I placed an order for a case of 9mm ammo from Locked and Loaded last week.  I checked the tracking and saw that the ammo was delivered yesterday in Olympia, WA (not where I live).  Checked my order and my account and it shows my preferred dealer listed for FFL items and it seems that's where they shipped it.  I fired off an email about this mistake and they already replied.  They claim no mistake and that as of Jan 1, 2024, ammo can only be shipped to FFLs.

They cited the law showing that retailers in State have to be licensed by the State to sell ammo.  I have already received SEVERAL other shipments of ammo this year, including this week from MidwayUSA and others.  Apparently these guys are nearly alone interpreting WA law this way.  Anyone heard of anyone else?  I thought they were initially saying it was due to the BS consumer protection stuff , but they cited this:

Law cited

(3) No dealer may sell or otherwise transfer, or expose for sale or transfer, or have in his or her possession with intent to sell, or otherwise transfer, any ammunition without being licensed as provided in this section.
(4) The duly constituted licensing authorities of any city, town, or political subdivision of this state shall grant licenses in forms prescribed by the director of licensing effective for not more than one year from the date of issue permitting the licensee to sell firearms within this state subject to the following conditions, for breach of any of which the license shall be forfeited and the licensee subject to punishment as provided in RCW 9.41.010 through 9.41.810. A licensing authority shall forward a copy of each license granted to the department of licensing. The department of licensing shall notify the department of revenue of the name and address of each dealer licensed under this section.


Nuts.

rob

Why did they ship it to an FFL without your consent? Was that your mistake or theirs?

Regardless it sounds like they shipped it to a location that is licensed to sell ammo. So I don't see what the problem is.

I don't understand why you can't pick the ammo up.

And NO this is not the law, but the democrats have openly said that they want to make online ammo sales to WA residents illegal, along with a FOID style card required to buy it, so it is coming down the pike whether you like it or not.

They'll likely start adding 'transfer fees' as well.

Whoa. Victim blaming.

There was noting about the order that said to me it was FFL-only.  I have bought several things from them that were FFL items, so they had the local dealer's info and during order checkout, that name showed as "firearms will ship to the following address" (or something like that).  But since I was buying ammo, I thought nothing of it.

Sure, I can go get the ammo.  I only discovered this issue after 5 pm today, so I could not get to them.  And they are moving.  Not sure how they'll react to an unexpected case of ammo (hopefully with my name on it--they know me).  Why would anyone ship ammo to them?  

rob

Where did that come from?

That looks like it will ban all online ammo sales

How did I miss that getting passed?

Nowhere do I interprete needing to transfer the ammo threw a dealer.

I'm not blaming you I'm honestly asking if you told them to do it or if they fucked up

Cabelas is delivering right to my home tomorrow.

I read it again carefully and don't see that the highlighted section about ammo dealers needing to be licensed by the State is new.  The notes don't show anything in the section being updated/amended in 2024.  The NEW shit about the dealer security and stuff goes into effect July 1, 2025.  

I replied to suggest they were misunderstanding this section and that it wasn't new and that one one else seems to interpret it the way they are.  Have not yet been able to speak with the dealer who has my ammo (probably).

rob

Quick reply from Locked and Loaded:

You are correct this change was made in 2023 to be effective in 2024. This law has been reviewed by the compliance department of the nation's largest distributor and they require that we ship to an WA FFL if it is ammo and it being purchased by WA resident. We process many orders daily with WA residents with no issue and they remain complaint. It is provided in our terms and conditions and again an FFL was required to purchase this ammo in the checkout process.

Being licensed to sell ammo in the state is not new.  I've had my FFL for 16 years now, and I've had to get the State License every year, which includes check boxes for "Pistol dealer", "firearms other than pistols" and "ammunition dealer."

What IS new, besides the bullshit regulations for FFLs passed this year, are the BULLSHIT requirements for "firearms industry members" that was passed in 2023, known as SSB5078.  Not to be confused with HB5078, which banned mags over 10 rounds....

https://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2023-24/Pdf/Bills/Session%20Laws/Senate/5078-S.SL.pdf#page=1


Read section 2,(f)(i) (ii) and (iii).  


So what does that all mean?  Well, subsection (iii) says that ANY entity engaged in the "firearm industry" has to abide by all laws, federal, state and local.  State laws to sell ammo, you have to have a license.  Section (i) also says you have exercise "reasonable controls" to prevent "Firerarms industry products" from getting into 'prohibited persons hands".  Ammo, and reloading supplies, are defined as "firearm industry products."

Combine all that bulslhit with a psychopath AG, and you have companies choosing 2 paths: 1.) Fuck WA, we aren't selling SHIT to anybody there, and 2.) Send it to an FFL and let them take all the liability.

I guess choice 3 is "FBF, we'll still send shit to you".  But given the activity in the "aggressive ban" thread, those companies are drying up....

Are you a dealer purchasing this ammo for resale? No? Then the statute doesn’t apply to you in any way, shape, or form.

If you were a dealer purchasing this ammo for resale, does it prohibit them from delivering it to you? Also no.

Yet another case of low IQ business owners consulting with low IQ lawyers.

Step 1: Report transaction as fraud.
Step 2: Order elsewhere.
Step 3: Name and shame anywhere and everywhere.
Step 4: Never give them another dime. Ever.

Per the above reply from them, they say "a major distributor" told them this and that they cannot sell ammo directly into WA.  It seems they take the RCW to mean since they don't have the WA licenses themselves, they cannot sell directly to WA residents.  They are missing or ignoring the part about wholesalers being exempt I guess.

They HAVE been one of my go-to sellers for high value items as their prices are generally good and they are not yet onboard with collecting King Inslee's taxes.

rob

No, but the online place is a “dealer”, and that statute could apply to them. I don’t see how you think that section doesn’t apply to this sale because the buyer is not a dealer.

WA’s statutes do not apply to entities outside of WA.

If this business were a dealer in WA, shipping to an FFL would have no bearing on whether or not they needed to be licensed.

If the business willingly shipped anywhere other than the shipping address provided by the customer without the customer’s express consent, they committed fraud. Plain and simple. There’s no exemption in fraud statutes for clinically retarded individuals, though one could be found not competent to stand trial.

But WA statutes DO apply to out of state entities that want to do business here. Why do think online places have to collect WA sales tax now?  Or if an FFL wants to ship a gun to an FFL in CA, that out of state FFL has to register with the CA DOJ and get approved before they can send the gun. You are mistaken to think that the laws passed in one state don’t affect out of state sellers. They most certainly do. How about the guy in Texas, that has not been to CA, but got “red flagged” out of CA and had his guns taken…in TEXAS!  Lots of examples of state laws applying to out of state businesses and individuals.

And lastly, on Locked & Loaded’s website, it says in their “store policies” section


So no, it isn’t “fraud”, they did exactly what their TOS said. Oh, you didn’t read it? (Not YOU specifically, generic “you”), who is at fault?  The buyer….

Because SCOTUS overturned a 30 year old decision to specifically allow it.

Cases such as that go all the way to SCOTUS because a state statute doesn’t apply outside its territorial borders. SCOTUS had to carve out an exception specifically for the sales tax issue relying on federal supremacy and interstate commerce authority because states are sovereign and not subject to the whims of other states without federal intervention. That’s kind of a founding principle of the USA.



Surface level, hyperbolic, media headline anecdotes.



If that’s the actual verbiage on their site… wow. It’s not even a logical sentence in relation to the idea they may be attempting to convey and would get laughed out of a courtroom.

In any case, there’s no WA statute stipulating that ammunition sales to consumers must be delivered to a FFL for subsequent retrieval by the customer, whether originating in or out of state, the claimed citation of the vendor has no relation to the action taken, and the vendor appears to be quite lacking in cognitive capability.

I just got my ammo order from SG ammo yesterday. They shipped it to my work address as always. And I don’t work at a FFL.

As a long time customer of L&L, no I didn't go and read their terms of service and shit when I placed the order.  And with the order info showing my preferred dealer and saying FIREARMS orders would ship there, I thought nothing of it until the ammo didn't show up at my home.

rob

Correct. The RCW is vague enough (aka, bad law) to make people misunderstand what is legal/illegal. Strictly by the RCW, only licensed (by WA) dealers can sell guns and ammo, after getting their FFL. So pay the $125 tax to WA, per activity, and sell w/o sending to FFL. Which is ridiculous itself. The RCW doesn't say you can sell ammo and then ship it to an FFL. It says you (dealers) can't sell it, period, in WA without the appropriate 'tax' of $125.

Some companies are uber-tight with following laws, even the big anti-2A ones. I ordered a bunch of Z9 mags from Shield Arms in MT and they cancelled the order because I lived in WA (at the time). The mag ban had just passed. I shoot them an email and say "Uh... this is a 9-round mag, not 10."

Now I don't have any problems.

The argument is they can apply that rule to the entity selling it to you, even if that entity is out of state. So now unless the outside entity gets a license to sell ammo from WA then they are in violation. Which adds up to the transfer has to be facilitated by someone WA has licensed.