it all about dialing the dot to where the gun hits from a rest, there's no question of where accuracy variation comes from, and I can train myself to get better and better simply by practicing the basics and being focused on aim. |