Posted: 6/18/2025 7:30:45 AM EDT
|
I have RMRs on all my handguns. I've read that people prefer larger windows of the SRO or even the new RMR HD. The way I see, the minimum standard should be having the dot centered in the window every draw/presentation on an RMR sized optic. If you draw and don't have the dot in the window, you would be missing the shot anyways. So what's the advantage of larger windows? I can see the argument that if the dot isn't in the window you can correct more easily with larger optic windows. But with minimum practice you will end up with your dot in the window on a smaller RMR. Also, when transitioning between targets, I'm target focused. I'm not looking for my dot and then trying to put it on the target. I'm pointing and the dot is there. And through recoil I'm not hunting for the dot because after the shot my handgun falls right back where it started, so once again the dot is in the smaller window of the RMR. Been thinking a lot about this, wonder if someone can fill me in. |
Joined:
Jun 2025
Posts:
30
EE: 0% (0)
TX, USA
|
Originally Posted By AndysAR15name: I have RMRs on all my handguns. I've read that people prefer larger windows of the SRO or even the new RMR HD. The way I see, the minimum standard should be having the dot centered in the window every draw/presentation on an RMR sized optic. If you draw and don't have the dot in the window, you would be missing the shot anyways. So what's the advantage of larger windows? I can see the argument that if the dot isn't in the window you can correct more easily with larger optic windows. But with minimum practice you will end up with your dot in the window on a smaller RMR. Also, when transitioning between targets, I'm target focused. I'm not looking for my dot and then trying to put it on the target. I'm pointing and the dot is there. And through recoil I'm not hunting for the dot because after the shot my handgun falls right back where it started, so once again the dot is in the smaller window of the RMR. Been thinking a lot about this, wonder if someone can fill me in. IMO, you’re right. To that point, I also don’t get the, “I’m faster with a 6 MOA dot”. If you’ve drilled your presentation enough to build consistent, repeatable presentation, what difference does the red dot size make? The dot is either there, and visible, or it isn’t. It’s a glowing red dot. Why would the dot being bigger make any difference? I have 1 MOA RMR2s for that reason. When I originally got the OG RMRs, I got one with the 3.25 MOA, and one with the 1 MOA. Saw no advantage to the bigger dot. |
|
The larger window allows for some margin of error, your presentation will not always be perfect. I think it also helps with transitions to be able to pick up the dot faster. I find thick bezels to be very annoying, I've never liked any of the Aimpoint pistol optics. |
|
Originally Posted By Strabo: I have a tiny Hex Wasp RDS on my Hellcat Pro, and a larger Vortex Defender RDS on my Echelon. Both are co-witnessed to the irons. I honestly feel that I can get on target from the draw faster with the smaller windowed Hex Wasp... To me, this sounds like you have a better developed index on the Hellcat. If you practiced a bunch with the Echelon, maybe that'd become the better index. Maybe not, but developing an index seems to me what the primary goal of dry fire should be for most people. |
|
Originally Posted By bluemax_1: I also don’t get the, “I’m faster with a 6 MOA dot”. If you’ve drilled your presentation enough to build consistent, repeatable presentation, what difference does the red dot size make? The dot is either there, and visible, or it isn’t. It’s a glowing red dot. Why would the dot being bigger make any difference? I have 1 MOA RMR2s for that reason. When I originally got the OG RMRs, I got one with the 3.25 MOA, and one with the 1 MOA. Saw no advantage to the bigger dot. Eyesight is a thing. #1 Larger dots are quicker to pickup for the majority of shooters. #2 Smaller dots can be incredibly hard to see by some. #3 Why do you even care about what other people prefer? You're not buying it, so mind your own business. |
|
The fastest shooters are competition shooters. What optics are they using? 407k, RMR, etc? No.... 507COMP, Defender XL, SRO, etc. I think people who are shooting up to 2000 rounds a day have a better handle on what works for them than someone who shoots far less. |
| Competitive shooters know that the taller window allows the dot to stay inside the window throughout the entire recoil cycle. You don’t fire one shot then wait for the dot to resettle - the dot keeps moving, creating a smear that the shooter tracks. If you wait for the dot to stop moving, you are shooting way too slow. |
|
Originally Posted By DavidY: Eyesight is a thing. #1 Larger dots are quicker to pickup for the majority of shooters. #2 Smaller dots can be incredibly hard to see by some. #3 Why do you even care about what other people prefer? You're not buying it, so mind your own business. Originally Posted By DavidY: Originally Posted By bluemax_1: I also don’t get the, “I’m faster with a 6 MOA dot”. If you’ve drilled your presentation enough to build consistent, repeatable presentation, what difference does the red dot size make? The dot is either there, and visible, or it isn’t. It’s a glowing red dot. Why would the dot being bigger make any difference? I have 1 MOA RMR2s for that reason. When I originally got the OG RMRs, I got one with the 3.25 MOA, and one with the 1 MOA. Saw no advantage to the bigger dot. Eyesight is a thing. #1 Larger dots are quicker to pickup for the majority of shooters. #2 Smaller dots can be incredibly hard to see by some. #3 Why do you even care about what other people prefer? You're not buying it, so mind your own business. Lol. Sensitive much? |
|
Originally Posted By bluemax_1: Lol. Sensitive much? Originally Posted By bluemax_1: Originally Posted By DavidY: Originally Posted By bluemax_1: I also don’t get the, “I’m faster with a 6 MOA dot”. If you’ve drilled your presentation enough to build consistent, repeatable presentation, what difference does the red dot size make? The dot is either there, and visible, or it isn’t. It’s a glowing red dot. Why would the dot being bigger make any difference? I have 1 MOA RMR2s for that reason. When I originally got the OG RMRs, I got one with the 3.25 MOA, and one with the 1 MOA. Saw no advantage to the bigger dot. Eyesight is a thing. #1 Larger dots are quicker to pickup for the majority of shooters. #2 Smaller dots can be incredibly hard to see by some. #3 Why do you even care about what other people prefer? You're not buying it, so mind your own business. Lol. Sensitive much? I'm not the grown man who thinks everyone else should think as you. For starters, I prefer the company of women. But you do you. |
|
Originally Posted By DavidY: The fastest shooters are competition shooters. What optics are they using? 407k, RMR, etc? No.... 507COMP, Defender XL, SRO, etc. I think people who are shooting up to 2000 rounds a day have a better handle on what works for them than someone who shoots far less. The question was why. This is a tech sub, no ones trying to convince competition shooters of anything. |
|
Originally Posted By StealthyBlagga: Competitive shooters know that the taller window allows the dot to stay inside the window throughout the entire recoil cycle. You don’t fire one shot then wait for the dot to resettle - the dot keeps moving, creating a smear that the shooter tracks. If you wait for the dot to stop moving, you are shooting way too slow. Gotcha. I'll say, I don't wait for the dot to settle, but it makes sense that you could probably shave off some fractions of seconds with the height increase once you reach a certain level of marksmanship. Maybe it would be worth trying the HD variant to see if I notice any difference. |
|
Originally Posted By StealthyBlagga: Competitive shooters know that the taller window allows the dot to stay inside the window throughout the entire recoil cycle. You don’t fire one shot then wait for the dot to resettle - the dot keeps moving, creating a smear that the shooter tracks. If you wait for the dot to stop moving, you are shooting way too slow. This. Fast shooters are pulling the trigger when they see red in the A-Zone. RE: MOA size, a bigger red smear is easier, and faster, to see than a small one. |
|
Originally Posted By AndysAR15name: The question was why. This is a tech sub, no ones trying to convince competition shooters of anything. Originally Posted By AndysAR15name: Originally Posted By DavidY: The fastest shooters are competition shooters. What optics are they using? 407k, RMR, etc? No.... 507COMP, Defender XL, SRO, etc. I think people who are shooting up to 2000 rounds a day have a better handle on what works for them than someone who shoots far less. The question was why. This is a tech sub, no ones trying to convince competition shooters of anything. Nobody said anything about convincing competition shooters. But seeing as how they have a lot more rounds down range than almost every typical handgun owner, they could be considered a source of information. If they are using typical dot sizes (3-6moa), than the real difference is window size. |
|
Originally Posted By bad2006z71: I have optic nerve damage. Not even close to competition level shooter. However, I do find that I can see a 6 moa dot and a larger window better due to the nerve damage. I tried a few different optics and preferred the 8moa circle of the 407CO over the 8moa dot (CompDOT), 10moa ACSS Vulcan chevron, or any combination of the 2mos/32moa Holosun offerings (SCS, 507C, 508T). The CompDOT definitely has the large TV feel, but the medium circle felt better to me. Large enough to find easily, circle to not totally obscure the target at long distances. |
|
Originally Posted By AndysAR15name: I have RMRs on all my handguns. I've read that people prefer larger windows of the SRO or even the new RMR HD. The way I see, the minimum standard should be having the dot centered in the window every draw/presentation on an RMR sized optic. If you draw and don't have the dot in the window, you would be missing the shot anyways. So what's the advantage of larger windows? I can see the argument that if the dot isn't in the window you can correct more easily with larger optic windows. But with minimum practice you will end up with your dot in the window on a smaller RMR. Also, when transitioning between targets, I'm target focused. I'm not looking for my dot and then trying to put it on the target. I'm pointing and the dot is there. And through recoil I'm not hunting for the dot because after the shot my handgun falls right back where it started, so once again the dot is in the smaller window of the RMR. Been thinking a lot about this, wonder if someone can fill me in. You are operating under a few ideas which I don't think are correct. 1. You aren't always going to be able to center the dot so the idea of that of a minimum standard just isn't realistic. Dots aren't sights and the whole point of them is not having to line multiple things up and being able to shoot whatever the dot is on wherever it is in the screen. 2. A lot of what you are saying is correct technique but it seems like you are only looking at it from ideal conditions. The gun won't always track straight up and down. You aren't always in a good position or orientation and any time you move away from ideal those bigger windows can help. People would run 60mm dots if they weren't heavy and cumbersome. Look at rifles. People prefer bigger dots and they are easier to line up and steadier than a handgun. |
BikerNut:
Normal people like motorcycles. Real people like motorcycles.
People who don't like motorcycles are just... weird.
Normal people like motorcycles. Real people like motorcycles.
People who don't like motorcycles are just... weird.
|
If you are shooting from a static position, like at the gun range then 2, 4, 6 MOA, small/ large widow side, you won’t notice a difference. Moving, heavy breathing, tried, pressure to acquiring targets fast, shooting fast, targets moving (all this happening all at once), then larger windows and bigger MOA shines. |
|
Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: You are operating under a few ideas which I don't think are correct. 1. You aren't always going to be able to center the dot so the idea of that of a minimum standard just isn't realistic. Dots aren't sights and the whole point of them is not having to line multiple things up and being able to shoot whatever the dot is on wherever it is in the screen. 2. A lot of what you are saying is correct technique but it seems like you are only looking at it from ideal conditions. The gun won't always track straight up and down. You aren't always in a good position or orientation and any time you move away from ideal those bigger windows can help. People would run 60mm dots if they weren't heavy and cumbersome. Look at rifles. People prefer bigger dots and they are easier to line up and steadier than a handgun. 1) I wasn't advocating for a minimum standard, more so that the RMR window seems plenty adequate. I use dots the way they are intended, I'm not lining multiple things up. I find that if the dot isn't somewhere in the window of my RMR it's because I'm off. 2) Ultimately this makes sense though. Increasing the window size sounds like it would help especially when exhausted/tired, in contorted positions, or looking to squeeze out fractions of a second over a course. I would imagine there is a point in which there are diminishing returns , sort of like a 18mm window on a T2 for a rile is adequate. But as you noted, handguns are much more instable, so being >18mm would probably be ideal if it were practical. I'm gonna pick up a HD version and see if I notice any increase in abilities. I only shoot what I carry and vice versa, so unfortunately that HD is about as big as I can realistically go. |
| The way you described centering the dot is what I meant by lining up two things kind of like how a peep sight works. I understand why you prefer it that way and it absolutely can show that you're not set up 100% correctly but it's not necessary to make the shot. |
BikerNut:
Normal people like motorcycles. Real people like motorcycles.
People who don't like motorcycles are just... weird.
Normal people like motorcycles. Real people like motorcycles.
People who don't like motorcycles are just... weird.
|
Larger window means your eye can be off-axis to a larger degree and still see the dot. This helps if you ever have to hunt for the dot. Also, a larger window lets your eye pick up the dot more quickly during/after recoil in a rapid string of fire. Yes, practice can improve your draw and having the dot being centered in the widow upon presentation. That being said, you’re not always going to have to be using a gun in the “ideal draw” posture. You might be drawing one handed, picking it up off handed, doing a seated draw, kneeling, draw laying on your side or holding the gun at an angle to shoot though a barricade, running (blading at 45?) while aiming with your head bouncing around, or maybe you’re winded and your hands are shaking from an adrenaline dump… Point being, you can’t practice everything you might encounter and a larger FOV through the lens lets your eye be off axis while still having a point of aim. And a real world self dense situation is about the most unpredictable wild scenario you might encounter… so all things being equal I’ll take the bigger window if I can conceal it and it’s tough. |
Joined:
Jun 2025
Posts:
9
EE: 0% (0)
VIR
| Given the choice, and depending on intended use, I definitely prefer my SRO to my RMRs. I'm no comp shooter and, yeah, I could use more reps and dry firing. But the bigger window is more forgiving and is a nicer presentation under NODs for sure. I wouldn't want to CCW the SRO though. |