|
Originally Posted By DAVE_M: Listen to it or don't. Why even bother going to 8 hour classes when you can read how to shoot on AR15.com? That said, formal training is not the same as a podcast. Relax man. 
|
"People don't think Cola Warrior be like it is but it do..." - George Washington
|
Originally Posted By ken_mays:
Because who doesn't want to spend 3 hours hearing someone tell you what you could read in 20 minutes? But the free form unstructured discussion format allows for a LOT of really good info, pointed anecdotes, and back and forth debate that wouldn't have ever been present in a 30 minute one sided pre-planned and bullet point outlined traditional format. I can't listen to every episode, but when there's a topic I'm interested in, there's No better way to get real insight on the topic at hand. |
Please, call me Joe
Follow me on Instagram!
http://instagram.com/tcba_joe/
Follow me on Instagram!
http://instagram.com/tcba_joe/
| I love getting data and what not from podcasts, white papers, research, etc. But bottom line, instead of rambling along on the internet, people should really go out and prove items to themselves if they care enough about something. Do your own research. Likely your experiences will fall inline with the aforementioned sources. |
|
For anyone thinking about MRDS or don't want to spend RMR money PSA has the 507C on sale for $255 with coupon code "optics" and free shipping. https://palmettostatearmory.com/holosun-circle-dot-solar-power-reflex-sight-hs507c.html |
Please, call me Joe
Follow me on Instagram!
http://instagram.com/tcba_joe/
Follow me on Instagram!
http://instagram.com/tcba_joe/
|
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
For anyone thinking about MRDS or don't want to spend RMR money PSA has the 507C on sale for $255 with coupon code "optics" and free shipping. https://palmettostatearmory.com/holosun-circle-dot-solar-power-reflex-sight-hs507c.html 
|
"People don't think Cola Warrior be like it is but it do..." - George Washington
 Trijicon Type 2 RMR at 20K dropped 40 times too. Still trucking same zero the whole time 
|
Isaiah 1:18 - "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD: "though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow"
|
Originally Posted By 45-Seventy: The easy answer: RMR or Holosun 507/508 is you’re on a budget. Send it to Primary Machine. Attached File |
Does Somebody Need A Hug?
|
Made this for another thread ... sticking it here too. Attached File |
Isaiah 1:18 - "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD: "though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow"
|
Originally Posted By Fooboy:
Target focus. Better accuracy across the board. Speed is the same up close with some practice, better at medium/longer distance.' If you don't, you don't see the dot. I've been working with the slide-mounted RDS heavily in the last year. There are definitely benefits, but they result from having essentially an electronic coach on top of the pistol. To quote Ashton Ray of 360 Performance Shooting, the sights whisper to you. The dot screams at you. The dot highlights inconsistencies in your presentation. The dot teaches you to stop over-confirming your sights. The dot frees up a little bit of brain power so it can work on the trigger rather than worrying over the movement of your sights. The dot teaches you about wobble zone. The dot isn't doing anything for you besides making some things easily visible that you have been missing before. To show you what I mean, do something like shoot a group at 25 yards under time pressure with the dot on. Then do the exact same drill with the dot turned off using your irons. You probably will not find a dramatic difference in performance assuming you can see your sights properly. (Dots are the king for people with eyesight problems) The problem with the dot is that it's virtues are most clearly evident at the things we do least with a defensive pistol. The typical defensive use of a pistol happens at 7 yards and in where even with a lot of practice I'm still a bit faster with irons than a dot. We likely are not standing stock still in a real defensive situation and don't have the luxury of a perfect presentation due to movement, responding to a threat, etc. So the dot is actually a little harder to usefully pick up in the close range threat that is the most likely problem you are solving with a pistol. Most people suck at shooting past 10 yards and find that they are able to shoot better groups at 25 using the dot. Therefore because it helps them do something they sucked at before they think it's awesome...but that's not really the metric. Yes, we should be concerned with our ability to hit what we want to hit beyond 7-10 yards, but we also need to keep what we're doing in mind. For people who can't see the sights, the dot is the best thing you are going to get. For people who can see the sights, the dot is going to show the most benefit in situations that are least likely to happen in self defense. You can certainly train with the dot to reduce the gap between the dot and iron sights, but it takes a while and relies on some things that may not be there in the real deal. It's not a universal good unless your eyesight stops you from seeing the sights. Frankly it's a little more useful as a training aid, in my opinion, than as a sight. Having that coach on top of your slide is beneficial to eliminating wasted, inefficient movement in your draw and presentation to the target. It's useful for helping you learn what "good enough" looks like with iron sights. etc. I've been working with the RDS in the last year precisely because it's becoming a thing and I've been trying to work out what it's really about and I'm at take it or leave it. I've shot my Gen5 G17 MOS pistol very well, but I've also experienced battery death and the inability to see the dot because the brightness setting was wrong and shot every bit as well with the backup irons on the gun despite the fact that the lower 1/3 co-witness of the iron sights is a shitty sight picture. The key really is all about trigger control. |
RIP Todd Louis Green - Help research working on a cure for cancer!
http://rampageforthecure.org/
http://rampageforthecure.org/
|
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
For anyone thinking about MRDS or don't want to spend RMR money PSA has the 507C on sale for $255 with coupon code "optics" and free shipping. https://palmettostatearmory.com/holosun-circle-dot-solar-power-reflex-sight-hs507c.html Just keep the flaws of an open-emitter optic in mind. Buddy of mine shot a match last week and lost his dot because it was cold and his breath was enough to make the dot on his RMR unusable halfway through a stage. |
RIP Todd Louis Green - Help research working on a cure for cancer!
http://rampageforthecure.org/
http://rampageforthecure.org/
|
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777: Speed is the same up close if you get everything just right on the draw. If you don't, you don't see the dot. I've been working with the slide-mounted RDS heavily in the last year. There are definitely benefits, but they result from having essentially an electronic coach on top of the pistol. To quote Ashton Ray of 360 Performance Shooting, the sights whisper to you. The dot screams at you. The dot highlights inconsistencies in your presentation. The dot teaches you to stop over-confirming your sights. The dot frees up a little bit of brain power so it can work on the trigger rather than worrying over the movement of your sights. The dot teaches you about wobble zone. The dot isn't doing anything for you besides making some things easily visible that you have been missing before. To show you what I mean, do something like shoot a group at 25 yards under time pressure with the dot on. Then do the exact same drill with the dot turned off using your irons. You probably will not find a dramatic difference in performance assuming you can see your sights properly. (Dots are the king for people with eyesight problems) The problem with the dot is that it's virtues are most clearly evident at the things we do least with a defensive pistol. The typical defensive use of a pistol happens at 7 yards and in where even with a lot of practice I'm still a bit faster with irons than a dot. We likely are not standing stock still in a real defensive situation and don't have the luxury of a perfect presentation due to movement, responding to a threat, etc. So the dot is actually a little harder to usefully pick up in the close range threat that is the most likely problem you are solving with a pistol. Most people suck at shooting past 10 yards and find that they are able to shoot better groups at 25 using the dot. Therefore because it helps them do something they sucked at before they think it's awesome...but that's not really the metric. Yes, we should be concerned with our ability to hit what we want to hit beyond 7-10 yards, but we also need to keep what we're doing in mind. For people who can't see the sights, the dot is the best thing you are going to get. For people who can see the sights, the dot is going to show the most benefit in situations that are least likely to happen in self defense. You can certainly train with the dot to reduce the gap between the dot and iron sights, but it takes a while and relies on some things that may not be there in the real deal. It's not a universal good unless your eyesight stops you from seeing the sights. Frankly it's a little more useful as a training aid, in my opinion, than as a sight. Having that coach on top of your slide is beneficial to eliminating wasted, inefficient movement in your draw and presentation to the target. It's useful for helping you learn what "good enough" looks like with iron sights. etc. I've been working with the RDS in the last year precisely because it's becoming a thing and I've been trying to work out what it's really about and I'm at take it or leave it. I've shot my Gen5 G17 MOS pistol very well, but I've also experienced battery death and the inability to see the dot because the brightness setting was wrong and shot every bit as well with the backup irons on the gun despite the fact that the lower 1/3 co-witness of the iron sights is a shitty sight picture. The key really is all about trigger control. So would most other high level CO shooters. |
If you're good at something, never do it for free.
So one area where the dot has an advantage over the iron sight is in extremely long range shots on very small targets:
Fox squirrel...a big motherfucker...shot at 50 yards with my Gen5 G17 MOS using 124 grain +P HST. 
Grey squirrel, about 1/3 smaller than the fox squirrel above, shot at over 65 yards with the same combo. (I have a witness who saw me do it) I've killed 4 squirrels with my Gen5 G17 this season, primarily trying to thin the population because they are eating the wiring harnesses on a friend's vehicles costing him thousands in repair bills. The dot was useful in these longer shots for the simple reason that it is a more precise aiming point than the tip of the front sight. The dot, when dialed down to minimum visibility (for best clarity on the shape of the dot), is actually smaller in the window of my Aimpoint ACRO than the tritium insert in the front sight. As a result I can aim very, very precisely at longer ranges. And, as a result, I've been aim intelligently at the vitals of four squirrels and hit them. Two at about 50 yards hit in the vitals as you see on the fox squirrel, one in the spine from about 25 yards, and then the grey squirrel where he was quartering away and I favored just a tad too far right and got the entry wound just behind the rib cage instead of at the last rib. I couldn't make an aim point that precise with my front sight easily. I say "easily" because I have a little dimple at the very center of the tip of my front sight (used a punch to put it there) that is useful for being a more precise point of aim on very small targets, but it's difficult as shit to see in the woods in setting sunlight. How relevant is any of that for self defense use? It isn't, really. Those kinds of shots are not unheard of in defensive applications, but they are such statistical outliers that it's a man-bites-dog event more than anything else. |
RIP Todd Louis Green - Help research working on a cure for cancer!
http://rampageforthecure.org/
http://rampageforthecure.org/
|
Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:
As someone that’s been competing heavily with MRDS for a little over a year now, I completely disagree with some of your opinions regarding their limitations within 10 to 25 yards. People who regularly compete are continually training themselves with the equipment...which is something that typical defensive users are most certainly not doing. A guy who spends a lot of time working dryfire and competing in the carry optics division of USPSA or IDPA is going to have lots of reps and will figure a lot of shit out that would be very useful should they need to use their dot equipped pistol in a real defensive situation. That is not a description of your typical police officer. Which is the problem with this growing sentiment I'm seeing that dots are magic. They aren't, certainly not in all situations (including low light in concert with the use of bright lights) especially if you aren't putting in the work necessary to really become proficient. If you are putting in that kind of work you'll be proficient with whatever is on top of your gun. With that kind of work you'll be able to minimize the deficiencies up close. |
RIP Todd Louis Green - Help research working on a cure for cancer!
http://rampageforthecure.org/
http://rampageforthecure.org/
|
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777: I said the benefits of the dot are most evident beyond 10 yards. Their deficiencies are most evident at 7 yards and in. People who regularly compete are continually training themselves with the equipment...which is something that typical defensive users are most certainly not doing. A guy who spends a lot of time working dryfire and competing in the carry optics division of USPSA or IDPA is going to have lots of reps and will figure a lot of shit out that would be very useful should they need to use their dot equipped pistol in a real defensive situation. That is not a description of your typical police officer. Which is the problem with this growing sentiment I'm seeing that dots are magic. They aren't, certainly not in all situations (including low light in concert with the use of bright lights) especially if you aren't putting in the work necessary to really become proficient. If you are putting in that kind of work you'll be proficient with whatever is on top of your gun. With that kind of work you'll be able to minimize the deficiencies up close. All it takes is some dryfire and actual work to build proficiency. |
If you're good at something, never do it for free.
|
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777: Speed is the same up close if you get everything just right on the draw. If you don't, you don't see the dot. Originally Posted By John_Wayne777: Speed is the same up close if you get everything just right on the draw. If you don't, you don't see the dot. Originally Posted By John_Wayne777: I've been working with the slide-mounted RDS heavily in the last year. There are definitely benefits, but they result from having essentially an electronic coach on top of the pistol. To quote Ashton Ray of 360 Performance Shooting, the sights whisper to you. The dot screams at you. The dot highlights inconsistencies in your presentation. The dot teaches you to stop over-confirming your sights. The dot frees up a little bit of brain power so it can work on the trigger rather than worrying over the movement of your sights. The dot teaches you about wobble zone. The dot isn't doing anything for you besides making some things easily visible that you have been missing before. To show you what I mean, do something like shoot a group at 25 yards under time pressure with the dot on. Then do the exact same drill with the dot turned off using your irons. You probably will not find a dramatic difference in performance assuming you can see your sights properly. (Dots are the king for people with eyesight problems) The problem with the dot is that it's virtues are most clearly evident at the things we do least with a defensive pistol. The typical defensive use of a pistol happens at 7 yards and in where even with a lot of practice I'm still a bit faster with irons than a dot. We likely are not standing stock still in a real defensive situation and don't have the luxury of a perfect presentation due to movement, responding to a threat, etc. So the dot is actually a little harder to usefully pick up in the close range threat that is the most likely problem you are solving with a pistol. Most people suck at shooting past 10 yards and find that they are able to shoot better groups at 25 using the dot. Therefore because it helps them do something they sucked at before they think it's awesome...but that's not really the metric. Yes, we should be concerned with our ability to hit what we want to hit beyond 7-10 yards, but we also need to keep what we're doing in mind. For people who can't see the sights, the dot is the best thing you are going to get. For people who can see the sights, the dot is going to show the most benefit in situations that are least likely to happen in self defense. You can certainly train with the dot to reduce the gap between the dot and iron sights, but it takes a while and relies on some things that may not be there in the real deal. It's not a universal good unless your eyesight stops you from seeing the sights. Frankly it's a little more useful as a training aid, in my opinion, than as a sight. Having that coach on top of your slide is beneficial to eliminating wasted, inefficient movement in your draw and presentation to the target. It's useful for helping you learn what "good enough" looks like with iron sights. etc. I've been working with the RDS in the last year precisely because it's becoming a thing and I've been trying to work out what it's really about and I'm at take it or leave it. I've shot my Gen5 G17 MOS pistol very well, but I've also experienced battery death and the inability to see the dot because the brightness setting was wrong and shot every bit as well with the backup irons on the gun despite the fact that the lower 1/3 co-witness of the iron sights is a shitty sight picture. The key really is all about trigger control. You are making MANY generalities. If dots weren't faster, then every CO and Open shooter would be slower than Production or Limited shooters. |
|
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777: That is, once again, something I did not say. |
|
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777: That is, once again, something I did not say. However, you’re making far too many generalizations regarding use and capability. From your comments it seems as if you have some issues with your presentation and are projecting those upon others shooters. |
If you're good at something, never do it for free.
|
Originally Posted By DAVE_M: Replace "dot" with sights. If you screw up your draw, your sights are going to be misaligned. Many detractors of pistol RDS will use a bad presentation as a reason not to get a RDS, when in reality, a pistol RDS will actually HELP you fix your presentation. Stop assuming everyone that owns a handgun sucks at shooting. You are making MANY generalities. If dots weren't faster, then every CO and Open shooter would be slower than Production or Limited shooters. And As I have also said, a lot of the performance of a dot is predicated on presentation and Practice, where in the perfect world of competitors, they feel that will take care of it... but again, back in the real world, the world where a majority of hand gun shooters suck... those two things may not be present in the required amounts to make the Red dot the superior sighting system for the one time event they need to use a hand gun. If you don't see that, I'm not really sure what to tell you... |
Just Drop... Buckethead!
|
Originally Posted By Harv24:
If you have not noticed that, then you have not been paying attention in your little shooting circle... in a broader world view, collected over many decades, he is correct..... The majority of shooters suck with a handgun.... And As I have also said, a lot of the performance of a dot is predicated on presentation and Practice, where in the perfect world of competitors, they feel that will take care of it... but again, back in the real world, the world where a majority of hand gun shooters suck... those two things may not be present in the required amounts to make the Red dot the superior sighting system for the one time event they need to use a hand gun. If you don't see that, I'm not really sure what to tell you... You are willingly ignoring that if your dot is not in the window, your IRON SIGHTS are misaligned. If misaligned irons are "good enough" to fire a shot, then your dot outside of the window is good enough also. |
|
Originally Posted By Harv24: If you have not noticed that, then you have not been paying attention in your little shooting circle... in a broader world view, collected over many decades, he is correct..... The majority of shooters suck with a handgun.... And As I have also said, a lot of the performance of a dot is predicated on presentation and Practice, where in the perfect world of competitors, they feel that will take care of it... but again, back in the real world, the world where a majority of hand gun shooters suck... those two things may not be present in the required amounts to make the Red dot the superior sighting system for the one time event they need to use a hand gun. If you don't see that, I'm not really sure what to tell you... And if they suck with irons they’re going to suck with a dot. I don’t see how that changes the fact that the MRDS has clear advantages under the overwhelming large number of conditions under which you will be aiming a handgun. |
If you're good at something, never do it for free.
|
Originally Posted By 45-Seventy: I’m fully aware that people suck with handguns... And if they suck with irons they’re going to suck with a dot. I don’t see how that changes the fact that the MRDS has clear advantages under the overwhelming large number of conditions under which you will be aiming a handgun. You know you're in the minority of hand gun shooters? Right... You put the time in and get the perfect or near perfect presentation... You put the work in, and you reap the results... Just like anything. But you have to know that being in the minority... those advantages will not be present for a large cross section... it's just the way it is... No matter how awesome you think they are. I get it, a lot of competitors get it, a lot of trainers get it, but they also get what's required to obtain it...and how small of a minority that it. |
Just Drop... Buckethead!
|
Originally Posted By DAVE_M:
so if you can't see your dot, you sure as hell don't see your sights. I can make effective hits up close with my sights all sort of fucked up - but still visible. During testing on Sunday, any flaws in presentation resulted in a frozen shooter looking for a dot. |
"People don't think Cola Warrior be like it is but it do..." - George Washington
|
Originally Posted By DAVE_M: Just as the other guy is doing, you're making generalized statements about shooters as a whole. From a strictly physical standpoint, pistol RDS have merit. When you break it down to what they allow the shooter to do and to see, the pistol RDS will always be on top. You are willingly ignoring that if your dot is not in the window, your IRON SIGHTS are misaligned. If misaligned irons are "good enough" to fire a shot, then your dot outside of the window is good enough also. 
You keep saying were all telling you RDS's have no merit. Which is not the case... But the merits will only be there in a measurable quantity only if the shooter puts in the time and practice... if not, it's not something a person can add to there pistol, and automatically be better. Just like a scope doesn't make a shitty shooter, shoot better, just makes them see better. A red dot will show how crappy your presentation is... Yet folks have fought and survived gun fights with irons for hundreds of years... You RDS guys turn a lot of potential users off with your "it's your funeral" RDS or nothing approach. |
Just Drop... Buckethead!
|
Originally Posted By Harv24:
You RDS guys turn a lot of potential users off with your "it's your funeral" RDS or nothing approach.
I shot the BAER drill cold Sunday morning in 7.1 seconds. What are ya'll pulling with those fancy dots? |
"People don't think Cola Warrior be like it is but it do..." - George Washington
|
Originally Posted By bcauz3y: Ya know, we should just pick a standardized pistol challenge and have these dot boys post em up.
I shot the BAER drill cold Sunday morning in 7.1 seconds. What are ya'll pulling with those fancy dots? |
Isaiah 1:18 - "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD: "though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow"
|
Originally Posted By bcauz3y:
5m Correction: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/221816/20191111_181616-1157780.jpg |
Just Drop... Buckethead!
|
Originally Posted By bcauz3y: Eh, that's incorrect. I can make effective hits up close with my sights all sort of fucked up - but still visible. During testing on Sunday, any flaws in presentation resulted in a frozen shooter looking for a dot. You might want to do more testing. Btw, when I say see your sights, I’m talking about having an acceptable sight picture, not physically seeing that they are still on the gun. |
|
Originally Posted By bcauz3y:
Ya know, we should just pick a standardized pistol challenge and have these dot boys post em up.
I shot the BAER drill cold Sunday morning in 7.1 seconds. What are ya'll pulling with those fancy dots? Originally Posted By bcauz3y:
Originally Posted By Harv24:
You RDS guys turn a lot of potential users off with your "it's your funeral" RDS or nothing approach.
I shot the BAER drill cold Sunday morning in 7.1 seconds. What are ya'll pulling with those fancy dots?
|
"If you cant do something smart, do something right"
|
Originally Posted By bcauz3y: Ya know, we should just pick a standardized pistol challenge and have these dot boys post em up.
I shot the BAER drill cold Sunday morning in 7.1 seconds. What are ya'll pulling with those fancy dots? If you had listened to the podcast that I posted a few pages back, you would have listened to what BJ Norris had to say. Here is an article that talks about how BJ did shooting with a dot. https://www.ammoland.com/2019/06/wilson-combat-team-member-b-j-norris-top-shot-at-world-speed-shooting-championship/#axzz651glJN1M |
|
My experience after ~ 1.5 years of shooting an RMR is this:
- I had a very good presentation and acclimated very quickly (100 rounds) - I am more accurate, confident, and faster* - I am a better irons shooter given improvements from shooting the RMR translate to irons (better presentation & trigger control, less hesitation) *I will say, if distance is very close and there is no movement (of target or shooter), the benefit of an RMR is diminished (but IMO not 0 and not negative). However, as distance and or movement begin are introduced - the benefits are immediate and material. I dont think flat footed, static target shooting is really a good measure. So, shoot the BAER drill @ 5 yards static, vs shooting while moving/backing up or stapled to this -- and you will see your irons score drop and your MRDS scores up. 
As evidence, per the Sage dynamics white paper there were multiple Force on Force scenarios where irons and MRDS equipped Glock 17s were used in dynamic scenarios ranging from arms length to 12 feet. This is close shooting with movement and decision making. Results: IRONS: Attached File MRDS: Attached File So, is a MRDS required for competent pistol shooting? No. But, if you train out any bad habits, you will be substantially better. If it is worth the $400-600 dollars is up to you. It is worth it to me. |
Isaiah 1:18 - "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD: "though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow"
|
Originally Posted By Fooboy:
My experience after ~ 1.5 years of shooting an RMR is this: - I had a very good presentation and acclimated very quickly (100 rounds) - I am more accurate, confident, and faster* - I am a better irons shooter given improvements from shooting the RMR translate to irons (better presentation & trigger control, less hesitation) *I will say, if distance is very close and there is no movement (of target or shooter), the benefit of an RMR is diminished (but IMO not 0 and not negative). However, as distance and or movement begin are introduced - the benefits are immediate and material. I dont think flat footed, static target shooting is really a good measure. So, shoot the BAER drill @ 5 yards static, vs shooting while moving/backing up or stapled to this -- and you will see your irons score drop and your MRDS scores up. So, is a MRDS required for competent pistol shooting? No. But, if you train out any bad habits, you will be substantially better. If it is worth the $400-600 dollars is up to you. It is worth it to me. |
|
Originally Posted By DAVE_M: That’s your inability to recognize what is “good enough” with a dot. Originally Posted By DAVE_M: That’s your inability to recognize what is “good enough” with a dot. Originally Posted By DAVE_M: You might want to do more testing. Originally Posted By DAVE_M: Btw, when I say see your sights, I’m talking about having an acceptable sight picture, not physically seeing that they are still on the gun. |
"People don't think Cola Warrior be like it is but it do..." - George Washington
|
Originally Posted By bcauz3y: I'm talking about being unable to see ANY dot. How is a missing dot ever "good enough"? 
This is a common drill to shoot to allow newer shooters to understand what it means to have a "good enough" sight picture relative the the distance you're shooting. Do this same drill with a dot. Put the dot in the far corners of the window and pull the trigger. |
|
Originally Posted By DAVE_M: The barrel pointing relative to where you are aiming. If the dot is outside of the window, then your irons would be misaligned as well. The difference is that you have trained yourself to recognize the position of the front sight relative to the rear sight and move the gun. You are still fishing for your sights, you're just fishing for iron sight alignment than hoping a dot appears in the window. The entire point of shooting with a RDS is to NOT stare at your sights. Threat focus is the main benefit of a RDS. If you are an inexperienced shooter and your presentation is so god awful that you can't figure out how to point your gun at the target without hunting for your sights, then you need more dry fire practice. https://files.osgnetworks.tv/9/files/2012/11/Shooting_002.jpg This is a common drill to shoot to allow newer shooters to understand what it means to have a "good enough" sight picture relative the the distance you're shooting. Do this same drill with a dot. Put the dot in the far corners of the window and pull the trigger. The point I was making is that there are plenty of go-fast scenarios where effective hits with imperfect iron alignment are possible without being able to see the dot. |
"People don't think Cola Warrior be like it is but it do..." - George Washington
|
Anyone have experience with the Venom? I like what I'm seeing, but the cheap price has me concerned. Too many issues with the RMR, which failed this weekend while at the range, ironically. |
"People don't think Cola Warrior be like it is but it do..." - George Washington
|
Originally Posted By bcauz3y: I'm well aware of this, it's established doctrine and literally exactly what I just said. The point I was making is that there are plenty of go-fast scenarios where effective hits with imperfect iron alignment are possible without being able to see the dot. Originally Posted By bcauz3y: I'm well aware of this, it's established doctrine and literally exactly what I just said. The point I was making is that there are plenty of go-fast scenarios where effective hits with imperfect iron alignment are possible without being able to see the dot. Originally Posted By bcauz3y:
I'm talking about being unable to see ANY dot. How is a missing dot ever "good enough"? |
|
Originally Posted By bcauz3y: Eh, that's incorrect. I can make effective hits up close with my sights all sort of fucked up - but still visible. During testing on Sunday, any flaws in presentation resulted in a frozen shooter looking for a dot. |
If you're good at something, never do it for free.
|
Originally Posted By DAVE_M: If that's the point you were making, why did you ask this? |
"People don't think Cola Warrior be like it is but it do..." - George Washington
|
Originally Posted By bcauz3y:
Anyone have experience with the Venom? I like what I'm seeing, but the cheap price has me concerned. Too many issues with the RMR, which failed this weekend while at the range, ironically. What issues did you have with "the RMR" and what specific type and model were you using? |
|
Originally Posted By bcauz3y:
Anyone have experience with the Venom? I like what I'm seeing, but the cheap price has me concerned. Too many issues with the RMR, which failed this weekend while at the range, ironically. |
If you're good at something, never do it for free.
|
Originally Posted By bcauz3y: There's a difference between not being able to see something and being able to see it and it being acceptably fucked up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XdyPQ3nCbc |
|
Originally Posted By DAVE_M:
See the white paper. I know many who have had Venoms and Vipers fail at low round counts. Typically they lose zero. What issues did you have with "the RMR" and what specific type and model were you using? This is apparently a common issue. When I got to work this morning, another coworker had the same problem recently. It's so common that our local gunsmith has a flat rate fee for it. 
|
"People don't think Cola Warrior be like it is but it do..." - George Washington