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Posted: 5/12/2024 2:41:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: California_Kid]
It took more than more than 10 weeks, but it's here.  I have only skimmed it and don't have time to do an in-depth analysis, but here are a few key points:
  • Per the cover letter, there is no data for rifles or shotguns acquired before 1/1/2014 other than "AWs", .50 BMGs, and other voluntary registrations,
  • The record for the S&W AirLite .38 with an incorrect serial number that delayed my CCW permit for a month is still there, along with another acquisition with the correct serial number.  So, the state thinks I have acquired TWO guns of that make, model, and caliber, just as I predicted,
  • The record for the Springfield Armory 1911-A1 that I knew from the CCW process had an incorrect description is still incorrect,
  • Even on casual observation there are a lot of obvious errors, e.g. .45 caliber listed as .454, .357 listed as .375, etc.,
  • There is no information about the seller in private-party transfers,
  • It appears that guns sold are not always removed from the registry,
  • Information about sources is not always correct.  One gun that I bought brand-new, in box, unfired from an 01 FFL who happens to be a pawn broker shows as a private-party transfer (the man assured me that it was not a pawned gun, and I have no reason to doubt his word),
  • In total, fewer than 1/3 of the firearms that I actually own and keep in the state have any trace in the DoJ registry.
In summary, based on my quick review the database is a freakin' mess with a lot of missing and incorrect information.  I say this as a professional database engineer and administrator.  I could rant on for a long time about problems with input, review, error checking, etc. but I will save that for some other time.  I will have to think carefully about how to address any corrections, deletions, etc. that I might want.  Or I might just decide to say fook it all.  The data appears to be in a rather primitive format, unsophisticated.  If I had to guess what kind of system it's in, I would lean toward FoxPro, dBase, or maybe a desktop version of DB2.

The idea that has come up in the legislature of charging CA residents an annual registration fee for the privilege of keeping our firearms is a non-starter.  But I will probably never acquire another firearm in a manner that results in the state of California having any information about it, and if there is ever an annual registration fee requirement I will not pay a penny into it.

I'll do a more in-depth analysis when time permits.

Happy Mother's Day to all you mothers out there.
Link Posted: 5/12/2024 8:46:22 PM EDT
[#1]
Somehow, I'm not surprised.  On several levels.
Link Posted: 5/13/2024 1:18:45 PM EDT
[#2]
did they miss any guns you purchased since 2014 from FFLs?
Link Posted: 5/13/2024 1:25:34 PM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DonS:
did they miss any guns you purchased since 2014 from FFLs?
View Quote

Just a few that I bought in person, out of state, on my C&R FFL.  Plus maybe an FTF transfer or three done in CA.  I haven't had time to do a detailed inventory and probably won't for at least a couple of weeks.  I have a lot of family medical stuff going on.
Link Posted: 5/14/2024 1:21:08 AM EDT
[#4]
Your record is part of the DROS system. Garbage data in, garbage data out.

Your caliber, for example, is directly from the DROS entry screen. There is not an entry for each individual caliber, they are grouped by similar calibers.

Slightly incorrect entries and misspellings are probably clerical in nature on behalf of your FFL.

<2014 longgun stuff is not new. Your <1991 PPT handguns aren't on there, too. Those dates are reflections of increasing restrictions on private party transfers and non-handgun registration requirements.

Your PPT seller information is absolutely there, you are not privileged to receive it. Been that way for years, and is why your seller's PPT DROS copy looks different than your buyers PPT DROS copy. It used to be on the dealer to choose whether to include the other party's information, then it became a requirement that the information be redacted, then the DROS system itself spit out different seller and purchaser copies.

CCW entries are a little different than DROS entries. There is no standardized entry for the make/model/serial/caliber so the information can be more free-form. Is it "Springfield" or "Springfield Armory"? "Sig" or "Sig Sauer" or "JP Sauer & Sohns"? "40" or "40 S&W" or 9MM" or "9 Luger"? Depends on the information you put into your CCW application, and what the guy processing it did with the information when they sent it off to DOJ for your CLETS entry.
Link Posted: 5/14/2024 2:27:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: California_Kid] [#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By leelaw:
Your record is part of the DROS system. Garbage data in, garbage data out.

Your caliber, for example, is directly from the DROS entry screen. There is not an entry for each individual caliber, they are grouped by similar calibers.

Slightly incorrect entries and misspellings are probably clerical in nature on behalf of your FFL....
View Quote

Most of the bad data I've seen can be attributed to data entry errors by the 01 FFL folks who entered the data.  The documentation for the online DROS entry system is a PDF doc at https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/dros_entry_guide.pdf  

Calibers are in a pull-down list.  There's (I suspect) no edit to prevent someone from entering a record that makes no sense, such as a Smith & Wession AirLite pistol in caliber .375.

ETA the error that caused me the most inconvenience was an incorrect serial number.  That is a free-form text field.  Not even an edit to validate it against the manufacturer's serial number format.  (But things like that would require competent gubmint.......)
Link Posted: 5/14/2024 10:10:14 PM EDT
[#6]
Working through the CCW process, the guy asked if the firearms listed were already registered to me in California.  I told him yes but that I wasn't completely confident in the state records being completely accurate. He grinned a bit and didn't dispute it. It's a pretty clear requirement discussed a couple of places in the application process, etc.  That said, I'd expect more than a few try to list non-registered handguns.
Link Posted: 5/15/2024 11:42:07 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Featureless:
Working through the CCW process, the guy asked if the firearms listed were already registered to me in California.  I told him yes but that I wasn't completely confident in the state records being completely accurate. He grinned a bit and didn't dispute it. It's a pretty clear requirement discussed a couple of places in the application process, etc.  That said, I'd expect more than a few try to list non-registered handguns.
View Quote


It wasn't mandatory until SB2. Before then some IAs did not require it and unregistered firearms added to a permit effectively caused them to be registered to the permitholder.

Oddly, nothing I own that should be listed is actually listed, which I find really odd. One or two, sure, but not every handgun and post-2013 long gun I own. I am happy they don't know what I have, on the one hand, but on the other it will cause problems if my guns end up in LE custody for any reason or if I want a CCW permit. If I vol reg I fear I may draw unwanted attention to myself, although perhaps asking for the record and not having anything did that. Who knows?

My first handgun bought from an FFL, which I used in a defensive shooting a decade and a half ago, came up even back then as other than in my name. Really weird. Even the FFL said, "WTF?" when I called them about it after the cops ran the number and then seized it.
Link Posted: 5/16/2024 10:54:36 AM EDT
[#8]
Originally Posted By California_Kid:
It took more than more than 10 weeks, but it's here.  I have only skimmed it and don't have time to do an in-depth analysis, but here are a few key points:
  • Per the cover letter, there is no data for rifles or shotguns acquired before 1/1/2014 other than "AWs", .50 BMGs, and other voluntary registrations,
  • The record for the S&W AirLite .38 with an incorrect serial number that delayed my CCW permit for a month is still there, along with another acquisition with the correct serial number.  So, the state thinks I have acquired TWO guns of that make, model, and caliber, just as I predicted,
  • The record for the Springfield Armory 1911-A1 that I knew from the CCW process had an incorrect description is still incorrect,
  • Even on casual observation there are a lot of obvious errors, e.g. .45 caliber listed as .454, .357 listed as .375, etc.,
  • There is no information about the seller in private-party transfers,
  • It appears that guns sold are not always removed from the registry,
  • Information about sources is not always correct.  One gun that I bought brand-new, in box, unfired from an 01 FFL who happens to be a pawn broker shows as a private-party transfer (the man assured me that it was not a pawned gun, and I have no reason to doubt his word),
  • In total, fewer than 1/3 of the firearms that I actually own and keep in the state have any trace in the DoJ registry.
In summary, based on my quick review the database is a freakin' mess with a lot of missing and incorrect information.  I say this as a professional database engineer and administrator.  I could rant on for a long time about problems with input, review, error checking, etc. but I will save that for some other time.  I will have to think carefully about how to address any corrections, deletions, etc. that I might want.  Or I might just decide to say fook it all.  The data appears to be in a rather primitive format, unsophisticated.  If I had to guess what kind of system it's in, I would lean toward FoxPro, dBase, or maybe a desktop version of DB2.

The idea that has come up in the legislature of charging CA residents an annual registration fee for the privilege of keeping our firearms is a non-starter.  But I will probably never acquire another firearm in a manner that results in the state of California having any information about it, and if there is ever an annual registration fee requirement I will not pay a penny into it.

I'll do a more in-depth analysis when time permits.

Happy Mother's Day to all you mothers out there.
View Quote
They don't need to track the guns, they just need to track you. You're on the radar as a gun owner and they will always list you as one. If they go after you, they'll be loaded for bear.
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